I can't contradict you, or offer an effective counterargument. I am utterly unqualified to say anything about Momentus. If you have a point here, it's one I'm incapable of seeing for the obvious reason that I never took Momentus, and came into contact with CES only after it abandoned Momentus.
In normal, untainted language, looking to the past with a mindset of "I went through hell, but I can pull some good out of it" is healthy, even if the only good you can pull out of it is "I ain't gonna do that again."
I know your situation, Raf. I thought my comments might help you see why some people's responses to John's letter might seem to you to be a little overboard.
Reading JAL write about "choosing to be a victim" is for some people what it might be like for some others to find themselves back inside the motor coach once more.
lets take it a step farther then and excuse Martindale for his sins" the thing is this while that was going on both john S. and John Lynn were married and doing the same thing!
twi got sued because they have the money honey and John Lynn started what led to that mess all over agin in a new town with some fesh paint .
here is the killer for me ON the fact twi was wrong about adultry !!!! lololol give me a break he backstabbed his way into the money roll and it was an easy ride and plenty to put more on his OWN pay roll of deceit.
yeah I was there he sang a tune of victim pretty dam long and hard HIS OWN SELF poor guy with the boo hoo about how howard never gave him a reason for being fired and they never gave him the money for the books he wrote . on and on he rode the pity train all the way to the bank draggin those too stunned and ignorant but very well trained to pay his nut anyways. they had no where eles to turn please he built his cult on lies and slander and gossip at the cost of his brothers in christ who he loved and worked for his ENTIRE LIFE. he was a MAJOR player in twi and loved every minute ofthe lifestyle of excess and worship it broughthim UNtill twi played their final ace and said he was not good enough . hahaha yeah that is right he loves you even more believe what ya want, it couldnt be he had to much detailed information to blackmail or be called testify agaisnt LCM could it? hmm oh no one has thought of that? they are all just loving leaders of Gods word with no personal agenda or strife or envy or evil between them. couldnt be they are both laughing all the way to the bank? or could it?
call me paranoid all you want or even bitter, but one thing you cant call me anymore is ignorant of the deciet and evilness the top leaders in twi are capable of and John Lynn and his crew is in the gang with five stars still hanging and true to the brotherhood till death of that fact I have no doubt.
one more thing I think the fact twi never addressed the sex doctrines is because they honestly believed what they were doing was right,but never had any bible to back it up they kept silent on the subject.
it just galls me to no end that ces will scream error out of one corner of their mouth to please the people with their white washed talk, yet continue on doing what they want regarding sex outside of marriage . to me the latter is far more damaging and worse on a soul who wants to believe in their leadership. in fact it is crushing.
quote: ... it is a humbling process to realize what a cult is. it takes awhile if ever bro.
Yeah, right! Depends on whose definition you use. Some say a 'cult' is one thing. Others, with just as much conviction, say its something else, even if they sometimes contradict what the 1st said.
And then there are those who are rather selective about whom they apply the 'brainwashed culthead' label to. :P-->
One thing for *damn* sure. It ain't no science. Not by a L-O-N-G shot, despite what the ((cough)) 'experts' say.
quote: I will define cult as a group that hurts another for their own gain, while using God and faith as a standard of truth.
You know how much of the mainstream church and other religious groups over the centuries you could include in that statement? And how many people who would never go that far? ;)-->
quote: it is general and I could include alot more detailed issues.
1) I think that we all did hear much of the Word "as it has not been taught since the first century."
2) I thank God that I was taught the inherent keys to the Word's interpretation. They are still true,
3) In closing, let me say that I honestly believe that Dr. Wierwille would be very proud of what we are doing. We have taken the keys to the Word's interpretation that he taught us and we have used them to evaluate his own teachings, correcting those that did not agree with Scripture.
Jeff:
It looks to me like diode 1,2,3, above are being hooked up to see if he can get Frankenstien to walk again. Are you kidding me?
Mr. John Lynn:
Why is it that you need Dr Wierwille's presumed acknowledgement to validate what you are doing? Still rambling on about hearing the word "as it's not been taught since the first century?"How exactly, do you trust a God that would leave His word in such disarray until the appearance of the writings of Werewille? If you seriously believe that you cannot have trust in God at all. What exactly was God doing in those 1900 years, sleeping? Still correcting scripture with scripture? It's the same old giggle juice isn't it? Repackaged with a different vendor with what 25 corrections? Is the doctrine perfect now? Should I shuffle the Biblical deck some more? Is it possible that God didnt want his word limited by any man and thats the meaning of not "using it for private interpetation?" But then it kinda ruins the "not since the first century church thing" doesnt it? Tell me this Johnie, was it the baker or the butler that ruined the Pharoh's store?
It certainly looks to me like someones in the bath tub playing with the same rubber ducky that was there 22 years ago.
Gang:
Here's what I can't stand gang. Love doesnt vaunt itself right? And yet we find the same old high wire vaunting act that went on 22 years ago with this , " not taught since the first century church thing." It certainly looks like the underlings have exceeded the masters in pusuit of the meaning of scriptures. Maybe I should mention King Agag of the Old Testament, so then some "Biblical Researcher", could show up and tell us all how the King Agag name came down through the English language in order to form the understanding of the term A gag, or was it a gig? Either way, then they'd have to whitewash the "out of the mouth of babes and sucklings" biblical phrase as a figure of speech, in order to prove it takes research not sincerity and desire to understand the scriptures. I just wish King Agag would pull the gag out of his mouth. This looks really lame.
Thank you for your reply to my post, but part of your reply is the reason we keep having blow-ups. You said something like, "why don't we just excuse Martindale..." implying that this is a reasonable outcome of my argument. You must have missed the line where I said...
quote:My problem with Wierwille and Martindale is not that they committed adultery (by reports and accounts, they did worse than that, but let's stick with adultery for the sake of this discussion).
I am well aware of what you are saying regarding Martindale. I have never contradicted it.
But let's stick with the point: does a divorced person have no right to be a minister? That's what it sounds like when you bring up the fact that JAL and JS are divorced.
Excuse adultery? Please, I did nothing of the kind.
With that said, the rest of your post gives a lot of food for thought.
mj412 - I can imagine the feelings of disappointment and betrayal that prompt you to vent the way you do regarding John Lynn and CES. They disappointed and betrayed me, too, as well as many others.
It's true, they mistakenly think they're different from TWI because they can point to a few doctrinal differences. But their basic attitude, that they can make the Word fit their theology by manipulating interpretations, is identical to TWI's. They have set themselves above the Word of God. That's a dangerous place to be... VERY dangerous in all sorts of ways.
Back in the New Testament days, the Pharisees set themselves above the Word of God by teaching that Levitical laws governing temple activities should be extended to everyone in the whole country of Judaea. We see what happened with them. Jesus said they were the blind leading the blind.
The principals of CES set themselves above the Word of God by wrongly imagining they can "rightly divide" it. They, too, are the blind leading the blind.
They are very INTO picking the motes out of our eyes. After all, why should we pay them if they don't provide us with that service? But they DO NOT SEE the planks in their own eyes.
The problems CES (as opposed to TWI) has faced in the area of sex have been problems of legalism, rather than license. After John's divorce from Pat, he wasn't running around getting whatever he could. He was agonizing over whether it would be sinful, for him as a divorced man, to ever date again.
There was a faction in the Living Word Fellowship that wanted to call the people who were shouldering responsibilities "deacons". The "leadership team" was dead set against that, though. They felt that calling them "deacons" would disqualify John because of I Timothy 3:12 and his divorce.
Yes, mj412, in their heart attitude, CES is still like TWI. Yes, they still err in the catagory of sex and marriage. But they aren't practicing the adultery that ran rampant in TWI. In that respect, they flip-flopped 180 degrees, to the exact opposite direction.
I'm thankful for your life, mj412. I know you've been deeply hurt. Stick around. We'll see if we can't keep that sort of thing from happening again.
mj412 - You're right when you point out that John's appeal to the dead Wierwille's approval for what John is doing sounds insincere. John did stretch his post TWI fledgling wings by trashing Wierwille and passing a coffee can (no wicker horn of plenty for John) for donations.
it runs through my mind if that is not the very reason the martindales stay married .
We tend to forget that all of us struggled a great deal with "what happened" and in spite of we all are christians trying to mend our life with God and one another.
I chose to stay single after divorce. Do I think Paul says I would be happier? yes and I believe it to be a true statement from the bible. It does say a husband of ONE wife. I think we understand why even in our very liberal culture with rampant sex it is something to talk about and a distraction from the cause.
If a man can not run his own house well can he lead people well?
I do not know if it is wrong or not I do wrong nearly every single day and still wake up every day ready to meet my maker.
I get judged often for not finding a husband and being a single woman as well. I know God loves us and to be in a miserable marriage that is a lie of a life together is not how He interacts with me. I think Jesus said go in peace when he healed people and I know my Lord is a gentle spirit who does not care for strife and envy and all the trouble a bad or unloving marriage can bring a person. should he be a decon? this would NOT be an issue with me. I know John L wanted his marriage to work and tried for many years . John S. is also divorced and had small children, why is his mess always dismissed? He also addmitted to adultry while in the way and was divorced post way that roll boy always comes out like a shiny coin and no one gets on his crap. why is that hmmm? just curious .
they will scream grace in your face. hmmpf most christians will with at least on area of their life I have found out including me with the smoking and not being as organized as I should/could be.
the personal prophecy advertisments and shows are an issue with me tho. Alot of my distaste comes from the fellowship I was in and I do not want to go into details but they wanted to be ordained by CES and it really felt like the group changed and fell apart when that was on the platform due to what CES dictated had to be done in a certain way. I think Mark gets too intellectual in his writings and goes overboard with over thinking ideas and it stretches beyond my comfort zone on what the bible may say. he is like a tiny Matindale with a harness held by his prophetress wife, hehehe sorry Mark. hah if no one gets that it isnt displacement I enjoyed Martindales scenes in the day hahah . Well we can all pray .
Raf when I went back to twi the second time I stood aloof and learned and I didnt get hurt like you are with CES for the most part.. but I wanted more and I put more into the fellowship with CES and yes I do feel strongly about how it can draw people away from Gods will and into their thing . I do not know the motives I just know it cant be good.
quote:it just galls me to no end that ces will scream error out of one corner of their mouth to please the people with their white washed talk, yet continue on doing what they want regarding sex outside of marriage . to me the latter is far more damaging and worse on a soul who wants to believe in their leadership. in fact it is crushing.
MJ412,
I didn't quite understand this statement. Are you referring to the fact that they continue to commit adultery, or the fact that they don't preach against fornication? Both? Neither?
Thats a noteworthy point with one execption, somebody posted it here with someones presumed authority? :)--> Did it therefore bring us up to speed on current matters?
With respect to the stuff that occured in the 1980's: I can't believe someone did a "research paper" on wether Adultry was wrong or not. That really sounds retarded. Most of us that went to Sunday School heard it was wrong before we even new what sex was. Then the cue ball "not taught like since the first century thing shows up", and it dwarfs the writings of "Martin Luther". It just sounds so idiotic.
I also have a question. Was that "not taught since the first century thing" a quote in a book, in the Pfal class, or just simply a line floating around? I really dont remember.
quote:... that they can make the Word fit their theology by manipulating interpretations, ...
How many different Christian denominations are there in the U.S., and how many of them may be accused of engaging in this type of activity, if one wishes to engage in that type of accusation? Most, if not all, I presume.
I prefer to look on CES' doctrinal teachings as beliefs that you or I may or may not concur with; rather than they must have some sinister evil selfish motive behind it ...
In view of the practices and pronouncements at that time to the contrary (i.e. adultrey is not a sin) , I think it was some independent thinking by someone who wanted to show from the Bible that adultrey IS wrong. It hasnt been the only time the obvious has been needed, as it is not so obvious to all. Obviously in TWI it WASNT obvious to all, including, of course, some leadership. Perhaps a better way to put it would be that you can't believe such a paper was needed.
quote:I also have a question. Was that "not taught since the first century thing" a quote in a book, in the Pfal class, or just simply a line floating around? I really dont remember.
Raf- Any thoughts?
I think it was in the PFAL class (not the book). It is certainly in The Way: Living in Love by Elena Scott Whiteside. It's also a bunch of hooey. Why anyone would appeal to it today is beyond me.
I say continue on well that is wrong because I have no doubt they wouldnt be forthcoming and I have no clue what their day to day current activities may be and it is a much smaller closed sect of inner circle who trust and take care of one another.
let me explain where I was coming from for you OM.
After he was fired John L. was roaming the country saving the souls from the evil of twi and recruiting them into his heart of love and leadership he was using the storys and drama from the victims in twi. it was soap opera who knew who and pure drama and it worked. fine. A few years later both he and John S, admit to being involved in the same type of activity (of course by satan and with the tears whatever ) while in the way. HMMM after the people had bowed and joined up and raised their arms in worship of course.
drama agin this time to prove they know the pain of twi and can relate to the sinners they now lord over, how repentance is key to their life and to explain the fact both of their marriages fell apart what with being good christian men they had all corners of accusations covered . If they had a mission of truth and honesty and really had the courage to be honest why when they took a stand against twi did they not metion their own crap which stunk just as bad if not worse along with their tune of the evil way? no they covered till they had enough people to pay their nut and got what they wanted a hard core following that would understand their rough life and give them the pity and stand up for them against any accusation of wrong doing or doubt of their true love. hence the birth of the very important core of their cult which fell from twi into their arms blindly going forth standing with those who speak the truth. the special ones you know who really love God and those who speak His truth in love no matter what the gainsayers may claim about them. lol . people following people has been the norm for this group and always will be. they worked the crowd they played and they won many by manipulating . it is stronger and more manipulating than twi ever was. it is a cult built from a cult following with players that would sooner die for the cause than leave the only life they have ever known.
“The problems CES (as opposed to TWI) has faced in the area of sex have been problems of legalism, rather than license. After John's divorce from Pat, he wasn't running around . . . He was agonizing over whether it would be sinful, for him as a divorced man, to ever date again.”
That sounds like what we saw.
“Yes, mj412, in their heart attitude, CES is still like TWI. Yes, they still err in the category of sex and marriage. But they aren't practicing the adultery that ran rampant in TWI. In that respect, they flip-flopped 180 degrees, to the exact opposite direction.”
They err by not committing adultery, but rather because a leader agonizes over whether or not it would be right for him to re-marry?
I would think it was a good thing, for a leader to stop and think and really be committed and in full support from the scriptures before he began any large undertaking. Would I be that agonized over the decision? No. But I am not him. Neither are you.
To my observation, many of the CES crew are overly sensitized to the issue of spiritual-abuse and leadership taking un-due advantage over their congregants. That is okay. For my blood they are a little too overly-sensitive to the topic, but so what.
MJ-
“it just galls me to no end that ces will scream error out of one corner of their mouth to please the people with their white washed talk, yet continue on doing what they want regarding sex outside of marriage . to me the latter is far more damaging and worse on a soul who wants to believe in their leadership. in fact it is crushing.”
Do you mean by taking a leave of absence from the ministry to enable a leader to court a possible future wife?
I totally missed how that is “. . . far more damaging and worse on a soul who wants to believe in their leadership. in fact it is crushing.” Could you explain?
Oldie-
“How many different Christian denominations are there in the U.S., and how many of them may be accused of engaging in this type of activity, if one wishes to engage in that type of accusation? Most, if not all, I presume.”
I agree.
Raised a Baptist, spent time as a member of a Methodist church, currently we deal with Ana-Baptists (Mennonites) on occasion with our Homeschool curriculum. This does describe their dealings. I have debated this issue with Roman Catholic leaders over the years, and they tend to fully support and encourage the changing of doctrines to better blend in with society’s changing moars.
John S. was asked to write the paper on sex by twi. he was an employee at the time... they disagreed on it and refused to put in into publication .
John S. started to get paranoid for his very life ! John S. sent out copies to others outside of the research dept in case something happened to him . John S. hooked up with John L. and the war began ....
I think I do look at this alot differently than you guys .
leave of absent how nice a wording of course we all need time to reflect on life and God.
THAT IS NOT WHAT happened.
John Lynn wrote a letter saying how sorry he was for hurting a member in the body of Christ blah blah blah HE GOT BUSTED PEOPLE!!!!
HE WAS CONFRONTED for sexual misdeeds by CES because somone complained about his life style hence the dam apology .
they punished him his own dam company punished him too here this poor sucker is paying their way in life on his lies and deciet tuittion to college travelling kids camps all of it and they VOTE him out for a year as PUNISHMENT.
to which he agreed , of course he did,something had to be done because someone had something against his mess for real and the mission for God must carry on you know I mean lifes depended on it esp. Mark and Karen Ann and John S. who is now living quite well in the CES gravy train.
I wet my pants with laughter when they sent that letter out.
whoever John Lynn "hurt" must have been happy with that result Im sure that gave her a easy ticket to the inner cirlce of love and forever faithful of CES and that is all a true cult head esp. one who is willing to be sexualy abused by its top leader ever really wants in life isnt it?
it was all good, poor john with his updates on how he tutored for the sat that year in his first and only real job in life yeah Im sure that is what he truly lived on. give me a break he has money his family had money and he was floating around being a single guy with a life without those pesky believers for a change> IT WAS A PAID VACATION > and it gave people the faithful one a chance to listen to Mark as the leader and loving one without mr. obnoxious cult leader taking center stage every minute. and it worked Mark stood for God through it all even John Lynn can you guys not see this at all? John knew he didnt want to work forever and Mark needed to rise up to lead the people kind of hard as you know John Lynn was becon of hope for so many who had left the way now they were ready , john go away for awhile let Mark be the chosen one of God for a minute for the people of course ... take some time off bro... notice now John L. works much less and is enjoying his married life and Mark is going full speed ahead? yeah they do not think about the future and how to make money . you guys are just stupid sometimes. Im sorry if Im bitter your stupid.
quote:John S. was asked to write the paper on sex by twi. he was an employee at the time... they disagreed on it and refused to put in into publication.
Really, I've not heard this before. I was under the impression (maybe errantly) that he took it upon himself to write and was subsequently "asked to leave"...
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Raf
I can't contradict you, or offer an effective counterargument. I am utterly unqualified to say anything about Momentus. If you have a point here, it's one I'm incapable of seeing for the obvious reason that I never took Momentus, and came into contact with CES only after it abandoned Momentus.
In normal, untainted language, looking to the past with a mindset of "I went through hell, but I can pull some good out of it" is healthy, even if the only good you can pull out of it is "I ain't gonna do that again."
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Steve Lortz
I know your situation, Raf. I thought my comments might help you see why some people's responses to John's letter might seem to you to be a little overboard.
Reading JAL write about "choosing to be a victim" is for some people what it might be like for some others to find themselves back inside the motor coach once more.
Love,
Steve
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mj412
good for you Raf.
lets take it a step farther then and excuse Martindale for his sins" the thing is this while that was going on both john S. and John Lynn were married and doing the same thing!
twi got sued because they have the money honey and John Lynn started what led to that mess all over agin in a new town with some fesh paint .
here is the killer for me ON the fact twi was wrong about adultry !!!! lololol give me a break he backstabbed his way into the money roll and it was an easy ride and plenty to put more on his OWN pay roll of deceit.
yeah I was there he sang a tune of victim pretty dam long and hard HIS OWN SELF poor guy with the boo hoo about how howard never gave him a reason for being fired and they never gave him the money for the books he wrote . on and on he rode the pity train all the way to the bank draggin those too stunned and ignorant but very well trained to pay his nut anyways. they had no where eles to turn please he built his cult on lies and slander and gossip at the cost of his brothers in christ who he loved and worked for his ENTIRE LIFE. he was a MAJOR player in twi and loved every minute ofthe lifestyle of excess and worship it broughthim UNtill twi played their final ace and said he was not good enough . hahaha yeah that is right he loves you even more believe what ya want, it couldnt be he had to much detailed information to blackmail or be called testify agaisnt LCM could it? hmm oh no one has thought of that? they are all just loving leaders of Gods word with no personal agenda or strife or envy or evil between them. couldnt be they are both laughing all the way to the bank? or could it?
call me paranoid all you want or even bitter, but one thing you cant call me anymore is ignorant of the deciet and evilness the top leaders in twi are capable of and John Lynn and his crew is in the gang with five stars still hanging and true to the brotherhood till death of that fact I have no doubt.
one more thing I think the fact twi never addressed the sex doctrines is because they honestly believed what they were doing was right,but never had any bible to back it up they kept silent on the subject.
it just galls me to no end that ces will scream error out of one corner of their mouth to please the people with their white washed talk, yet continue on doing what they want regarding sex outside of marriage . to me the latter is far more damaging and worse on a soul who wants to believe in their leadership. in fact it is crushing.
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GarthP2000
Yeah, right! Depends on whose definition you use. Some say a 'cult' is one thing. Others, with just as much conviction, say its something else, even if they sometimes contradict what the 1st said.
And then there are those who are rather selective about whom they apply the 'brainwashed culthead' label to.
:P-->
One thing for *damn* sure. It ain't no science. Not by a L-O-N-G shot, despite what the ((cough)) 'experts' say.
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mj412
your right Garth, and that is exactly why some never have any problems with such groups and the destruction they have brought .
I will define cult as a group that hurts another for their own gain, while using God and faith as a standard of truth.
it is general and I could include alot more detailed issues.
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GarthP2000
You know how much of the mainstream church and other religious groups over the centuries you could include in that statement? And how many people who would never go that far?
;)-->
So could I, MJ. So could I.
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sky4it
Three excerpts from John Lynn letter:
1) I think that we all did hear much of the Word "as it has not been taught since the first century."
2) I thank God that I was taught the inherent keys to the Word's interpretation. They are still true,
3) In closing, let me say that I honestly believe that Dr. Wierwille would be very proud of what we are doing. We have taken the keys to the Word's interpretation that he taught us and we have used them to evaluate his own teachings, correcting those that did not agree with Scripture.
Jeff:
It looks to me like diode 1,2,3, above are being hooked up to see if he can get Frankenstien to walk again. Are you kidding me?
Mr. John Lynn:
Why is it that you need Dr Wierwille's presumed acknowledgement to validate what you are doing? Still rambling on about hearing the word "as it's not been taught since the first century?"How exactly, do you trust a God that would leave His word in such disarray until the appearance of the writings of Werewille? If you seriously believe that you cannot have trust in God at all. What exactly was God doing in those 1900 years, sleeping? Still correcting scripture with scripture? It's the same old giggle juice isn't it? Repackaged with a different vendor with what 25 corrections? Is the doctrine perfect now? Should I shuffle the Biblical deck some more? Is it possible that God didnt want his word limited by any man and thats the meaning of not "using it for private interpetation?" But then it kinda ruins the "not since the first century church thing" doesnt it? Tell me this Johnie, was it the baker or the butler that ruined the Pharoh's store?
It certainly looks to me like someones in the bath tub playing with the same rubber ducky that was there 22 years ago.
Gang:
Here's what I can't stand gang. Love doesnt vaunt itself right? And yet we find the same old high wire vaunting act that went on 22 years ago with this , " not taught since the first century church thing." It certainly looks like the underlings have exceeded the masters in pusuit of the meaning of scriptures. Maybe I should mention King Agag of the Old Testament, so then some "Biblical Researcher", could show up and tell us all how the King Agag name came down through the English language in order to form the understanding of the term A gag, or was it a gig? Either way, then they'd have to whitewash the "out of the mouth of babes and sucklings" biblical phrase as a figure of speech, in order to prove it takes research not sincerity and desire to understand the scriptures. I just wish King Agag would pull the gag out of his mouth. This looks really lame.
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WordWolf
Sky4it:
Just so you know,
that letter was written in the late 80's and was current when the breakups were
taking place.
There's been over a decade since then.
We've certainly learned a lot about errors and mistakes in pfal.
Perhaps JAL has learned some of them, too-perhaps some of the SAME errors,
including the "first century" thing and the "mogfot" thing.
I don't know one way or the other.
I DO know, however,
that it's VERY sloppy of him to not have revised that accordingly when he had
the chance and done revisions,
if he no longer believes that.
So, I'm not sure he still teaches or believes that.
I'm not sure he DOESN'T, either.
He'll have to speak up for himself,
or someone will have to cite a recent teaching/quote on that from him.
I figured you'd want to know that, since the letter makes more sense when
you know it's fundamentally the same letter written long ago.
(Still error, but a bit more understandable that way.)
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Raf
MJ,
Thank you for your reply to my post, but part of your reply is the reason we keep having blow-ups. You said something like, "why don't we just excuse Martindale..." implying that this is a reasonable outcome of my argument. You must have missed the line where I said...
I am well aware of what you are saying regarding Martindale. I have never contradicted it.
But let's stick with the point: does a divorced person have no right to be a minister? That's what it sounds like when you bring up the fact that JAL and JS are divorced.
Excuse adultery? Please, I did nothing of the kind.
With that said, the rest of your post gives a lot of food for thought.
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Steve Lortz
mj412 - I can imagine the feelings of disappointment and betrayal that prompt you to vent the way you do regarding John Lynn and CES. They disappointed and betrayed me, too, as well as many others.
It's true, they mistakenly think they're different from TWI because they can point to a few doctrinal differences. But their basic attitude, that they can make the Word fit their theology by manipulating interpretations, is identical to TWI's. They have set themselves above the Word of God. That's a dangerous place to be... VERY dangerous in all sorts of ways.
Back in the New Testament days, the Pharisees set themselves above the Word of God by teaching that Levitical laws governing temple activities should be extended to everyone in the whole country of Judaea. We see what happened with them. Jesus said they were the blind leading the blind.
The principals of CES set themselves above the Word of God by wrongly imagining they can "rightly divide" it. They, too, are the blind leading the blind.
They are very INTO picking the motes out of our eyes. After all, why should we pay them if they don't provide us with that service? But they DO NOT SEE the planks in their own eyes.
The problems CES (as opposed to TWI) has faced in the area of sex have been problems of legalism, rather than license. After John's divorce from Pat, he wasn't running around getting whatever he could. He was agonizing over whether it would be sinful, for him as a divorced man, to ever date again.
There was a faction in the Living Word Fellowship that wanted to call the people who were shouldering responsibilities "deacons". The "leadership team" was dead set against that, though. They felt that calling them "deacons" would disqualify John because of I Timothy 3:12 and his divorce.
Yes, mj412, in their heart attitude, CES is still like TWI. Yes, they still err in the catagory of sex and marriage. But they aren't practicing the adultery that ran rampant in TWI. In that respect, they flip-flopped 180 degrees, to the exact opposite direction.
I'm thankful for your life, mj412. I know you've been deeply hurt. Stick around. We'll see if we can't keep that sort of thing from happening again.
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
WordWolf - You brought up the idea that the letter Jeff posted might be sooo old that it no longer accurately reflects John Lynn's thinking.
Hey, Jeff. Why did you post such a stale letter?
Or is it John's thinking that's stale?
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
mj412 - You're right when you point out that John's appeal to the dead Wierwille's approval for what John is doing sounds insincere. John did stretch his post TWI fledgling wings by trashing Wierwille and passing a coffee can (no wicker horn of plenty for John) for donations.
Love,
Steve
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J0nny Ling0
Regardless of when the letter was written, I think it was a nice letter...
Jonny Lingo
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mj412
it runs through my mind if that is not the very reason the martindales stay married .
We tend to forget that all of us struggled a great deal with "what happened" and in spite of we all are christians trying to mend our life with God and one another.
I chose to stay single after divorce. Do I think Paul says I would be happier? yes and I believe it to be a true statement from the bible. It does say a husband of ONE wife. I think we understand why even in our very liberal culture with rampant sex it is something to talk about and a distraction from the cause.
If a man can not run his own house well can he lead people well?
I do not know if it is wrong or not I do wrong nearly every single day and still wake up every day ready to meet my maker.
I get judged often for not finding a husband and being a single woman as well. I know God loves us and to be in a miserable marriage that is a lie of a life together is not how He interacts with me. I think Jesus said go in peace when he healed people and I know my Lord is a gentle spirit who does not care for strife and envy and all the trouble a bad or unloving marriage can bring a person. should he be a decon? this would NOT be an issue with me. I know John L wanted his marriage to work and tried for many years . John S. is also divorced and had small children, why is his mess always dismissed? He also addmitted to adultry while in the way and was divorced post way that roll boy always comes out like a shiny coin and no one gets on his crap. why is that hmmm? just curious .
they will scream grace in your face. hmmpf most christians will with at least on area of their life I have found out including me with the smoking and not being as organized as I should/could be.
the personal prophecy advertisments and shows are an issue with me tho. Alot of my distaste comes from the fellowship I was in and I do not want to go into details but they wanted to be ordained by CES and it really felt like the group changed and fell apart when that was on the platform due to what CES dictated had to be done in a certain way. I think Mark gets too intellectual in his writings and goes overboard with over thinking ideas and it stretches beyond my comfort zone on what the bible may say. he is like a tiny Matindale with a harness held by his prophetress wife, hehehe sorry Mark. hah if no one gets that it isnt displacement I enjoyed Martindales scenes in the day hahah . Well we can all pray .
Raf when I went back to twi the second time I stood aloof and learned and I didnt get hurt like you are with CES for the most part.. but I wanted more and I put more into the fellowship with CES and yes I do feel strongly about how it can draw people away from Gods will and into their thing . I do not know the motives I just know it cant be good.
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oldiesman
MJ412,
I didn't quite understand this statement. Are you referring to the fact that they continue to commit adultery, or the fact that they don't preach against fornication? Both? Neither?
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sky4it
Wordwolf:
and others:
Thats a noteworthy point with one execption, somebody posted it here with someones presumed authority?
:)--> Did it therefore bring us up to speed on current matters?
With respect to the stuff that occured in the 1980's: I can't believe someone did a "research paper" on wether Adultry was wrong or not. That really sounds retarded. Most of us that went to Sunday School heard it was wrong before we even new what sex was. Then the cue ball "not taught like since the first century thing shows up", and it dwarfs the writings of "Martin Luther". It just sounds so idiotic.
I also have a question. Was that "not taught since the first century thing" a quote in a book, in the Pfal class, or just simply a line floating around? I really dont remember.
Raf- Any thoughts?
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oldiesman
How many different Christian denominations are there in the U.S., and how many of them may be accused of engaging in this type of activity, if one wishes to engage in that type of accusation? Most, if not all, I presume.
I prefer to look on CES' doctrinal teachings as beliefs that you or I may or may not concur with; rather than they must have some sinister evil selfish motive behind it ...
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Lifted Up
In view of the practices and pronouncements at that time to the contrary (i.e. adultrey is not a sin) , I think it was some independent thinking by someone who wanted to show from the Bible that adultrey IS wrong. It hasnt been the only time the obvious has been needed, as it is not so obvious to all. Obviously in TWI it WASNT obvious to all, including, of course, some leadership. Perhaps a better way to put it would be that you can't believe such a paper was needed.
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Raf
I think it was in the PFAL class (not the book). It is certainly in The Way: Living in Love by Elena Scott Whiteside. It's also a bunch of hooey. Why anyone would appeal to it today is beyond me.
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mj412
I say continue on well that is wrong because I have no doubt they wouldnt be forthcoming and I have no clue what their day to day current activities may be and it is a much smaller closed sect of inner circle who trust and take care of one another.
let me explain where I was coming from for you OM.
After he was fired John L. was roaming the country saving the souls from the evil of twi and recruiting them into his heart of love and leadership he was using the storys and drama from the victims in twi. it was soap opera who knew who and pure drama and it worked. fine. A few years later both he and John S, admit to being involved in the same type of activity (of course by satan and with the tears whatever ) while in the way. HMMM after the people had bowed and joined up and raised their arms in worship of course.
drama agin this time to prove they know the pain of twi and can relate to the sinners they now lord over, how repentance is key to their life and to explain the fact both of their marriages fell apart what with being good christian men they had all corners of accusations covered . If they had a mission of truth and honesty and really had the courage to be honest why when they took a stand against twi did they not metion their own crap which stunk just as bad if not worse along with their tune of the evil way? no they covered till they had enough people to pay their nut and got what they wanted a hard core following that would understand their rough life and give them the pity and stand up for them against any accusation of wrong doing or doubt of their true love. hence the birth of the very important core of their cult which fell from twi into their arms blindly going forth standing with those who speak the truth. the special ones you know who really love God and those who speak His truth in love no matter what the gainsayers may claim about them. lol . people following people has been the norm for this group and always will be. they worked the crowd they played and they won many by manipulating . it is stronger and more manipulating than twi ever was. it is a cult built from a cult following with players that would sooner die for the cause than leave the only life they have ever known.
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Galen
Steve Lortz-
“The problems CES (as opposed to TWI) has faced in the area of sex have been problems of legalism, rather than license. After John's divorce from Pat, he wasn't running around . . . He was agonizing over whether it would be sinful, for him as a divorced man, to ever date again.”
That sounds like what we saw.
“Yes, mj412, in their heart attitude, CES is still like TWI. Yes, they still err in the category of sex and marriage. But they aren't practicing the adultery that ran rampant in TWI. In that respect, they flip-flopped 180 degrees, to the exact opposite direction.”
They err by not committing adultery, but rather because a leader agonizes over whether or not it would be right for him to re-marry?
I would think it was a good thing, for a leader to stop and think and really be committed and in full support from the scriptures before he began any large undertaking. Would I be that agonized over the decision? No. But I am not him. Neither are you.
To my observation, many of the CES crew are overly sensitized to the issue of spiritual-abuse and leadership taking un-due advantage over their congregants. That is okay. For my blood they are a little too overly-sensitive to the topic, but so what.
MJ-
“it just galls me to no end that ces will scream error out of one corner of their mouth to please the people with their white washed talk, yet continue on doing what they want regarding sex outside of marriage . to me the latter is far more damaging and worse on a soul who wants to believe in their leadership. in fact it is crushing.”
Do you mean by taking a leave of absence from the ministry to enable a leader to court a possible future wife?
I totally missed how that is “. . . far more damaging and worse on a soul who wants to believe in their leadership. in fact it is crushing.” Could you explain?
Oldie-
“How many different Christian denominations are there in the U.S., and how many of them may be accused of engaging in this type of activity, if one wishes to engage in that type of accusation? Most, if not all, I presume.”
I agree.
Raised a Baptist, spent time as a member of a Methodist church, currently we deal with Ana-Baptists (Mennonites) on occasion with our Homeschool curriculum. This does describe their dealings. I have debated this issue with Roman Catholic leaders over the years, and they tend to fully support and encourage the changing of doctrines to better blend in with society’s changing moars.
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mj412
John S. was asked to write the paper on sex by twi. he was an employee at the time... they disagreed on it and refused to put in into publication .
John S. started to get paranoid for his very life ! John S. sent out copies to others outside of the research dept in case something happened to him . John S. hooked up with John L. and the war began ....
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mj412
I think I do look at this alot differently than you guys .
leave of absent how nice a wording of course we all need time to reflect on life and God.
THAT IS NOT WHAT happened.
John Lynn wrote a letter saying how sorry he was for hurting a member in the body of Christ blah blah blah HE GOT BUSTED PEOPLE!!!!
HE WAS CONFRONTED for sexual misdeeds by CES because somone complained about his life style hence the dam apology .
they punished him his own dam company punished him too here this poor sucker is paying their way in life on his lies and deciet tuittion to college travelling kids camps all of it and they VOTE him out for a year as PUNISHMENT.
to which he agreed , of course he did,something had to be done because someone had something against his mess for real and the mission for God must carry on you know I mean lifes depended on it esp. Mark and Karen Ann and John S. who is now living quite well in the CES gravy train.
I wet my pants with laughter when they sent that letter out.
whoever John Lynn "hurt" must have been happy with that result Im sure that gave her a easy ticket to the inner cirlce of love and forever faithful of CES and that is all a true cult head esp. one who is willing to be sexualy abused by its top leader ever really wants in life isnt it?
it was all good, poor john with his updates on how he tutored for the sat that year in his first and only real job in life yeah Im sure that is what he truly lived on. give me a break he has money his family had money and he was floating around being a single guy with a life without those pesky believers for a change> IT WAS A PAID VACATION > and it gave people the faithful one a chance to listen to Mark as the leader and loving one without mr. obnoxious cult leader taking center stage every minute. and it worked Mark stood for God through it all even John Lynn can you guys not see this at all? John knew he didnt want to work forever and Mark needed to rise up to lead the people kind of hard as you know John Lynn was becon of hope for so many who had left the way now they were ready , john go away for awhile let Mark be the chosen one of God for a minute for the people of course ... take some time off bro... notice now John L. works much less and is enjoying his married life and Mark is going full speed ahead? yeah they do not think about the future and how to make money . you guys are just stupid sometimes. Im sorry if Im bitter your stupid.
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Tom Strange
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