My opinion would be to run as far and as fast as you can away from him/her. You will eventually be pressured to join TWI.
Twi is a cult. I wasted eight years of my life in that organization. And, it took many more years to recover. I was young, single and not socially successful with women. A pretty woman witnessed to me. I met lots of women in TWI that seemed to care for me. They cared only as long as I was active in TWI.
Years later when I questioned certain things, those same people, who supposedly loved and cared for me, turned on me viciously.
Again, this is my opinion, but I think you will find similar opinions here.
There have been many things posted about how twi (the way international) has dominated peoples lives. The involvement might be small at first... then it grows like a weed. It's a cycle. The more you are involved, the more the "leadership" wants you be be involved.
You are very correct in "checking out" twi. At the very least, be very carefull with any involvement with twi and it's followers.
Questions you should ask:
1. What is the policy concerning adultry
2. What is the policy concerning disipline of children
3. What is the there difination of how a wife is supposed to "submit" to the husband?
4. How much of your income is supposed to go to twi.
5. How much of your time is expected of you (going to fellowships, functions etc...)
6. What is "mark and avoid"?
This is not an all inclusive list, but it's a start.
Nameles...........first off, welcome to gspot....I am SO glad that you are asking questions....it may save you the future DECADES of grief that most twi folks endure.
Let me be blunt ...may I? No self respecting wafer would consider serious entanglement with a *non* believer...Trust me...they have had *be not unequally yoked* pounded into their thick heads.
You are nothing more than a *mark*...a potential recruit for their organisation....watch it unfold and remember my words...
1st off...they will say...oh honey...I just COULDN`T get serious about anyone who didn`t go to fellowship and learn how to believe right...
2nd ...they would say...you can`t fully understand the things of God unless you take this class...
3rd ...though you have taken the class you are not spiritually *mature* enough for me untill you have completed the beginning intermediate and advanced classes...gone way desciple...way corpes..whatever.
To be brutal candid....if not interested in twi,,,you will never be more than a *plaything*...never worthey of tru respect or equality...
How do you feel about giving 15 percent of your income? If you marry....consulting with leadership over every single solitary detail of your life right down to when you intend to have sex together ... how bout asking permission to go out of town?
How do you feel about face melting vein popping spittle flying screaming in your face for an hour or two if you inadvertantly displease your leadership?
Sound appealing??? Then I`ll add my voice to those and scream RUUUUUUUUUN fast as you can and never look back.
Nameless...welcome to the Grease spot cafe. Jackmm offers some sound advice. If the relationship is only a couple of months old...I would strongly suggest that you pull the plug on it, slip out the back Jack, make a new plan Stan...
Twi is an insideous little cult that robs people of their own opinions, their time, money, careers, homes, friends, families and a lot of other things that I can't even think of now. If you stay with this girl, you will absolutely be forced, eventually, to either join the cult or she will split with you...
Twi is best described as a Christian organization without Christ. They deny his active role in Christian activity by declaring him "absent". The role that Christ traditionally plays within the church is filled by the president of twi, a rather presumptuous and unattractive former underling of the cults founder, Veepee wierwille. Twi has all the qualifications neccessary to consider it a cult. Believe me, I was involved for 13 years and have now been out for 17. Ask your girlfriend the followings questions:
1-Is it ok with you, if I NEVER get involved with twi in any capacity?
2-Would you consider trying out a different Christian church instead of twi?
3-Are you aware of what has been said by thousands of former members of twi? Perhaps using the Greasespot cafe as an example.
Consider yourself fortunate, that you were bright enough to check out the web for "other opinions" on "The Way"...They may seem like really nice folks but I'll bet that the poison Koolaid that the cult followers of Jim Jones drank tasted really good too.
Nameless, the parents wouldn't be named B*ll and Marc*a, would they?
The usual course of events with wayfers is this: things will be going along nicely for a while, and then the pressure to attend fellowship and functions will start slowly and build to a crescendo, at which point you will be asked to make a commitment or leave.
By that time you will have invested so much emotional capital that it would be difficult to break up with your significant other. But not impossible.
People who are in the way by choice are committed to it as their whole life. It's not like a religious belief or church activity. It forms the whole basis of who they are, what they do, who they socialize with etc.
If the person you are seeing got involved as a young child then perhaps their involvement is not by choice, but by lack of knowing what else to do. Perhaps as they aged they realized getting away from the way would mean cutting themselves off from their family and they chose not to do that. Or perhaps they ARE involved by their own choice and are completely comitted.
I would ask how they got involved, and why they stay involved. See how you feel about the answers. Way folks are usually happy to talk about how they got involved.
Part of the advice I'd give depends on what you mean by "I am currently dating" and what you want out of the relationship.
If the person you are dating is one of many you are currently dating, and if the relationship is on the casual side, I would strongly suspect that this person is being nice to you as an enticement to get you involved.
If this is a more serious relationship, the same may be true. It also may be that the person is seeing you as a form of rebellion and possibly a way out for themselves. That is a burden you best learn a lot about before you decide to bear it - we're not talking about something as simple as supporting a person while they make a career change. (As if that is simple.)
I would have a conversation about the future of the relationship, how this person feels about your not being a religious person, and what would they feel if you didn't change. And I'd be on the alert for the person not being totally truthful with you - at worst because they are actively trying to decieve you into joining and at best because people in the way don't often know what they really think or feel about anything. In fact they are encouraged only to think what their leaders tell them and to deny any feelings they have to the contrary.
FYI - Just to put my comments in perspective, I was invloved in the way for 16 years. I was ordained and a leader. However it was a while ago. From what I've heard, things have gotten much more hard core since then.
If you tell your friend that you have been reading on the internet....they will probably tell you that it is all lies....that we who have left are evil, disgruntled ex members with an ax to grind....
What you need to ask yourself or your friend...is why the organisation whom once boasted of 100,000 believers in 62 countries with several campuses..numerous training centers...has dropped in membership to a paltry less than 5000?
Why would tens of thousands of faithfull members end their involvement after dedicating DECADES of their lives to it`s support and movement?
Welcome to the cafe'. Rascal laid out what I believe is a very accurate timeline of your pending "involvement" with the Way, if you continue. I was in for over 10 years and lived near or served under Way leaders for some time. His comments were true in both states where I lived. And it's not coincidence as it is actively taught that involvement is a one-way street. Your date eventually comes to the Way or you leave the "unbeliever." NOOOOO middle ground at all. Period.
Also, I think UncleHarry's questions are an excellent, non-confrontational way to start a conversation on the topic. Question 3 will almost certainly provoke an emotional response so please be careful. It's a touchy subject for them. The organization promotes a very insulated lifestyle which ignores the outside world and opinions. Much of their time is wrapped up in the Way's functions. Anything that conflicts with Way doctrine is labelled "of the adversary" or "doctrines of devils." If you think back to Galileo and how the church treated him, you'll have a good picture of the Way. They'll burn you at the stake (by shunning you) until a new concept is proved right. Once something good does come out, they'll somehow take credit for it.
Finally, during my waning days with them, I saw an increase in single women being encouraged to "get out and date." Some were even encouraged to use dating services. The reason is the Way has shrunk significantly in the past decade leaving the pool of single adults in any given area very low. The Way will tell singles this but closely monitors (yes, they keep records on this) how much interest there is on your part. The person coordinating her local group will casually ask about you but then report back to higher leadership. If it becomes obvious that you have no intention of joining, there will be an increase in the pressure to drop you.
Absolutely(((JT))) there is nothing to forgive....No way that you could have known...lol, being as my handle is gender neutral, I didn`t think a thing about it....
WOW! I can't begin to thank you enough for all of your advice on this matter. Overall I think it is important for me to be aware of what some things to look out for may be, and you have given these to me. I am a real strong headed and can't see myself getting sucked into something like this. To tell you the truth, I never imagined it TWI was something like this, I have never gotten that impression, and have never felt like they were wanting me to be a part. I've never been asked to attend, or anything like that. My next question is....Do WAY parents not like their children dating nowayers? If they don't seem like they will become a part of WAY? At this point, I think I am just going to see how things go, and eventually bring it up for a topic of discussion. Your warning signs have been more than helpful and will give me a good idea of what to look out for. Are all wayers like this?? Or can some be non pushy and whatnot? Please keep opinions and ideas coming.....they are helping a lot!
quote:Nameless said: To tell you the truth, I never imagined it TWI was something like this, I have never gotten that impression, and have never felt like they were wanting me to be a part.
Just wait until you ask them some of those questions. Watch them carefully... you might notice perspiration, nervous ticks, heavy breathing...
nameless, another thing to keep in mind is that the person you are dating may be wanting to leave, or even their family. It's hard to break through to find out for the whole family, but you should be able to find out from your significant other what their plans are. If they don't want to leave, dump them.
Are all wayers like this?? Or can some be non pushy and whatnot? Please keep opinions and ideas coming.....they are helping a lot!
Obviously none of us can speak for anyone else. Most of us left the way because they expected us to. When I was in there was a range of how strongly way folks followed the perscribed life style. And there was a "pecking order" where those that followed more closely were seen as more spiritual and more likely to be chosen for leadership positions.
Since I left (the mid 1980's) I've heard that they have kicked people out for not following the "path". Recently, after the President was kicked out in a sex scandal (that was known about by many but nothing was done till there was a law suit) they are reputed to be "kinder and gentler" about this stuff.
Don't know how your date is responding or what pressure is being applied. Keep your eyes and ears open, and go with your gut.
"I am a real strong headed and can't see myself getting sucked into something like this."
Dear Nameless,
I too am strong willed. From the outside, no one would think I would ever get involved in a cult. Sometimes I think my strong headedness was my weak point that made me vulnerable to being sucked in to TWI.
People thought that I was very independant and didn't need much interaction from other people. I think being strong willed was a cover for my insecurities. Getting smother loved from people in TWI also was a large factor in getting sucked in.
You've been told some very useful information and I don't think I have much to add except to say this from experience (on both sides of the fence as dropper and droppee): Unless the person you're seeing is planning on leaving TWI, it can only lead to heartbreak. I wish I could say something else that gives even a glimmer of hope, but although the abuse is very subtle and gradual, it is still the same organization it has always been. In some respects it may be worse than before since it is so subtle.
Sorry, but that's the truth and I can't see it ever changing - the relationship won't work in the long run unless you are both committed to TWI and it would only work then UNTIL one of you left the organization. And it's not really a question of "if," it's a question of "when."
As one of the most recent "escapees" around these parts, I think I should update you on those questions:
1. What is the policy concerning adultery
This question is the same thing as saying "I've been reading stuff on the internet and I'm on to you." That's up to you. But... unless you are dealing with "leadership" that was privy to the stuff that was going on, they are under the impression that adultery was NEVER acceptable. Most Corps are newer these days and most were genuinely surprised to find out what was going on. There was teaching in the Corps very recently about adultery, and it was that it is wrong, wrong, wrong and will not be tolerated under any circumstances. Just an update on that situation. I know people who were leaders for 20 or 30 years who never would have considered adultery ever being anything but wrong and still refuse to believe that there were those who encouraged it. In my opinion, this isn't the best question to ask. "What happened to this Martindale guy?" may be a better question, if you ask me.
2. What is the policy concerning disipline of children
3. What is the there difination of how a wife is supposed to "submit" to the husband?
4. How much of your income is supposed to go to twi.
5. How much of your time is expected of you (going to fellowships, functions etc...)
These are all great, though little time is actually "expected" in the last year or two. People show up for a fellowship once a month if they want and no one says a word anymore. Your mileage may vary in your area but this is the general rule in most places now.
6. What is "mark and avoid"?
Great question, except this term has not been used in at least two years. The practice has fallen by the wayside so much that I doubt if newer Corps or coordinators have much experience or knowledge of it other than a brief mention of its mishandling in the past - always someone else's fault, of course. It is still a practical reality - if you leave and/or have hard questions or negative comments about Der Veg, you would eventually be shunned and treated as if "Mark and Avoid" is still the policy. The actual word from "leadership" is that it is not a policy and never really WAS a policy ("policy" redefined to the max here, which is a daily Way occurence) and was mishandled in the past. Good question but it will be dodged or explained away if they even understand what you're getting at.
I would add this question: 7. What is your understanding of debt? What happens if I want to buy a house or car? Oh, you are against it? How does one go about getting a decent car or escaping the rent rut, then?
Hope this helps, but the only advice I could really offer is to pull this person aside and have an honest conversation with them about their involvement in this organization and their plans for the future within or without the organization. I can't help but say that if this person plans on sticking with the cult, the only course that will avoid long-term heartache for you is to make a clean break now. I'm truly sorry to say that but I've been there and seen it countless times. So has everyone here who spent more than a few months in the Way.
Nameless...think about what you are saying...Do you think that we were all weak or stupid?
Of COURSE they don`t appear dangerous...they can`t say *welcome...come and join our cult...devote the rest of your life...finances ...freedome of choice and will to our worthey cause*
I would have vehemently denied these allegations while involved...because I believed what I suffered .. what I gave up ... what I endured was for God and the chance to grow spiritaully....
Wayfer parents usually control EVERY aspect of their childrens lives...even after 18 and going to college...
If this person dates you....eventually they will have to chose between you and twi...between you and every member of their family and every friend they have ....
The policy is called *mark and avoid* if the way person doesn`t do as their parents/leaders direct....and yes...non wafer spouses are right at the top of the no no list.
If this wafer choses you....they lose everything that has meaning in their life...they will be outside of the protection of the household of God...open to attack and death....
Do you think that this wafer cares enough for you to risk all of this?
Why do you think this is called *Grease spot cafe*?
It`s because the former leader...(who was tossed out for sexual misconduct)...declared that if we EVER dared turn our back on the ministry that taught us God`s word...we`d be a *grease spot by midnight*...you know...the greasy spot on the road thats left AFTER the dead body has been removed? Nice...eh?
I don`t know if you are a guy or a girl .... but trust me ...you don`t want to be a woman in twi....we are not treated well...but hey, we suck it up and take it on the chin cause thats how God designed it don`t ya know?
You have received some excellent advice on this thread, but let me just add... don't be suprised if you get smooth, rational answers to your questions. Answers that make all us onliners seem like whiney, sour-grapes quitters. You certainly won't be the first person who's asked them questions and most followers have actually been coached on just what to say to make your suspicions seem silly. (It's part of learning how to witness.)
By making those of us who have left (eh-hem... I am just one of many who got the boot after twenty years of attending every class, training program and event, and sending in 18% of my net paycheck every week, for merely asking too many pesky, persistent questions) ... anyway ... by making us seem irrational, emotional, overly-dramatic, fixated on past hurts, and without "biblical logic", they attempt to make themselves seem very cool-headed and Godly. Patient and forgiving, even.
And you should probably expect to hear that the former ministry president made some mistakes, but he's gone now so things are good again... never mind that no open admission or apology for everyone being forced to "follow his directives or leave" has EVER been made to the members at large, and most of them have no idea of all the lawsuits that have been brought against twi. (lack of information is a big key to their control)
To twi members, rank and authority are everything. They believe you are blessed by God by following the directives of your leadership (especially your husband) with your whole heart, whether they are wrong or not!!! The "wrongness" is an issue just between them and God, (not you) and you will be blessed for your OBEDIENCE. Get used to that word. It's one of their favorites. If you do obey but are not blessed, it's because you must not have been acting whole-heartedly.
OBEDIENCE. COMMITMENT. SUBMISSION. It's their mantra.
Again, I couldn't begin to thank you enough for all of your thoughts and advice. Rascal....I hope i did not offend you, I think you are anything but weak and stupid. You have given me a great insight on things. It is a tough situaiton to be in, especially cause I am pretty young, and honestly this is my first real relationship. I care about this person a lot, and don't really want to see things end, but also am willing to except the fact that sometimes that is for the best. I'm glad I checked things out for myself, and now have a better understanding for both sides. Either was this situations sucks! Thanks again to you all!!
Amen to all that TheHighway said, who speaks from strong experience.
And not only that, but a group we like to call the WayGB monitors this site closely, and will be ready with the answers to the specific questions posted here!
"I am a real strong headed and can't see myself getting sucked into something like this."
Yeah, all of us here at the 'spot were. Like Bob Marley said, "Don't let 'em fool ya". Twits will be REEEAL kind & lovin' right up to the point where they throw down the our Way or the highway ultimatum, & if you say no thanks, then you instantly become the worst thing since AIDS. You doing a search on them was good thinking. The questions the other posters have listed are damn good (watch the twits sweat as you ask...).
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jackmm
Dear Nameless,
My opinion would be to run as far and as fast as you can away from him/her. You will eventually be pressured to join TWI.
Twi is a cult. I wasted eight years of my life in that organization. And, it took many more years to recover. I was young, single and not socially successful with women. A pretty woman witnessed to me. I met lots of women in TWI that seemed to care for me. They cared only as long as I was active in TWI.
Years later when I questioned certain things, those same people, who supposedly loved and cared for me, turned on me viciously.
Again, this is my opinion, but I think you will find similar opinions here.
Jack
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Zshot
Nameless,
Welcome to GS.
There have been many things posted about how twi (the way international) has dominated peoples lives. The involvement might be small at first... then it grows like a weed. It's a cycle. The more you are involved, the more the "leadership" wants you be be involved.
You are very correct in "checking out" twi. At the very least, be very carefull with any involvement with twi and it's followers.
Questions you should ask:
1. What is the policy concerning adultry
2. What is the policy concerning disipline of children
3. What is the there difination of how a wife is supposed to "submit" to the husband?
4. How much of your income is supposed to go to twi.
5. How much of your time is expected of you (going to fellowships, functions etc...)
6. What is "mark and avoid"?
This is not an all inclusive list, but it's a start.
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WordWolf
This here site is your "one-stop shop" on such information.
The more you look around,
the more info you can find to make an informed decision.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main/editorial.htm
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/main/way-generated.htm
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/main/misc.htm
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/main/editorial.html
If you're more concerned about the lawsuits and all the times
twi was sued by people, there's a lawsuit archive off the main page,
as well.
There's a forum, "Greasespot 101", for getting up to speed on
twi and what it's about, also. Look down this board for it.
There are also various archives, depending on the subject you're
interested in. Want to find out how they ruin lives?
How leaders slandered ex-members? How leaders set the stage and set out
to rape and molest members? How leaders spent twi's money on luxuries
while telling the members they should send in all money about their
strict needs? How staff was paid less than minimum wage and live in
little cells, working over 70 hours a week, every week?
These answers, and so many more, are all in the archives.
As to short answers, I shall quote Dr Fraser Crane, who said:
"RUN LIKE THE WIND AND DON'T LOOK BACK!!!!!!!"
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rascal
Nameles...........first off, welcome to gspot....I am SO glad that you are asking questions....it may save you the future DECADES of grief that most twi folks endure.
Let me be blunt ...may I? No self respecting wafer would consider serious entanglement with a *non* believer...Trust me...they have had *be not unequally yoked* pounded into their thick heads.
You are nothing more than a *mark*...a potential recruit for their organisation....watch it unfold and remember my words...
1st off...they will say...oh honey...I just COULDN`T get serious about anyone who didn`t go to fellowship and learn how to believe right...
2nd ...they would say...you can`t fully understand the things of God unless you take this class...
3rd ...though you have taken the class you are not spiritually *mature* enough for me untill you have completed the beginning intermediate and advanced classes...gone way desciple...way corpes..whatever.
To be brutal candid....if not interested in twi,,,you will never be more than a *plaything*...never worthey of tru respect or equality...
How do you feel about giving 15 percent of your income? If you marry....consulting with leadership over every single solitary detail of your life right down to when you intend to have sex together ... how bout asking permission to go out of town?
How do you feel about face melting vein popping spittle flying screaming in your face for an hour or two if you inadvertantly displease your leadership?
Sound appealing??? Then I`ll add my voice to those and scream RUUUUUUUUUN fast as you can and never look back.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Nameless...welcome to the Grease spot cafe. Jackmm offers some sound advice. If the relationship is only a couple of months old...I would strongly suggest that you pull the plug on it, slip out the back Jack, make a new plan Stan...
Twi is an insideous little cult that robs people of their own opinions, their time, money, careers, homes, friends, families and a lot of other things that I can't even think of now. If you stay with this girl, you will absolutely be forced, eventually, to either join the cult or she will split with you...
Twi is best described as a Christian organization without Christ. They deny his active role in Christian activity by declaring him "absent". The role that Christ traditionally plays within the church is filled by the president of twi, a rather presumptuous and unattractive former underling of the cults founder, Veepee wierwille. Twi has all the qualifications neccessary to consider it a cult. Believe me, I was involved for 13 years and have now been out for 17. Ask your girlfriend the followings questions:
1-Is it ok with you, if I NEVER get involved with twi in any capacity?
2-Would you consider trying out a different Christian church instead of twi?
3-Are you aware of what has been said by thousands of former members of twi? Perhaps using the Greasespot cafe as an example.
Consider yourself fortunate, that you were bright enough to check out the web for "other opinions" on "The Way"...They may seem like really nice folks but I'll bet that the poison Koolaid that the cult followers of Jim Jones drank tasted really good too.
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Steve!
Nameless, the parents wouldn't be named B*ll and Marc*a, would they?
The usual course of events with wayfers is this: things will be going along nicely for a while, and then the pressure to attend fellowship and functions will start slowly and build to a crescendo, at which point you will be asked to make a commitment or leave.
By that time you will have invested so much emotional capital that it would be difficult to break up with your significant other. But not impossible.
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My3Cents
Hoo Boy! Welcome, Nameless.
Good move on the google thing.
People who are in the way by choice are committed to it as their whole life. It's not like a religious belief or church activity. It forms the whole basis of who they are, what they do, who they socialize with etc.
If the person you are seeing got involved as a young child then perhaps their involvement is not by choice, but by lack of knowing what else to do. Perhaps as they aged they realized getting away from the way would mean cutting themselves off from their family and they chose not to do that. Or perhaps they ARE involved by their own choice and are completely comitted.
I would ask how they got involved, and why they stay involved. See how you feel about the answers. Way folks are usually happy to talk about how they got involved.
Part of the advice I'd give depends on what you mean by "I am currently dating" and what you want out of the relationship.
If the person you are dating is one of many you are currently dating, and if the relationship is on the casual side, I would strongly suspect that this person is being nice to you as an enticement to get you involved.
If this is a more serious relationship, the same may be true. It also may be that the person is seeing you as a form of rebellion and possibly a way out for themselves. That is a burden you best learn a lot about before you decide to bear it - we're not talking about something as simple as supporting a person while they make a career change. (As if that is simple.)
I would have a conversation about the future of the relationship, how this person feels about your not being a religious person, and what would they feel if you didn't change. And I'd be on the alert for the person not being totally truthful with you - at worst because they are actively trying to decieve you into joining and at best because people in the way don't often know what they really think or feel about anything. In fact they are encouraged only to think what their leaders tell them and to deny any feelings they have to the contrary.
FYI - Just to put my comments in perspective, I was invloved in the way for 16 years. I was ordained and a leader. However it was a while ago. From what I've heard, things have gotten much more hard core since then.
Best of luck.
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rascal
If you tell your friend that you have been reading on the internet....they will probably tell you that it is all lies....that we who have left are evil, disgruntled ex members with an ax to grind....
What you need to ask yourself or your friend...is why the organisation whom once boasted of 100,000 believers in 62 countries with several campuses..numerous training centers...has dropped in membership to a paltry less than 5000?
Why would tens of thousands of faithfull members end their involvement after dedicating DECADES of their lives to it`s support and movement?
Questions that make you go hmmmmm.....
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Belle
Nameless,
I just posted part of my story in the My Story thread. It may give you an idea of how the group operates.
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JustThinking
Nameless,
Welcome to the cafe'. Rascal laid out what I believe is a very accurate timeline of your pending "involvement" with the Way, if you continue. I was in for over 10 years and lived near or served under Way leaders for some time. His comments were true in both states where I lived. And it's not coincidence as it is actively taught that involvement is a one-way street. Your date eventually comes to the Way or you leave the "unbeliever." NOOOOO middle ground at all. Period.
Also, I think UncleHarry's questions are an excellent, non-confrontational way to start a conversation on the topic. Question 3 will almost certainly provoke an emotional response so please be careful. It's a touchy subject for them. The organization promotes a very insulated lifestyle which ignores the outside world and opinions. Much of their time is wrapped up in the Way's functions. Anything that conflicts with Way doctrine is labelled "of the adversary" or "doctrines of devils." If you think back to Galileo and how the church treated him, you'll have a good picture of the Way. They'll burn you at the stake (by shunning you) until a new concept is proved right. Once something good does come out, they'll somehow take credit for it.
Finally, during my waning days with them, I saw an increase in single women being encouraged to "get out and date." Some were even encouraged to use dating services. The reason is the Way has shrunk significantly in the past decade leaving the pool of single adults in any given area very low. The Way will tell singles this but closely monitors (yes, they keep records on this) how much interest there is on your part. The person coordinating her local group will casually ask about you but then report back to higher leadership. If it becomes obvious that you have no intention of joining, there will be an increase in the pressure to drop you.
JT
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Steve!
Umm, JT, it's an easy mistake to make, because of internet anonymity, but Rascal is a she.
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JustThinking
OMG, Rascal, I am so sorry! :=| Forgive me?
Steve!,
Thanks for correcting me.
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rascal
Absolutely(((JT))) there is nothing to forgive....No way that you could have known...lol, being as my handle is gender neutral, I didn`t think a thing about it....
Thanks for the clarification Steve :-)
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nameless
WOW! I can't begin to thank you enough for all of your advice on this matter. Overall I think it is important for me to be aware of what some things to look out for may be, and you have given these to me. I am a real strong headed and can't see myself getting sucked into something like this. To tell you the truth, I never imagined it TWI was something like this, I have never gotten that impression, and have never felt like they were wanting me to be a part. I've never been asked to attend, or anything like that. My next question is....Do WAY parents not like their children dating nowayers? If they don't seem like they will become a part of WAY? At this point, I think I am just going to see how things go, and eventually bring it up for a topic of discussion. Your warning signs have been more than helpful and will give me a good idea of what to look out for. Are all wayers like this?? Or can some be non pushy and whatnot? Please keep opinions and ideas coming.....they are helping a lot!
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Tom Strange
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Mister P-Mosh
nameless, another thing to keep in mind is that the person you are dating may be wanting to leave, or even their family. It's hard to break through to find out for the whole family, but you should be able to find out from your significant other what their plans are. If they don't want to leave, dump them.
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My3Cents
Obviously none of us can speak for anyone else. Most of us left the way because they expected us to. When I was in there was a range of how strongly way folks followed the perscribed life style. And there was a "pecking order" where those that followed more closely were seen as more spiritual and more likely to be chosen for leadership positions.
Since I left (the mid 1980's) I've heard that they have kicked people out for not following the "path". Recently, after the President was kicked out in a sex scandal (that was known about by many but nothing was done till there was a law suit) they are reputed to be "kinder and gentler" about this stuff.
Don't know how your date is responding or what pressure is being applied. Keep your eyes and ears open, and go with your gut.
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jackmm
"I am a real strong headed and can't see myself getting sucked into something like this."
Dear Nameless,
I too am strong willed. From the outside, no one would think I would ever get involved in a cult. Sometimes I think my strong headedness was my weak point that made me vulnerable to being sucked in to TWI.
People thought that I was very independant and didn't need much interaction from other people. I think being strong willed was a cover for my insecurities. Getting smother loved from people in TWI also was a large factor in getting sucked in.
Jack
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Jason P
Hello, nameless...
You've been told some very useful information and I don't think I have much to add except to say this from experience (on both sides of the fence as dropper and droppee): Unless the person you're seeing is planning on leaving TWI, it can only lead to heartbreak. I wish I could say something else that gives even a glimmer of hope, but although the abuse is very subtle and gradual, it is still the same organization it has always been. In some respects it may be worse than before since it is so subtle.
Sorry, but that's the truth and I can't see it ever changing - the relationship won't work in the long run unless you are both committed to TWI and it would only work then UNTIL one of you left the organization. And it's not really a question of "if," it's a question of "when."
As one of the most recent "escapees" around these parts, I think I should update you on those questions:
1. What is the policy concerning adultery
This question is the same thing as saying "I've been reading stuff on the internet and I'm on to you." That's up to you. But... unless you are dealing with "leadership" that was privy to the stuff that was going on, they are under the impression that adultery was NEVER acceptable. Most Corps are newer these days and most were genuinely surprised to find out what was going on. There was teaching in the Corps very recently about adultery, and it was that it is wrong, wrong, wrong and will not be tolerated under any circumstances. Just an update on that situation. I know people who were leaders for 20 or 30 years who never would have considered adultery ever being anything but wrong and still refuse to believe that there were those who encouraged it. In my opinion, this isn't the best question to ask. "What happened to this Martindale guy?" may be a better question, if you ask me.
2. What is the policy concerning disipline of children
3. What is the there difination of how a wife is supposed to "submit" to the husband?
4. How much of your income is supposed to go to twi.
5. How much of your time is expected of you (going to fellowships, functions etc...)
These are all great, though little time is actually "expected" in the last year or two. People show up for a fellowship once a month if they want and no one says a word anymore. Your mileage may vary in your area but this is the general rule in most places now.
6. What is "mark and avoid"?
Great question, except this term has not been used in at least two years. The practice has fallen by the wayside so much that I doubt if newer Corps or coordinators have much experience or knowledge of it other than a brief mention of its mishandling in the past - always someone else's fault, of course. It is still a practical reality - if you leave and/or have hard questions or negative comments about Der Veg, you would eventually be shunned and treated as if "Mark and Avoid" is still the policy. The actual word from "leadership" is that it is not a policy and never really WAS a policy ("policy" redefined to the max here, which is a daily Way occurence) and was mishandled in the past. Good question but it will be dodged or explained away if they even understand what you're getting at.
I would add this question: 7. What is your understanding of debt? What happens if I want to buy a house or car? Oh, you are against it? How does one go about getting a decent car or escaping the rent rut, then?
Hope this helps, but the only advice I could really offer is to pull this person aside and have an honest conversation with them about their involvement in this organization and their plans for the future within or without the organization. I can't help but say that if this person plans on sticking with the cult, the only course that will avoid long-term heartache for you is to make a clean break now. I'm truly sorry to say that but I've been there and seen it countless times. So has everyone here who spent more than a few months in the Way.
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rascal
Nameless...think about what you are saying...Do you think that we were all weak or stupid?
Of COURSE they don`t appear dangerous...they can`t say *welcome...come and join our cult...devote the rest of your life...finances ...freedome of choice and will to our worthey cause*
I would have vehemently denied these allegations while involved...because I believed what I suffered .. what I gave up ... what I endured was for God and the chance to grow spiritaully....
Wayfer parents usually control EVERY aspect of their childrens lives...even after 18 and going to college...
If this person dates you....eventually they will have to chose between you and twi...between you and every member of their family and every friend they have ....
The policy is called *mark and avoid* if the way person doesn`t do as their parents/leaders direct....and yes...non wafer spouses are right at the top of the no no list.
If this wafer choses you....they lose everything that has meaning in their life...they will be outside of the protection of the household of God...open to attack and death....
Do you think that this wafer cares enough for you to risk all of this?
Why do you think this is called *Grease spot cafe*?
It`s because the former leader...(who was tossed out for sexual misconduct)...declared that if we EVER dared turn our back on the ministry that taught us God`s word...we`d be a *grease spot by midnight*...you know...the greasy spot on the road thats left AFTER the dead body has been removed? Nice...eh?
I don`t know if you are a guy or a girl .... but trust me ...you don`t want to be a woman in twi....we are not treated well...but hey, we suck it up and take it on the chin cause thats how God designed it don`t ya know?
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TheHighWay
Nameless,
You have received some excellent advice on this thread, but let me just add... don't be suprised if you get smooth, rational answers to your questions. Answers that make all us onliners seem like whiney, sour-grapes quitters. You certainly won't be the first person who's asked them questions and most followers have actually been coached on just what to say to make your suspicions seem silly. (It's part of learning how to witness.)
By making those of us who have left (eh-hem... I am just one of many who got the boot after twenty years of attending every class, training program and event, and sending in 18% of my net paycheck every week, for merely asking too many pesky, persistent questions) ... anyway ... by making us seem irrational, emotional, overly-dramatic, fixated on past hurts, and without "biblical logic", they attempt to make themselves seem very cool-headed and Godly. Patient and forgiving, even.
And you should probably expect to hear that the former ministry president made some mistakes, but he's gone now so things are good again... never mind that no open admission or apology for everyone being forced to "follow his directives or leave" has EVER been made to the members at large, and most of them have no idea of all the lawsuits that have been brought against twi. (lack of information is a big key to their control)
To twi members, rank and authority are everything. They believe you are blessed by God by following the directives of your leadership (especially your husband) with your whole heart, whether they are wrong or not!!! The "wrongness" is an issue just between them and God, (not you) and you will be blessed for your OBEDIENCE. Get used to that word. It's one of their favorites. If you do obey but are not blessed, it's because you must not have been acting whole-heartedly.
OBEDIENCE. COMMITMENT. SUBMISSION. It's their mantra.
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nameless
Again, I couldn't begin to thank you enough for all of your thoughts and advice. Rascal....I hope i did not offend you, I think you are anything but weak and stupid. You have given me a great insight on things. It is a tough situaiton to be in, especially cause I am pretty young, and honestly this is my first real relationship. I care about this person a lot, and don't really want to see things end, but also am willing to except the fact that sometimes that is for the best. I'm glad I checked things out for myself, and now have a better understanding for both sides. Either was this situations sucks! Thanks again to you all!!
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Steve!
Amen to all that TheHighway said, who speaks from strong experience.
And not only that, but a group we like to call the WayGB monitors this site closely, and will be ready with the answers to the specific questions posted here!
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Weout1200
Welcome, Nameless.
RUN AWAY FAST.
"I am a real strong headed and can't see myself getting sucked into something like this."
Yeah, all of us here at the 'spot were. Like Bob Marley said, "Don't let 'em fool ya". Twits will be REEEAL kind & lovin' right up to the point where they throw down the our Way or the highway ultimatum, & if you say no thanks, then you instantly become the worst thing since AIDS. You doing a search on them was good thinking. The questions the other posters have listed are damn good (watch the twits sweat as you ask...).
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