This has been a wonderful short course in metaphysics and gnosticism, but if I may interject briefly about what the Bible calls good and evil spirits:
Angels are messengers and warriors. TWI had them under the juristictions of Gabriel and Michael, respectively. Whether that is accurate or not, I do'nt know; but it's clear that Gabriel and Michael fall into those categories. Since the spirits of the churches brought messages to the churches, they are, obviously, messengers. Their names aren't given.
Though the RC Church had a whole hierarchy of types of good spirits (Thrones, Dominations, Cherubim, Seraphim, and others I don't remember now), other than angels, the only type of good spirit being (except God, of course) that I can find in the Bible is cherubim, who, unlike angels, DO have wings (though no halos!). Their description is given in Ezekiel and Revelation. Their purposes seem to be worship and protection.
For the record, metaphysics and gnosticism are only two vast SUBjects in a much longer list of things I drew from in these posts. And it seems that most prophets (and sorcerers) of the Bible were adepts in those sorts of more-mystical/less-orthodox fields anyway. Once initiated into any school of "higher" knowledge, intent of the heart is what made all the difference between the two. A quantum leap for fundamentalists of most religions.
IMO, Meta-physics is to physics what spirituallity is to religion--like a circle around a dot.
Without the dot, the circle is just a mushy jellyfish.
Without the circle, the dot is a whitewashed windswept bone.
:)-->
Thanks again, Pat, for stirring me with thoughts and questions like this, and letting me ramble in your "house." For me, such conversation really is like a cool glass of water in a desert. I can't help but want to pause awhile longer before I get back to what I was doing. This has been a delight.
Thanks for the fascinating insights on the Book of Revelations. I find that I am reverting to my pre-twi leanings toward the metaphysical views and I have been having a very difficult, if not impossible time looking at the Bible, because all I hear is slick-vic and the okie king with every verse I read. I love the idea that there is so much more to the book than what traditional religion/fundamentalist cults would have us believe. Keep on sharing, please! Would love to read your book whenever you complete it-keep us posted!
If/when I come up with something publishable, I'll probably announce it here.
And so we don't derail Pat's thread, there is an old thread about 3 pages down in the doctrinal forum with a few more thoughts on the book: An Interpretation of Tongues
Thanks for the doctrinal link. On the good spirits/bad spirits line of thinking...do you have any opinions about spirit guides? I know people who believe they have "guides", converse with them regularly, and receive needed information from them regarding situations, and what to do in the situation (word of knowledge, word of wisdom type stuff). Some of the knowledge one friend has received in the healing arts field is downright amazing, bordering on miraculous (I can say that having been the recipient of it's application!)
Anyone else have any thoughts or experiences with spirit guides?
Yes. spirit guides. They come in all shapes and sizes. Mostly representing fragments of entire spiritual "regions." Most are honest to a fault, but some are not-so-honest (oftentimes because they simply do not understand, or are misplaced or lost). This is the wilderness, where spirit beings are as innocent and instinctual as plants and animals.
But there is also a crown on this spiritual kingdom, which is "the anointed cherubim that covereth" all bases. It is a spirit being of the complete spectrum, or arch-angel. Early in our "spiritual development," we may encounter this being in our lives as an angelic otherworldly or mysterious being. And as our spiritual perception unfolds, it may appear as a radiant Christ, or Buddha, or Mother Mary, or Giant Whale in Outer Space, etc... But in reality, this encounter/experience is with a manifestation of our truest, deepest celestial self, trying to guide our lower, worldly "self" (trying not to freak us out completely).
If we are a "fruit" or a "branch," are we not also "tree?" Yes, even more so.
For there really is no seperation (unless our knowledge of good and evil is still broken off.)
This is how we can "walk among serpents and scorpions." Like loving, knowledgable spiritual zoologists and botanists who understand the wilderness and its harmonies and disharmonies (Jesus style). Not ignorant crusaders who blindly rage in pain and fear and against a pantheon of evil giants and villains (O.T. style). "The devil" is just a snake, for God sakes! :D-->
Re: names of good spirits:
Just like people, a spirit may have been given a name that it clings to, or have chosen a name and remains attached to it. And so this name will have a certain power over the named, though it is not the end of the matter. Liberation from names is that "white stone," that "pearl of great price," that "baptism of fire" which purges our soul from our "old garments." And we have a new name that only we know (because even we ourselves cannot utter it). We can only see it.
2fortheroad: Is this a Reiki Master "spiritual guide"?
Sir G: Are you talking about Guardian Angels? TWI said we only had a Guardian Angel until we were born again. Where did they get that? I think there is angelic protection on some folks before, after, and regardless of whether they are born again.
Also, what does it mean to have a name you can not utter, but you see it instead?
You guys, so much of what we're discussing here goes beyond the stuff in the Word. Remember the mantra "The Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word"? Actually I don't think this idea was anywhere to be found in the Word. The Word is great, indescribable even, but truth is not limited to just the Word. -Pat
Pat- I have a couple of theories on the white pebbles with a name on them known only to the holder and God. One is that in that culture the citizens of a city such as Ephesus would have a small stone from the land that signified their citizenship. Partly it represents citizenship in God’s spiritual kingdom. I view the “secret” names in a couple of ways. First it is God’s own term of loving endearment expressing His unique love for each of the individuals. Like you may call your children “pumpkin” or “sugar” only even more personal. Second using the internet as an example, It is a unique address that God uses to communicate to the individual. I think good spirits have a unique name and that connection already.
As much as I would like to know the names of the “good spirits” I don’t think that they can be found in the Bible or anywhere else. I think this primarily because it would lead to idolatry- where the spirits would become worshipped. I can’t think of anywhere in the bible where angles appeared and gave a name: only fear not and a message.
Yes, I would call this inner guru, great master The/our personal guardian angel.
It only has our best interest in heart, for that is its purpose and nature.
Which offers angelic protection before, after and regardless of being "born again."
And consider...
Ministering spirits,
Flames of fire,
Cloven tongues, like as of fire,
Interpreting/speaking in tongues of angels,
7 stars (angels of the churches),
And we (Christ within) are 7 lamps (churches).
TWI's distant view of angels were typical, it seems.
Feeling more comfortable if higher things remain more distant and unreachable.
That way, we can brag and walk as elite, yet remain unaccountable to what we preach.
Leaving no real chance of demonstration or evidence, really.
And so they are off the hook. All they have to do is talk about it.
And so is becomes yet another mere translation of a myth as opposed to providing a truly transformative and liberating path, or way.
Re: unutterable names.
Like I have mentioned, light communicates more and more directly than sound.
Light is a medium of color, form, image, animation, etc...
Whereas spoken names/words rely upon another medium to fulfill it.
When I say "purple berry," you draw a picture in your head (via light).
Light/shape brings meaning to words quickly.
Or, if I wrote the word "tree" on a wall and a thousand years pass, one may need a spend some time in a lexicon (or other secondary source) to learn its meaning. But if I drew a picture of a tree and a million years pass, aliens from space could glance at it and get a pretty good idea of what it means.
But there are other factors with names, as well:
For example, to see the astrology associated with our mortal conception and/or birth is to see a form of our name (and words we find to express and explain it are still secondary to the actual shape and form of the astrological factors).
Also, the vibrations of verbalized sounds, as they vibrate both within our bodies and without our bodies, carry specific signatures that are important factors in names/words.
To see our divine name is to more-or-less see (comprehend) the generic form of human reality we all share. But that it has a generic (genetic) origin does not discount our own personal twists.
Names within names within names, all ultimately resting in the nameless, I guess.
Pat and others- I have been looking thru Revelations lately and wanted to add this outline as something to stimulate conversation concerning “good spirits”
From the Amplified Bible-
I Christ reveals himself to John Rev1:1-20
II Christ portrayed to the seven churches Rev2:1-3:22
III Christ as related to the world Rev4:1-16:21
A. The heavenly throne Rev 4:1-5:14
B. The seven seals Rev 6:1-8:5
C. The seven trumpets Rev 8:6-11:19
D. The seven figures Rev 12:1- 14:20
E. The bowls of wrath Rev 15:1-16:21
IV Christ the Victor Rev 17:1-20:3
A. Babylon judged Rev 17:1-19:10
B. Beast and false prophet judged Rev 19:11-21
C. Satan judged Rev 20:1-3
V Christ in the eternal kingdom Rev20:4-22:5
A. Millennial reign Rev 20:4-6
B. Rebellion and judgments Rev 20:7-15
C. New Heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem
For instance in Rev 6:1-8 the four horsemen each called forth by one of the four living creatures.- Are all eight “good spirits” even if as in the case of the fourth horseman it is given the power and authority over a forth part to kill?
Rev 5:11 many angels and living creatures and the elders and they numbered 10,000 times 10,000 and thousands of thousands (over 100 million). Is that all the good spirits?
Sir Guess- how would you change this outline to fit with your understanding of Rev?
In particular I am also curious as to how the latter sections IV and V with judgements, millennia, and the new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem fit.
I am not trying to antagonize only act as a foil asking so you may answer, if you choose :)-->
When our spiritual perspective changes, all former things do pass away.
When our inner perspective changes, our understanding of the outer world changes,
even as the outer world is changing all the time.
But again, these grande finale revelations come to our soul after a lot of other inward work is done. It isn't just "I renew my mind one day and, viola...I see a new heaven and earth." As I have said, the BOR seems to hold The mystery curriculum of Christine discipline. Practice, practice, practice. Like playing an instrument.
But that is not to say that there are no real ages and times and world events related to Christ-based thought. But these vast outward changes come as more people change on the inside, mostly. I do believe there will be a day when all eyes shall see him, but if this day is when all eyes see him first and foremost within, does that change much about what was written and said about his coming?
And there are revolutions within revolutions within revolutions. The "day of the lord" is a big revolution that is always coming, just as tomorrow is always coming. Day after day after day after day. Not just once (Peter saw it, remember?).
In other words, the full cycle of the BOR happens again and again and again, from day of the lord to day of the lord, for better or worse, always bigger and better than before. In increments, always achieving and gaining towards goodwill on earth. Indeed, our carnal selves are blades of grass. And the wheel in the sky keeps on turning. There are days when all of mankind seems to learns a new trick all at once (which is again, an inward experience).
But as you can see, the day of the lord is a huge derail for this thread. I just wanted to mention my thoughts on it so its clear that I do not condone becoming trapped inside yourself.
re: all the spirits and beings and characters in the BOR.
Yes, the living creature are directly related to the horsemen of the seals. But they are not beings, per se. Like the creatures, the horsemen are representatives/results/manifestations of the first 4 of the 7 spiritual planes.
The creatures are the fourfold nature of carnal un-reincarnate man (which is O.T. understanding). The four instincts, if you will. The four "givens" of human nature. Those four base things (which are also serve good purposes) which must be "tamed."
Notice, that after the first four seals, trumpets and bowls, experiences get more intense, not less. Woes come. Because, the fourth spirit is the limit of mortal understanding. From here on out/in, things get more complex, but the more the first four (the four corners of the altar) are prepared, the more capable one will be in handling the usually daunting complexities.
We can become trapped in higher places. Putting the cart before the horse. One can have open eyes to see truth, but not understand it, and lack the skill to express it, and so they go on and on and on sounding like a raving lunatic, misrepresenting what they see but do not understand. The fact that they are seeing something true is undeniable, especially to them. Like knowing only one or two chords and claiming you know all the scales.
VPW is a good example of this. Sure, he had some peak experiences and saw some higher things, but he lacked "the knees and the feet." So he remained subject to his instincts, mostly, like an ignorant beast in the woods. Poor slob. The four horsemen of the beasts carried him along, even as he learned to jump and steal fruit off the higher branches. And truth is truth, whether you eat it it fresh off the vine yourself, or buy it spoiled and pawned-off as holy (which is always overpriced, it seems, in more ways than one).
It should come as no surprise that the higher trumpets and such are associated with woe. Double woe to the carnal man who thinks he can subject higher spiritual realities to lower instincts. ;)-->
As for the thousands and thousands of thousands and other countless beings and multitudes in the BOR, again, this book is about a 7-eyed lamb. It is about changing and developing perceptions of the same darn things everyone is looking at and has been looking at from the beginning (whenever that was).
But here is one minor complexity that may help keep from fundamentalist singular-meaning:
Every truth and principle and spirit and thing is best viewed through a multi-faceted lense (which is disorienting, like new glasses, but takes practice). All 7 spiritual planes (and things) apply to inner/outer/collective/individual. But we are best to start at inner-individual, because it is our most direct route to the divine. The shortest trip. The only hope we have of entering heaven in one lifetime. It is the eye of the needle. And the inner-alone is the only one available to a naked soul in the dark.
But we often get stuck in outer-individual/collective. Where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, the BOR says. Nothing but anger and sorrow in the outer world where the source of light comes from so far away we do not even know where it comes from. Now that is seperation from God.
It's nice to discuss this stuff with people who still know how to think.
The other part of my original question was in regards to why TWI focused so much on devil spirits. I mean ... just think about the detailed junk we were taught about the "dark side". Is there any other group that knows so much - or claims to know so much - about evil spirits?
Now here's a wild idea: I have a friend, an ex-TWI friend, who insists that LCM is the Antichrist. He believes that the whole TWI system was designed intentionally to pull people away from Christianity and toward Satan.
Thus the focus on the Adversary. Thus the absence of Christ in the majority of teachings. Where was Jesus in the "Athletes of the Spirit" production? When did we have any classes on the Gospels? (They were said to be Old Testament books, remember?) And lightning will strike you down if you pray to Jesus. And "Jesus Christ is Not God". And on and on and on and on.
Compare this with the in-depth emphasis on the devil. What do you think?
I thought I’d Quote from Sir Guessalot -This is from the forth post on the second page of the an interpretation of tongues that he linked to earlier. This was originally written in Feb of 2004. It looks like he agreed with you:
quote:
And to light the first three lamps and stop, is to sit on the throne of Satan, Pergamos (which is where VPW stopped)
As for my opinion I don’t think LCM is the Anti-Christ or that TWI is The Ministry of Satan partly be cause it simply gives them to much credit- LCM and the ministry simply aren’t that significant in the over all affairs of the world, God and satan. They could be described as anti-Christ though because they taught and acted from wrong doctrine and still don’t have appeared to have genuinely repented and begun to restore themselves and moved onwards much less back upwards. I also don’t think that Satan had to work all that hard to deceive VPW, LCM, the ministry or you or I when we were an active, willing part of it. We pretty much did it to ourselves, because it is our nature. This is because we were limited by the primary assumptions of this ministry which of course came from VPW. This also led to the fascination with devil spirits. The two primary assumptions that I think lead to this are that first there is only one correct interpretation to the Bible, and second that there were a system of logical rules that could be applied to find it.
This comes back to human nature seeking to understand by organizing, defining and setting relationships in order to understand “The Truth”. We love to make lists and connect them in patterns to connect the dots so to speak. We seek order and rationality to discern cause and effect so we might be able to control them or at least avoid pain and also some of us do it because we wish to know God and our relationship with him and our place in His creation. We usually fail to realize that the more rigorously and precisely we define these lists and their relationships to the exclusion of any others that we have probably limited or understanding of the Whole Truth of the truths we seek.
Several years before I became involved with TWI and in the mid seventies I read a book called:
Alternate Realities: The Search for the Full Human Being by Lawerence Leshawn.
In this book he listed four or five different belief systems that he saw in the world and an ideal new one that I consider the foundation for “New Age Thinking”. Each reality had a set of rules or assumptions. The thing that struck me was they all had the same last rule.
The last rule was always: This is the only valid reality, all other realities are invalid. Sound like TWI? All cults are like this, but so are societies. From this I have defined what I call alternate reality 22- after catch 22 by J Heller. I looked up this explanation of catch 22 at http://www.bellmore-merrick.k12.ny.us/catch22.html
Catch 22-
quote:
In short, its basic meaning is that if there was a rule, no matter what the rule is, there is always an exception to it. It is a mysterious regulation that is in essence a circular argument……….. The catch is used by the superior powers to uphold and increase their power, and yet it is harmful to those who do not have power in the first place. It creates situations where, when you think everything is perfect, Catch-22 pops up and makes your plans impossible.
This also reminded me of TWI and the fact that there are stated rules in an alternate reality and unstated, hidden or denied rules (if you point it out you are punished and shown how wrong you are) in cults. Catch 22 was one of these rules in TWI.
Anyhow Alternate Reality 22 has only two rules: First- There is no single valid reality. Second and last- This is the only valid reality, all other realities are invalid :)-->
I now use this reality to remind me to stay flexible and shift my personal alternate realities.
Now to apply this to the devil spirit fascination of TWI, I remember in the old Renewed Mind class about the correct and incorrect ways to stop thinking about hamburgers. Don’t tell yourself not to think about hamburgers, think about something completely different.
But with devil spirits we kept being reminded of devil spirits. Part of the beliefs I remember having about TWI that I think were widely accepted and promoted by leadership (even today I expect) were that “we” were not religious because God despised religion and it was mans attempt to perfect himself. “We” focused on the spiritual not the physical. “We” were the church of grace, not of the law. “We” found genuine liberty by learning to walk in love, not the bondage of walking by the five senses in fear. “We” worshiped God in spirit and truth and did not commit idolatry.
Because there is only one way to rightly divide the Word of God, and we can and have discovered the keys to its self interpretation, we can tell you with scientific exactness and mathematical precision what it says about anything that pertains to life and godliness. Therefore we can tell you exactly how should act, and think so that we can all be a clone of Christ and we can all enter a paradise on earth today that we are going to call the faithful household of the prevailing word and if you don’t do it its your own damn fault! Because you are possessed since to not want or be able to follow along with us can only be due to devil spirit influence.
By trying to precisely define the walk of the spirit, it became a walk in the flesh, By focusing on the characteristics, abilities, methods and devices of devil spirits we ended up “discerning” them every where all the times. Thus we magnified them, worshiped and idolized them. They became a source of fear motivation not love and we were so busy trying to find and avoid the things that carried them we were walking by the five senses. The only way to keep up was to keep tapping in to the teachings and rely on the spiritual maturity of way corpse leadership. And in their quest to achieve this grand quest they drove rather than lead us and kept us chasing our own tails to get the devil spirits off our own backs faster and faster, thus farther from the grace of God for we could not be still.
Thus TWI manifested Job 3:25 “For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.” as a result of catch 22.
I think that this occurs when ever a rigid Alternate Reality inevitably reconciles itself with the genuine, complete reality that cannot be defined by any belief system that includes the universal last rule- This is the only valid reality, all others are invalid.
God bless your heart of love and your fight to understand truth along side of all us with the seed of Christ within us
Was LCM a anti Christ or was the Way a anti Christ Church
Lets think it over a bite more if that is ok
What was the thing the Way did over and over that could be called anti Christ
They got us to question the seed within us against the bible or their personal teaching that were for sale
If you ask me that is a anti Christ action
If we believe in God and we believe its Christ in us teaching us on a daily basis which is what and who we live by
If check it against the bible, other books like PFAL, or any man but we need to trust it and learn to walk by it as we grow in truth learning from it
Yes that was an anti Christ actions but did they do it out of wrong teaching of the flesh or a love for the fleslly things
They sold us classes to build up our spirit but they could not because all they could do is help us know what to talk to our spirit about Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit flesh can not teach spirit but spirit can teach the flesh
Why you ask because spirit knows all now but the spirit learns sec by sec You see the spirit is connected with God’ s spirit who is the creater of all truths while men is the creater of all lies
The bible saids the spirit can not lie but the Way saids check the words of tongues against the bible If that not anti Christ than what is
Seems to me there is alot of info about spiritual beings in the first 3 chapters of Rev. And some of them fly.
As far as discerning of spirits go. Dale Sides has given good advice. If someone is not seeing twice as many good spirits as bad ones then there just might be a problem with proper balance.
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Bramble
Pat, I ptd.
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GeorgeStGeorge
This has been a wonderful short course in metaphysics and gnosticism, but if I may interject briefly about what the Bible calls good and evil spirits:
Angels are messengers and warriors. TWI had them under the juristictions of Gabriel and Michael, respectively. Whether that is accurate or not, I do'nt know; but it's clear that Gabriel and Michael fall into those categories. Since the spirits of the churches brought messages to the churches, they are, obviously, messengers. Their names aren't given.
Though the RC Church had a whole hierarchy of types of good spirits (Thrones, Dominations, Cherubim, Seraphim, and others I don't remember now), other than angels, the only type of good spirit being (except God, of course) that I can find in the Bible is cherubim, who, unlike angels, DO have wings (though no halos!). Their description is given in Ezekiel and Revelation. Their purposes seem to be worship and protection.
George
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Tom Strange
Hi Pat! When I first saw the title of this thread I thought it said "Good SPORTS and Bad Spirits".... haha
Just wanted to say "nice to see you again"...
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sirguessalot
Hi GeorgeStGeorge.
For the record, metaphysics and gnosticism are only two vast SUBjects in a much longer list of things I drew from in these posts. And it seems that most prophets (and sorcerers) of the Bible were adepts in those sorts of more-mystical/less-orthodox fields anyway. Once initiated into any school of "higher" knowledge, intent of the heart is what made all the difference between the two. A quantum leap for fundamentalists of most religions.
IMO, Meta-physics is to physics what spirituallity is to religion--like a circle around a dot.
Without the dot, the circle is just a mushy jellyfish.
Without the circle, the dot is a whitewashed windswept bone.
Thanks again, Pat, for stirring me with thoughts and questions like this, and letting me ramble in your "house." For me, such conversation really is like a cool glass of water in a desert. I can't help but want to pause awhile longer before I get back to what I was doing. This has been a delight.
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2fortheroad
Sirguessalot:
Thanks for the fascinating insights on the Book of Revelations. I find that I am reverting to my pre-twi leanings toward the metaphysical views and I have been having a very difficult, if not impossible time looking at the Bible, because all I hear is slick-vic and the okie king with every verse I read. I love the idea that there is so much more to the book than what traditional religion/fundamentalist cults would have us believe. Keep on sharing, please! Would love to read your book whenever you complete it-keep us posted!
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sirguessalot
Thanks, 2fer.
If/when I come up with something publishable, I'll probably announce it here.
And so we don't derail Pat's thread, there is an old thread about 3 pages down in the doctrinal forum with a few more thoughts on the book: An Interpretation of Tongues
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2fortheroad
Thanks for the doctrinal link. On the good spirits/bad spirits line of thinking...do you have any opinions about spirit guides? I know people who believe they have "guides", converse with them regularly, and receive needed information from them regarding situations, and what to do in the situation (word of knowledge, word of wisdom type stuff). Some of the knowledge one friend has received in the healing arts field is downright amazing, bordering on miraculous (I can say that having been the recipient of it's application!)
Anyone else have any thoughts or experiences with spirit guides?
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sirguessalot
Yes. spirit guides. They come in all shapes and sizes. Mostly representing fragments of entire spiritual "regions." Most are honest to a fault, but some are not-so-honest (oftentimes because they simply do not understand, or are misplaced or lost). This is the wilderness, where spirit beings are as innocent and instinctual as plants and animals.
But there is also a crown on this spiritual kingdom, which is "the anointed cherubim that covereth" all bases. It is a spirit being of the complete spectrum, or arch-angel. Early in our "spiritual development," we may encounter this being in our lives as an angelic otherworldly or mysterious being. And as our spiritual perception unfolds, it may appear as a radiant Christ, or Buddha, or Mother Mary, or Giant Whale in Outer Space, etc... But in reality, this encounter/experience is with a manifestation of our truest, deepest celestial self, trying to guide our lower, worldly "self" (trying not to freak us out completely).
If we are a "fruit" or a "branch," are we not also "tree?" Yes, even more so.
For there really is no seperation (unless our knowledge of good and evil is still broken off.)
This is how we can "walk among serpents and scorpions." Like loving, knowledgable spiritual zoologists and botanists who understand the wilderness and its harmonies and disharmonies (Jesus style). Not ignorant crusaders who blindly rage in pain and fear and against a pantheon of evil giants and villains (O.T. style). "The devil" is just a snake, for God sakes!
:D-->
Re: names of good spirits:
Just like people, a spirit may have been given a name that it clings to, or have chosen a name and remains attached to it. And so this name will have a certain power over the named, though it is not the end of the matter. Liberation from names is that "white stone," that "pearl of great price," that "baptism of fire" which purges our soul from our "old garments." And we have a new name that only we know (because even we ourselves cannot utter it). We can only see it.
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Schwaigers
2fortheroad: Is this a Reiki Master "spiritual guide"?
Sir G: Are you talking about Guardian Angels? TWI said we only had a Guardian Angel until we were born again. Where did they get that? I think there is angelic protection on some folks before, after, and regardless of whether they are born again.
Also, what does it mean to have a name you can not utter, but you see it instead?
You guys, so much of what we're discussing here goes beyond the stuff in the Word. Remember the mantra "The Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word"? Actually I don't think this idea was anywhere to be found in the Word. The Word is great, indescribable even, but truth is not limited to just the Word. -Pat
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ckeer
Pat- I have a couple of theories on the white pebbles with a name on them known only to the holder and God. One is that in that culture the citizens of a city such as Ephesus would have a small stone from the land that signified their citizenship. Partly it represents citizenship in God’s spiritual kingdom. I view the “secret” names in a couple of ways. First it is God’s own term of loving endearment expressing His unique love for each of the individuals. Like you may call your children “pumpkin” or “sugar” only even more personal. Second using the internet as an example, It is a unique address that God uses to communicate to the individual. I think good spirits have a unique name and that connection already.
As much as I would like to know the names of the “good spirits” I don’t think that they can be found in the Bible or anywhere else. I think this primarily because it would lead to idolatry- where the spirits would become worshipped. I can’t think of anywhere in the bible where angles appeared and gave a name: only fear not and a message.
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GrouchoMarxJr
"...there ain't no devil, theres just God when He's drunk." -Tom Waits
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sirguessalot
lol, U.H. lol!
And nice chops, ckeer.
:)-->
Pat,
Yes, I would call this inner guru, great master The/our personal guardian angel.
It only has our best interest in heart, for that is its purpose and nature.
Which offers angelic protection before, after and regardless of being "born again."
And consider...
Ministering spirits,
Flames of fire,
Cloven tongues, like as of fire,
Interpreting/speaking in tongues of angels,
7 stars (angels of the churches),
And we (Christ within) are 7 lamps (churches).
TWI's distant view of angels were typical, it seems.
Feeling more comfortable if higher things remain more distant and unreachable.
That way, we can brag and walk as elite, yet remain unaccountable to what we preach.
Leaving no real chance of demonstration or evidence, really.
And so they are off the hook. All they have to do is talk about it.
And so is becomes yet another mere translation of a myth as opposed to providing a truly transformative and liberating path, or way.
Re: unutterable names.
Like I have mentioned, light communicates more and more directly than sound.
Light is a medium of color, form, image, animation, etc...
Whereas spoken names/words rely upon another medium to fulfill it.
When I say "purple berry," you draw a picture in your head (via light).
Light/shape brings meaning to words quickly.
Or, if I wrote the word "tree" on a wall and a thousand years pass, one may need a spend some time in a lexicon (or other secondary source) to learn its meaning. But if I drew a picture of a tree and a million years pass, aliens from space could glance at it and get a pretty good idea of what it means.
But there are other factors with names, as well:
For example, to see the astrology associated with our mortal conception and/or birth is to see a form of our name (and words we find to express and explain it are still secondary to the actual shape and form of the astrological factors).
Also, the vibrations of verbalized sounds, as they vibrate both within our bodies and without our bodies, carry specific signatures that are important factors in names/words.
To see our divine name is to more-or-less see (comprehend) the generic form of human reality we all share. But that it has a generic (genetic) origin does not discount our own personal twists.
Names within names within names, all ultimately resting in the nameless, I guess.
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ckeer
Pat and others- I have been looking thru Revelations lately and wanted to add this outline as something to stimulate conversation concerning “good spirits”
From the Amplified Bible-
I Christ reveals himself to John Rev1:1-20
II Christ portrayed to the seven churches Rev2:1-3:22
III Christ as related to the world Rev4:1-16:21
A. The heavenly throne Rev 4:1-5:14
B. The seven seals Rev 6:1-8:5
C. The seven trumpets Rev 8:6-11:19
D. The seven figures Rev 12:1- 14:20
E. The bowls of wrath Rev 15:1-16:21
IV Christ the Victor Rev 17:1-20:3
A. Babylon judged Rev 17:1-19:10
B. Beast and false prophet judged Rev 19:11-21
C. Satan judged Rev 20:1-3
V Christ in the eternal kingdom Rev20:4-22:5
A. Millennial reign Rev 20:4-6
B. Rebellion and judgments Rev 20:7-15
C. New Heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem
For instance in Rev 6:1-8 the four horsemen each called forth by one of the four living creatures.- Are all eight “good spirits” even if as in the case of the fourth horseman it is given the power and authority over a forth part to kill?
Rev 5:11 many angels and living creatures and the elders and they numbered 10,000 times 10,000 and thousands of thousands (over 100 million). Is that all the good spirits?
Sir Guess- how would you change this outline to fit with your understanding of Rev?
In particular I am also curious as to how the latter sections IV and V with judgements, millennia, and the new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem fit.
I am not trying to antagonize only act as a foil asking so you may answer, if you choose
:)-->
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sirguessalot
ckeer,
I've never met an outline I did not like.
;)-->
As to the grande finale stuff in the BOR:
When our spiritual perspective changes, all former things do pass away.
When our inner perspective changes, our understanding of the outer world changes,
even as the outer world is changing all the time.
But again, these grande finale revelations come to our soul after a lot of other inward work is done. It isn't just "I renew my mind one day and, viola...I see a new heaven and earth." As I have said, the BOR seems to hold The mystery curriculum of Christine discipline. Practice, practice, practice. Like playing an instrument.
But that is not to say that there are no real ages and times and world events related to Christ-based thought. But these vast outward changes come as more people change on the inside, mostly. I do believe there will be a day when all eyes shall see him, but if this day is when all eyes see him first and foremost within, does that change much about what was written and said about his coming?
And there are revolutions within revolutions within revolutions. The "day of the lord" is a big revolution that is always coming, just as tomorrow is always coming. Day after day after day after day. Not just once (Peter saw it, remember?).
In other words, the full cycle of the BOR happens again and again and again, from day of the lord to day of the lord, for better or worse, always bigger and better than before. In increments, always achieving and gaining towards goodwill on earth. Indeed, our carnal selves are blades of grass. And the wheel in the sky keeps on turning. There are days when all of mankind seems to learns a new trick all at once (which is again, an inward experience).
But as you can see, the day of the lord is a huge derail for this thread. I just wanted to mention my thoughts on it so its clear that I do not condone becoming trapped inside yourself.
re: all the spirits and beings and characters in the BOR.
Yes, the living creature are directly related to the horsemen of the seals. But they are not beings, per se. Like the creatures, the horsemen are representatives/results/manifestations of the first 4 of the 7 spiritual planes.
The creatures are the fourfold nature of carnal un-reincarnate man (which is O.T. understanding). The four instincts, if you will. The four "givens" of human nature. Those four base things (which are also serve good purposes) which must be "tamed."
Notice, that after the first four seals, trumpets and bowls, experiences get more intense, not less. Woes come. Because, the fourth spirit is the limit of mortal understanding. From here on out/in, things get more complex, but the more the first four (the four corners of the altar) are prepared, the more capable one will be in handling the usually daunting complexities.
We can become trapped in higher places. Putting the cart before the horse. One can have open eyes to see truth, but not understand it, and lack the skill to express it, and so they go on and on and on sounding like a raving lunatic, misrepresenting what they see but do not understand. The fact that they are seeing something true is undeniable, especially to them. Like knowing only one or two chords and claiming you know all the scales.
VPW is a good example of this. Sure, he had some peak experiences and saw some higher things, but he lacked "the knees and the feet." So he remained subject to his instincts, mostly, like an ignorant beast in the woods. Poor slob. The four horsemen of the beasts carried him along, even as he learned to jump and steal fruit off the higher branches. And truth is truth, whether you eat it it fresh off the vine yourself, or buy it spoiled and pawned-off as holy (which is always overpriced, it seems, in more ways than one).
It should come as no surprise that the higher trumpets and such are associated with woe. Double woe to the carnal man who thinks he can subject higher spiritual realities to lower instincts.
;)-->
As for the thousands and thousands of thousands and other countless beings and multitudes in the BOR, again, this book is about a 7-eyed lamb. It is about changing and developing perceptions of the same darn things everyone is looking at and has been looking at from the beginning (whenever that was).
But here is one minor complexity that may help keep from fundamentalist singular-meaning:
Every truth and principle and spirit and thing is best viewed through a multi-faceted lense (which is disorienting, like new glasses, but takes practice). All 7 spiritual planes (and things) apply to inner/outer/collective/individual. But we are best to start at inner-individual, because it is our most direct route to the divine. The shortest trip. The only hope we have of entering heaven in one lifetime. It is the eye of the needle. And the inner-alone is the only one available to a naked soul in the dark.
But we often get stuck in outer-individual/collective. Where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, the BOR says. Nothing but anger and sorrow in the outer world where the source of light comes from so far away we do not even know where it comes from. Now that is seperation from God.
Gotta go.
Love you guys.
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Schwaigers
It's nice to discuss this stuff with people who still know how to think.
The other part of my original question was in regards to why TWI focused so much on devil spirits. I mean ... just think about the detailed junk we were taught about the "dark side". Is there any other group that knows so much - or claims to know so much - about evil spirits?
Now here's a wild idea: I have a friend, an ex-TWI friend, who insists that LCM is the Antichrist. He believes that the whole TWI system was designed intentionally to pull people away from Christianity and toward Satan.
Thus the focus on the Adversary. Thus the absence of Christ in the majority of teachings. Where was Jesus in the "Athletes of the Spirit" production? When did we have any classes on the Gospels? (They were said to be Old Testament books, remember?) And lightning will strike you down if you pray to Jesus. And "Jesus Christ is Not God". And on and on and on and on.
Compare this with the in-depth emphasis on the devil. What do you think?
-Pat
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sirguessalot
Hi Pat.
I won't boggart the thread this time.
But just wanted to say thanks for starting the conversation and for letting me roam a bit.
Its been like a cool glass of water in the desert.
Maybe we/they just misunderstood the Timothy verses that warned against teaching doctrines of devils.
Perhaps the writings simply warn us against getting wrapped-up in doctrines of devils.
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ckeer
I thought I’d Quote from Sir Guessalot -This is from the forth post on the second page of the an interpretation of tongues that he linked to earlier. This was originally written in Feb of 2004. It looks like he agreed with you:
As for my opinion I don’t think LCM is the Anti-Christ or that TWI is The Ministry of Satan partly be cause it simply gives them to much credit- LCM and the ministry simply aren’t that significant in the over all affairs of the world, God and satan. They could be described as anti-Christ though because they taught and acted from wrong doctrine and still don’t have appeared to have genuinely repented and begun to restore themselves and moved onwards much less back upwards. I also don’t think that Satan had to work all that hard to deceive VPW, LCM, the ministry or you or I when we were an active, willing part of it. We pretty much did it to ourselves, because it is our nature. This is because we were limited by the primary assumptions of this ministry which of course came from VPW. This also led to the fascination with devil spirits. The two primary assumptions that I think lead to this are that first there is only one correct interpretation to the Bible, and second that there were a system of logical rules that could be applied to find it.
This comes back to human nature seeking to understand by organizing, defining and setting relationships in order to understand “The Truth”. We love to make lists and connect them in patterns to connect the dots so to speak. We seek order and rationality to discern cause and effect so we might be able to control them or at least avoid pain and also some of us do it because we wish to know God and our relationship with him and our place in His creation. We usually fail to realize that the more rigorously and precisely we define these lists and their relationships to the exclusion of any others that we have probably limited or understanding of the Whole Truth of the truths we seek.
Several years before I became involved with TWI and in the mid seventies I read a book called:
Alternate Realities: The Search for the Full Human Being by Lawerence Leshawn.
In this book he listed four or five different belief systems that he saw in the world and an ideal new one that I consider the foundation for “New Age Thinking”. Each reality had a set of rules or assumptions. The thing that struck me was they all had the same last rule.
The last rule was always: This is the only valid reality, all other realities are invalid. Sound like TWI? All cults are like this, but so are societies. From this I have defined what I call alternate reality 22- after catch 22 by J Heller. I looked up this explanation of catch 22 at http://www.bellmore-merrick.k12.ny.us/catch22.html
Catch 22-
This also reminded me of TWI and the fact that there are stated rules in an alternate reality and unstated, hidden or denied rules (if you point it out you are punished and shown how wrong you are) in cults. Catch 22 was one of these rules in TWI.
Anyhow Alternate Reality 22 has only two rules: First- There is no single valid reality. Second and last- This is the only valid reality, all other realities are invalid
:)-->
I now use this reality to remind me to stay flexible and shift my personal alternate realities.
Now to apply this to the devil spirit fascination of TWI, I remember in the old Renewed Mind class about the correct and incorrect ways to stop thinking about hamburgers. Don’t tell yourself not to think about hamburgers, think about something completely different.
But with devil spirits we kept being reminded of devil spirits. Part of the beliefs I remember having about TWI that I think were widely accepted and promoted by leadership (even today I expect) were that “we” were not religious because God despised religion and it was mans attempt to perfect himself. “We” focused on the spiritual not the physical. “We” were the church of grace, not of the law. “We” found genuine liberty by learning to walk in love, not the bondage of walking by the five senses in fear. “We” worshiped God in spirit and truth and did not commit idolatry.
Because there is only one way to rightly divide the Word of God, and we can and have discovered the keys to its self interpretation, we can tell you with scientific exactness and mathematical precision what it says about anything that pertains to life and godliness. Therefore we can tell you exactly how should act, and think so that we can all be a clone of Christ and we can all enter a paradise on earth today that we are going to call the faithful household of the prevailing word and if you don’t do it its your own damn fault! Because you are possessed since to not want or be able to follow along with us can only be due to devil spirit influence.
By trying to precisely define the walk of the spirit, it became a walk in the flesh, By focusing on the characteristics, abilities, methods and devices of devil spirits we ended up “discerning” them every where all the times. Thus we magnified them, worshiped and idolized them. They became a source of fear motivation not love and we were so busy trying to find and avoid the things that carried them we were walking by the five senses. The only way to keep up was to keep tapping in to the teachings and rely on the spiritual maturity of way corpse leadership. And in their quest to achieve this grand quest they drove rather than lead us and kept us chasing our own tails to get the devil spirits off our own backs faster and faster, thus farther from the grace of God for we could not be still.
Thus TWI manifested Job 3:25 “For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.” as a result of catch 22.
I think that this occurs when ever a rigid Alternate Reality inevitably reconciles itself with the genuine, complete reality that cannot be defined by any belief system that includes the universal last rule- This is the only valid reality, all others are invalid.
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Schwaigers
Ckeer, you're really smart. -Pat
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ckeer
Thanks
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year2027
God first
Hi Ckeer
God bless your heart of love and your fight to understand truth along side of all us with the seed of Christ within us
Was LCM a anti Christ or was the Way a anti Christ Church
Lets think it over a bite more if that is ok
What was the thing the Way did over and over that could be called anti Christ
They got us to question the seed within us against the bible or their personal teaching that were for sale
If you ask me that is a anti Christ action
If we believe in God and we believe its Christ in us teaching us on a daily basis which is what and who we live by
If check it against the bible, other books like PFAL, or any man but we need to trust it and learn to walk by it as we grow in truth learning from it
Yes that was an anti Christ actions but did they do it out of wrong teaching of the flesh or a love for the fleslly things
They sold us classes to build up our spirit but they could not because all they could do is help us know what to talk to our spirit about Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit flesh can not teach spirit but spirit can teach the flesh
Why you ask because spirit knows all now but the spirit learns sec by sec You see the spirit is connected with God’ s spirit who is the creater of all truths while men is the creater of all lies
The bible saids the spirit can not lie but the Way saids check the words of tongues against the bible If that not anti Christ than what is
Lets trust God and the seed of Christ within us
with love Roy
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gammacoffey
Seems to me there is alot of info about spiritual beings in the first 3 chapters of Rev. And some of them fly.
As far as discerning of spirits go. Dale Sides has given good advice. If someone is not seeing twice as many good spirits as bad ones then there just might be a problem with proper balance.
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