"Gopher Boy (not that John Lynn knows or even asked me to post his letter here, I was just bored!)
I took that to mean that Jeff took it upon himself to spread joy, sunshine, and CES all over the place. Like I said, knowing Jeff it doesn't surprise me that he would do that and ask questions later, if at all.
*looks twice*
Yeah, looks like he answered the question all right.
I'm ashamed I missed it, but at least I wasn't alone.
Yes, I do have exactly the same agenda I had seven years ago (and have had for 17+ since being fired by TWI), which is to help everyone I possibly can come to know the Lord Jesus more intimately. In conjunction with that goal, I do have a particular affinity for people with "ex-Way vision," because I believe that we did hear the Word as it had not been taught since the first century, and I long to see my former pals and peers sort out their experiences so as to be healed as needed, and move forward in the Lord.
The countless testimonies from such folks about how what we have to offer has done exactly that for them spur me on to keep reaching out to others. Having said that, Jeff has carte blanche to post whatever he wants, and I'm still not sure exactly what he has put out lately, so, taking into consideration your feedback, I will ask him about it and see if we can be of more benefit to the Greasespot constituency.
Steve, I think you know that I am far more aware than most about how TWI has hurt many dear saints. It may be that I have talked with more of them than has anyone else, because for 17+ years I have sought them out and made myself available to them. Believe me, what I know from their personal testimonies is not easy to carry in my heart because it is so sickening. In my many years of roaming the country since 1987, sitting at scores of kitchen tables at midnight, I have seen the carnage firsthand and have done my best, flawed though it is, to help to heal people's hearts.
But the evils of the TWI system must be separated from the awesome truth of God's Word that was taught, and which saved the lives of countless people, and those who have not made that distinction have thrown out the baby with the bathwater. Tens of thousands of people had positive experiences with TWI and learned the Word like they could not have anywhere else. The Enemy saw clearly that VPW/TWI did have a (1) package of biblical truth unlike anything for centuries, and (2) a rapidly growing number of people committed to spreading it around the world, so he used the character flaws of many leaders, combined with significant doctrinal error, to tear apart what really did have the potential to take the Word over the world.
We have simply tried to hold to all the good we found in TWI while deleting the doctrinal and practical error, build on that foundation and move forward toward that same goal. What is wrong with that? We will let the fruit of our work in people's lives speak for itself.
As for whether or not TWI was a "cult," I'm not much for buzzwords, so I'm not invested in defending that it wasn't, but I daresay that matching the characteristics of contemporary organizations to the dictionary definition of "cult" would place the Roman Catholic Church and a number of other groups far ahead of the TWI I knew. Furthermore, none of those groups comes close to teaching the truth that TWI taught nor doing the amount of good TWI did, especially from the mid-60s until the early 80s.
Your allegation that Spirit and Truth Fellowship International is building a religious empire and replicating TWI is so very sad to me. Steve, before your Momentus experience, I remember you as an enthusiastic participant in our ministry. Did you think then that we were building a religious empire and replicating TWI? Apparently not, so I'm wondering what you think has changed.
Your statement shows clearly that your seven year absence from having any contact with us has left you in the dark as to where our hearts are and what we are doing for God's precious people. Those who are up close and personal with us know experientially, by their personal dealings with us, that how they are treated is far from how TWI too often treated people.
Your groundless allegation also irks me, not for my sake, but for the sake of any dear saint who might read it on Greasepot and believe it without investigating for himself. Anyone doing that would deprive himself of the wonderful people, activities, and materials we have available for the spiritual and emotional enrichment of God's people. If you have any current evidence of how we are mishandling God's Word or hurting people like TWI did, let me know. If not, please consider that you might be speaking ill of something that God is supporting.
I do love you and miss you.
Your brother,
John
p.s. Re: Momentus, many of my ex-Way friends have told me that the training was the catalyst for their healing from the hurt of TWI. As for the "65" people you spoke of (95% of 1300), I was going to say 99%, and should have, because that is my experience, in that maybe a dozen people have told me their Momentus experience was harmful to them. And yes, I grieved that for each one, of course. And yes, I realized early on, and have accounted to anyone I could, that my enthusiastic endorsement of the training contributed to some people doing it on my reommendation alone without looking into what it was and realizing that it was not something that would serve them.
p.p.s. I'd like you to post this on Greasespot, as you said you would.
Jeff - It sure didn't take much turn around time for that one, did it. How come it took so long?
And we KNOW that you're posting for Lynn THIS time, because that's the only way you could have gotten the text.
If you read my emails to John, I told him that my communications regarding Momentus, etc., had served their purpose. In my last email I didn't discuss Momentus, or the truth that CES is building a religious empire, or any of that other stuff. I posed two questions, and TWO QUESTIONS ONLY:
1. Whether or not Lynn was surruptitiously posting through you, and 2. whether or not he wrote, and still held the sentiment that Wierwille would be proud of what he is doing. I told him I would post his answer, AND I DID.
I posted what he wrote about your involvement, and I noted that he totally ignored the second question, which, if you read what Lynn told you to post, you will see he did.
When I received the smarmy infomercial that Lynn wrote in reply, I decided to post the answers Lynn gave to my questions, and not the whole thing, because it is a blatant attempt to turn ME into his stalking-horse as well as YOU, sir!
Well, the dishonesty is now in the open. Why didn't Lynn post this, instead of having YOU take the flak, Jeff, my boy?
Steve, I think your second question was answered in John’s reply to you. Maybe John didn’t say the word, “yes”, in his reply, but the below quotes indicate he does. That is an answer in itself. Just my opinion, but that is what I read.
“… because I believe that we did hear the Word as it had not been taught since the first century…”
”But the evils of the TWI system must be separated from the awesome truth of God's Word that was taught, and which saved the lives of countless people, and those who have not made that distinction have thrown out the baby with the bathwater.”
“Tens of thousands of people had positive experiences with TWI and learned the Word like they could not have anywhere else. The Enemy saw clearly that VPW/TWI did have a (1) package of biblical truth unlike anything for centuries, and (2) a rapidly growing number of people committed to spreading it around the world, so he used the character flaws of many leaders, combined with significant doctrinal error, to tear apart what really did have the potential to take the Word over the world.”
”We have simply tried to hold to all the good we found in TWI while deleting the doctrinal and practical error…”
”Furthermore, none of those groups comes close to teaching the truth that TWI taught nor doing the amount of good TWI did…”
Note: I posted these words in the Hi! It's the real me thread, as well as here for obvious reasons.
---
Does it bother anyone else that there are literally word for word duplications between JAL's letter to Steve Lortz and his epistle to those living in LandoftheGreasy Spot?
I thought that I was confused as to which thread said what.
Then I realized that JAL had posted here mostly word for word what he had written to Steve.
Something about that tells me that we still are seeing the same "form letter" with the "I Love You" approach.
----
Now before some of you fellow g-spotters think any more about what you have just read (and make the conclusion that I am just going to trash John Lynn or just be critical) in my opening comments consider all that I am now about to write:
In June of 1972 I attended a Sunday Night meeting in a VFW hall in Indianapolis at the invitation of a friend.
During that meeting, and several subsequent Sunday meetings I heard someone speak about God and the Bible like I had never heard before.
The logic and passion of his delivery as well as his likeable personality and sense of humor
were big factors in me listening intently.
At the conclusion of the first meeting there was an opportunity for attendees to come forward and be prayed for, or in their words to be "ministered to".
Having a need, I stepped forward and a person stepped behind me and prayed for me, with an almost supernatural ability to mention specific things that had prompted me to step forward.
The teacher for those meetings and the co-ordinator of those people ministering was
(JT: there is a related thread "TopTenAwesomeTruths from TWI" which I started.
It is part of the more to come as well as this post right here.)
I spent the summer of 1972 going to every Sunday night meeting. I bought just about every book from from the "book table" after the meeting.
For a while there were several carloads of us folks from south of Indy driving up.
I made plans to go this "Rock Of Ages" deal.
I also heard that this Victor Paul Wierwille guy was coming to town.
I was so impressed with John Lynn's teaching that I wasn't at all interested in hearing VPW.
He sounded like an old codger and I didn't think anyone could teach as good as John.
I planned on taking this PFAL class at a family camp right after the Rock.
Before the class a guy from the fellowships up north was visiting us down south and I asked to be led into speaking in tongues, and I was and did.
The Rock was awesome, The PFAL class camp was neat. It was a film class with lots of people and camp stuff. I still have a picture of our cabins. I have a picture of Pat and Christine (Christine was about 12 years old at the time)
walking back to the cabin from the pool.
After the class we started two twigs on the Southside.
----
Time marched on . . .
----
Years later after having taken the advanced class, gone WOW ambassador (the first year that there were 1,000 ambassadors), been apprentice 6th corps, and spent six months in residence as SixthCorps in Kansas, then deciding that the Corps program was not what I wanted to do, I bummed $5 in gas money from LCM, filled up my VW bug and headed home.
More time passed and my concerns about the way were increasing, but I still accepted all the "outer" doctrines.
But the hint of differing doctrines at higher levels and inner circles was too strong to mistake.
Besides hearing things at Kansas in 75-76,
Now (77-78 ? I think) I was hearing copies of teachings to the Indiana fellowlaborers (Statewide mini-corps were all the rage around this time).
The same John Lynn who so impressed me years before could be heard (these tapes were probably made in 75-77) saying things like,
" I hope I never have to shoot someone, but (the inference was there could be a time when "God" would need twi faithful to do this) but what is natural man but just 170 pounds of ground beef!"
Whew. That doesn't sound like the love of God!
Shooting people. Considering people as nothing more than animals.
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*looks twice*
Yeah, looks like he answered the question all right.
I'm ashamed I missed it, but at least I wasn't alone.
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Jeff USAF RET
Hi Steve,
Bless you, brother.
Yes, I do have exactly the same agenda I had seven years ago (and have had for 17+ since being fired by TWI), which is to help everyone I possibly can come to know the Lord Jesus more intimately. In conjunction with that goal, I do have a particular affinity for people with "ex-Way vision," because I believe that we did hear the Word as it had not been taught since the first century, and I long to see my former pals and peers sort out their experiences so as to be healed as needed, and move forward in the Lord.
The countless testimonies from such folks about how what we have to offer has done exactly that for them spur me on to keep reaching out to others. Having said that, Jeff has carte blanche to post whatever he wants, and I'm still not sure exactly what he has put out lately, so, taking into consideration your feedback, I will ask him about it and see if we can be of more benefit to the Greasespot constituency.
Steve, I think you know that I am far more aware than most about how TWI has hurt many dear saints. It may be that I have talked with more of them than has anyone else, because for 17+ years I have sought them out and made myself available to them. Believe me, what I know from their personal testimonies is not easy to carry in my heart because it is so sickening. In my many years of roaming the country since 1987, sitting at scores of kitchen tables at midnight, I have seen the carnage firsthand and have done my best, flawed though it is, to help to heal people's hearts.
But the evils of the TWI system must be separated from the awesome truth of God's Word that was taught, and which saved the lives of countless people, and those who have not made that distinction have thrown out the baby with the bathwater. Tens of thousands of people had positive experiences with TWI and learned the Word like they could not have anywhere else. The Enemy saw clearly that VPW/TWI did have a (1) package of biblical truth unlike anything for centuries, and (2) a rapidly growing number of people committed to spreading it around the world, so he used the character flaws of many leaders, combined with significant doctrinal error, to tear apart what really did have the potential to take the Word over the world.
We have simply tried to hold to all the good we found in TWI while deleting the doctrinal and practical error, build on that foundation and move forward toward that same goal. What is wrong with that? We will let the fruit of our work in people's lives speak for itself.
As for whether or not TWI was a "cult," I'm not much for buzzwords, so I'm not invested in defending that it wasn't, but I daresay that matching the characteristics of contemporary organizations to the dictionary definition of "cult" would place the Roman Catholic Church and a number of other groups far ahead of the TWI I knew. Furthermore, none of those groups comes close to teaching the truth that TWI taught nor doing the amount of good TWI did, especially from the mid-60s until the early 80s.
Your allegation that Spirit and Truth Fellowship International is building a religious empire and replicating TWI is so very sad to me. Steve, before your Momentus experience, I remember you as an enthusiastic participant in our ministry. Did you think then that we were building a religious empire and replicating TWI? Apparently not, so I'm wondering what you think has changed.
Your statement shows clearly that your seven year absence from having any contact with us has left you in the dark as to where our hearts are and what we are doing for God's precious people. Those who are up close and personal with us know experientially, by their personal dealings with us, that how they are treated is far from how TWI too often treated people.
Your groundless allegation also irks me, not for my sake, but for the sake of any dear saint who might read it on Greasepot and believe it without investigating for himself. Anyone doing that would deprive himself of the wonderful people, activities, and materials we have available for the spiritual and emotional enrichment of God's people. If you have any current evidence of how we are mishandling God's Word or hurting people like TWI did, let me know. If not, please consider that you might be speaking ill of something that God is supporting.
I do love you and miss you.
Your brother,
John
p.s. Re: Momentus, many of my ex-Way friends have told me that the training was the catalyst for their healing from the hurt of TWI. As for the "65" people you spoke of (95% of 1300), I was going to say 99%, and should have, because that is my experience, in that maybe a dozen people have told me their Momentus experience was harmful to them. And yes, I grieved that for each one, of course. And yes, I realized early on, and have accounted to anyone I could, that my enthusiastic endorsement of the training contributed to some people doing it on my reommendation alone without looking into what it was and realizing that it was not something that would serve them.
p.p.s. I'd like you to post this on Greasespot, as you said you would.
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Steve Lortz
Jeff - It sure didn't take much turn around time for that one, did it. How come it took so long?
And we KNOW that you're posting for Lynn THIS time, because that's the only way you could have gotten the text.
If you read my emails to John, I told him that my communications regarding Momentus, etc., had served their purpose. In my last email I didn't discuss Momentus, or the truth that CES is building a religious empire, or any of that other stuff. I posed two questions, and TWO QUESTIONS ONLY:
1. Whether or not Lynn was surruptitiously posting through you, and 2. whether or not he wrote, and still held the sentiment that Wierwille would be proud of what he is doing. I told him I would post his answer, AND I DID.
I posted what he wrote about your involvement, and I noted that he totally ignored the second question, which, if you read what Lynn told you to post, you will see he did.
When I received the smarmy infomercial that Lynn wrote in reply, I decided to post the answers Lynn gave to my questions, and not the whole thing, because it is a blatant attempt to turn ME into his stalking-horse as well as YOU, sir!
Well, the dishonesty is now in the open. Why didn't Lynn post this, instead of having YOU take the flak, Jeff, my boy?
Spineless... spineless... spineless...
Truly,
Steve
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Raf
Well, John has posted for himself on another thread. So I don't know who's "spineless" here. I don't see anyone who fits that description.
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Shelly
Steve, I think your second question was answered in John’s reply to you. Maybe John didn’t say the word, “yes”, in his reply, but the below quotes indicate he does. That is an answer in itself. Just my opinion, but that is what I read.
“… because I believe that we did hear the Word as it had not been taught since the first century…”
”But the evils of the TWI system must be separated from the awesome truth of God's Word that was taught, and which saved the lives of countless people, and those who have not made that distinction have thrown out the baby with the bathwater.”
“Tens of thousands of people had positive experiences with TWI and learned the Word like they could not have anywhere else. The Enemy saw clearly that VPW/TWI did have a (1) package of biblical truth unlike anything for centuries, and (2) a rapidly growing number of people committed to spreading it around the world, so he used the character flaws of many leaders, combined with significant doctrinal error, to tear apart what really did have the potential to take the Word over the world.”
”We have simply tried to hold to all the good we found in TWI while deleting the doctrinal and practical error…”
”Furthermore, none of those groups comes close to teaching the truth that TWI taught nor doing the amount of good TWI did…”
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Darrell Bailey
Note: I posted these words in the Hi! It's the real me thread, as well as here for obvious reasons.
---
Does it bother anyone else that there are literally word for word duplications between JAL's letter to Steve Lortz and his epistle to those living in LandoftheGreasy Spot?
I thought that I was confused as to which thread said what.
Then I realized that JAL had posted here mostly word for word what he had written to Steve.
Something about that tells me that we still are seeing the same "form letter" with the "I Love You" approach.
----
Now before some of you fellow g-spotters think any more about what you have just read (and make the conclusion that I am just going to trash John Lynn or just be critical) in my opening comments consider all that I am now about to write:
In June of 1972 I attended a Sunday Night meeting in a VFW hall in Indianapolis at the invitation of a friend.
During that meeting, and several subsequent Sunday meetings I heard someone speak about God and the Bible like I had never heard before.
The logic and passion of his delivery as well as his likeable personality and sense of humor
were big factors in me listening intently.
At the conclusion of the first meeting there was an opportunity for attendees to come forward and be prayed for, or in their words to be "ministered to".
Having a need, I stepped forward and a person stepped behind me and prayed for me, with an almost supernatural ability to mention specific things that had prompted me to step forward.
The teacher for those meetings and the co-ordinator of those people ministering was
a young man named John Lynn.
--
More to come . . .
Darrell Bailey
Greater Indianapolis Area
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JustThinking
Darrell,
Will there be more in this thread or another?
JT
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waterbuffalo
Steve Lortz,
Please check your pt. I have a question for you.
Thanks,
WB
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Darrell Bailey
More to come . . . is here
(JT: there is a related thread "TopTenAwesomeTruths from TWI" which I started.
It is part of the more to come as well as this post right here.)
I spent the summer of 1972 going to every Sunday night meeting. I bought just about every book from from the "book table" after the meeting.
For a while there were several carloads of us folks from south of Indy driving up.
I made plans to go this "Rock Of Ages" deal.
I also heard that this Victor Paul Wierwille guy was coming to town.
I was so impressed with John Lynn's teaching that I wasn't at all interested in hearing VPW.
He sounded like an old codger and I didn't think anyone could teach as good as John.
I planned on taking this PFAL class at a family camp right after the Rock.
Before the class a guy from the fellowships up north was visiting us down south and I asked to be led into speaking in tongues, and I was and did.
The Rock was awesome, The PFAL class camp was neat. It was a film class with lots of people and camp stuff. I still have a picture of our cabins. I have a picture of Pat and Christine (Christine was about 12 years old at the time)
walking back to the cabin from the pool.
After the class we started two twigs on the Southside.
----
Time marched on . . .
----
Years later after having taken the advanced class, gone WOW ambassador (the first year that there were 1,000 ambassadors), been apprentice 6th corps, and spent six months in residence as SixthCorps in Kansas, then deciding that the Corps program was not what I wanted to do, I bummed $5 in gas money from LCM, filled up my VW bug and headed home.
More time passed and my concerns about the way were increasing, but I still accepted all the "outer" doctrines.
But the hint of differing doctrines at higher levels and inner circles was too strong to mistake.
Besides hearing things at Kansas in 75-76,
Now (77-78 ? I think) I was hearing copies of teachings to the Indiana fellowlaborers (Statewide mini-corps were all the rage around this time).
The same John Lynn who so impressed me years before could be heard (these tapes were probably made in 75-77) saying things like,
" I hope I never have to shoot someone, but (the inference was there could be a time when "God" would need twi faithful to do this) but what is natural man but just 170 pounds of ground beef!"
Whew. That doesn't sound like the love of God!
Shooting people. Considering people as nothing more than animals.
More to come again . . .
Darrell
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Darrell Bailey
Oops. It is not obvious who "Pat and Christine" are. Pat was John's wife at the time and Christine is his daughter.
I have more to say but my access to posting is limited.
Darrell
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