Here is some of the TIMELINE of how Christian Educational Services came to be.
This is taken from the link given below.
1943-1986
Mark Graeser, John Lynn, and John Schoenheit were born and raised in relatively normal American families, graduated from normal American colleges (Grinnell, Kenyon and UNC, respectively) and became relatively normal American young men.
In the late 60's and early 70's they each became associated with The Way International in New Knoxville, OH because they were impressed with the depth of research and the quality of teaching they found there. Each became progressively more involved, assuming a variety of teaching and leadership positions up until 1986.
John Schoenheit had been an integral and well-respected member of the Research Team at The Way headquarters for several years, known particularly for his work in the Old Testament. Little did he think that his 1986 writing of an innocent little research paper reaching an obvious conclusion (adultery is sin) would sound the shot that would be heard 'round The Way world and precipitate a not-so-civil war during which many captives of tradition and tyranny were set free.
By the time the dust had settled, these three amigos formed Christian Educational Services in an attempt to continue what had been good in the teaching and practice of The Way. Since then, CES has been occupied with the difficult and sometimes tedious task of sorting through the rubble, looking for life and meaning in the profound and life-changing experience that was The Way. In the process of our seeking biblical truth and sound Christian character, God has opened many doors of utterance to us around the world and taken us far beyond a ministry to ex-Way members only.
What follows are the significant events in the growth and development of our ministry, offered in the hope of giving you a better sense of where we have come from and where, God willing, we might be going.
Here are the Scriptural Issues about which Christian Educational Services
Differs with The Way International (and other groups who hold to the same doctrine).
1986 October:
The firing of John Schoenheit by The Way International for writing a paper called "Adultery and Fornication: A Biblical Perspective." The paper simply concluded that adultery and fornication were immoral according to the Bible.
1986 November:
The Way Clergy meeting that threatened dismissal for any clergy who had read or distributed John Schoenheit’s paper.
1987 March:
37 page letter sent by John & Pat Lynn, Tom Reahard, Ralph Dubofsky, Robert Belt calling for a convention of all interested parties to discuss ways of restoring The Way to biblical standards. Read a 5 Page letter by John Lynn on this subject.
1987 April 1: The firing of John Lynn by The Way International, presumably for insubordination.
1987 October: 1st Chicago meeting of "American Fellowship Services," the precursor to CES.
1988 June: The following was printed in a national newsletter:
"C.E.S. will have no national membership and we do not intend to interfere with how your local fellowship operates. We want to encourage Bible studies and fellowship, but we don’t want to run your life or living room."
"Christian Educational Services" began with the following initial members: Robert Belt, Ralph Dubofsky, Mark Graeser, John Lynn, Sue Pierce, Tom Reahard and John Schoenheit. The initial Board of Directors included Robert, Ralph, John, Sue and Tom. The CES office was in John Lynn’s house.
1988 August: Mark Graeser presents Rethinking Christology to Apologetic Research Coalition (ARC), an anti-cult group of orthodox Christians. He is first viewed with suspicion but eventually accepted as a Christian brother.
2nd Chicago meeting of "American Fellowship Services"
1988 September: Christian Educational Services officially incorporated in the state of Indiana. Its purpose was to provide Bible teachings by way of books, tapes, periodic newsletters and conferences.
1989 August: John Schoenheit presented paper on "The Dead are Dead" (written by Mark Graeser) to ARC. This marked the end of our association with ARC because our position was not rebutted biblically.
CES purchased its first computer a Macintosh SE and leased a small Minolta copier.
1989 November: Robert Belt and Sue Pierce resigned from the Board. Mark Graeser and John Schoenheit were elected to the Board.
1989: We began sending out four quarterly letters, each consisting of personal sharings, news of activities and teaching itineraries of CES members.
CES also sent out six bi-monthly issues of DIALOGUE , which had a readership of 500.
One national fellowship was held in Chicago in November.
We produced a 24-hour Bible study series "Introduction to God’s Heart" taught by Mark Graeser, John Schoenheit, John Lynn and David Anderson. This was taped May 26-June 4 and became available to the public July 29. By the end of the year, nearly 400 sets had been distributed.
1990: John Lynn continued on a volunteer, non-salaried basis to handle the day by day operation of CES , advised by the Board of Directors about every 3 weeks in a telephone conference call.
John Lynn taught an 18-hour seminar, The Book of Romans .
The first 90-minute bi-monthly teaching tape was produced, to which more than 500 people subscribed. To be able to produce these, CES acquired a tape deck and microphone at a cost of about $500. The first tape was The Christian Family: A Laboratory of Love.
Pat Lynn, who has been working as contract labor, was hired February 1 as a part-time employee, the only CES employee.
CES continued to send a quarterly letter, which by the end of the year went to about 2600 addresses, or approximately 4000 people in all 50 states and the District of Columbia as well as Australia, England, France, Germany, Ghana, Japan, Ireland, Norway, Philippines, Portugal, Scotland, Singapore, South Africa and Uganda.
Our annual Fall meeting was once again in Chicago, and approximately 100 people from across the United States enjoyed the fellowship and the Word of God that was taught.
1991: John Lynn continued to volunteer, non-salaried basis to handle the day-to-day operation of CES
advised by the Board about every 3 weeks in a telephone conference call.
In February, Tom Reahard resigned from the Board.
Pat Lynn completed her second year as the only CES employee, working part-time.
The mailing list increased to 2900 addresses and about 5000 people received the quarterly newsletter.
The first edition of our first book, Is There Death After Life? was published in February.
In June, John Schoenheit completed a 26 hour seminar entitled A Journey Through The Old Testament .
John Lynn traveled to nearly 100 cities in the USA, as well as to England, Ireland, Scotland, Germany, South Africa, Singapore, and the Philippines teaching and making CES materials available. John Schoenheit was able to travel more this year doing weekend meetings in about ten cities, and Mark Graeser also made a couple of trips.
In December we began sending $200 a month to Rodrigo and Judy Limpot in Cebu City, Philippines.
CES continued our policy of giving away materials to those who really wanted them but could not afford to buy them, in particular widows and single parents.
By the end of the year there were 541 subscribers to the bi-monthly tapes and 578 subscribers to DIALOGUE.
1992: The annual CES Fall Fellowship was held October 11-13 at the Airport Holiday Inn in Indianapolis and about 160 folks from coast to coast in the USA attended.
Ralph Dubofsky resigned from the Board.
On February 1, John Schoenheit began work as a full-time employee of CES with full health insurance coverage for him and his family.
In June we produced a six-hour seminar taught by John Schoenheit, entitled The Creation-Evolution Controversy.
In July our second book, titled Speaking the Truth in Love, The Purposes of Christian Educational Services, was published.
In August, we purchased a 1992 Plymouth Mini-van for John Lynn’s travel around the USA.
The annual CES Fall Fellowship was held in September in Indianapolis, and about 175 people from coast to coast in the USA attended. For the first time, we made available Children’s Fellowship.
Pat Lynn completed her third year as the CES secretary, continuing to work part-time. On November 30, Elaine Leonard began working twenty hours per week as a secretary.
We also began making available to people books written by authors other than ourselves.
Although John Lynn received no salary, CES again paid all his travel expenses. Instead of paying him the current U.S. corporate mileage rate for his business driving, as we had done in the past, we secured a Mastercard for him to use for gasoline and for him and John Schoenheit to use for other travel expenses, and for the purchase of research books, etc.
In November, an unused porch in John’s home was renovated to expand the Home Office.
John Lynn continued to travel as extensively as he has in the past and John Schoenheit traveled more.
_____________________________________
To read the rest of this TIMELINE, click on the link below. It will have MANY more hyper links to key artilces linked on it.
I have a couple questions for you and 2 opinions. I wasnt around in the years you speak of so I dont know what happened.
Since this guy had to write a paper on adultery saying it was a sin and others took offense to it,was adultry an accepted practice in The Way prior to this letter and after is this correct?
Or was it just tolerated?
Either way, just that issue is a problem. How can people that are so "profoundly" indebted to the teaching of the word miss that one anyway, when you can find it on every street and corner in the reading that exist in the scripture? I don't get that one at all.
I also had a serious issue to how the book of Job was handled, at least from what someone told me.
Again, it never bothered me half as much, what Way people had , as what I didn't think they wanted. If ex or splinter groups dont address such issues, I dont see how running the same format could be very beneficial, it would simply be re-thinking "Frankenstien". In addition, the "wrong doctrine" or missing stuff, make whats good kinda rotten to those who went thru it and how do you deal with that?
The adultry is wrong concept is so basic, that if you cant pick that up in a few weeks, it really makes you wonder, whats with that?
oh boy how manipulating he stops where he did in his little report of CES. if you look at their page you will also notice a stop of the time line. it is sugar coated where they leave out a lots and I mean a whole lot of serious insanity.
YEARS and I mean decades are left out of trouble and debate and serious abuse and allegations and divorce and upset and division within the CES group . Both John S. and John Lynn are divorced , John lynn was fired by his own company and brought back a year later when things calmed down about what he did. the rules of the leadership and their special page and oath to CES are not metioned hmmm... the difference and the only difference is CES is much more sly and sneaky and full of only those with ears to hear secrets . they got good at it when twi fell and learned .
Twi got a little to bold with the game, CES knows better.
geez whatever people want to float their boat in. anything for the good of the cause .
You are very right! How that got missed and then accepted is beyond me. I never knew it was going on but then I was "just" a Military Twig Coordinator and the sex stuff was going on behind the "leadership" scenes.
quote:John lynn was fired by his own company and brought back a year later when things calmed down about what he did.
This is revisionist nonsense.
John stepped down because he and the others thought it was best. He took a year off from ministry, and all said from the beginning that it would be a year off. They didn't wait for things to "calm down." Any Greasespot reader knows that it can take decades for something to "calm down."
And if I recall correctly, there was plenty of debate both then and now as to whether JAL even did anything so egregious that it merited him taking the year off.
it was decided he would be punished in such a way . sugar coat it anyway you like Raf to keep the followers calm and ignorant and believing in the group, they sure as hell did and you clearly bought it hook line and sinker.
obviously some thought something needed to be done about what he did or it would not have come down to that... it was a smoke screen to cover him and make CES look like of course they are not about just what John lynn said and does when he was busted.
John wrote a letter saying he would agree with their decision .
Im sure it was a rough ride seeing how he was the one who founded CES and had played the major force up until then, including bringing John S. and Mark G. on the payroll.
calling me names and accusing me of being paranoid? what am I afraid of exactly?
I speak the truth and I ask you you prove different.
oh just do what you do and spend your time as king of internet posting for kicks. whatever . this is not fun for me as it is for you. if you ever recover from the cult you may find out just why .
but untill then continue on with your know it all, arrogant, judgemental , I have friends on the internet and fellowship with CES mission .
quote:the difference and the only difference is CES is much more sly and sneaky and full of only those with ears to hear secrets . they got good at it when twi fell and learned .
I apologize, MJ. You can have your judgment seat back.
That isnt judgement that is my opinion . so answer the question Raf instead of this little quip and snip game .
what am I afraid of what am I paranoid of ? hmm? you wear me down and I will stop posting to avoid your game that doesnt make me paranoid or wrong just tired of the games your playing with me.
why is CES that important to you you have to get on me because I see things alot differently or are you taking this personaly because CES means alot to you ? Why ?
Do you honestly believe JAL needs to rally people to his cause to get them over here to defend his integrity? That CES followers feel AFRAID to use the Internet? Or message boards. Because if you really feel that way, that's paranoia. It's not based on anything resembling reality.
But I'll tell you what: I'll rescind my paranoia comment and apologize for it. I'm sorry I said "paranoia."
Instead, I'll say this: If you really, really feel that way...
did you read his interview on Pats site as I suggested ,about how he wants to talk to folks face to face and doesnt like the internet?
no?
well that is where my judgement or opinion comes from and it speaks on how John Lynn bull dozes folks with personal crap and who knows who if he gets desperate enough and with us old time ex-wafers up against his crap we hear differnt than the nice guy helping the Lord out act.
Raf. he is a great actor always has been , does he care about people ? I think he cares more about his mission than people just like twi. and yes that is my opinion call it whatever you like.
YES YES YES
I think he rallies people for the good of CES, that is how he founded his group . by talking trash about TWI and bringing the lost and confused to his "side" Raf it was a freaking war and he was po about being fired.
ask me if I thought it was wrong .
i do not know if it was wrong or right .
but he does do that has done that and will do that, always has, may always.
it is his gig man he has that right , he truly thinks he is a super duper man of God saving the weak and hurt ones from harm
maybe he is. people are what you need them to be for the most part.
I don't think, for a second, that JAL needs any help defending his positions on message boards, or that he would ask for any help doing such. By and large, I have found that these guys don't care all that much about what's said here. He would sooner ignore all this than call for reinforcements.
As for rallying people to CES: yes, of course that's what he does. He's always done that.
Once again, MJ, our blow up is based more on misunderstanding each other than understanding. Forgive me for my part in that, and let's both keep in mind for the next time we have a blow up.
ya know what my kid lost a very expensive cell phone a couple of months ago and I had to spend a couple of hundred dollars to replace it and we fought for three weeks .
as I was reading this she put the lost cell on my desk . IM still paying off the one I had to buy to replace it .
so I was reading your post the quote thing and got confused and deleted whatever.
After reading the JAL letter, it really gave me the hebe jeebies. I got some serious problems with it and all post that on the "open letter from John lynn thread" later. For starters it dont look very "open", if the guy has you posting letters and hes not around to answer the people in this rooms comments.
Actually, I never knew JAL when he was in TWI but I did speak to him on the phone along with John Schoenheit in the late 80's after they left. They both sincerely desire to help people with the Word of God and JAL and JS both respond to my emails when I email them. Not right away, but they always have. These guys are busy building a ministry. I don't know what to say to those who were offended by JAL. If it was during TWI, we were all judgemental then. We were taught that way. After that, I thought the man was the nicest guy I ever wanted to know. But I realize people are entitled to their opinions even about other people.
I, for one, have found a lasting peace in the form of what could be termed an ex-Way group. Patterned after the Way's structure, but keeping only the good and wholesome and throwing away all the controlling, dominating bs and opening their humility up to experience the whole Christian experience, whether it comes from ex-Wayer's or from more traditional modern Christianity, it has shown me that there is life after the Way. They use the Net, search out for power-filled Christians wherever they can find them, and love life without having to follow people around, yell at them or expect them to attend everything. Its the way the Way was 20 years ago, when people still loved and cared for each other, and signs, miracles and wonders followed. You can read more on their website, at http://www.outreachofgodsword.com/about_us.htm
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No Way
I supposed Jerry Carr/Steve Zoelezzi's fellowship is a Geerite group. Their group is ex-twi leaders and mostly younger people who never were in twi.
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Jeff USAF RET
Here is some of the TIMELINE of how Christian Educational Services came to be.
This is taken from the link given below.
1943-1986
Mark Graeser, John Lynn, and John Schoenheit were born and raised in relatively normal American families, graduated from normal American colleges (Grinnell, Kenyon and UNC, respectively) and became relatively normal American young men.
In the late 60's and early 70's they each became associated with The Way International in New Knoxville, OH because they were impressed with the depth of research and the quality of teaching they found there. Each became progressively more involved, assuming a variety of teaching and leadership positions up until 1986.
John Schoenheit had been an integral and well-respected member of the Research Team at The Way headquarters for several years, known particularly for his work in the Old Testament. Little did he think that his 1986 writing of an innocent little research paper reaching an obvious conclusion (adultery is sin) would sound the shot that would be heard 'round The Way world and precipitate a not-so-civil war during which many captives of tradition and tyranny were set free.
By the time the dust had settled, these three amigos formed Christian Educational Services in an attempt to continue what had been good in the teaching and practice of The Way. Since then, CES has been occupied with the difficult and sometimes tedious task of sorting through the rubble, looking for life and meaning in the profound and life-changing experience that was The Way. In the process of our seeking biblical truth and sound Christian character, God has opened many doors of utterance to us around the world and taken us far beyond a ministry to ex-Way members only.
What follows are the significant events in the growth and development of our ministry, offered in the hope of giving you a better sense of where we have come from and where, God willing, we might be going.
Here are the Scriptural Issues about which Christian Educational Services
Differs with The Way International (and other groups who hold to the same doctrine).
1986 October:
The firing of John Schoenheit by The Way International for writing a paper called "Adultery and Fornication: A Biblical Perspective." The paper simply concluded that adultery and fornication were immoral according to the Bible.
1986 November:
The Way Clergy meeting that threatened dismissal for any clergy who had read or distributed John Schoenheit’s paper.
1987 March:
37 page letter sent by John & Pat Lynn, Tom Reahard, Ralph Dubofsky, Robert Belt calling for a convention of all interested parties to discuss ways of restoring The Way to biblical standards. Read a 5 Page letter by John Lynn on this subject.
1987 April 1: The firing of John Lynn by The Way International, presumably for insubordination.
1987 October: 1st Chicago meeting of "American Fellowship Services," the precursor to CES.
1988 June: The following was printed in a national newsletter:
"C.E.S. will have no national membership and we do not intend to interfere with how your local fellowship operates. We want to encourage Bible studies and fellowship, but we don’t want to run your life or living room."
"Christian Educational Services" began with the following initial members: Robert Belt, Ralph Dubofsky, Mark Graeser, John Lynn, Sue Pierce, Tom Reahard and John Schoenheit. The initial Board of Directors included Robert, Ralph, John, Sue and Tom. The CES office was in John Lynn’s house.
1988 August: Mark Graeser presents Rethinking Christology to Apologetic Research Coalition (ARC), an anti-cult group of orthodox Christians. He is first viewed with suspicion but eventually accepted as a Christian brother.
2nd Chicago meeting of "American Fellowship Services"
1988 September: Christian Educational Services officially incorporated in the state of Indiana. Its purpose was to provide Bible teachings by way of books, tapes, periodic newsletters and conferences.
1989 April: The IRS notified CES that our application for 501 ©(3) status had been approved.
1989 August: John Schoenheit presented paper on "The Dead are Dead" (written by Mark Graeser) to ARC. This marked the end of our association with ARC because our position was not rebutted biblically.
CES purchased its first computer a Macintosh SE and leased a small Minolta copier.
1989 November: Robert Belt and Sue Pierce resigned from the Board. Mark Graeser and John Schoenheit were elected to the Board.
1989: We began sending out four quarterly letters, each consisting of personal sharings, news of activities and teaching itineraries of CES members.
CES also sent out six bi-monthly issues of DIALOGUE , which had a readership of 500.
One national fellowship was held in Chicago in November.
We produced a 24-hour Bible study series "Introduction to God’s Heart" taught by Mark Graeser, John Schoenheit, John Lynn and David Anderson. This was taped May 26-June 4 and became available to the public July 29. By the end of the year, nearly 400 sets had been distributed.
1990: John Lynn continued on a volunteer, non-salaried basis to handle the day by day operation of CES , advised by the Board of Directors about every 3 weeks in a telephone conference call.
John Lynn taught an 18-hour seminar, The Book of Romans .
The first 90-minute bi-monthly teaching tape was produced, to which more than 500 people subscribed. To be able to produce these, CES acquired a tape deck and microphone at a cost of about $500. The first tape was The Christian Family: A Laboratory of Love.
Pat Lynn, who has been working as contract labor, was hired February 1 as a part-time employee, the only CES employee.
CES continued to send a quarterly letter, which by the end of the year went to about 2600 addresses, or approximately 4000 people in all 50 states and the District of Columbia as well as Australia, England, France, Germany, Ghana, Japan, Ireland, Norway, Philippines, Portugal, Scotland, Singapore, South Africa and Uganda.
Our annual Fall meeting was once again in Chicago, and approximately 100 people from across the United States enjoyed the fellowship and the Word of God that was taught.
1991: John Lynn continued to volunteer, non-salaried basis to handle the day-to-day operation of CES
advised by the Board about every 3 weeks in a telephone conference call.
In February, Tom Reahard resigned from the Board.
Pat Lynn completed her second year as the only CES employee, working part-time.
The mailing list increased to 2900 addresses and about 5000 people received the quarterly newsletter.
The first edition of our first book, Is There Death After Life? was published in February.
In June, John Schoenheit completed a 26 hour seminar entitled A Journey Through The Old Testament .
John Lynn traveled to nearly 100 cities in the USA, as well as to England, Ireland, Scotland, Germany, South Africa, Singapore, and the Philippines teaching and making CES materials available. John Schoenheit was able to travel more this year doing weekend meetings in about ten cities, and Mark Graeser also made a couple of trips.
In December we began sending $200 a month to Rodrigo and Judy Limpot in Cebu City, Philippines.
CES continued our policy of giving away materials to those who really wanted them but could not afford to buy them, in particular widows and single parents.
By the end of the year there were 541 subscribers to the bi-monthly tapes and 578 subscribers to DIALOGUE.
1992: The annual CES Fall Fellowship was held October 11-13 at the Airport Holiday Inn in Indianapolis and about 160 folks from coast to coast in the USA attended.
Ralph Dubofsky resigned from the Board.
On February 1, John Schoenheit began work as a full-time employee of CES with full health insurance coverage for him and his family.
In June we produced a six-hour seminar taught by John Schoenheit, entitled The Creation-Evolution Controversy.
In July our second book, titled Speaking the Truth in Love, The Purposes of Christian Educational Services, was published.
In August, we purchased a 1992 Plymouth Mini-van for John Lynn’s travel around the USA.
The annual CES Fall Fellowship was held in September in Indianapolis, and about 175 people from coast to coast in the USA attended. For the first time, we made available Children’s Fellowship.
Pat Lynn completed her third year as the CES secretary, continuing to work part-time. On November 30, Elaine Leonard began working twenty hours per week as a secretary.
We also began making available to people books written by authors other than ourselves.
Although John Lynn received no salary, CES again paid all his travel expenses. Instead of paying him the current U.S. corporate mileage rate for his business driving, as we had done in the past, we secured a Mastercard for him to use for gasoline and for him and John Schoenheit to use for other travel expenses, and for the purchase of research books, etc.
In November, an unused porch in John’s home was renovated to expand the Home Office.
John Lynn continued to travel as extensively as he has in the past and John Schoenheit traveled more.
_____________________________________
To read the rest of this TIMELINE, click on the link below. It will have MANY more hyper links to key artilces linked on it.
http://christianeducational.org/timeline.htm
Hope that helps you see the way an "ex-way" group started!
Jeff
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searcher
Thanks Jeff,
It is nice to be able to follow the steps taken by groups, gives a better insight as to why.
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sky4it
Jeff USAF:
I have a couple questions for you and 2 opinions. I wasnt around in the years you speak of so I dont know what happened.
Since this guy had to write a paper on adultery saying it was a sin and others took offense to it,was adultry an accepted practice in The Way prior to this letter and after is this correct?
Or was it just tolerated?
Either way, just that issue is a problem. How can people that are so "profoundly" indebted to the teaching of the word miss that one anyway, when you can find it on every street and corner in the reading that exist in the scripture? I don't get that one at all.
I also had a serious issue to how the book of Job was handled, at least from what someone told me.
Again, it never bothered me half as much, what Way people had , as what I didn't think they wanted. If ex or splinter groups dont address such issues, I dont see how running the same format could be very beneficial, it would simply be re-thinking "Frankenstien". In addition, the "wrong doctrine" or missing stuff, make whats good kinda rotten to those who went thru it and how do you deal with that?
The adultry is wrong concept is so basic, that if you cant pick that up in a few weeks, it really makes you wonder, whats with that?
Awaiting your reply.....................
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mj412
searcher
oh boy how manipulating he stops where he did in his little report of CES. if you look at their page you will also notice a stop of the time line. it is sugar coated where they leave out a lots and I mean a whole lot of serious insanity.
YEARS and I mean decades are left out of trouble and debate and serious abuse and allegations and divorce and upset and division within the CES group . Both John S. and John Lynn are divorced , John lynn was fired by his own company and brought back a year later when things calmed down about what he did. the rules of the leadership and their special page and oath to CES are not metioned hmmm... the difference and the only difference is CES is much more sly and sneaky and full of only those with ears to hear secrets . they got good at it when twi fell and learned .
Twi got a little to bold with the game, CES knows better.
geez whatever people want to float their boat in. anything for the good of the cause .
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Tom Strange
CES has been around for "decades"??? I thought it just came to be in the 80's? Was I mistaken?
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mj412
CES began in the 80's and it is now 2004 it has changed its focus to meet the need of the people ha . yes Tom nearly twenty years .
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Jeff USAF RET
Hi sky4it!
Great post!
You are very right! How that got missed and then accepted is beyond me. I never knew it was going on but then I was "just" a Military Twig Coordinator and the sex stuff was going on behind the "leadership" scenes.
GreaseSpot has a link to the Adultery paper at:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/misc/adultery.htm
There is also many good articles on the subject of Sex n Scripture at this link.
Most come right out of John Schoenheits book on the subject.
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.ph...ewindex&catid=8
It was sad how the "group think" got into TWI with all the "man-of-God" stuff.
May we stay free in Christ with eyes wide open!
Jeff
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Raf
This is revisionist nonsense.
John stepped down because he and the others thought it was best. He took a year off from ministry, and all said from the beginning that it would be a year off. They didn't wait for things to "calm down." Any Greasespot reader knows that it can take decades for something to "calm down."
And if I recall correctly, there was plenty of debate both then and now as to whether JAL even did anything so egregious that it merited him taking the year off.
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mj412
nice spin Raf.
it was decided he would be punished in such a way . sugar coat it anyway you like Raf to keep the followers calm and ignorant and believing in the group, they sure as hell did and you clearly bought it hook line and sinker.
obviously some thought something needed to be done about what he did or it would not have come down to that... it was a smoke screen to cover him and make CES look like of course they are not about just what John lynn said and does when he was busted.
John wrote a letter saying he would agree with their decision .
Im sure it was a rough ride seeing how he was the one who founded CES and had played the major force up until then, including bringing John S. and Mark G. on the payroll.
They take care of their own.
what a game.
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Raf
As I said on the other thread: there are good reasons to be concerned with CES, doctrinal reasons. Your "spin" is based on nothing more than paranoia.
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mj412
Raf.
Are you the judgement seat now?
calling me names and accusing me of being paranoid? what am I afraid of exactly?
I speak the truth and I ask you you prove different.
oh just do what you do and spend your time as king of internet posting for kicks. whatever . this is not fun for me as it is for you. if you ever recover from the cult you may find out just why .
but untill then continue on with your know it all, arrogant, judgemental , I have friends on the internet and fellowship with CES mission .
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Raf
I apologize, MJ. You can have your judgment seat back.
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mj412
That isnt judgement that is my opinion . so answer the question Raf instead of this little quip and snip game .
what am I afraid of what am I paranoid of ? hmm? you wear me down and I will stop posting to avoid your game that doesnt make me paranoid or wrong just tired of the games your playing with me.
why is CES that important to you you have to get on me because I see things alot differently or are you taking this personaly because CES means alot to you ? Why ?
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Raf
MJ, that's judgmental.
Do you honestly believe JAL needs to rally people to his cause to get them over here to defend his integrity? That CES followers feel AFRAID to use the Internet? Or message boards. Because if you really feel that way, that's paranoia. It's not based on anything resembling reality.
But I'll tell you what: I'll rescind my paranoia comment and apologize for it. I'm sorry I said "paranoia."
Instead, I'll say this: If you really, really feel that way...
Prove it.
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mj412
double post
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mj412
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Raf
I should rephrase what I meant:
I don't think, for a second, that JAL needs any help defending his positions on message boards, or that he would ask for any help doing such. By and large, I have found that these guys don't care all that much about what's said here. He would sooner ignore all this than call for reinforcements.
As for rallying people to CES: yes, of course that's what he does. He's always done that.
Once again, MJ, our blow up is based more on misunderstanding each other than understanding. Forgive me for my part in that, and let's both keep in mind for the next time we have a blow up.
Which, by the way, I'm looking forward to.
:)-->
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mj412
ya know what my kid lost a very expensive cell phone a couple of months ago and I had to spend a couple of hundred dollars to replace it and we fought for three weeks .
as I was reading this she put the lost cell on my desk . IM still paying off the one I had to buy to replace it .
so I was reading your post the quote thing and got confused and deleted whatever.
confusion reigns love ya man .
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sky4it
Jeff:
After reading the JAL letter, it really gave me the hebe jeebies. I got some serious problems with it and all post that on the "open letter from John lynn thread" later. For starters it dont look very "open", if the guy has you posting letters and hes not around to answer the people in this rooms comments.
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Eagle
Actually, I never knew JAL when he was in TWI but I did speak to him on the phone along with John Schoenheit in the late 80's after they left. They both sincerely desire to help people with the Word of God and JAL and JS both respond to my emails when I email them. Not right away, but they always have. These guys are busy building a ministry. I don't know what to say to those who were offended by JAL. If it was during TWI, we were all judgemental then. We were taught that way. After that, I thought the man was the nicest guy I ever wanted to know. But I realize people are entitled to their opinions even about other people.
Peace, man.
Steve
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WordWolf
So,
how big is CES and who's currently in the top spots?
What about other offshoots?
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Digger
I, for one, have found a lasting peace in the form of what could be termed an ex-Way group. Patterned after the Way's structure, but keeping only the good and wholesome and throwing away all the controlling, dominating bs and opening their humility up to experience the whole Christian experience, whether it comes from ex-Wayer's or from more traditional modern Christianity, it has shown me that there is life after the Way. They use the Net, search out for power-filled Christians wherever they can find them, and love life without having to follow people around, yell at them or expect them to attend everything. Its the way the Way was 20 years ago, when people still loved and cared for each other, and signs, miracles and wonders followed. You can read more on their website, at http://www.outreachofgodsword.com/about_us.htm
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