I'm curious: did "Momentus" offer a certain, "theraputic" appeal particularly to ex-corpse and leadership people?
Perhaps ex-corpse folks required an emotional whipping or "shock" of some kind to help undo or counter-balance 4 years of the high intensity Way garbage? I dunno. Just wondering.
When I received some Momentus stuff in the mail years ago (no less, from someone in NY I didn't even know), the "look-what-the-class-did-for-us-and-it-can-do-for-you" promos and the "don't-blame-us-and sue-us-if-we-screw-you-up" form was enough to compel me to keep my distance.
"Hey, if our class screws you up, you can't sue us, okay?"
To answer your points, I'm not saying there is anything WRONG with starting your own group. In fact, I'm very much in favor of it if that is what the Lord has told you to do. What I'm against is his defamation of other ministers who won't join up with him and his attitude, in general, that he needs to "warn" all of the ex-wafers when someone disagrees with him doctrinally. Slander is not right and it is none of his business if certain ministers disagree with him in any aspect of the Bible.
As far as his repenting of his sins, that was the right thing to do. So, that does not mean he should get a pat on the back for doing the right thing which he ought to have done years earlier, does it? As A Christian minister of the Lord, there are certain "givens" that should never even be spoken of or even thought about and commiting habitual adultry is one of them.
What I'm saying, is if he has truly turned from his own sins, then he should know that everyone does not always get EVERYTHING exactly RIGHT all of the time and have enough humility in his own heart to not then turn around and slander other ministers because of differences of theology (not sin).
They stand or fall before their own master, the Lord Jesus Christ, not HIM. And it is not John's responsibility to "straighten everyone out." That's the Holy Spirit's job. Besides, slander isn't straightening anyone out, anyway.
From what I've seen, he's the same 'ole cute personality, do what I say, bow down to me, John.
that is a very difficult concept for christians to grap to stand or fall alone .
twi used people as pawns to make money and hold power over one another because they enjoy the feeling of being the one who "ministers" to another.
I think people want it as well need it even because the idea of lesser and greater mind for christ is the base line of all these teachers and their sales.
then the personal prophecy got even more intimate and in your face about who knows what about whom,and when also claiming to be from god geeez so complicated. to much work I say .
I love my friends and family but at days end it is my maker I must speak to about my comlete pictures in life He is the only one who knows it all togeher without the impressions and feelings and stress of my other relationships so in a sense it is just me and God. I have very close friends but Jesus christ really is the one true friend I am learning knows me better than my own self.
quote:What I'm against is his defamation of other ministers who won't join up with him and his attitude, in general, that he needs to "warn" all of the ex-wafers when someone disagrees with him doctrinally. Slander is not right and it is none of his business if certain ministers disagree with him in any aspect of the Bible.
quote: But isn't this true of virtually all religions?
IMO, no, but possibly the majority.
quote:And virtually everyone? Everyone is right in their own eyes ...
disagree there too. Niether of us can speak for everyone. I know that I do not think I an "right" everytime i open my mouth with an opinion. But that is just me. Maybe you do. From what I have seen on this board I think you do, which could be why you make such a statement.
I think this is a healthy thing to do.....Assume you are wrong at times, guess, question everything, including yourself. Or at least consider the possibility that you could be wrong.
Although, I could be wrong. ;)--> You can continue thinking your always right. Won't change much, but not everyone wants to change.
Jeff USAF etc, - I really have to wonder why you occassionally post stale CES material at Greasespot. The principals of CES will NEVER engage us in open dialogue here. They even refused to engage in open dialogue on their own website's "Dialogue Board".
When they realized they couldn't control the content, and people were raising questions and concerns they couldn't honestly answer, they shut down the "Dialogue Board".
They publish a list of X+1 reasons why they are different from TWI, yet the leaders are always right, don't bother trying to correct any errors. John, John and Mark may sit there politely and "hear" what you have to say, but they don't listen.
In the early days, before they had published much of anything, they were open to new ideas. But once they started printing, recording and selling, their doctrines became set in stone.
They will never reverse a major position with anywhere near as much fanfare as they originally announced it. John Lynn wrote that Momentus was "the greatest thing since the new birth!" They respond to the discovery of error with rationalization. If that doesn't work, they resort to benign neglect and hope their followers don't notice.
It's true, John, John and Mark have renounced their former licentiousness. But their response has been legalistic. They come up with a believer's code of conduct, a list of ten articles which mirror the ten commandments remarkably. It seems that every article begins with the words 'I will...".
Hmmmmmm... wasn't there somebody in the Old Testament who used to talk like that?
CES may be kinder and gentler than TWI, but it's just as dishonest.
And unfortunately, I DON'T think it's because of any deliberate maliciousness on the part of John, John and Mark. They are just unconscious of it.
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. Who can know it?
The Word of God is... the critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Because John, John and Mark place the thoughts and intents of their hearts above the Word of God, by "rightly dividing" it, they have no critic, and their hearts deceive them.
quote:They publish a list of X+1 reasons why they are different from TWI, yet the leaders are always right, don't bother trying to correct any errors. John, John and Mark may sit there politely and "hear" what you have to say, but they don't listen.
Steve, you keep on harping on this but may I suggest this again: virtually all religions, and all peoples, act like they know it all (or know what's correct) and are not prone to change (except Lindyhopper) ;)-->
Try it for yourself. Go talk to leaders of an organization, a group with definite principles, teachings, edicts, etc., and see if they change when confronted with opposing/divergent information. Good luck! It's that way all over, bro.
quote:The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. Who can know it?
Just because folks may believe something different than you or I, and will not (or are not inclined easily to) move from that position, doesn't make their heart deceitful and wicked.
and so what if all religions are the same ? does that mean what he says isn't so ? (i mean more about momentus and ces leaders not listening to anyone else)
really, om, what a pathetic crock of an excuse. Who gives a dozen rodent *anal-sphincters* what everybody does??? what does that have to do with the evasions and deceits of J, M and J???
you are the obtuse award winner for about the 2 dozenth time...the current GSC champeen...
I think what Steve says is pretty common, so why dump on CES? Don't you think it's pretty much human nature for leaders to stick with certain principles and tend to be loyal to those principles?
I think what Steve is saying is pretty much correct. But, why dump on John Lynn because he's not prone to change from his positions?
I don't see or know of any bastions of objectivity, do you?
jeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, om --- talk about makin my point...
CUZ JAL and company, CES, CLAIM they have straightened out twi-t's errors and are back on track for the "One True God"....or haven't you been paying attention...nah, don't tell me. That's why you ALWAYs win.... --> --> --> -->
Don'tFenceMeIn...You make your point well. I don't disagree with anything you said...in fact, it's the "we're right and everybody else is wrong" attitude that turns me off the most...it a carry over from twi. That attitude makes no sense to me at all, it's when you get caught up with "intellectualizing" God instead of experiencing God...then, the ego gets involved and presto!...religion at it's finest.
I also agree that it's inappropriate for a Christian minister to slander another minister over a doctrinal issue. Lcm made a career out of doing that. I don't think that JAL is the only extwi leader to be guilty of that. I guess it shows how deeply rooted this notion was implanted by both Veepee and lcm. That's why I don't associate with any splinter groups.
They act as if you believe differently than they do, you are worthy of, if not contempt, then certainly pity...you are somehow not quite as spiritual as they are. I often wonder how the first century Christians managed to do the things they did, without the benefit of the new testament to "rightly divide"...or without a non-profit corporate structure that provides a "safe haven" for your tithes and an alternative to having to think for yourself.
The fact that I acknowledged that JAL was a benefit to many wayfers, in terms of accurate information of twi corruption...should not be confused as an endorsement for his splinter group. As DFMI stated, "...everyone does not always get everything exactly right all of the time..." I would take it a step further and say that NOBODY always gets everything exactly right all of the time. This, of course, would include any individual or organization such as CES, Jehova witnesses, the catholic church, or the glee club. It's the self righteous, arrogant attitudes of those who claim to have superior knowledge, that annoys those of us who really do.
look, there were times i spent with john where i felt he was a really decent human being and i liked him. maybe he should just focus on the human being thing and forget the leadership thing.... same with the rest of that outfit
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excathedra
ralphie boy got a job
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alfakat
oh, I knew that, excie -- I was replying to uh and the thinking that JAL was the ONLY guy out there... re-read uh's last post and you will see...
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excathedra
i see alfie. ralph did travel all around and was not starting another wayferzone, was he?
and then he went and got a REAL job, imagine that
;)-->
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TheInvisibleDan
I'm curious: did "Momentus" offer a certain, "theraputic" appeal particularly to ex-corpse and leadership people?
Perhaps ex-corpse folks required an emotional whipping or "shock" of some kind to help undo or counter-balance 4 years of the high intensity Way garbage? I dunno. Just wondering.
When I received some Momentus stuff in the mail years ago (no less, from someone in NY I didn't even know), the "look-what-the-class-did-for-us-and-it-can-do-for-you" promos and the "don't-blame-us-and sue-us-if-we-screw-you-up" form was enough to compel me to keep my distance.
"Hey, if our class screws you up, you can't sue us, okay?"
Riiiight....
Danny
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Don'tFenceMeIn
UH,
To answer your points, I'm not saying there is anything WRONG with starting your own group. In fact, I'm very much in favor of it if that is what the Lord has told you to do. What I'm against is his defamation of other ministers who won't join up with him and his attitude, in general, that he needs to "warn" all of the ex-wafers when someone disagrees with him doctrinally. Slander is not right and it is none of his business if certain ministers disagree with him in any aspect of the Bible.
As far as his repenting of his sins, that was the right thing to do. So, that does not mean he should get a pat on the back for doing the right thing which he ought to have done years earlier, does it? As A Christian minister of the Lord, there are certain "givens" that should never even be spoken of or even thought about and commiting habitual adultry is one of them.
What I'm saying, is if he has truly turned from his own sins, then he should know that everyone does not always get EVERYTHING exactly RIGHT all of the time and have enough humility in his own heart to not then turn around and slander other ministers because of differences of theology (not sin).
They stand or fall before their own master, the Lord Jesus Christ, not HIM. And it is not John's responsibility to "straighten everyone out." That's the Holy Spirit's job. Besides, slander isn't straightening anyone out, anyway.
From what I've seen, he's the same 'ole cute personality, do what I say, bow down to me, John.
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alfakat
dontfenceme... that nails it.
why some just cannot seem to grasp that we all either stand or fall on our own, I will never understand...
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Don'tFenceMeIn
Thanks, bro.
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mj412
that is a very difficult concept for christians to grap to stand or fall alone .
twi used people as pawns to make money and hold power over one another because they enjoy the feeling of being the one who "ministers" to another.
I think people want it as well need it even because the idea of lesser and greater mind for christ is the base line of all these teachers and their sales.
then the personal prophecy got even more intimate and in your face about who knows what about whom,and when also claiming to be from god geeez so complicated. to much work I say .
I love my friends and family but at days end it is my maker I must speak to about my comlete pictures in life He is the only one who knows it all togeher without the impressions and feelings and stress of my other relationships so in a sense it is just me and God. I have very close friends but Jesus christ really is the one true friend I am learning knows me better than my own self.
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oldiesman
And virtually everyone?
Everyone is right in their own eyes ...
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lindyhopper
oldies
IMO, no, but possibly the majority.
disagree there too. Niether of us can speak for everyone. I know that I do not think I an "right" everytime i open my mouth with an opinion. But that is just me. Maybe you do. From what I have seen on this board I think you do, which could be why you make such a statement.
I think this is a healthy thing to do.....Assume you are wrong at times, guess, question everything, including yourself. Or at least consider the possibility that you could be wrong.
Although, I could be wrong.
;)--> You can continue thinking your always right. Won't change much, but not everyone wants to change.
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Steve Lortz
Jeff USAF etc, - I really have to wonder why you occassionally post stale CES material at Greasespot. The principals of CES will NEVER engage us in open dialogue here. They even refused to engage in open dialogue on their own website's "Dialogue Board".
When they realized they couldn't control the content, and people were raising questions and concerns they couldn't honestly answer, they shut down the "Dialogue Board".
They publish a list of X+1 reasons why they are different from TWI, yet the leaders are always right, don't bother trying to correct any errors. John, John and Mark may sit there politely and "hear" what you have to say, but they don't listen.
In the early days, before they had published much of anything, they were open to new ideas. But once they started printing, recording and selling, their doctrines became set in stone.
They will never reverse a major position with anywhere near as much fanfare as they originally announced it. John Lynn wrote that Momentus was "the greatest thing since the new birth!" They respond to the discovery of error with rationalization. If that doesn't work, they resort to benign neglect and hope their followers don't notice.
It's true, John, John and Mark have renounced their former licentiousness. But their response has been legalistic. They come up with a believer's code of conduct, a list of ten articles which mirror the ten commandments remarkably. It seems that every article begins with the words 'I will...".
Hmmmmmm... wasn't there somebody in the Old Testament who used to talk like that?
CES may be kinder and gentler than TWI, but it's just as dishonest.
And unfortunately, I DON'T think it's because of any deliberate maliciousness on the part of John, John and Mark. They are just unconscious of it.
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. Who can know it?
The Word of God is... the critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Because John, John and Mark place the thoughts and intents of their hearts above the Word of God, by "rightly dividing" it, they have no critic, and their hearts deceive them.
I love them. I wish they would repent.
Love,
Steve
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excathedra
the gentleness of momentus leads a man to repent
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oldiesman
Steve, you keep on harping on this but may I suggest this again: virtually all religions, and all peoples, act like they know it all (or know what's correct) and are not prone to change (except Lindyhopper)
;)-->
Try it for yourself. Go talk to leaders of an organization, a group with definite principles, teachings, edicts, etc., and see if they change when confronted with opposing/divergent information. Good luck! It's that way all over, bro.
Just because folks may believe something different than you or I, and will not (or are not inclined easily to) move from that position, doesn't make their heart deceitful and wicked.Link to comment
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excathedra
it sounds like Steve is speaking from experience
and so what if all religions are the same ? does that mean what he says isn't so ? (i mean more about momentus and ces leaders not listening to anyone else)
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alfakat
really, om, what a pathetic crock of an excuse. Who gives a dozen rodent *anal-sphincters* what everybody does??? what does that have to do with the evasions and deceits of J, M and J???
you are the obtuse award winner for about the 2 dozenth time...the current GSC champeen...
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oldiesman
I think what Steve says is pretty common, so why dump on CES? Don't you think it's pretty much human nature for leaders to stick with certain principles and tend to be loyal to those principles?
I think what Steve is saying is pretty much correct. But, why dump on John Lynn because he's not prone to change from his positions?
I don't see or know of any bastions of objectivity, do you?
Have a great weekend!
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alfakat
jeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, om --- talk about makin my point...
CUZ JAL and company, CES, CLAIM they have straightened out twi-t's errors and are back on track for the "One True God"....or haven't you been paying attention...nah, don't tell me. That's why you ALWAYs win....
--> 
--> 
--> 
-->
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GrouchoMarxJr
Don'tFenceMeIn...You make your point well. I don't disagree with anything you said...in fact, it's the "we're right and everybody else is wrong" attitude that turns me off the most...it a carry over from twi. That attitude makes no sense to me at all, it's when you get caught up with "intellectualizing" God instead of experiencing God...then, the ego gets involved and presto!...religion at it's finest.
I also agree that it's inappropriate for a Christian minister to slander another minister over a doctrinal issue. Lcm made a career out of doing that. I don't think that JAL is the only extwi leader to be guilty of that. I guess it shows how deeply rooted this notion was implanted by both Veepee and lcm. That's why I don't associate with any splinter groups.
They act as if you believe differently than they do, you are worthy of, if not contempt, then certainly pity...you are somehow not quite as spiritual as they are. I often wonder how the first century Christians managed to do the things they did, without the benefit of the new testament to "rightly divide"...or without a non-profit corporate structure that provides a "safe haven" for your tithes and an alternative to having to think for yourself.
The fact that I acknowledged that JAL was a benefit to many wayfers, in terms of accurate information of twi corruption...should not be confused as an endorsement for his splinter group. As DFMI stated, "...everyone does not always get everything exactly right all of the time..." I would take it a step further and say that NOBODY always gets everything exactly right all of the time. This, of course, would include any individual or organization such as CES, Jehova witnesses, the catholic church, or the glee club. It's the self righteous, arrogant attitudes of those who claim to have superior knowledge, that annoys those of us who really do.
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Steve Lortz
"It's the self righteous, arrogant attitudes of those who claim to have superior knowledge, that annoys those of us who really do."
Amen... and Amen, UncleHairy!
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
Arrogance...
That's what we learned in TWI. And that's what some of us are still unconscious of...
Love,
Steve
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excathedra
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Steve Lortz
excathedra - ...have superior knowledge :-)
Love,
Steve
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excathedra
ohhhhhhhhhh he made a funny
:)-->
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excathedra
look, there were times i spent with john where i felt he was a really decent human being and i liked him. maybe he should just focus on the human being thing and forget the leadership thing.... same with the rest of that outfit
but what would GOD'S PEOPLE DO ????????????
.
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