Fool me once, shame on you! Fool me twice, shame on me. I don't care how different the message is. It is still the same message just updated and prettyfied. NO THANKS.
I must say that John in the begining of the end of TWI 1 had some tapes circulated about the adulterous lifestyle of LCM and what was not accurate about PFAL. Those tape were very informative and exposed some TWI crap. What he has done since then, I know not.
Everything about the JAL letter aside, I have been thinking about you lately and was glad to see your post here. I hope you and the Mrs. are both well, happy and yes, blessed.
I will join with Radar to "derail" this thread, wishing Jeff well. He is one of the people I got to e-know when I first came onto Waydale several years ago. In fact, a thread of his about trust was the first thread I posted to.
Not that I have no interest in the thread topic; the letter that is. I am just not sure what I would say now. My experience with John Lynn in TWI was early...getting involved during his Indy rule.
I have had a lot of time on my hands this week and thought I would come back to the old "spot" for a bit.
I finally broke down and had sinus surgery on Tuesday and that has had me very house bound.
I am looking forward to getting back to work in the A.M.
Life is very good here in Indy. I love working full time ministry and raising my two boys in it.
They are getting old. One is 17 (and driving!!)and the other is coming up on 16.
We are running a Teens n 20s fellowship in our home every Sunday for about 30 - 50 "kids."
My wonderful wife, Michele, cooks them all dinner and then we have praise n worship and a teaching with lots fo hang time. We have a lot of 20s that can really teach the Word in a powerful way.
It's awesome!
:)-->
I have been working hard for the past year to help build two new outreach websites.
I won't even "go there" as far as the line about the Vicster being proud - I think I handled that adequately the last time this turgid piece of crap was posted here.
But how about "In regard to your involvement in The Way , you could choose to be a victim..."
Ah, yes, that's our choice, EITHER to remain pathetic, pouting, implacable VICTIMS - OR we can come scraping and bowing and begging the reknowned MAN OF GOD, to PLEASE share some of his incredible insights with us.
To quote our esteemed vice president, "Go #$%& yourself."
Wake up and smell the decade. We're no longer steeped in the counter-cultured, cult-prone 70s.
Jim Jones, Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggert, and about a gazillion other half-assed perdition pimps have all had their moment in the sun and have gone by the boards. As did V.P. Wierwille and his ministry.
What could another ....ant, spin-off bunch of Bible thumpers have to offer that is not already being handled - far more efficiently and with far better established controls and oversight - by the 10's of thousands of denominational and non-denominational churches already covering the landscape?
MY advice for all the ex-way-spinoff-meisters is still the same. Go get a REAL farking job and do something productive for a change. You may even get some REAL insights into what life is REALLY about.
quote:In regard to your involvement in The Way , you could choose to be a victim, but may I suggest that is not the best perspective. Frederick Douglas, a former slave and then an abolitionist in the time of the Civil War, once said, "The limits of tyrants are prescribed by those whom they oppress." I like to look at my time in The Way in a more positive sense. I want to "eat the fish and spit out the bones."
I recall going to see JAL shortly after his departure from TWI - maybe in 1986 or 87(?). He was recruiting (for lack of a better word) for his new ministry -- going around teaching in different areas. I had heard his tape(s) regarding PoP, Geer, LCM and other things, and was curious to hear what else he had to say.
I will say that the first part of his teaching on "the law of believing" changed my whole way of thinking - and I will always be grateful for that. I was still in TWI, and stayed in for many more years - but the teaching that night began my questioning of all things PFAL.
I spoke to him during the break and he had nothing good to say about VPW. NOTHING! He lambasted him for everything from adultery to wrong teaching. He was downright nasty, IMO. It turned me off to whatever else he had to say that night, and I went home and told hegotout that I'd stick with TWI a bit longer to see if it would get better - because I sure didn't want to be a part of JAL's mission to tear TWI down. To me, it seemed that even if TWI ever taught anything right, JAL was going to prove it wrong. Like I said - that's how I felt at the time.
So when I read what he wrote about VP being proud of what he is doing - I have to shake my head in wonder. It's probably one of the most dishonest things I've ever read after hearing JAL's opinion of VP's life and ministry.
I would tend to think that there are some ulterior motives here. There are a lot of people still steeped in TWI's doctrines who haven't ventured to a church or spin-off group since leaving TWI. Perhaps his touting of VP's pride might attract those people who are still searching for a TWI-like ministry. Name-dropping was always one of John's long-suits - again, IMO.
I wish him well - but wouldn't follow him unless I saw visable handwriting from God Almighty on my wall and heard angels singing telling me to do so.
quote:So when I read what he wrote about VP being proud of what he is doing - I have to shake my head in wonder. It's probably one of the most dishonest things I've ever read after hearing JAL's opinion of VP's life and ministry. ... I wish him well - but wouldn't follow him unless I saw visable handwriting from God Almighty on my wall and heard angels singing telling me to do so.
My take on this is when JAL first started his own group, he was much more personally and emotionally disturbed about events in twi and his own removal/departure, thus the unrelenting negatives about Victor Paul Wierwille at that time. Fast forward a few years, and now he sees that lots of what was taught in twi was accurate, obviously by their own teachings in CES, and therefore, has a more respectable view than before, at least about some of the doctrines taught.
I get some things from CES; tapes and such. I too am leary of following them ... but keeping in contact doesn't hurt if you still believe in some of the goodies we were taught in twi. They don't engage in financial pressure, and do teach and preach that adultery and fornication are ungodly, something that twi still hasn't done adequately. Their newsletter is free of charge.
quote:Hi Jeff...hope you're doing well. Tell John Lynn that he's welcome to come in here to "chat" with us anytime...of course, we are not sitting quietly in our seats, listening to him pontificate from a pulpit.
Damn, I couldn't have said it better.
Don't get me wrong, I've always liked JL. He's got a good sense of humor and alway treated me well when I worked on staff. But UH brings up a great point. We're here. Don't send us a form letter. Come on over and talk, JL, if you want to talk. We're 50 years old and we don't sit on the floor at anyone's (clay) feet anymore.
I've known JAL for many years...He told me personally, that he has never had a real job before and that teaching the bible is the only thing he knows how to do. If that's the ONLY reason that he does what he does, it's a sorry a$$ excuse for being a "preacher".
This diatribe about choosing to be a victim...I believe this is part of his suspicious affiliation with "Momentus". You've all heard about Momentus, haven't you? All three (JAL, Graeser, Shoenheit) have been involved with it, have promoted and defended it. I guess because of all the negative results that have occurred in the lives of "Momentus grads", CES has distanced itself from it in recent years.
Momentus is a revised version of "Springlife", which is a derivative of the old EST training. It's a high pressure "seminar" in which people are reduced to screaming fits and deep sorrow. This "seminar" promotes a twisted and perverted view of "repentance", amoung other things. Momentus training employs classic brainwashing techniques and "switch and bait" gimmicks. I personally know of marriages that have been destroyed because of it and numerous folks who are still in therapy after taking Momentus. One of the big concepts promoted by the Momentus folks is the idea of choosing not to be a victim...
I like others, checked out CES years and years ago...watching all the old waybrains hugging and crying at the CES meeting I attended, reminded me of a heroine addict who just discovered methadone. Same church, different pew. No thanks John...but you might consider talking to LCM, he has recently discovered what it's like to find a real job for the first time.
I think JAL is getting a bad rap on the "victim" line. He's not talking about whether or not anyone was victimized. He was talking about "what are you going to do from this point forward?"
quote: I am more aware than most of the grievous abuses laid upon many of God’s precious people when they were in The Way . Perhaps you are one who was so abused. The point is that now the choice is yours as to how you see your past involvement in The Way...
In regard to your involvement in The Way , you could choose to be a victim, but may I suggest that is not the best perspective. Frederick Douglas, a former slave and then an abolitionist in the time of the Civil War, once said, "The limits of tyrants are prescribed by those whom they oppress." I like to look at my time in The Way in a more positive sense. I want to "eat the fish and spit out the bones."
He's not talking about the past. He's not talking about your "complicity" in being victimized. He's talking about the future, and in my opinion, what he's saying about it (as a generality, individual experiences may vary) is healthy.
Thanks for the input Hairy. Yep, Momentous was a bizarre and colossal mistake by CES. One that they will likely never admit. I live near the headquarters for Mementous or whatever they call it now so I am somewhat familiar.
Here's some of the information I put together about Momentus.
They threatened the magazine with libel until I told them I was unfazed by their threats, and a judge would hardly think the information was biased when there was provided testimonials from their website in the information the magazine has on the group.
Well, this may be more of a derail than was expected, but any mention of "Momentus" warrants it IMO. For the sake of the people who attend or participate in CES activities, I hope CES has backed WAY off Momentus.
Like Mark S. I live in the area where it was started and they left a burnt trail of people in Northern California and I've only spoken about it to people who were never in the Way.
I find the fact that some of the former "top" leaders of the Way felt compelled to take yet another class like Momentus after leaving is sadly amusing. Free Advert: If anyone still feels the need to take a class to help them get honest with themselves I have a real short one I can run for them, cheap. I promise you'll cry, scream, have breakthroughs and serious personal examination equivalent to a good enema. And that's just the first session BEFORE you get tied up. Just call 1-800-THETRUTHHURTS for more information. Don't worry, everything will be fine. Trust me.
Insert :)-->, back to our regularly scheduled year-old message of Good News from Someone Who Really Really Cares.
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Don'tFenceMeIn
Good Job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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WhiteDove
Well Jeff that went well!
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imbus
Fool me once, shame on you! Fool me twice, shame on me. I don't care how different the message is. It is still the same message just updated and prettyfied. NO THANKS.
I must say that John in the begining of the end of TWI 1 had some tapes circulated about the adulterous lifestyle of LCM and what was not accurate about PFAL. Those tape were very informative and exposed some TWI crap. What he has done since then, I know not.
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Radar OReilly
Hi Jeff,
Everything about the JAL letter aside, I have been thinking about you lately and was glad to see your post here. I hope you and the Mrs. are both well, happy and yes, blessed.
Radar
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Lifted Up
I will join with Radar to "derail" this thread, wishing Jeff well. He is one of the people I got to e-know when I first came onto Waydale several years ago. In fact, a thread of his about trust was the first thread I posted to.
Not that I have no interest in the thread topic; the letter that is. I am just not sure what I would say now. My experience with John Lynn in TWI was early...getting involved during his Indy rule.
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Jeff USAF RET
Hey Radar!
Hey Lifted Up!
It's good to "see" you folks again.
I have had a lot of time on my hands this week and thought I would come back to the old "spot" for a bit.
I finally broke down and had sinus surgery on Tuesday and that has had me very house bound.
I am looking forward to getting back to work in the A.M.
Life is very good here in Indy. I love working full time ministry and raising my two boys in it.
They are getting old. One is 17 (and driving!!)and the other is coming up on 16.
We are running a Teens n 20s fellowship in our home every Sunday for about 30 - 50 "kids."
My wonderful wife, Michele, cooks them all dinner and then we have praise n worship and a teaching with lots fo hang time. We have a lot of 20s that can really teach the Word in a powerful way.
It's awesome!
I have been working hard for the past year to help build two new outreach websites.
http://www.BiblicalUnitarian.com
CES bought that one last December from the original owner and then I had the idea to start another one for all of the other stuff CES offers.
http://www.TruthOrTradition.com
Would love your feedback!
Well, MUCH love to ya!
Gopher Boy....(Not that John Lynn even knows or asked me to post his letter here, I was just bored!).
LOL
May we all keep healing, forgiving, and moving forward with our eyes wide open!
Jeff n Michele
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def59
And everyone, include JaL, John S. and Jeff can go to www.aomin.org. It can tackle your biblicalunitarian dogma.
Tell JAL, no thanks, been through the blender once too often.
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dmiller
Ahhhhh. Then you are one smooth dude!
;)-->
Heading over to check out the site you mentioned.
:)-->
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Cynic
Good link, Def.
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Cynic
Links to some relevant articles appear at this page:
http://aomin.org/General.html
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gammacoffey
ex-way vision? (coined in 97)
the real me? (coined in the late 70's, early 80s)
living in the eye of the storm? (coined I believe in the 80s)
yep either someone is tooting their own horn or there is nothing new under the sun. We hear ya John. Blessings
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George Aar
I won't even "go there" as far as the line about the Vicster being proud - I think I handled that adequately the last time this turgid piece of crap was posted here.
But how about "In regard to your involvement in The Way , you could choose to be a victim..."
Ah, yes, that's our choice, EITHER to remain pathetic, pouting, implacable VICTIMS - OR we can come scraping and bowing and begging the reknowned MAN OF GOD, to PLEASE share some of his incredible insights with us.
To quote our esteemed vice president, "Go #$%& yourself."
Wake up and smell the decade. We're no longer steeped in the counter-cultured, cult-prone 70s.
Jim Jones, Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggert, and about a gazillion other half-assed perdition pimps have all had their moment in the sun and have gone by the boards. As did V.P. Wierwille and his ministry.
What could another ....ant, spin-off bunch of Bible thumpers have to offer that is not already being handled - far more efficiently and with far better established controls and oversight - by the 10's of thousands of denominational and non-denominational churches already covering the landscape?
MY advice for all the ex-way-spinoff-meisters is still the same. Go get a REAL farking job and do something productive for a change. You may even get some REAL insights into what life is REALLY about.
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oldiesman
Excellent perspective. Thanks John.
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Hope R.
I recall going to see JAL shortly after his departure from TWI - maybe in 1986 or 87(?). He was recruiting (for lack of a better word) for his new ministry -- going around teaching in different areas. I had heard his tape(s) regarding PoP, Geer, LCM and other things, and was curious to hear what else he had to say.
I will say that the first part of his teaching on "the law of believing" changed my whole way of thinking - and I will always be grateful for that. I was still in TWI, and stayed in for many more years - but the teaching that night began my questioning of all things PFAL.
I spoke to him during the break and he had nothing good to say about VPW. NOTHING! He lambasted him for everything from adultery to wrong teaching. He was downright nasty, IMO. It turned me off to whatever else he had to say that night, and I went home and told hegotout that I'd stick with TWI a bit longer to see if it would get better - because I sure didn't want to be a part of JAL's mission to tear TWI down. To me, it seemed that even if TWI ever taught anything right, JAL was going to prove it wrong. Like I said - that's how I felt at the time.
So when I read what he wrote about VP being proud of what he is doing - I have to shake my head in wonder. It's probably one of the most dishonest things I've ever read after hearing JAL's opinion of VP's life and ministry.
I would tend to think that there are some ulterior motives here. There are a lot of people still steeped in TWI's doctrines who haven't ventured to a church or spin-off group since leaving TWI. Perhaps his touting of VP's pride might attract those people who are still searching for a TWI-like ministry. Name-dropping was always one of John's long-suits - again, IMO.
I wish him well - but wouldn't follow him unless I saw visable handwriting from God Almighty on my wall and heard angels singing telling me to do so.
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Tom Strange
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oldiesman
My take on this is when JAL first started his own group, he was much more personally and emotionally disturbed about events in twi and his own removal/departure, thus the unrelenting negatives about Victor Paul Wierwille at that time. Fast forward a few years, and now he sees that lots of what was taught in twi was accurate, obviously by their own teachings in CES, and therefore, has a more respectable view than before, at least about some of the doctrines taught.
I get some things from CES; tapes and such. I too am leary of following them ... but keeping in contact doesn't hurt if you still believe in some of the goodies we were taught in twi. They don't engage in financial pressure, and do teach and preach that adultery and fornication are ungodly, something that twi still hasn't done adequately. Their newsletter is free of charge.
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Jim
Damn, I couldn't have said it better.
Don't get me wrong, I've always liked JL. He's got a good sense of humor and alway treated me well when I worked on staff. But UH brings up a great point. We're here. Don't send us a form letter. Come on over and talk, JL, if you want to talk. We're 50 years old and we don't sit on the floor at anyone's (clay) feet anymore.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I've known JAL for many years...He told me personally, that he has never had a real job before and that teaching the bible is the only thing he knows how to do. If that's the ONLY reason that he does what he does, it's a sorry a$$ excuse for being a "preacher".
This diatribe about choosing to be a victim...I believe this is part of his suspicious affiliation with "Momentus". You've all heard about Momentus, haven't you? All three (JAL, Graeser, Shoenheit) have been involved with it, have promoted and defended it. I guess because of all the negative results that have occurred in the lives of "Momentus grads", CES has distanced itself from it in recent years.
Momentus is a revised version of "Springlife", which is a derivative of the old EST training. It's a high pressure "seminar" in which people are reduced to screaming fits and deep sorrow. This "seminar" promotes a twisted and perverted view of "repentance", amoung other things. Momentus training employs classic brainwashing techniques and "switch and bait" gimmicks. I personally know of marriages that have been destroyed because of it and numerous folks who are still in therapy after taking Momentus. One of the big concepts promoted by the Momentus folks is the idea of choosing not to be a victim...
I like others, checked out CES years and years ago...watching all the old waybrains hugging and crying at the CES meeting I attended, reminded me of a heroine addict who just discovered methadone. Same church, different pew. No thanks John...but you might consider talking to LCM, he has recently discovered what it's like to find a real job for the first time.
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oldiesman
Whether or not one has or hasn't taken Momentus is irrelevant; the fact is, one doesn't have to engage in victim mentality if one doesn't wish to.
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Raf
I think JAL is getting a bad rap on the "victim" line. He's not talking about whether or not anyone was victimized. He was talking about "what are you going to do from this point forward?"
He's not talking about the past. He's not talking about your "complicity" in being victimized. He's talking about the future, and in my opinion, what he's saying about it (as a generality, individual experiences may vary) is healthy.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Thanks for the input Hairy. Yep, Momentous was a bizarre and colossal mistake by CES. One that they will likely never admit. I live near the headquarters for Mementous or whatever they call it now so I am somewhat familiar.
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pjroberge
Here's some of the information I put together about Momentus.
They threatened the magazine with libel until I told them I was unfazed by their threats, and a judge would hardly think the information was biased when there was provided testimonials from their website in the information the magazine has on the group.
http://www.excultworld.com/momentus/momentus.htm
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socks
Well, this may be more of a derail than was expected, but any mention of "Momentus" warrants it IMO. For the sake of the people who attend or participate in CES activities, I hope CES has backed WAY off Momentus.
Like Mark S. I live in the area where it was started and they left a burnt trail of people in Northern California and I've only spoken about it to people who were never in the Way.
I find the fact that some of the former "top" leaders of the Way felt compelled to take yet another class like Momentus after leaving is sadly amusing. Free Advert: If anyone still feels the need to take a class to help them get honest with themselves I have a real short one I can run for them, cheap. I promise you'll cry, scream, have breakthroughs and serious personal examination equivalent to a good enema. And that's just the first session BEFORE you get tied up. Just call 1-800-THETRUTHHURTS for more information. Don't worry, everything will be fine. Trust me.
Insert
:)-->, back to our regularly scheduled year-old message of Good News from Someone Who Really Really Cares.
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excathedra
oldiesman you always have something to say about what you perceive as the "victim" mentality
i have no idea what your problem is, but i think you should take momentus
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