You've misrpresented the past, you're misrepresenting the present... can the future be far off?
what is this Raf?
you know Raf I do not want to fight you , on it for two reason one you enjoy it where as I do not , two you have built up your own little audience and it outnumbers me in voice and frankly giving a solid crap.
quote:I don't think Jeff is here to attack. I don't think John Lynn would come here to attack. I DO think they would come here to draw attention to their own site in an indirect attempt at recruitment.
With all due respect to both, I don't even think it's an indirect attempt. It's direct.
"no not ban people from the net they can not do that that is what twi tried and failed"
Hmm, I think that many people are simply busy.
My wife does go onto the internet, but she does not come here to GS, she has no desire to debate and to dig up bad memorys of the past.
I get e-mails from CES, I have been on their website, I have attended some of their things.
They study what they can, they teach what they have studied, and they fellowship.
It is possible that there are other reasons, outside of 'banning' each other, why CES leaders dont post here. Or again perhaps you just dont recognize them when they do post here. Hmm.
Personally I would 'guess' it was because they are too busy studying G-d, worshipping Him, and living life with family.
I said your "history" was revisionist. I stand by that. You accused me of spin. That's fine, you're entitled to do so. Then you accused me of sugarcoating in order to keep people calm. BULL. Then you accuse me of buying their line "hook line and sinker." BULL. Everyone knows I have problems with CES and I've made no bones about that, but you accuse me of buying their line "hook line and sinker." You're either misinformed or lying. I've repeated this enough times to no longer believe you're misinformed, but I don't think you're deliberately lying. Forgetful, maybe. So let me remind you: I do not buy the CES line "hook line and sinker." And I'm tired of your false accusations to the contrary.
I've said good and bad about CES, but you only seem to fly off the handle when I say something good.
really I do not. but I think like everyone you believe what you know as truth .. and feel strongly about your opinion on it.
so do I Raf. I think they sugar coat things I KNOW they are good at it and the only information you have is what you have from them .
we have different eyes Raf. I see it differently it doesnt mean Im wrong or that your wrong it means you have not seen what I have yet. I get hurt in these disscussion because I know the pain you may face some day brother of mine truth hurts more than joining up let me say that.
I paid more dearly in CES than Twi because when I believed in the group I was unable to see it I went with both eyes open to CES.
I wanted to be part of CES I am a cult head . But God showed me alot Raf. and I had to see.
it is a humbling process to realize what a cult is. it takes awhile if ever bro.
What i've surmised about Victor Paul, I will invoke here as well: we don't see everything clearly enough, and know everything big enough to know whether these folks' motives are self righteous and pompous, thus being frauds.
Maybe you're confusing boldness, conviction and assuredness with self righteousness and pompous stubbornness?
At any rate, God is the ultimate searcher of hearts ... and I am glad they preach about Jesus Christ and Him crucified ...
twi got folks born again and saved many from a horrible life.
so they think . I read God gives the increase .
it is a club like all clubs with a mission and I give them no special kudos for it.
I do believe they have written some great stuff , I have some of it . I do believe they need people to pay their tutition and mission in life as well... they people please who they can .
I have issues with their Personal prophecy stuff and I saw many use the same IM holier than thou stuff I saw in the way, a good chuck of CES is way corps... so it falls to reason it would be so.
oldies - I devised a test to see whether or not Mark Graeser would lie to me. I told him it was a test before I presented it. I told him how the test would work. He knew it was a test. He went ahead and lied to me.
I don't think the boys at CES are evil or malicious. But they have decieved themselves, and they are deceiving others.
Love,
Steve
P.S. - CES publishes a list of ways in which they are different from TWI. It might do them some good to consider ways in which they are unconsciously STILL LIKE TWI. Their arrogance is a big one.
I claim not to give a crap but I do . CES is caught up in what is is and it is a off shoot of the way international.
Steve your killing me , and that is why im just ill now your so right they have no clue , I sometimes wish to God I didnt either.. you know?
at least in a cult they love ya man.
out here with nothing but the truth as I see it I feel like a fish out of water gasping for water but knowing the pond is full of poison .
let me tell ya Raf it is alot more comfy where you sit , I didnt chose this I would never. God is bigger than CES.
I know you Raf and you do look for the truth, the problem is you do not get so involved to see or feel it in CES and may never realize or it may not be your time .
I went back to TWi, after a decade , and I do not know why but I was suppose to learn and do something and did. Raf I make no judgement of you.
Perhaps my "distance" has skewed my judgment. Or at least made me less willing to exercise that judgment.
It is a lot more comfy where I sit. I send a check, I get tapes, a discount on books, and no hassles whatsoever. They've made no attempt to influence anything I've done on my web site (except when I asked for their assistance).
Yeah, maybe I'm too comfy. Maybe I've got a twice-bitten, thrice shy attitude about the whole thing. I get involved, but I keep it at arm's length. They don't control me, and they haven't tried to. When I'm uncomfortable, I say so, publicly (which is wrong: I should say it to them first). But I haven't even gotten reproof on that. They've been totally "live and let live" with me.
Too comfy: I think you may have me on that one.
And MJ: I know you're trying to sound a just warning. If I'm unkind in my challenge, forgive me, but the challenge is fair: warn people about what's really there, not about what you project is there based on your mistrust of them.
My deep concern with CES, which I've termed my "crisis of commitment" is based on a number of very real factors:
They excuse false prophecy, and would rather declare Jesus wrong than themselves. Both are a little more complicated than that, but if those two truths don't get people to think very, very carefully about their CES involvement, mentioning JAL's divorce will not.
Jal divorce was not the issue he was suspended from RAF. far from it they had been divorced for years at that point !
it was sexual crap concerning someone eles or several I do not know the details. and they did keep it hush hush till he was confronted. He was single at the time and had been divorced for years. you want to see heads roll metion JOHN S. the "well respected" lol divorce and the fact he also has admited to adultry while involved in twi!
hey Im not sitting in judgement but they sure are the pot calling the kettle black over there.
true enough we all have sin some of us just deny it more than others. haha
being in a cult has nothing what so ever to do with sin or even right or wrong it is about power control and having someone eles stick up for ya and save ya other than the Lord Jesus Christ.
I think the divorce is key to ex twi folks like me more than the PP or the other things they believe because that to me was the base line of his JUDGEMENT of the way international adultery and sexual misconduct was his rally call and then blam a few later as the money is rolling in with their kinder and gentler program of partners it was revealed .
.... me off. not because they did it but because of their platform and self righteousness when LCM did. John Lynn was one of LCM best friends Raf maybe you do not know that and Don fired his butt. it was polictical Raf and personal .
quote:Jal divorce was not the issue he was suspended from RAF. far from it they had been divorced for years at that point !
I didn't say it was the issue. You brought up the divorce, separately. Then you said he was "fired." You did not present those two issues as related. Neither did I.
I know what they said and the letters said sexual issues the one CES generated at the time and John Lynn apologized in and asked everyone to support CES in their decision to suspend him.
I do not need to know how many woman or men or the name of who eles was involved that is what I mean by details STEVE!
just calling it the way I see it .
Raf.
your right I do see what your saying and I guess your right I sound like a bitter person full of judgement when I speak of the CES problems concerning sexual and divorce when more important may be some of the doctrines and practices they hold.
Hi (((((((((Jeff)))))))))))) I'm glad you are happy in your choices you were one of the first friends I made on the Old WD site.
Have to be h9nest here and say I didn't read all the responses because one line of JL's letter stuck in my craw
quote: "In regard to your involvement in The Way , you could choose to be a victim, "
"
I can agree that your attitude after the fact makes the difference in whether you grow or wallow in self pity and I can agree you need to grow But what I cannot accept --will never accept is that children "chose to be victims"
Abuse never goes away by relegating it to the past behind a locked door. When I can hear rom JL and Company
""In regard to your involvement in The Way , you may have been a victim of abuse in some form or another..and we wish to help you overcome that horrendous phase in your life "
I might listen to some of what they say
BUt as long as they keep putting victims, even partially, in the position of somehow being responsible for the victimizer's actions we have nothing to talk about
Good reminder: we pretend we "know" each other because of postings on a message board. I don't really know you, MJ, and I have no right to call you paranoid or even bitter. I can give an impression of the posts, but it takes much more to get an impression of the poster. I don't think you're bitter. I think you have a sincere desire to warn people about an organization you consider, on some level, dangerous. (Maybe that word is too strong. Cultic).
I think there's a danger when we try to hold the actions or histories of "leaders" to a high standard. We want to call people out on their hypocrisy. We teach that marriage is a lifetime commitment, but we get a divorce? HYPOCRITES! (Hey, wait, that includes me!). We preach against lying, but we're caught in a lie? HYPOCRITES! (Hey, wait, that includes... everyone!) We preach that adultery is wrong, but we commit adultery? HYPOCRITES! (Hey, wait, that includes... more people than anyone in any church would like to admit).
Adultery is wrong. It's wrong if I commit it. It's wrong if I don't. If I commit adultery, I am exposed as a hypocrite. But the doctrine remains sound.
My problem with Wierwille and Martindale is not that they committed adultery (by reports and accounts, they did worse than that, but let's stick with adultery for the sake of this discussion). My problem with them is not that they committed adultery, it's that they excused it, doctrinally. It's one thing to preach against adultery and then commit it. That's a bad thing. But to not preach against adultery at all? Far worse. The error is compounded. No, you can't be accused of hypocrisy. But they can be accused of twisting the Word of God for their own selfish lusts.
I'd rather be convicted of sinning against God than be convicted of leading others, including myself, to sin against Him.
I don't know if John L or John S committed adultery. If they did, God have mercy on them and I pray they've resolved/repaired that sin in their lives. It's between them and God. But they can't be accused of leading others to do the same. At least, not now.
People, sinners, need room to grow. Not one of us is perfect.
That's why I bristle at criticism of JAL or JS that's based on the fact that they're divorced. They have my sympathy. I know what it's like. It hurts like hell. If they're anything like me, they condemned themselves far more than anyone else did or could.
Proving the charge of hypocrisy is, unfortunately, too easy. Every minister, every last one, is a sinner. All of them. All. Without exception or distinction. You want my list? No problem... but you first. :)-->
No one will convince CES followers to move away from the organization by pointing out the fact that JAL and JS are sinners. JAL and JS beat you to the punch: We all know they're sinners. We know more than we have to.
I think honest Christians should be far more troubled that, when they saw a conflict between the words of Christ and CES doctrine, they said the doctrine is right and Christ was wrong. They make an interesting case for this belief, but one muct ignore certain clear Biblical claims and mandates in order to accept the CES view on this. Jesus said he spoke the words His Father gave him. Jesus said he always does the will of the Father. If he was wrong about a prophecy, then he spoke presumptuously and was a false prophet. "He didn't know about the administration of the Mystery" is not an acceptable excuse, because it presumes that Jesus spoke important words presumptuously.
Every single person in CES should seriously consider the depth of that teaching. Are you willing to stand up and say "Jesus was wrong! Jesus spoke without checking with God first!"
I'm not.
I'd rather take the hits that come with not understanding every jot and tittle of the Bible than ever have the audacity to accuse my Lord of speaking presumptuously.
The comment "you could choose to be a victim" is presented in the letter solely in terms of how you're going to view yourself in the future: there is no implication that anyone chose to be a victim in the past.
I value your viewpoints and I value you as an internet buddy but you and I diagree here
the entire quote was
quote: In regard to your involvement in The Way , you could choose to be a victim, but may I suggest that is not the best perspective. Frederick Douglas, a former slave and then an abolitionist in the time of the Civil War, once said, "The limits of tyrants are prescribed by those whom they oppress." I like to look at my time in The Way in a more positive sense. I want to "eat the fish and spit out the bones."
JL clearly states that viewing your self as a victim is
quote: not the best perspective
and goes on to say
quote: ." I like to look at my time in The Way in a more positive sense
He is clearly referring to the past and wants usto Look at TWI in a more "POSITIVE" manner.
NOw just exactly how are my three kids, the oldest being ten when the involvement with TWI ended, supposed to view FIVE YEARS OF SEXUAL ABUSE by their father/stepfather and the TWig Coordinator in a "POsitive Manner"?!?!?!?
quote:I am more aware than most of the grievous abuses laid upon many of God’s precious people when they were in The Way . Perhaps you are one who was so abused. The point is that now the choice is yours as to how you see your past involvement in The Way. In our lives, we are not the sum total of what has happened to us, but rather how we have responded to what has happened. In that vein, "it’s never too late to have a happy childhood." What I mean by that is that you can ask the Lord to help you arrive at a healthy perspective of whatever happened to you. In his infinite resourcefulness, he can somehow turn it into something you can use to help someone else.
In regard to your involvement in The Way , you could choose to be a victim, but may I suggest that is not the best perspective...
Entirely looking at "where do you go from here?" Not at all blaming the victim for his/her role in getting abused.
quote:NOw just exactly how are my three kids, the oldest being ten when the involvement with TWI ended, supposed to view FIVE YEARS OF SEXUAL ABUSE by their father/stepfather and the Twig Coordinator in a "Positive Manner"?!?!?!?
You don't. But do you blame God for it? Or do you blame their father/stepfather? It's a perspective thing. I don't think (and I could be wrong) that JAL is saying you chose to be victims then.
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mj412
what is this Raf?
you know Raf I do not want to fight you , on it for two reason one you enjoy it where as I do not , two you have built up your own little audience and it outnumbers me in voice and frankly giving a solid crap.
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Raf
With all due respect to both, I don't even think it's an indirect attempt. It's direct.
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Raf
The rock solid truth, MJ.
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mj412
Steve
That is why I think CES is a stronger Cult than TWI in and of itself.
they have got years of practice of self righteous pompous mission for God on top of twi and frankly NO dream of anything better to do!!!
haha
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mj412
stop with the little quips to shut me up Raf.
you said I was the only one using personal attacks . what was that making you a liar ?
why are you making this out to be about me?
what is your motive?
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Galen
mj412:
"no not ban people from the net they can not do that that is what twi tried and failed"
Hmm, I think that many people are simply busy.
My wife does go onto the internet, but she does not come here to GS, she has no desire to debate and to dig up bad memorys of the past.
I get e-mails from CES, I have been on their website, I have attended some of their things.
They study what they can, they teach what they have studied, and they fellowship.
It is possible that there are other reasons, outside of 'banning' each other, why CES leaders dont post here. Or again perhaps you just dont recognize them when they do post here. Hmm.
Personally I would 'guess' it was because they are too busy studying G-d, worshipping Him, and living life with family.
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Raf
Who made this about you?
I said your "history" was revisionist. I stand by that. You accused me of spin. That's fine, you're entitled to do so. Then you accused me of sugarcoating in order to keep people calm. BULL. Then you accuse me of buying their line "hook line and sinker." BULL. Everyone knows I have problems with CES and I've made no bones about that, but you accuse me of buying their line "hook line and sinker." You're either misinformed or lying. I've repeated this enough times to no longer believe you're misinformed, but I don't think you're deliberately lying. Forgetful, maybe. So let me remind you: I do not buy the CES line "hook line and sinker." And I'm tired of your false accusations to the contrary.
I've said good and bad about CES, but you only seem to fly off the handle when I say something good.
Lighten up.
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Raf
P.S. I'm not trying to shut you up. I'm tired of that false accusation too.
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mj412
I do not think YOU sugar coat CES does.
really I do not. but I think like everyone you believe what you know as truth .. and feel strongly about your opinion on it.
so do I Raf. I think they sugar coat things I KNOW they are good at it and the only information you have is what you have from them .
we have different eyes Raf. I see it differently it doesnt mean Im wrong or that your wrong it means you have not seen what I have yet. I get hurt in these disscussion because I know the pain you may face some day brother of mine truth hurts more than joining up let me say that.
I paid more dearly in CES than Twi because when I believed in the group I was unable to see it I went with both eyes open to CES.
I wanted to be part of CES I am a cult head . But God showed me alot Raf. and I had to see.
it is a humbling process to realize what a cult is. it takes awhile if ever bro.
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oldiesman
Maybe you're confusing boldness, conviction and assuredness with self righteousness and pompous stubbornness?
At any rate, God is the ultimate searcher of hearts ... and I am glad they preach about Jesus Christ and Him crucified ...
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Raf
Well, I apologize for misunderstanding you, MJ.
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mj412
yes old
twi got folks born again and saved many from a horrible life.
so they think . I read God gives the increase .
it is a club like all clubs with a mission and I give them no special kudos for it.
I do believe they have written some great stuff , I have some of it . I do believe they need people to pay their tutition and mission in life as well... they people please who they can .
I have issues with their Personal prophecy stuff and I saw many use the same IM holier than thou stuff I saw in the way, a good chuck of CES is way corps... so it falls to reason it would be so.
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Steve Lortz
oldies - I devised a test to see whether or not Mark Graeser would lie to me. I told him it was a test before I presented it. I told him how the test would work. He knew it was a test. He went ahead and lied to me.
I don't think the boys at CES are evil or malicious. But they have decieved themselves, and they are deceiving others.
Love,
Steve
P.S. - CES publishes a list of ways in which they are different from TWI. It might do them some good to consider ways in which they are unconsciously STILL LIKE TWI. Their arrogance is a big one.
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mj412
why is this bothering me?
I claim not to give a crap but I do . CES is caught up in what is is and it is a off shoot of the way international.
Steve your killing me , and that is why im just ill now your so right they have no clue , I sometimes wish to God I didnt either.. you know?
at least in a cult they love ya man.
out here with nothing but the truth as I see it I feel like a fish out of water gasping for water but knowing the pond is full of poison .
let me tell ya Raf it is alot more comfy where you sit , I didnt chose this I would never. God is bigger than CES.
I know you Raf and you do look for the truth, the problem is you do not get so involved to see or feel it in CES and may never realize or it may not be your time .
I went back to TWi, after a decade , and I do not know why but I was suppose to learn and do something and did. Raf I make no judgement of you.
CES I do. but I honesty wish I didnt have to .
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Raf
Perhaps my "distance" has skewed my judgment. Or at least made me less willing to exercise that judgment.
It is a lot more comfy where I sit. I send a check, I get tapes, a discount on books, and no hassles whatsoever. They've made no attempt to influence anything I've done on my web site (except when I asked for their assistance).
Yeah, maybe I'm too comfy. Maybe I've got a twice-bitten, thrice shy attitude about the whole thing. I get involved, but I keep it at arm's length. They don't control me, and they haven't tried to. When I'm uncomfortable, I say so, publicly (which is wrong: I should say it to them first). But I haven't even gotten reproof on that. They've been totally "live and let live" with me.
Too comfy: I think you may have me on that one.
And MJ: I know you're trying to sound a just warning. If I'm unkind in my challenge, forgive me, but the challenge is fair: warn people about what's really there, not about what you project is there based on your mistrust of them.
My deep concern with CES, which I've termed my "crisis of commitment" is based on a number of very real factors:
They excuse false prophecy, and would rather declare Jesus wrong than themselves. Both are a little more complicated than that, but if those two truths don't get people to think very, very carefully about their CES involvement, mentioning JAL's divorce will not.
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mj412
Jal divorce was not the issue he was suspended from RAF. far from it they had been divorced for years at that point !
it was sexual crap concerning someone eles or several I do not know the details. and they did keep it hush hush till he was confronted. He was single at the time and had been divorced for years. you want to see heads roll metion JOHN S. the "well respected" lol divorce and the fact he also has admited to adultry while involved in twi!
hey Im not sitting in judgement but they sure are the pot calling the kettle black over there.
true enough we all have sin some of us just deny it more than others. haha
being in a cult has nothing what so ever to do with sin or even right or wrong it is about power control and having someone eles stick up for ya and save ya other than the Lord Jesus Christ.
I think the divorce is key to ex twi folks like me more than the PP or the other things they believe because that to me was the base line of his JUDGEMENT of the way international adultery and sexual misconduct was his rally call and then blam a few later as the money is rolling in with their kinder and gentler program of partners it was revealed .
.... me off. not because they did it but because of their platform and self righteousness when LCM did. John Lynn was one of LCM best friends Raf maybe you do not know that and Don fired his butt. it was polictical Raf and personal .
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Steve!
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Raf
I didn't say it was the issue. You brought up the divorce, separately. Then you said he was "fired." You did not present those two issues as related. Neither did I.
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mj412
I know what they said and the letters said sexual issues the one CES generated at the time and John Lynn apologized in and asked everyone to support CES in their decision to suspend him.
I do not need to know how many woman or men or the name of who eles was involved that is what I mean by details STEVE!
just calling it the way I see it .
Raf.
your right I do see what your saying and I guess your right I sound like a bitter person full of judgement when I speak of the CES problems concerning sexual and divorce when more important may be some of the doctrines and practices they hold.
thanks.
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templelady
Hi (((((((((Jeff)))))))))))) I'm glad you are happy in your choices you were one of the first friends I made on the Old WD site.
Have to be h9nest here and say I didn't read all the responses because one line of JL's letter stuck in my craw
"I can agree that your attitude after the fact makes the difference in whether you grow or wallow in self pity and I can agree you need to grow But what I cannot accept --will never accept is that children "chose to be victims"
Abuse never goes away by relegating it to the past behind a locked door. When I can hear rom JL and Company
""In regard to your involvement in The Way , you may have been a victim of abuse in some form or another..and we wish to help you overcome that horrendous phase in your life "
I might listen to some of what they say
BUt as long as they keep putting victims, even partially, in the position of somehow being responsible for the victimizer's actions we have nothing to talk about
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Raf
Good reminder: we pretend we "know" each other because of postings on a message board. I don't really know you, MJ, and I have no right to call you paranoid or even bitter. I can give an impression of the posts, but it takes much more to get an impression of the poster. I don't think you're bitter. I think you have a sincere desire to warn people about an organization you consider, on some level, dangerous. (Maybe that word is too strong. Cultic).
I think there's a danger when we try to hold the actions or histories of "leaders" to a high standard. We want to call people out on their hypocrisy. We teach that marriage is a lifetime commitment, but we get a divorce? HYPOCRITES! (Hey, wait, that includes me!). We preach against lying, but we're caught in a lie? HYPOCRITES! (Hey, wait, that includes... everyone!) We preach that adultery is wrong, but we commit adultery? HYPOCRITES! (Hey, wait, that includes... more people than anyone in any church would like to admit).
Adultery is wrong. It's wrong if I commit it. It's wrong if I don't. If I commit adultery, I am exposed as a hypocrite. But the doctrine remains sound.
My problem with Wierwille and Martindale is not that they committed adultery (by reports and accounts, they did worse than that, but let's stick with adultery for the sake of this discussion). My problem with them is not that they committed adultery, it's that they excused it, doctrinally. It's one thing to preach against adultery and then commit it. That's a bad thing. But to not preach against adultery at all? Far worse. The error is compounded. No, you can't be accused of hypocrisy. But they can be accused of twisting the Word of God for their own selfish lusts.
I'd rather be convicted of sinning against God than be convicted of leading others, including myself, to sin against Him.
I don't know if John L or John S committed adultery. If they did, God have mercy on them and I pray they've resolved/repaired that sin in their lives. It's between them and God. But they can't be accused of leading others to do the same. At least, not now.
People, sinners, need room to grow. Not one of us is perfect.
That's why I bristle at criticism of JAL or JS that's based on the fact that they're divorced. They have my sympathy. I know what it's like. It hurts like hell. If they're anything like me, they condemned themselves far more than anyone else did or could.
Proving the charge of hypocrisy is, unfortunately, too easy. Every minister, every last one, is a sinner. All of them. All. Without exception or distinction. You want my list? No problem... but you first.
:)-->
No one will convince CES followers to move away from the organization by pointing out the fact that JAL and JS are sinners. JAL and JS beat you to the punch: We all know they're sinners. We know more than we have to.
I think honest Christians should be far more troubled that, when they saw a conflict between the words of Christ and CES doctrine, they said the doctrine is right and Christ was wrong. They make an interesting case for this belief, but one muct ignore certain clear Biblical claims and mandates in order to accept the CES view on this. Jesus said he spoke the words His Father gave him. Jesus said he always does the will of the Father. If he was wrong about a prophecy, then he spoke presumptuously and was a false prophet. "He didn't know about the administration of the Mystery" is not an acceptable excuse, because it presumes that Jesus spoke important words presumptuously.
Every single person in CES should seriously consider the depth of that teaching. Are you willing to stand up and say "Jesus was wrong! Jesus spoke without checking with God first!"
I'm not.
I'd rather take the hits that come with not understanding every jot and tittle of the Bible than ever have the audacity to accuse my Lord of speaking presumptuously.
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Raf
MO,
The comment "you could choose to be a victim" is presented in the letter solely in terms of how you're going to view yourself in the future: there is no implication that anyone chose to be a victim in the past.
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templelady
Raf,
I value your viewpoints and I value you as an internet buddy but you and I diagree here
the entire quote was
JL clearly states that viewing your self as a victim is
and goes on to say
He is clearly referring to the past and wants usto Look at TWI in a more "POSITIVE" manner.
NOw just exactly how are my three kids, the oldest being ten when the involvement with TWI ended, supposed to view FIVE YEARS OF SEXUAL ABUSE by their father/stepfather and the TWig Coordinator in a "POsitive Manner"?!?!?!?
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Raf
Actually, the entire quote is...
Entirely looking at "where do you go from here?" Not at all blaming the victim for his/her role in getting abused.
You don't. But do you blame God for it? Or do you blame their father/stepfather? It's a perspective thing. I don't think (and I could be wrong) that JAL is saying you chose to be victims then.
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