The problems with VPW were not so much with the Greek words, (he wasn't much of a Greek or Hebrew student) but with his pick and choose method of stringing verses together, with lots of "private interpretation" wedged in between.
And of course there were discrepencies. The most salient example that comes to my mind is the "Athletes of the Spirit" teaching. But when confronted with that blatent, um, liberty taken with the Greek, he all but admitted that he had taken great liberties. But felt that he could, because he was, after all, "the teacher."
What's so ironic about the whole thing is that VPW led his students to believe that translating from Greek/Hebrew to English was an exact science. After all, it had to "fit like a hand in a glove."
Sometimes things fit and sometimes they didn't. The times it didn't, I would think that it was just in my own thinking and that someday I'd see it! -->
I did also, although I will have to admit that I do so more now, than then.
"Don't take my word for it, check the Word" (or something to that effect), was heard frequently from vpw. As Ex10 correctly points out, he was "The Teacher", so the folks who actually did so, were few and far between.
I got out the books to check, but not as much as I should have. Guess I studied it, while swallowing it.
FYI -- my mother (librarian to the end) always pushed "books" in our house. Tv was a very distant "second", and while I fall short of a lot of these "discources", I need to say thanks, for noticing that at least I try.
The athletic "analogy" was never an issue for me, though I have had others tell me I was wrong in ignoring it, listen to "the tape", see the production, etc.
The Adversary did not come to compete. Plain and simple. :)-->
That verse docvic quotes from the beginning of "da class" (John 10:10) shows this clearly. --> Maybe lcm knew something vpw didn't? Oh -- wait -- the times, they were a'changing.
It always amazed me, that an entire "dance", could be done around this subject.
Just about everybody that was around WayWorld for more than a few months owned all sorts of research materials.
Interlinears, lexicons, concordances, and naturally all the Way crap. And we DID use them quite frequently.
The problem was, whenever we came to a "difficult" verse of scripture (i.e., one that did not line up with Way dogma), we were instructed to "hold it in abeyance" (those questions regarding the discrepences) until we "got" it (accepted the Way's spin).
I had literally volumes of questions "held in abeyance" when I finally realized that the Vicster had been blowing smoke up my a$$ (for YEARS).
Amazing how long it takes for the light to come on sometimes...
Yeah George, Well in JDub land New recruits have a "Personal study" that may go for months where they are spoon fed 1 dribble of "Milk" at a sitting.
Deep internal doctrine such as at the "Bookstudy" or the "Service meeting" ( an equivalent to "corps meetings, I suppose)is reserved till they are well and truly absorbed into the Organization.
Thats what dubs call it George....THE ORGANIZATION (spoken in reverential tones)
Oh, anyway George, During the "personal study" period they are encouraged to put questions aside until theyve completed the program, which, of course, will answer all their questions by the time its completed.
How many of you actually _cracked open_ a Greek /Hebrew Biblical lexicon and checked to see if Doctor Wierwilles interpretations of Greek/Hebrew words were correct?
Or did you just accept that he was right?
Upon our first exposure of twi, some of us (myself included) might not have even known what a concordance or lexicon was at the time, much less know how to use those things.
A good many of us were fairly young when we first got involved. I was introduced to concordances and lexicons and interlinears through twi, which was actually a good thing. And for anyone starting out opening such reference volumes, they may take a bit of time and practice getting used to, before gaining enough confidence in one's own abilities to look up things to verify their own conclusions.
How does a 17 year old fool unschooled in the field of religion go about disagreeing with a seemingly seasoned and knowlegable fifty-something year old "Doctor"?
And who does not promote his theology as "theology" but as something of a hip
"un-theology"? (e.g., "true Christianity is not a religion"..compared to those other stodgey religious groups -bound to appeal to kids) - with the premise being emphasized that we would be taught and enabled to look stuff up in the amazing, supposed self-interpreting Bible for ourselves?
Sure you and I and everyone else are smarter and more experienced now, and can pose such questions. But the fact of our youth and inexperience when many of us were first exposed to W's teachings can't be overlooked.
I studied New Testament (Koine) Greek as part of my theology decree.
So was able to check greek words in my Greek New Testament but I never studied Hebrew. I was therefore aware that translation was not always an exact science and therefore went along with TWIs take in the translations that seemed to make things fit.
But I was also aware of variant readings on the same passages in some of the extant Greek texts - deciding which should be the preferred reading was a different ballgame. and could radically alter the meaning. For example there are texts which refer to Jesus as theos (god) instead of huios (son).
There are also passages, such as that regarding the woman taken in adultery, which are missing from some of the earliest texts completely and others which VP dismissed as "scratch it out, does not fit."
I wrote him once and asked him about the textual criticism issue. He replied that he did not know the answer to my question apart from it demonstrated an orientalism or Jesus' love for people. I realised that he was engaging in a pick and choose system and that the perfection he was so hung up upon wasn't always there. As in many other things he was dependant upon the work of others.
How many of you actually _cracked open_ a Greek /Hebrew Biblical lexicon and checked to see if Doctor Wierwilles interpretations of Greek/Hebrew words were correct?
Or did you just accept that he was right?
Im curious.
I did. At the time, I assumed that most people did.
Never really followed the SNT tapes, though every sub-patrol I went out on, I took at least one Bible and a Strong's or Young's Concordance (sometimes both). Various patrols I took other books, but in general space is limited when living under-water, the main constant ws that I always took a Bible and a concordance. My wife and I always had something planned to study. Usually it was something in conjuction with what the Twig was going to be studying while I was gone.
We really enjoyed it. I got into TWI while on my first boat; but after that each boat I was stationed on I was the Protestant Lay-Leader and as such I was charged with coordinating and leading all protestant services on board. Usually I did all burials at sea as well. Sometimes on various patrols my services got lumped together with LDS, Jewish, and Adventist. Depending on the holiday, I have done services combined with the Catholics (but rarely, as they have a very strict protocol which can not be varied).
Lexicons sometimes. But again rarely. As we were doing the Bible-Concordance word-studys. Most times we wrote it all up and presented it in in fellowship when I next surfaced.
Like others here, I definitely used my materials. However, if I can direct what evidence you see and don't then I can generally determine your conclusions. My opinion is that was a central part of TWI's control process.
quote:How many of you actually cracked open a Greek /Hebrew Biblical lexicon and checked to see if Doctor Wierwilles interpretations of Greek/Hebrew words were correct?
Or did you just accept that he was right?
I did quite a bit of work with lexicions and texts. And saw quite a few problems.
I was on of those renegades that never really swallowed everything that VPW taught. Well maybe at first, but soon after taking te PFAL class and doing independant study I began to see where Wierwille did not use his own keys to research very well at all.
At the time, my observations and protests were usually meet by my peers with looks of disgust or of condescending pity.
quote: ... During the "personal study" period they are encouraged to put questions aside until theyve completed the program, which, of course, will answer all their questions by the time its completed.
This is almost a direct quote from the PFAL class. I'm not sure if VP actually said it in the class itself, but I know that anyone running the class were instructed to tell the new students this. Scary!
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ex10
Refiner, I did.
The problems with VPW were not so much with the Greek words, (he wasn't much of a Greek or Hebrew student) but with his pick and choose method of stringing verses together, with lots of "private interpretation" wedged in between.
And of course there were discrepencies. The most salient example that comes to my mind is the "Athletes of the Spirit" teaching. But when confronted with that blatent, um, liberty taken with the Greek, he all but admitted that he had taken great liberties. But felt that he could, because he was, after all, "the teacher."
What's so ironic about the whole thing is that VPW led his students to believe that translating from Greek/Hebrew to English was an exact science. After all, it had to "fit like a hand in a glove."
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Refiner
Thank you.
Of course, Im not being a smarty pants and criticizing.
Regarding my own church, well, I swallowed it without question.
Im merely curious whether people here were more studious than I was.
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A la prochaine
Refiner,
Some were and were not.
Sometimes things fit and sometimes they didn't. The times it didn't, I would think that it was just in my own thinking and that someday I'd see it!
-->
Ya, I saw it alright...when I arrived on GS.
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dmiller
I did also, although I will have to admit that I do so more now, than then.
"Don't take my word for it, check the Word" (or something to that effect), was heard frequently from vpw. As Ex10 correctly points out, he was "The Teacher", so the folks who actually did so, were few and far between.
I got out the books to check, but not as much as I should have. Guess I studied it, while swallowing it.
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Refiner
I knew that YOU would crack open at least SOME books DM.
Being the studious type that you are.
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dmiller
Muchos Gracias!!!!!!!!!
FYI -- my mother (librarian to the end) always pushed "books" in our house. Tv was a very distant "second", and while I fall short of a lot of these "discources", I need to say thanks, for noticing that at least I try.
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dmiller
or were you being facetious??
-->
Either way, it doesn't matter.
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dmiller
I took it as a compliment.
:)-->
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WordWolf
Depends.
On certain subjects, I DID look them up myself
(like the "four crucified with Christ", and so on.)
Others, I figured I'd get around to eventually, like the contradiction
between athletic vs military imagery lcm pushed. I was working on that one
when lcm drew his line in the sand and I left. I think, eventually, I would
have examined a LOT of it, but some of that would have been years or decades
later.
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dmiller
The athletic "analogy" was never an issue for me, though I have had others tell me I was wrong in ignoring it, listen to "the tape", see the production, etc.
The Adversary did not come to compete. Plain and simple.
:)-->
That verse docvic quotes from the beginning of "da class" (John 10:10) shows this clearly.
--> Maybe lcm knew something vpw didn't? Oh -- wait -- the times, they were a'changing.
It always amazed me, that an entire "dance", could be done around this subject.
WW -- I hear you about the "years and decades".
I feel the same way.
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lindyhopper
David,
as the resident Lindy-hopper I must say a dance can be done about any subject.
Even say ..."spit or swallow"
I mean "study or swallow". he-he
now dance DANCE!
those aren't Jazz hands!
these are JAZZ HANDS!
lol I kill me.
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dmiller
I stand corrected --- SIR!
;)-->
To quote that country song -- "What was I thinking?"
:D-->
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George Aar
Refiner,
Just about everybody that was around WayWorld for more than a few months owned all sorts of research materials.
Interlinears, lexicons, concordances, and naturally all the Way crap. And we DID use them quite frequently.
The problem was, whenever we came to a "difficult" verse of scripture (i.e., one that did not line up with Way dogma), we were instructed to "hold it in abeyance" (those questions regarding the discrepences) until we "got" it (accepted the Way's spin).
I had literally volumes of questions "held in abeyance" when I finally realized that the Vicster had been blowing smoke up my a$$ (for YEARS).
Amazing how long it takes for the light to come on sometimes...
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Refiner
Yeah George, Well in JDub land New recruits have a "Personal study" that may go for months where they are spoon fed 1 dribble of "Milk" at a sitting.
Deep internal doctrine such as at the "Bookstudy" or the "Service meeting" ( an equivalent to "corps meetings, I suppose)is reserved till they are well and truly absorbed into the Organization.
Thats what dubs call it George....THE ORGANIZATION (spoken in reverential tones)
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Refiner
Oh, anyway George, During the "personal study" period they are encouraged to put questions aside until theyve completed the program, which, of course, will answer all their questions by the time its completed.
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TheInvisibleDan
Upon our first exposure of twi, some of us (myself included) might not have even known what a concordance or lexicon was at the time, much less know how to use those things.
A good many of us were fairly young when we first got involved. I was introduced to concordances and lexicons and interlinears through twi, which was actually a good thing. And for anyone starting out opening such reference volumes, they may take a bit of time and practice getting used to, before gaining enough confidence in one's own abilities to look up things to verify their own conclusions.
How does a 17 year old fool unschooled in the field of religion go about disagreeing with a seemingly seasoned and knowlegable fifty-something year old "Doctor"?
And who does not promote his theology as "theology" but as something of a hip
"un-theology"? (e.g., "true Christianity is not a religion"..compared to those other stodgey religious groups -bound to appeal to kids) - with the premise being emphasized that we would be taught and enabled to look stuff up in the amazing, supposed self-interpreting Bible for ourselves?
Sure you and I and everyone else are smarter and more experienced now, and can pose such questions. But the fact of our youth and inexperience when many of us were first exposed to W's teachings can't be overlooked.
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Trefor Heywood
I studied New Testament (Koine) Greek as part of my theology decree.
So was able to check greek words in my Greek New Testament but I never studied Hebrew. I was therefore aware that translation was not always an exact science and therefore went along with TWIs take in the translations that seemed to make things fit.
But I was also aware of variant readings on the same passages in some of the extant Greek texts - deciding which should be the preferred reading was a different ballgame. and could radically alter the meaning. For example there are texts which refer to Jesus as theos (god) instead of huios (son).
There are also passages, such as that regarding the woman taken in adultery, which are missing from some of the earliest texts completely and others which VP dismissed as "scratch it out, does not fit."
I wrote him once and asked him about the textual criticism issue. He replied that he did not know the answer to my question apart from it demonstrated an orientalism or Jesus' love for people. I realised that he was engaging in a pick and choose system and that the perfection he was so hung up upon wasn't always there. As in many other things he was dependant upon the work of others.
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Galen
I did. At the time, I assumed that most people did.
Never really followed the SNT tapes, though every sub-patrol I went out on, I took at least one Bible and a Strong's or Young's Concordance (sometimes both). Various patrols I took other books, but in general space is limited when living under-water, the main constant ws that I always took a Bible and a concordance. My wife and I always had something planned to study. Usually it was something in conjuction with what the Twig was going to be studying while I was gone.
We really enjoyed it. I got into TWI while on my first boat; but after that each boat I was stationed on I was the Protestant Lay-Leader and as such I was charged with coordinating and leading all protestant services on board. Usually I did all burials at sea as well. Sometimes on various patrols my services got lumped together with LDS, Jewish, and Adventist. Depending on the holiday, I have done services combined with the Catholics (but rarely, as they have a very strict protocol which can not be varied).
Lexicons sometimes. But again rarely. As we were doing the Bible-Concordance word-studys. Most times we wrote it all up and presented it in in fellowship when I next surfaced.
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JustThinking
Refiner,
Like others here, I definitely used my materials. However, if I can direct what evidence you see and don't then I can generally determine your conclusions. My opinion is that was a central part of TWI's control process.
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Goey
I did quite a bit of work with lexicions and texts. And saw quite a few problems.
I was on of those renegades that never really swallowed everything that VPW taught. Well maybe at first, but soon after taking te PFAL class and doing independant study I began to see where Wierwille did not use his own keys to research very well at all.
At the time, my observations and protests were usually meet by my peers with looks of disgust or of condescending pity.
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A la prochaine
Refiner,
This is almost a direct quote from the PFAL class. I'm not sure if VP actually said it in the class itself, but I know that anyone running the class were instructed to tell the new students this. Scary!
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excathedra
at first, no way
when i had to do a research paper to graduate from the way corps, i used all them there books
my research advisor thought i did a good job (he was a research type person and a lovely man)
today i feel research is no guarantee for truth or spirituality
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Tom Strange
There were discrepancies???
-->
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ex10
Tom,
Only one or two.
:D-->
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