I always wondered about that myself. Harry did empty his checking account to give it to twi on numerous occasions. If he were in on a scam, he did a good job covering it up from the IRS. If not, he probably got some legitimate tax writeoffs. Who knows.....guess it doesn't matter anymore.
quote:Do you think Harry W was in on the scam his slick brother was running ...
Broad blanket statements like this throw me off. First, you might want to try convincing folks that twi-1 was a scam to begin with. If that question is settled in the affirmative, then question whether Uncle Harry was in on "the scam."
Something I would consider "scam-like" is Dr's definitions and supposed results of tithing. But that wasn't the whole ministry.
Well let`s see...what we were offered a class that would teach us *where to find the answeres to all of lifes questions*
What the COST that they never told us about...ended up being decades of life wasted in our soul focus and service to said group....outragious abuses to be endured......tens of thousands of dollars ... family...friends...sanity....
Me neither Krys...I think a lot of people honestly bought into vp`s speil...maybe even his brothers...maybe he even believed it himself.....doesn`t change the fact either way that we were scammed out of a lot.
They grew up together in a small town. Went to school together, chased around together. How many secrets do you think younger brother Vic could keep from (a supposedly business-savy) older brother Harry?
As far as that goes, we only have Harry's word for it that:
1. He made a million dollars reupholstering furniture.(!)
2. He financed the "launch" of WayWorld (even if he did, what agreements were made to him?)
3. He emptied out his checkbook every year and gave it all to WayWorld (what did he do with any other monies that may have been in that account before the "emptying"?)
He may have had a happier, simpler, easier-to-approach demeanor, but he was still a Wierwille. I kinda think maybe he liked sharing in his kid brother's scam.
I DID notice while at WayWorld that, all his supposed fortune notwithstanding, Harry didn't provide too well for his own. His wife lived in a shabby little hovel, his old car (a Caddy) was a big, lack-luster, dented-up tank, and - were it not for meals at TWI, I think the poor lady (who was as sweet as pie, make no mistake) may well have starved to death.
I never knew him personally, but I'm no longer under the spell of WayWorld propoganda, and think that maybe he put his pants on one leg at a time, like all the rest of us...
While I'm thinking about it, Harry knew damn good and well that the money he was "giving" to WayWorld wasn't going to any philanthropic cause. It was buying brother Vic new toys, new product (classes, tapes, books, etc.), and promoting the business (er, ministry).
He was the secretary/treasurer for gawd's sake. You think he didn't know what was happening to the dough?
I knew Uncle Harry, and he was sweet man. He was a giver to the max. He "rescued me" one day from Del Duncan who thought that I was some kind of an "infiltrator" from the IRS when I was visiting the The Way HQ for my first time as a new grad. He told Del to leave me and my bud alone and to get us something to eat! And it as genuine.
I don't think that even VP started the whole thing as a scam, but rather, as the power grew, the corruption came in. As the saying goes:
"Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely".
I think that the intial goal was to help people, but as these conservative Ohioans began to see the money flow and the halter topped bra-less babes (all of you forty and fifty somethin gals posting and reading here) started showing up and giving holy kisses and honest, good old big hearted hugs, the old boys couldn't handle it and went the way that we see countless initially good people go. It's all over the O.T., and in the NT as well. They went after the flesh, a common theme in the Bible, and well, the rest is history, with all the sordid details...
I didn't know "Uncle Harry" at all - only through his image which appeared as a cross between Burl Ives and Colonal Sanders, upon whose life and legend we were exhorted to burn our books and records.
Why burn and trash our cherished (but apparently devilish) mementos in memory of this celebrated, brother War-bucks goober? he helped build the ministry, was a big giver and was pretty good with money- therefore we should trash our stuff (and torch our devilish influences) in his honor?
Weird.
Very weird.
Now it may have been more appropriate and understandable if we were encouraged to give stuff away to those in need, rather than trash it. That would have been more "Christian" it seems.
I also knew Harry...not all THAT well, but I knew him. If he indeed was as successful in the furniture business as they claimed, he certainly saw the potential AND the realization of his investment, as it grew quite considerably. I think he was very trusting of Vic and even if nothing was on paper, he figured it was all in "the family" and he could "dip" whenever he wanted to.
I'm sure that Harry recognized a goldmine when he saw one...Veepee was running a damn twig in his house until Harry came along with the dough and his book keeping skills...I believe that the time of Harry's financial investment coincides with Veepee beginning to teach "tithing"...Previously, he had taught that Christians don't have to tithe...when the money came, the teaching curiously changed...Veepee ( and Harry) saw the need for a little revenue coming in to support their new "business". A lot of old timers split with Veepee when that happened. He then printed "Christians should be preposterous" and the rest is history.
Hmm... was the secretary treasurer aware of what was occurring in an organization? Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, Enron! And every other scam in the past few years.
I see three possible choices:
1. Harry knew what was going on in his own group and was an accomplice
2. He was a total doofus that was around constantly and still ignorant.
3. He was aware but chose to ignore it for some reason.
In any case, he was a company officer and therefore responsible for it's behavior. Just like the Enron guys in jail now. Was he willingly part of a scam? God knows his heart, not me.
This is amazing. My whole image of UH is being shattered right before my eyes. I never thought about these things, but the fact that tithing wasn't taught until UH got involved is pretty interesting.
Danny, when you put it like that we do sound pretty silly throwing stuff away in celebration of a man (but we don't worship men). I did mention giving away some things they suggested I throw away and they told me that it would just be passing to someone else the devil spirits and the evil associations with the things.
"Everything give off something" they would say but then they make fun of fung shui and "spiritualists". When I'm not blinded by their logic it's so easy and painful to see how idiotic the things are that I believed.
Reminds me again of Al Capone. To the little man on the street he was worshiped for his giving deeds but was neck deep in criminal activity. Al never veiwed himself as a criminal but as a buisness man that did good.
WOW, putting the brothers together...I wonder if their manipulation was a genetic thing?
Excathedra, I'm sorry this happened to you. Peices me off that both the brothers took advantage of you and lived like it was a right. D@m them both.
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Nottawayfer
I always wondered about that myself. Harry did empty his checking account to give it to twi on numerous occasions. If he were in on a scam, he did a good job covering it up from the IRS. If not, he probably got some legitimate tax writeoffs. Who knows.....guess it doesn't matter anymore.
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oldiesman
Something I would consider "scam-like" is Dr's definitions and supposed results of tithing. But that wasn't the whole ministry.
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excathedra
WwW doesn't have to convince me about "twi#1"
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rascal
Well let`s see...what we were offered a class that would teach us *where to find the answeres to all of lifes questions*
What the COST that they never told us about...ended up being decades of life wasted in our soul focus and service to said group....outragious abuses to be endured......tens of thousands of dollars ... family...friends...sanity....
Yup sounds like a *scam* to me :-)
What has that inocuous little class cost you?
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krys
Hindsight is always 20-20. I'm not so sure that in the very early days...it was begun as a scam!
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rascal
Me neither Krys...I think a lot of people honestly bought into vp`s speil...maybe even his brothers...maybe he even believed it himself.....doesn`t change the fact either way that we were scammed out of a lot.
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George Aar
Hey, the two were brothers.
They grew up together in a small town. Went to school together, chased around together. How many secrets do you think younger brother Vic could keep from (a supposedly business-savy) older brother Harry?
As far as that goes, we only have Harry's word for it that:
1. He made a million dollars reupholstering furniture.(!)
2. He financed the "launch" of WayWorld (even if he did, what agreements were made to him?)
3. He emptied out his checkbook every year and gave it all to WayWorld (what did he do with any other monies that may have been in that account before the "emptying"?)
He may have had a happier, simpler, easier-to-approach demeanor, but he was still a Wierwille. I kinda think maybe he liked sharing in his kid brother's scam.
I DID notice while at WayWorld that, all his supposed fortune notwithstanding, Harry didn't provide too well for his own. His wife lived in a shabby little hovel, his old car (a Caddy) was a big, lack-luster, dented-up tank, and - were it not for meals at TWI, I think the poor lady (who was as sweet as pie, make no mistake) may well have starved to death.
I never knew him personally, but I'm no longer under the spell of WayWorld propoganda, and think that maybe he put his pants on one leg at a time, like all the rest of us...
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George Aar
While I'm thinking about it, Harry knew damn good and well that the money he was "giving" to WayWorld wasn't going to any philanthropic cause. It was buying brother Vic new toys, new product (classes, tapes, books, etc.), and promoting the business (er, ministry).
He was the secretary/treasurer for gawd's sake. You think he didn't know what was happening to the dough?
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excathedra
well the old bastard felt me up the first time i walked on holy headquarters grounds
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J0nny Ling0
I knew Uncle Harry, and he was sweet man. He was a giver to the max. He "rescued me" one day from Del Duncan who thought that I was some kind of an "infiltrator" from the IRS when I was visiting the The Way HQ for my first time as a new grad. He told Del to leave me and my bud alone and to get us something to eat! And it as genuine.
I don't think that even VP started the whole thing as a scam, but rather, as the power grew, the corruption came in. As the saying goes:
"Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely".
I think that the intial goal was to help people, but as these conservative Ohioans began to see the money flow and the halter topped bra-less babes (all of you forty and fifty somethin gals posting and reading here) started showing up and giving holy kisses and honest, good old big hearted hugs, the old boys couldn't handle it and went the way that we see countless initially good people go. It's all over the O.T., and in the NT as well. They went after the flesh, a common theme in the Bible, and well, the rest is history, with all the sordid details...
Now flame me...
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Tom Strange
Brother Lingo, I won't flame you. I just think your glasses are still somewhat rosy...
I was wondering when myseestorEx would chime in...
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dmiller
When it came to the money -- Geo has to be right.
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Oakspear
Even assuming Lingo's memory is accurate, being a nice guy doesn't preclude one from being "in on the scam".
I concur with those who note that someone who was Secretary-Treasurer would surely not be in the dark as to the TWI goings-on.
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TheInvisibleDan
I didn't know "Uncle Harry" at all - only through his image which appeared as a cross between Burl Ives and Colonal Sanders, upon whose life and legend we were exhorted to burn our books and records.
Why burn and trash our cherished (but apparently devilish) mementos in memory of this celebrated, brother War-bucks goober? he helped build the ministry, was a big giver and was pretty good with money- therefore we should trash our stuff (and torch our devilish influences) in his honor?
Weird.
Very weird.
Now it may have been more appropriate and understandable if we were encouraged to give stuff away to those in need, rather than trash it. That would have been more "Christian" it seems.
Danny
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GrouchoMarxJr
I also knew Harry...not all THAT well, but I knew him. If he indeed was as successful in the furniture business as they claimed, he certainly saw the potential AND the realization of his investment, as it grew quite considerably. I think he was very trusting of Vic and even if nothing was on paper, he figured it was all in "the family" and he could "dip" whenever he wanted to.
I'm sure that Harry recognized a goldmine when he saw one...Veepee was running a damn twig in his house until Harry came along with the dough and his book keeping skills...I believe that the time of Harry's financial investment coincides with Veepee beginning to teach "tithing"...Previously, he had taught that Christians don't have to tithe...when the money came, the teaching curiously changed...Veepee ( and Harry) saw the need for a little revenue coming in to support their new "business". A lot of old timers split with Veepee when that happened. He then printed "Christians should be preposterous" and the rest is history.
Was Harry in on the scam?...you betcha.
;)-->
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TheInvisibleDan
Very insightful "Uncle Hairy".
Danny
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JustThinking
Hmm... was the secretary treasurer aware of what was occurring in an organization? Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, Enron! And every other scam in the past few years.
I see three possible choices:
1. Harry knew what was going on in his own group and was an accomplice
2. He was a total doofus that was around constantly and still ignorant.
3. He was aware but chose to ignore it for some reason.
In any case, he was a company officer and therefore responsible for it's behavior. Just like the Enron guys in jail now. Was he willingly part of a scam? God knows his heart, not me.
JT
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lindyhopper
Another possiblility....
4. He saw what VP had going on and saw the potential and approached his brother with a business plan.
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Tom Strange
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JustThinking
Lindy,
Now that IS a possibility. If that were true, it would turn the whole view of WayWorld around. UH would be the man behind the curtain.
Interesting thought. He did bankroll VP and was instrumental in getting him started.
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Belle
This is amazing. My whole image of UH is being shattered right before my eyes. I never thought about these things, but the fact that tithing wasn't taught until UH got involved is pretty interesting.
Danny, when you put it like that we do sound pretty silly throwing stuff away in celebration of a man (but we don't worship men). I did mention giving away some things they suggested I throw away and they told me that it would just be passing to someone else the devil spirits and the evil associations with the things.
"Everything give off something" they would say but then they make fun of fung shui and "spiritualists". When I'm not blinded by their logic it's so easy and painful to see how idiotic the things are that I believed.
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excathedra
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excathedra
danny, hurry....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...73&category=378
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imbus
Reminds me again of Al Capone. To the little man on the street he was worshiped for his giving deeds but was neck deep in criminal activity. Al never veiwed himself as a criminal but as a buisness man that did good.
WOW, putting the brothers together...I wonder if their manipulation was a genetic thing?
Excathedra, I'm sorry this happened to you. Peices me off that both the brothers took advantage of you and lived like it was a right. D@m them both.
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