Dissent was not tolerated. This affected what people did with the results of their research.
Anyone who questioned or noticed too many discrepancies right off the bat either never took PFAL, or left soon after completing it.
No effort was ever made by "leadership" to address serious questions. We were put off with exhortations to "hold it in abeyance", or "keep working the Word and you'll understand it". Either that or we were labelled as troublemakers or asked "who are you to question Dr. Wierwille who has devoted his life to this...". So anyone who questioned after making it past the initial involvement was forced out or "meekly" decided to shut up.
There was NO mechanism for addressing errors, at least not at the local level. Most either "swallowed it" or left; neither course of action resulted in answers. Some stayed in, believing what they saw in the bible rather than the "company line", but had to keep their insights pretty much to themselves.
What "research" became, for most wayfers, was confirming what Wierwille and later Martindale had already come up with. You used your concordances and lexicons to cram the bible into the shape that they twisted it into.
During my last half dozen years "in", especially the final 18 months, I did a lot of studying and came up with a number of things that contradicted Way doctrine. When I presented my findings to leadership, no attempt was made to show me how I was wrong using the bible. I was exhorted to follow what the leaders taught, and trust that if there was anything that needed to be changed, God would show them, not me. My response was to say that someone would have to show me that I was wrong, or the Trustees would have to change what was being taught. As you can imagine that didn't go over very well.
Study became primarily reading Way materials, with the research books as little more than props.
Frankly, most Way people that I encountered, not only in the Martindale years, but even back in the 70's, were content to let the MOGs call the tune. In the late 90's I tried to get "research nights" organized, to teach people how to best use the concordances et al, but interest was minimal. Almost everyone that I knew had an interlinear in their home, but there was generally only a small minority who knew what to do with it, who could even transcribe the Greek letters, let alone tell the difference among the different parts of speech.
I recall when there would be scheduled "word study" nights. A group would sit around and do "word studies"...it was the equivilancy of a 7th grade class learning to use an encylepedia for the first time. It was painfully booring in it's simplicity and was about as enlightening as a fart in an elevator. Any conclusions reached either lined up with twi doctrine or were considered wrong. Any dissent was considered to be "spiritually immature".
For years I had an amazing nack of seeing nothing but twi doctrine when I read the bible...when it came to "research", I considered myself a neophyte when compared to the "spiritual heavies" of twi. I just went along...at least for awhile...
When Martindale took over as president, I went through a personal change, in regards to my confidence in twi in general. When Veepee said something, I simply believed it but when lcm would talk...it just didn't "resonate" with me in a very credible way. I suddenly gained a greater confidence in my own ability to understand the bible on my own...and then one day I discovered that I simply disagreed with king okie and gave more credence to my own opinion than to his...that was a liberating experience...especially when I vocalized my dissent and indignantly walked away. That was 17 years ago.
As I think back, I realize that twi had no business referring to themselves as a "research" anything. It was a fraud and a scam. I agree with the assessment that the research books were nothing more than props...it was nothing more than eyewash. Twi's "doctrine" was as entrenched as any denomination's, and when the fearless cult leader spoke...all "research" had better line up with he who speaks excathederal.
I was one of those people who really enjoyed using the greek, hebrew, etc. - all the research materials. I did a lot of word studies and looked up a lot of stuff I questioned.
I found out a lot of stuff they taught wasn't right. I remember realizing the whole Athletes of the Spirit thing was off the wall. Also, the adversary doesn't "compete" or play fairly, why should we? I never did get that.
Also realized "believing" was wrong, should be trusting in God to bring something about his way and in his time, not instructing him what we'd like, get a mind picture and "believe" for it. Other, simple things like that.
A couple of other things I found were wrong I did ask VPW about them and he would just say, go read such and such again. I would, and the answer was not there, but he'd ask me, did you read it, and I'd say, yes, thank you. I didn't tell him, the answer is not there. I just quit asking him about anything.
I always prepared my own teachings, never used the tapes or Way Mag - just, whatever God had put on my heart that week. But in those days you could do that, and were encouraged to. By the mid-80s it started to change.
Actually, in a lot of ways, I learned much more on my own with the concordances, etc. than I did with many of the teachings.
quote:How many of you actually cracked open a Greek /Hebrew Biblical lexicon and checked to see if Doctor Wierwilles interpretations of Greek/Hebrew words were correct?
Or did you just accept that he was right?
Im curious.
I just accepted he was right, without studying and verifying it. It all made so much sense, and I wasn't into research. Plus, the first few years, I greatly enjoyed the fellowship more than anything else, and left the researching and studying to others.
I will say this: Victor Paul repeatedly said that we should study the word for ourselves, to make it our own. In other words, don't just take his word for it; do your own research. Those who did do their own research, and then found flaws with Wierwilles, either held the flaws in abeyance (as was correctly stated previously), or left, because they probably weren't given answers to their questions that were acceptable enough for them to live with.
For those who stayed, it's obvious to me that there were other reasons why they hung around besides possible faulty research.
For me, the fellowship was quite excellent in the early years.
I "studied and researched" pretty much how Oakspeark described it: Re-read what was taught and look up the words in the concordance and other study materials, but just to re-read what they taught.
I never started doing any real studying until after I found WayDale. Then I found all kinds of errors and was confronted and treated like a big pain when I asked questions about the things I found. I had to quit asking because I was being accused of looking for things to quabble over and my family was afraid I was going to get the whole lot of us M&A.
well, my experience was similiar to that of Sunesis. In the way corps, it was known that there were things that didn't "line up." But whenever such things were questioned or mentioned, there was always some kind of excuse, reason, explanation whatever, that led one to believe that "research" was continuing, and unclear verses, subjects, whatever, would be dealt with.
Little did I know, that it was never gonna be "dealt with," and anybody who made too big a deal out of said "discrencies" got shut up, real quick like.
Uncle Hairy is right. PFAL was etched in stone, for all eternity, by the MOG, and "research" only existed to validate the doctrine of the MOG.
Recommended Posts
Oakspear
Dissent was not tolerated. This affected what people did with the results of their research.
Anyone who questioned or noticed too many discrepancies right off the bat either never took PFAL, or left soon after completing it.
No effort was ever made by "leadership" to address serious questions. We were put off with exhortations to "hold it in abeyance", or "keep working the Word and you'll understand it". Either that or we were labelled as troublemakers or asked "who are you to question Dr. Wierwille who has devoted his life to this...". So anyone who questioned after making it past the initial involvement was forced out or "meekly" decided to shut up.
There was NO mechanism for addressing errors, at least not at the local level. Most either "swallowed it" or left; neither course of action resulted in answers. Some stayed in, believing what they saw in the bible rather than the "company line", but had to keep their insights pretty much to themselves.
What "research" became, for most wayfers, was confirming what Wierwille and later Martindale had already come up with. You used your concordances and lexicons to cram the bible into the shape that they twisted it into.
During my last half dozen years "in", especially the final 18 months, I did a lot of studying and came up with a number of things that contradicted Way doctrine. When I presented my findings to leadership, no attempt was made to show me how I was wrong using the bible. I was exhorted to follow what the leaders taught, and trust that if there was anything that needed to be changed, God would show them, not me. My response was to say that someone would have to show me that I was wrong, or the Trustees would have to change what was being taught. As you can imagine that didn't go over very well.
Study became primarily reading Way materials, with the research books as little more than props.
Frankly, most Way people that I encountered, not only in the Martindale years, but even back in the 70's, were content to let the MOGs call the tune. In the late 90's I tried to get "research nights" organized, to teach people how to best use the concordances et al, but interest was minimal. Almost everyone that I knew had an interlinear in their home, but there was generally only a small minority who knew what to do with it, who could even transcribe the Greek letters, let alone tell the difference among the different parts of speech.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
I recall when there would be scheduled "word study" nights. A group would sit around and do "word studies"...it was the equivilancy of a 7th grade class learning to use an encylepedia for the first time. It was painfully booring in it's simplicity and was about as enlightening as a fart in an elevator. Any conclusions reached either lined up with twi doctrine or were considered wrong. Any dissent was considered to be "spiritually immature".
For years I had an amazing nack of seeing nothing but twi doctrine when I read the bible...when it came to "research", I considered myself a neophyte when compared to the "spiritual heavies" of twi. I just went along...at least for awhile...
When Martindale took over as president, I went through a personal change, in regards to my confidence in twi in general. When Veepee said something, I simply believed it but when lcm would talk...it just didn't "resonate" with me in a very credible way. I suddenly gained a greater confidence in my own ability to understand the bible on my own...and then one day I discovered that I simply disagreed with king okie and gave more credence to my own opinion than to his...that was a liberating experience...especially when I vocalized my dissent and indignantly walked away. That was 17 years ago.
As I think back, I realize that twi had no business referring to themselves as a "research" anything. It was a fraud and a scam. I agree with the assessment that the research books were nothing more than props...it was nothing more than eyewash. Twi's "doctrine" was as entrenched as any denomination's, and when the fearless cult leader spoke...all "research" had better line up with he who speaks excathederal.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
I was one of those people who really enjoyed using the greek, hebrew, etc. - all the research materials. I did a lot of word studies and looked up a lot of stuff I questioned.
I found out a lot of stuff they taught wasn't right. I remember realizing the whole Athletes of the Spirit thing was off the wall. Also, the adversary doesn't "compete" or play fairly, why should we? I never did get that.
Also realized "believing" was wrong, should be trusting in God to bring something about his way and in his time, not instructing him what we'd like, get a mind picture and "believe" for it. Other, simple things like that.
A couple of other things I found were wrong I did ask VPW about them and he would just say, go read such and such again. I would, and the answer was not there, but he'd ask me, did you read it, and I'd say, yes, thank you. I didn't tell him, the answer is not there. I just quit asking him about anything.
I always prepared my own teachings, never used the tapes or Way Mag - just, whatever God had put on my heart that week. But in those days you could do that, and were encouraged to. By the mid-80s it started to change.
Actually, in a lot of ways, I learned much more on my own with the concordances, etc. than I did with many of the teachings.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
I just accepted he was right, without studying and verifying it. It all made so much sense, and I wasn't into research. Plus, the first few years, I greatly enjoyed the fellowship more than anything else, and left the researching and studying to others.
I will say this: Victor Paul repeatedly said that we should study the word for ourselves, to make it our own. In other words, don't just take his word for it; do your own research. Those who did do their own research, and then found flaws with Wierwilles, either held the flaws in abeyance (as was correctly stated previously), or left, because they probably weren't given answers to their questions that were acceptable enough for them to live with.
For those who stayed, it's obvious to me that there were other reasons why they hung around besides possible faulty research.
For me, the fellowship was quite excellent in the early years.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WaywardWayfer
I "studied and researched" pretty much how Oakspeark described it: Re-read what was taught and look up the words in the concordance and other study materials, but just to re-read what they taught.
I never started doing any real studying until after I found WayDale. Then I found all kinds of errors and was confronted and treated like a big pain when I asked questions about the things I found. I had to quit asking because I was being accused of looking for things to quabble over and my family was afraid I was going to get the whole lot of us M&A.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
well, my experience was similiar to that of Sunesis. In the way corps, it was known that there were things that didn't "line up." But whenever such things were questioned or mentioned, there was always some kind of excuse, reason, explanation whatever, that led one to believe that "research" was continuing, and unclear verses, subjects, whatever, would be dealt with.
Little did I know, that it was never gonna be "dealt with," and anybody who made too big a deal out of said "discrencies" got shut up, real quick like.
Uncle Hairy is right. PFAL was etched in stone, for all eternity, by the MOG, and "research" only existed to validate the doctrine of the MOG.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.