Oh geeeze. White dove, I kindly beg to differ with your assessment of "ordination requirements" of churches. Most mainline denominations require some kind of academic degree for ordination. Not to mention, a proven track record of service, as well as "christian character." There are established, traditional "minimum requirements" for ordination. It's a weeding out process.
TWI would have done well if they had such requirements. I find it difficult to believe that serial adulterers, and emotional/sexual abusers get as far in the established systems, as they did in TWI. Yeah, of course it happens, but not on the scale that we have seen in TWI.
So, while we were in TWI could we have asked the state to defrock LCM? I understand those that left -- TWI did go to the state and defrock, but what if we went and showed MEN STILL IN to be sexual predators etc. Can we petition the state to defrock? Or is that against religious freedom.
EX10
I know here in Georgia we had a GIFTED male nurse who was ordained by our minister. And he is the GREATEST at teaching! Anyway he does not have a degree in theology.
Also one of the many churches we tried had a minister who "got the call" on his life and never attended any college.
So, I don't know. If you "get the call" do you just go tell someone you "got the call" and they ordain you?
It all seems so arbitrary - not the way God probably wanted it to be. But how would a state monitor it? I heard of a woman who started a sex church... Like the first church of the goodess Diana or something. I am unsure if she got recognized by the state but I think she was busted for prostitution and tried to claim it was a ministry.
(Would be weird if she was corps or something)
So, now what if an ordained person here decided to ordain RAF, Zix, Word Wolf or GOEY could it be done?
Ex-10 the question was not about mainline churches I would agree with you there. It was about fellowships.
Quote Q. So, suppose I think Raf has a gift ministry and I think he should be ordained and I run a fellowship.... Can I ordain him to the end he can get privellages from the "state"? Or can only an ordained person ordain another person?
If you have done the paperwork to establish yourself as a legal church then you can ordain people. I did not say that I agreed with that or it was my assessment just a legal fact. Anotherwords could but not necessaraly should.
Re The Way
I said Quote:
Ordination from a church decision is up to the elders,directors,trustee's or other governing body. It as you know does not always have anything to do with God. Money,political reasons,and pressure often were or are factors. The Way was no different and you are wise to question and consider these in regard to ministers.
Different denominations and churches have the autonomy to decide their qualifications for ordinations. Which is how it should be, IMO. It's the old seperation of church and state thing written into our constitution. Thank goodness.
The licensing by the state is a whole different category. Some duties performed traditionally by clergymen are also regulated by the state, to protect the public. For example, in most states if you're going to be marrying people, performing couseling services, practicing medicine, etc. there is an overlap with the state, which regulates those kinds of services.
But plenty of "ministerial duties" are not state licensed. If your nurse friend is a great bible teacher, and everybody in his church thinks so, and the minister wants to "ordain" him to teach in the church, well fine. But if he wanted to teach biology in a public school, he'd have to be licensed. And he probably has a license to practice nursing. The licensing procedure is basically to protect the public, and make sure that the people practicing are qualified to do what they are doing, and be let loose on unsuspecting pedestrians.
Churches are still pretty free to do what they want within their own boundaries. The official ordination licensing thing will get you a free parking space that says "reserved for clergy," and entree into a prison or hospital. And you can marry people. I'm sure there are more privileges that what I've mentioned. If you want your "ministry" to extend beyond the boundaries of your own particular church, then licensing by the state is required.
Otherwise, do your own thing, within your own boundaries. ;)-->
"I've always thought it was somewhat dishonest of those who were fired/and or left TWI to continue to use their "Rev." title. TWI did "defrock" them. So what's up with continuing to refer to yourself, and let others do so, as Rev?
In just about any other denomination that I know of, if you quit or are fired, you also leave the title behind. "
I agree
Now, I know what DM said
"JAL is certainly not "clergy" to twi anymore, but did they choose him? I think the heart of a man or woman determines the "clergyness" of an individual, and not the "nod" from the elders in an institution. "
But in all honesty, if he was ordained by QUESTIONABLE men then was he ordained or given a "title" by a cult?
Truly, I am not saying what has happened between he and God is not real. Tht is NOT the issue.
I KNOW wonderful people who fought against the ills of TWI who were treated badly and overlooked for ANYTHING because they did not comply. Some of those people were obviously "leaders" lovers of God, kind, wonderful to people and I think God told them in their hearts who and WHAT they were (as I have spoken to some corps about all of this and know some feel they were ordained by God but unrecognized by men).
Now, those people walk around without titles. Why should the defrocked continue to use theirs?
There was this 13 corps guy who was so obviously "gifted" one would be blind to miss it. And because he did not involve himself with the "crap" he was tossed out of the corps while some real willing and eager "participants" were ordained and became down right MEAN people. Later they left and kept the titles....
Just seems WRONG!!
It would be like my wearing my corps name tag every where I went... That was tossed long ago.
It does seem like some of the biggest jerks get to REMAIN "Rev's" for the rest of their lives while some of the greatest lovers of God and his people just leave....
(To the GOOD ones like The EVAN and Socks, I am not referring to you. You seem to be VERY loving. I am mostly referring to all the mini-Craigs and the "yes"men and the likes of them)
Unless they have another ordination yes they should stop. Really though that might be a clue if they still need to be addressed in that manner as to their spirituality. I have to say most of the exway clergy that I know don't feel that need in fact I can't think of any that use a Rev title except when they have to for legal reasons.
PS The whole "gift ministry" teaching of TWI was, sheesh, like just about everything else they taught, errant. Just my humble opinion, but TWI was like a very large dysfunctional family, with bible verses thrown in to validate their dysfunction.
And not only that, I don't think they had a clue about "ministries" and "functions" in the one body and how they work. Especially when it comes to accountability.
That doesn't mean that there were not people who had genuine gifts and abilities, who used them to serve others. It just means that TWI painted a pretty twisted picture of service for the Lord Jesus Christ. Please forgive my preachiness. I'll get off my soapbox now. :D-->
"PS The whole "gift ministry" teaching of TWI was, sheesh, like just about everything else they taught, errant. Just my humble opinion, but TWI was like a very large dysfunctional family, with bible verses thrown in to validate their dysfunction."
quote:I do have a question about your statement. I wonder if you can speak for "the offshoots",just because they came from the background of a clergy laity system does not mean that they still follow that way of thinking.
WD, I am not speaking for the offshots in general, only those who may divide themselves and establish a hierarchy of clergy at the top and laity at below that. If they don't do this then fine. The three main offshoots that I am aware of seem to do this. However, since there are so many little offshoots from TWI, am sure there are those that don't do this. My purpose though was not to throw rocks at "all" offshoots, but rather offer my prospective a (biblical one I hope) concerning ordination as it is commonly practiced throughout most of organized Christianity. The system as it is commonly used lends itself to abuse. So what I will say then concerning "all" TWI offshoots is, if the shoe fits ...
quote: Are you saying that no people in offshoots are functioning or assuming offices of leadership or service that none are appointed to pastor or teach. Thats a pretty broad statement which would imply that you have personally researched each offshoot.
Whitedove, if I had wanted to say that, I would have - I didn't and I am not saying that at all. My paper was not directed at offshoots in particular but of all Christianity that supports an non-biblical clergy-laity division. There are no hidden implications in the paper. Those who know me well, understand that I seldom if ever use absolutes like "all" or "no". So the broad statement you think I may have made, I didn't.
I am not here to condemn "all" offshoots. However, I think any Christian that attends a church of any kind including the TWI offshoots would do well to consider the paper I wrote, or even to do their own objective study concerning ordination and the clergy - laity division.
Goey Thanks for the reply my concern was not in your paper which as I said was very well put together only on the quote. It appeared to me from the sentence that is what you said that's why I asked.
Originally posted by Goey:
Ordination as it is practiced today in TWI, the offshoots and in Christianity in general is non-biblical.
the way
the offshoots- seamed all inclusive as you did not say some or a few another words if I said the oranges taste terrible it appears all the oranges taste that way however if I say some or the ones I know of it reads differently. then when you got to Christianity you qualified it by the "in general" meaning most but not all. The fact that you seperated the last from the other two appeared to indicate all to me.
Anyway that was the question and i appreciate the reply. Now I know.
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ex10
Oh geeeze. White dove, I kindly beg to differ with your assessment of "ordination requirements" of churches. Most mainline denominations require some kind of academic degree for ordination. Not to mention, a proven track record of service, as well as "christian character." There are established, traditional "minimum requirements" for ordination. It's a weeding out process.
TWI would have done well if they had such requirements. I find it difficult to believe that serial adulterers, and emotional/sexual abusers get as far in the established systems, as they did in TWI. Yeah, of course it happens, but not on the scale that we have seen in TWI.
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Dot Matrix
So, while we were in TWI could we have asked the state to defrock LCM? I understand those that left -- TWI did go to the state and defrock, but what if we went and showed MEN STILL IN to be sexual predators etc. Can we petition the state to defrock? Or is that against religious freedom.
EX10
I know here in Georgia we had a GIFTED male nurse who was ordained by our minister. And he is the GREATEST at teaching! Anyway he does not have a degree in theology.
Also one of the many churches we tried had a minister who "got the call" on his life and never attended any college.
So, I don't know. If you "get the call" do you just go tell someone you "got the call" and they ordain you?
It all seems so arbitrary - not the way God probably wanted it to be. But how would a state monitor it? I heard of a woman who started a sex church... Like the first church of the goodess Diana or something. I am unsure if she got recognized by the state but I think she was busted for prostitution and tried to claim it was a ministry.
(Would be weird if she was corps or something)
So, now what if an ordained person here decided to ordain RAF, Zix, Word Wolf or GOEY could it be done?
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WhiteDove
Ex-10 the question was not about mainline churches I would agree with you there. It was about fellowships.
Quote Q. So, suppose I think Raf has a gift ministry and I think he should be ordained and I run a fellowship.... Can I ordain him to the end he can get privellages from the "state"? Or can only an ordained person ordain another person?
If you have done the paperwork to establish yourself as a legal church then you can ordain people. I did not say that I agreed with that or it was my assessment just a legal fact. Anotherwords could but not necessaraly should.
Re The Way
I said Quote:
Ordination from a church decision is up to the elders,directors,trustee's or other governing body. It as you know does not always have anything to do with God. Money,political reasons,and pressure often were or are factors. The Way was no different and you are wise to question and consider these in regard to ministers.
looks like we are in agreement there to me.
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ex10
Dot
Different denominations and churches have the autonomy to decide their qualifications for ordinations. Which is how it should be, IMO. It's the old seperation of church and state thing written into our constitution. Thank goodness.
The licensing by the state is a whole different category. Some duties performed traditionally by clergymen are also regulated by the state, to protect the public. For example, in most states if you're going to be marrying people, performing couseling services, practicing medicine, etc. there is an overlap with the state, which regulates those kinds of services.
But plenty of "ministerial duties" are not state licensed. If your nurse friend is a great bible teacher, and everybody in his church thinks so, and the minister wants to "ordain" him to teach in the church, well fine. But if he wanted to teach biology in a public school, he'd have to be licensed. And he probably has a license to practice nursing. The licensing procedure is basically to protect the public, and make sure that the people practicing are qualified to do what they are doing, and be let loose on unsuspecting pedestrians.
Churches are still pretty free to do what they want within their own boundaries. The official ordination licensing thing will get you a free parking space that says "reserved for clergy," and entree into a prison or hospital. And you can marry people. I'm sure there are more privileges that what I've mentioned. If you want your "ministry" to extend beyond the boundaries of your own particular church, then licensing by the state is required.
Otherwise, do your own thing, within your own boundaries.
;)-->
Gotcha, dove.
:)-->
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Dot Matrix
I get cha
But now that being said, how do the guys/gals who have been defrocked by the Way continue to call themselves "Rev."?
I know a man and wife (both ordained by TWI) who taught a fellowship and continued to be Rev's..
If they were defrocked shouldn't they stop that?
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ex10
YES. My point perxactly.
:)-->
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Dot Matrix
ex
You said
"I've always thought it was somewhat dishonest of those who were fired/and or left TWI to continue to use their "Rev." title. TWI did "defrock" them. So what's up with continuing to refer to yourself, and let others do so, as Rev?
In just about any other denomination that I know of, if you quit or are fired, you also leave the title behind. "
I agree
Now, I know what DM said
"JAL is certainly not "clergy" to twi anymore, but did they choose him? I think the heart of a man or woman determines the "clergyness" of an individual, and not the "nod" from the elders in an institution. "
But in all honesty, if he was ordained by QUESTIONABLE men then was he ordained or given a "title" by a cult?
Truly, I am not saying what has happened between he and God is not real. Tht is NOT the issue.
I KNOW wonderful people who fought against the ills of TWI who were treated badly and overlooked for ANYTHING because they did not comply. Some of those people were obviously "leaders" lovers of God, kind, wonderful to people and I think God told them in their hearts who and WHAT they were (as I have spoken to some corps about all of this and know some feel they were ordained by God but unrecognized by men).
Now, those people walk around without titles. Why should the defrocked continue to use theirs?
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Dot Matrix
Ex
We posted at the same time!
YES I totally agree with you.
There was this 13 corps guy who was so obviously "gifted" one would be blind to miss it. And because he did not involve himself with the "crap" he was tossed out of the corps while some real willing and eager "participants" were ordained and became down right MEAN people. Later they left and kept the titles....
Just seems WRONG!!
It would be like my wearing my corps name tag every where I went... That was tossed long ago.
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ex10
Classic, Dot, that should go down in the GS hall of fame for one-liners.
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Dot Matrix
It does seem like some of the biggest jerks get to REMAIN "Rev's" for the rest of their lives while some of the greatest lovers of God and his people just leave....
(To the GOOD ones like The EVAN and Socks, I am not referring to you. You seem to be VERY loving. I am mostly referring to all the mini-Craigs and the "yes"men and the likes of them)
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WhiteDove
Dot
Unless they have another ordination yes they should stop. Really though that might be a clue if they still need to be addressed in that manner as to their spirituality. I have to say most of the exway clergy that I know don't feel that need in fact I can't think of any that use a Rev title except when they have to for legal reasons.
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ex10
PS The whole "gift ministry" teaching of TWI was, sheesh, like just about everything else they taught, errant. Just my humble opinion, but TWI was like a very large dysfunctional family, with bible verses thrown in to validate their dysfunction.
And not only that, I don't think they had a clue about "ministries" and "functions" in the one body and how they work. Especially when it comes to accountability.
That doesn't mean that there were not people who had genuine gifts and abilities, who used them to serve others. It just means that TWI painted a pretty twisted picture of service for the Lord Jesus Christ. Please forgive my preachiness. I'll get off my soapbox now.
:D-->
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A la prochaine
EX-10,
You know, I agree with what you have to say about 'gift ministries' and how TWI taught they were to function it the one body.
The only 3 people who were ordained in TWI that I felt were wonderful, genuine people post here on GS. Now, isn't that a coincidence!!!
;)-->
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Dot Matrix
Ex (and ala) I agree
I love this!
"PS The whole "gift ministry" teaching of TWI was, sheesh, like just about everything else they taught, errant. Just my humble opinion, but TWI was like a very large dysfunctional family, with bible verses thrown in to validate their dysfunction."
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Goey
WhiteDove,
WD, I am not speaking for the offshots in general, only those who may divide themselves and establish a hierarchy of clergy at the top and laity at below that. If they don't do this then fine. The three main offshoots that I am aware of seem to do this. However, since there are so many little offshoots from TWI, am sure there are those that don't do this. My purpose though was not to throw rocks at "all" offshoots, but rather offer my prospective a (biblical one I hope) concerning ordination as it is commonly practiced throughout most of organized Christianity. The system as it is commonly used lends itself to abuse. So what I will say then concerning "all" TWI offshoots is, if the shoe fits ...Whitedove, if I had wanted to say that, I would have - I didn't and I am not saying that at all. My paper was not directed at offshoots in particular but of all Christianity that supports an non-biblical clergy-laity division. There are no hidden implications in the paper. Those who know me well, understand that I seldom if ever use absolutes like "all" or "no". So the broad statement you think I may have made, I didn't.
I am not here to condemn "all" offshoots. However, I think any Christian that attends a church of any kind including the TWI offshoots would do well to consider the paper I wrote, or even to do their own objective study concerning ordination and the clergy - laity division.
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WhiteDove
Goey Thanks for the reply my concern was not in your paper which as I said was very well put together only on the quote. It appeared to me from the sentence that is what you said that's why I asked.
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Dot Matrix
well, TWI de frock you!
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WaywardWayfer
There are a few in TWI who were ordained, but now are dropped from WC and considered "non-functioning" ministers.
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Dot Matrix
That is honest...
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ex10
well yeah, i agree with Dot. The ordination doesn't really mean anything to anybody outside of TWI.
-->
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