Oh geeze, I'm a day late and a dollar short. :)--> as usual.
Not that I feel like I have to defend anybody here, JAL included, but it strikes me as pretty interesting that all the most outspoken peeps against Momentous, were never there. :)-->
Been there, done that, and it ain't what people say it is. And as a matter of fact, Momentous is not that notable a thing in certain circles. What makes it so "momentous" is that it was a new thing among ex-cultists, exway cultists, to be exact.
JAL is a personal friend of mine, for many years, and all I have to say is that he has been there for me, for a couple of decades. I understand that many have a different experience of him. All I can say is, he answers his email. If you have something to work out with him, or want to know more about what he's doing now, or where he is in his life, talk to him.
It's difficult for me, to see a dear friend talked about here. As much as I've come to know and love many posters here, makes it all the more difficult.
Momentous didn't hurt me or my husband. I did my homework before I went, and knew what I was in for, and understood the "philosophy" and "psycology" behind it. If others didn't, well I'm sorry for their pain. :(-->
It ain't nothing new, and has been very effective with helping people overcome obstacles in their lives. But it's like the old lightbulb joke, "How does a psycologist change a lightbulb?" Well, first the lightbulb has to want to be changed.
I don't know...I just really don't care for the lines that take the assumption that we don't really "know" Jesus Christ. I guess my radar goes off when someone starts making all these assumptions. Plus, just because you vent, doesn't mean you are still acting the victim. Seems to me like most of us here are doing pretty good in life.
I don't know. I am not acquainted with JAL, but it seems most of these guys are always acting like they need to fix us. I would take them a little more seriously if they didn't come off acting like they have it so together & we don't.
Nope, ex10, didn't take it. After I spoke to people who had and did, couple who were involved in it's "early days" and held on till it blew out of town, I decided it wasn't for us. At the time I figured I didn't need to swallow a can of nails to find out for myself what it would feel like. Then I heard about Dan Tochini from some ex-Way sources and figured well, go figure. There must be some cosmic joke here - in one orifice and out another, what goes around comes around. I agree with you though, it's just one very small can of cheese in a very big dairy.
But then several folks like yourself have said it was useful and helpful. Just goes to show I guess.
As for the JALster, I shouldn't kick a guy when he's down, or on the way up, or sitting pretty. I'm sure he would give a ratz hiney either way. But as always, I wish him well, he deserves it as much as anyone.
For those who missed JALs time in TWI, could someone fill in the history? I came to TWI after he left. TWI leadership talked about him as if he were Satan himself. Then his name just got erased like so many others.
I know John Lynn from his Limb Coordinator days in New York.
On my second WOW year (1979-80), I was sent to Little Rock, AR. Early on, I was having big big doubts about it. In fact, the second week there, I was contemplating leaving. I called my TC back in New York, and he consoled me, and after the discussion he said it was ok with him if I returned to NY and everything will be ok.
I called John Lynn, and told him my misgivings about staying in AR. "I spoke with my TC and will probably be coming back to NY".
"What?" John said... "I don't want you back here!"...
Then John asked "Who's your twig coordinator?"
I said "well, I don't want to tell you because then he'll get in trouble" :D-->
I'm so glad I didn't tell him. ...
But John Lynn helped me see that it was wrong to leave the field after I had made the commitment, so I'm glad for the tough love. I thought he was a funny guy but also had a lot of love mixed in.
For those who missed JALs time in TWI, could someone fill in the history? I came to TWI after he left. TWI leadership talked about him as if he were Satan himself. Then his name just got erased like so many others.
Here's the short version.
JAL was a higher-up and inner-circle fellow who, like a few
others who had held top positions, left twi a few years after
lcm became the mogfot and, apparently, they struck sparks and
were unable to work together. They knew where a lot of the
bodies were buried, so to speak, and they left around the same
time Schoenheit's paper on Adultery (check the GSC documents)
was circulating and being called possessed or some dumb thing like
that.
JAL was one of a VERY few who wrote books released by American
Christian Press. He wrote "Will The Real You Please Stand Up?"
"Will The Real You Please Remain Standing?" and "Living In the
Eye of the Storm."
Somebody who knew him longer can fill in more details than that.
Thanks for the info on JAL. Obviously, I have no opinion about him, Momentous or anything else mentioned as I never met the man. In a twisted way, that LCM hated him moves him up a notch in my book. :-)
Are JAL's books still available somewhere? I have heard of them but they had been yanked from TWI's bookstore by the time I got there. Some folks still had them until King Loy mandated they be tossed. Heard they were good reading.
JAL spent one year in residence and was known as recognized corps. I think he had been limb leader of Indiana before that.
He later became Northeast Region Leader, and New York limb leader. One thing to remember is that he was always center stage, main stage.
When LCM left Emporia and went to headquarters JAL left New York and started being *the* corps coordinator, I think he began this when the 10th was in residence.
For a period he traveled on TWI’s nickle and preached all the evils of TWI, maybe just a short time, but kind of strange he did. I saw him recruiting at a ROA, walking around with no name tag yet looking for WC name tags and having nice conversations with the *properly* tagged people........
Although I don't agree with everything that John has done or is doing since he left twi, one thing is for certain. Back in about 1987 or thereabouts, when most of the twi leadership was scrambling to cover their a$$es, John stood up and did the right thing. If I remember correctly, at the infamous "clergy meeting" when Geer was doing his nazi thing...only three clergy had the guts to stand up and walk out...John was one of them. John was also there to help people and give them answers when the rest of twi's "leadership" disapeared into the woodwork. John's not a bad guy really, just full of himself a little but he means well.
There were a lot of things about twi that JAL carried over into CES...his save the baby but dump the crappy water schpeil illustrates that. I really did check out CES when I first got out of twi (before I regained my senses), it seems like twi without the hierarchy breathing down your neck. A "kinder, gentler" version perhaps but still too close to the original...gave me the willies....and I really do like John.
quote:John was also there to help people and give them answers when the rest of twi's "leadership" disapeared into the woodwork.
Well, actually, didn't he do EXACTLY what most of the rest of them did? Tried to get as many as possible of the new ex-wayfers to join up with him?
quote:John's not a bad guy really, just full of himself a little but he means well
Welllll, hummmmmmmmm, donoe about that, exactly. seems that he has also tried to railroad a couple of other ministers who didn't agree with him by sending out letters to believers in the area saying they wouldn't listen to "the truth" and calling them posessed. What was their real sin? Well, that they would not let him be their "leader."
It seems that is the way he has proven his "LOVE" to those who have their own group but don't let him rule over them.
I could say more about his LOVE for those close to him, but I'll stop there for now.
Well, honestly, I have to recuse myself from the conversation, because John is one of my oldest, dearest friends in the whole world. Such a relationship is quite precious to me, and very rare in my life, and not really open for discussion.
But this I know, John answers his email. :)--> If you want to talk to him, I feel very confident that he will listen.
Don'tFenceMeIn...Sure, he tried to recruit as many extwiers as he could...just like a number of ex-leaders did, who started their own splinter groups. Does he want to be the leader?...I think he does. Does any of that make him evil? I think not...there's nothing wrong with a man wanting to be a Christian leader and have people follow him...but the devil lies in the details. The question is...does JAL (CES) manipulate and use people like twi did? Do they coerce money out of people and sexually abuse them? Is it a scam, like twi? Those are the real questions that should be asked by people considering CES.
JAL has admitted to and apologized for the wrongs he did to people while in twi...that's a hell of a lot more than most of them have done. All I'm saying is that at one point in time...around 1987...JAL was the ONLY source (at least that I knew of), of a top twi leader, who was giving any answers to what was going on. Perhaps later, others joined in...but initially, it was JAL who reached out to members of twi with the information. What was his motive? We can speculate about that all day...was he jealous of lcm because he was passed over for the presidency? was he just blowing the whistle on twi because he had been fired and he wanted to take everybody with him and finally be the "leader" of his own group?...or was he sincere, feeling an obligation to at least explain to people what he knew and then try to help them by continuing his ministry? I guess you can put any spin on it that you like. Apparently, there's still plenty of folks who didn't get "enough" while in twi...that's why there's plenty of splinter groups...personally, I keep my distance from the whole bunch of em'...
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ex10
Oh geeze, I'm a day late and a dollar short.
:)--> as usual.
Not that I feel like I have to defend anybody here, JAL included, but it strikes me as pretty interesting that all the most outspoken peeps against Momentous, were never there.
:)-->
Been there, done that, and it ain't what people say it is. And as a matter of fact, Momentous is not that notable a thing in certain circles. What makes it so "momentous" is that it was a new thing among ex-cultists, exway cultists, to be exact.
JAL is a personal friend of mine, for many years, and all I have to say is that he has been there for me, for a couple of decades. I understand that many have a different experience of him. All I can say is, he answers his email. If you have something to work out with him, or want to know more about what he's doing now, or where he is in his life, talk to him.
It's difficult for me, to see a dear friend talked about here. As much as I've come to know and love many posters here, makes it all the more difficult.
Momentous didn't hurt me or my husband. I did my homework before I went, and knew what I was in for, and understood the "philosophy" and "psycology" behind it. If others didn't, well I'm sorry for their pain.
:(-->
It ain't nothing new, and has been very effective with helping people overcome obstacles in their lives. But it's like the old lightbulb joke, "How does a psycologist change a lightbulb?" Well, first the lightbulb has to want to be changed.
Love,
ex10
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pjroberge
Same old rationalization. If you haven't taken momentus how can you know yada yada at nauseum.
You don't need to put your hand in the fire to see if it will burn you if someone else just did and they were burned.
This crap about you have to have personally experienced momentus to judge it all full of it....
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ex10
Pat
Whatever.
-->
Do a little research, and then get back to me.
:D-->
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ex10
PS, I'm not gonna get into a ....ing match about this. I don't believe in betraying confidences.
:D--> No matter what.
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Grizzy
Yeah Know.......
I don't really don't care for JAL, Mark&Mark or CES or what ever they want to be called.
But I sure like some of the folks that do!!!!!
HI JEFF!!!!!!!!!
((((((((((((((EX10))))))))))))))
give them their space anti-cult NAZIS!!!!!!!!
:D-->
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ex10
Aw, Grizzz. You made my day!
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pjroberge
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LuckyGirl
I don't know...I just really don't care for the lines that take the assumption that we don't really "know" Jesus Christ. I guess my radar goes off when someone starts making all these assumptions. Plus, just because you vent, doesn't mean you are still acting the victim. Seems to me like most of us here are doing pretty good in life.
I don't know. I am not acquainted with JAL, but it seems most of these guys are always acting like they need to fix us. I would take them a little more seriously if they didn't come off acting like they have it so together & we don't.
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ex10
Pat,
Just look at the bigger picture, beyond the excult view.
:)--> You are good at that. 
:)-->
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socks
Nope, ex10, didn't take it. After I spoke to people who had and did, couple who were involved in it's "early days" and held on till it blew out of town, I decided it wasn't for us. At the time I figured I didn't need to swallow a can of nails to find out for myself what it would feel like. Then I heard about Dan Tochini from some ex-Way sources and figured well, go figure. There must be some cosmic joke here - in one orifice and out another, what goes around comes around. I agree with you though, it's just one very small can of cheese in a very big dairy.
But then several folks like yourself have said it was useful and helpful. Just goes to show I guess.
As for the JALster, I shouldn't kick a guy when he's down, or on the way up, or sitting pretty. I'm sure he would give a ratz hiney either way. But as always, I wish him well, he deserves it as much as anyone.
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JustThinking
For those who missed JALs time in TWI, could someone fill in the history? I came to TWI after he left. TWI leadership talked about him as if he were Satan himself. Then his name just got erased like so many others.
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oldiesman
I know John Lynn from his Limb Coordinator days in New York.
On my second WOW year (1979-80), I was sent to Little Rock, AR. Early on, I was having big big doubts about it. In fact, the second week there, I was contemplating leaving. I called my TC back in New York, and he consoled me, and after the discussion he said it was ok with him if I returned to NY and everything will be ok.
I called John Lynn, and told him my misgivings about staying in AR. "I spoke with my TC and will probably be coming back to NY".
"What?" John said... "I don't want you back here!"...
Then John asked "Who's your twig coordinator?"
I said "well, I don't want to tell you because then he'll get in trouble"
:D-->
I'm so glad I didn't tell him. ...
But John Lynn helped me see that it was wrong to leave the field after I had made the commitment, so I'm glad for the tough love. I thought he was a funny guy but also had a lot of love mixed in.
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excathedra
i was impressed with your twig leader
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oldiesman
Oh me too!
He was yet another reason why my time in twi-1 was decent. I went right back to his twig after the wow year ended.
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WordWolf
Here's the short version.
JAL was a higher-up and inner-circle fellow who, like a few
others who had held top positions, left twi a few years after
lcm became the mogfot and, apparently, they struck sparks and
were unable to work together. They knew where a lot of the
bodies were buried, so to speak, and they left around the same
time Schoenheit's paper on Adultery (check the GSC documents)
was circulating and being called possessed or some dumb thing like
that.
JAL was one of a VERY few who wrote books released by American
Christian Press. He wrote "Will The Real You Please Stand Up?"
"Will The Real You Please Remain Standing?" and "Living In the
Eye of the Storm."
Somebody who knew him longer can fill in more details than that.
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JustThinking
All,
Thanks for the info on JAL. Obviously, I have no opinion about him, Momentous or anything else mentioned as I never met the man. In a twisted way, that LCM hated him moves him up a notch in my book. :-)
Are JAL's books still available somewhere? I have heard of them but they had been yanked from TWI's bookstore by the time I got there. Some folks still had them until King Loy mandated they be tossed. Heard they were good reading.
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Steve!
Well, there are some on ebay . . .
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=6912625595
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oldiesman
Here's another letter written by John Lynn to the Way Believers, dated March 30, 1988.
March 30, 1988 Letter
Does anyone happen to have, or know anyone that has, that 37-page document he talks about? I'd love to read it if it's still available.
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oldiesman
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Grizzy
There is a lot more history to JAL........
JAL spent one year in residence and was known as recognized corps. I think he had been limb leader of Indiana before that.
He later became Northeast Region Leader, and New York limb leader. One thing to remember is that he was always center stage, main stage.
When LCM left Emporia and went to headquarters JAL left New York and started being *the* corps coordinator, I think he began this when the 10th was in residence.
For a period he traveled on TWI’s nickle and preached all the evils of TWI, maybe just a short time, but kind of strange he did. I saw him recruiting at a ROA, walking around with no name tag yet looking for WC name tags and having nice conversations with the *properly* tagged people........
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GrouchoMarxJr
Although I don't agree with everything that John has done or is doing since he left twi, one thing is for certain. Back in about 1987 or thereabouts, when most of the twi leadership was scrambling to cover their a$$es, John stood up and did the right thing. If I remember correctly, at the infamous "clergy meeting" when Geer was doing his nazi thing...only three clergy had the guts to stand up and walk out...John was one of them. John was also there to help people and give them answers when the rest of twi's "leadership" disapeared into the woodwork. John's not a bad guy really, just full of himself a little but he means well.
There were a lot of things about twi that JAL carried over into CES...his save the baby but dump the crappy water schpeil illustrates that. I really did check out CES when I first got out of twi (before I regained my senses), it seems like twi without the hierarchy breathing down your neck. A "kinder, gentler" version perhaps but still too close to the original...gave me the willies....and I really do like John.
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Don'tFenceMeIn
UncleHairy said:
Well, actually, didn't he do EXACTLY what most of the rest of them did? Tried to get as many as possible of the new ex-wayfers to join up with him?
Welllll, hummmmmmmmm, donoe about that, exactly. seems that he has also tried to railroad a couple of other ministers who didn't agree with him by sending out letters to believers in the area saying they wouldn't listen to "the truth" and calling them posessed. What was their real sin? Well, that they would not let him be their "leader."
It seems that is the way he has proven his "LOVE" to those who have their own group but don't let him rule over them.
I could say more about his LOVE for those close to him, but I'll stop there for now.
Fence
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ex10
Well, honestly, I have to recuse myself from the conversation, because John is one of my oldest, dearest friends in the whole world. Such a relationship is quite precious to me, and very rare in my life, and not really open for discussion.
But this I know, John answers his email.
:)--> If you want to talk to him, I feel very confident that he will listen.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Don'tFenceMeIn...Sure, he tried to recruit as many extwiers as he could...just like a number of ex-leaders did, who started their own splinter groups. Does he want to be the leader?...I think he does. Does any of that make him evil? I think not...there's nothing wrong with a man wanting to be a Christian leader and have people follow him...but the devil lies in the details. The question is...does JAL (CES) manipulate and use people like twi did? Do they coerce money out of people and sexually abuse them? Is it a scam, like twi? Those are the real questions that should be asked by people considering CES.
JAL has admitted to and apologized for the wrongs he did to people while in twi...that's a hell of a lot more than most of them have done. All I'm saying is that at one point in time...around 1987...JAL was the ONLY source (at least that I knew of), of a top twi leader, who was giving any answers to what was going on. Perhaps later, others joined in...but initially, it was JAL who reached out to members of twi with the information. What was his motive? We can speculate about that all day...was he jealous of lcm because he was passed over for the presidency? was he just blowing the whistle on twi because he had been fired and he wanted to take everybody with him and finally be the "leader" of his own group?...or was he sincere, feeling an obligation to at least explain to people what he knew and then try to help them by continuing his ministry? I guess you can put any spin on it that you like. Apparently, there's still plenty of folks who didn't get "enough" while in twi...that's why there's plenty of splinter groups...personally, I keep my distance from the whole bunch of em'...
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