Dot -- why did she wait so long to see this guy "get his due"? I'm not sticking up for ole "CI", but I'm thinking she could have said something sooner.
quote: the church court found that Jones had "not demonstrated an understanding of or a genuine repentance for the offences committed" and had demonstrated what it called a "continuing pattern of abusive and exploitative behavior and a risk of future exploitation."
Does this mean there are more "skeletons" in his closet??
quote: Those changes made it easier to bring charges of sexual misconduct against a bishop. The changes also opened a "window of opportunity," removing all statute-of-limitation barriers so long as aggrieved parties filed their complaints by July 1, 1998.
Plus -- this has been going on since 1999, in their court. If he is that guilty, why is it taking them so long?
Again -- NOT sticking up for CI, but just asking. :)-->
Looked for this letter in the Waydale reading did not see one though. Maybe we can get it in there.
November 1989
Way Corps Letter- Craig Martindale
paragraph 4
There's something else I thought you would like to know. We have informed the state of Ohio of all the clergymen ordained by the Way International who no longer stand with the ministry. This is our responsibility. According to state laws,if a individual no longer fellowships with the congregation that ordained him or her,then he or she is no longer qualified to perform the duties of ordained clergy. I agree with that logic. It fits very well with God's Word. Certainly,ordination is ordination,and spiritually that can not be taken away,but a functioning clergyman or a nonfunctioning clergyman is a different story. These men and woman who were ordained in our ministry and now work against us,or at least have apathetically withdrawn to do nothing,do not carry the rights and privileges of ordained clergy anymore....
governmentally or spiritually. Unless there would be a change of heart to stand on the Word with us in The Way International(the ministry that ordained them),these people at least have to be classified as "inactive clergy". The believers have no responsibility to recognize or accept the functioning of these individuals either. This is certainly not a call to intend harm or hurt on people,but simply to line things up straight the way they should be.The Government doesn't recognize them in clergy functions,and neither do we in the Way Ministry recognize them in their so-called "Biblical actions" which are so unbiblical.
(Then he goes on another page about the salt covenant and talks about J*hn H*ndr*cks.
David yeah right thats why he makes sure that he names people by name just so we don't get confused don't ya know not to cause any hurt. What a nice guy always looking out for us......
What I'd like to know is how do you defrock one who wasn't frocked in the first place.
And also I listen to Jo*n Hen*dric*s tapes all the time and he is great. A very nice person. and not a $ grubber. He doesn't ask for $ from people he just beleives God for what he needs and he usually gets it sometimes often from his own self.
"clergy" is defined as ---"ordained for religious service". Next question would be -- who decides the ordination? God, or man? And then you have to ask if man (ie - a denomination), decides that God has chosen this person to be ordained, who are they to take away what has been "bestowed upon"? If they are "de-frocking", it is simply a statement that (whomever) chooses not to "stand" with us, and is no longer "clergy"
Granted, it happened in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament leaders were called into question for actions done, but given today's "razzle-dazzle" proliferation of churches, I have to wonder how their priorities are set. You agree? Fine. You are "clergy", since you do so well with ..............(insert "program" here)
You have problems with our policies? Fine. Give us back the robe. You mean nothing. Spiritually, or governmentally.
JAL is certainly not "clergy" to twi anymore, but did they choose him? I think the heart of a man or woman determines the "clergyness" of an individual, and not the "nod" from the elders in an institution.
And if that "nod of affirmation" isn't the deciding factor for the beginning, neither should the lack thereof, be important in the end. :)-->
Woops -- I might have just relegated this to the Doctrinal Forum. :(--> :P-->
Generally the consensus is that ordination is a public recognition of a God directed event. Similar to a wedding which is a public recognition of a decision made by two people.
In Episcopalian and Catholic churches defrocking removes the right to exercise priestly functions. Their sacramental theology believes that Ordination is a sacrament which confers a permanent character upon the person ordained and that this cannot be removed.
If such a defrocked priest continues to exercise priestly functions such as the eucharist the sacrament itself is valid but the action is completely illicit.
As TWI doesn't view ordination as a sacrament I guess that they cease to view the ordained person as clergy when they leave TWI or are kicked out of it.
I've always thought it was somewhat dishonest of those who were fired/and or left TWI to continue to use their "Rev." title. TWI did "defrock" them. So what's up with continuing to refer to yourself, and let others do so, as Rev? -->
In just about any other denomination that I know of, if you quit or are fired, you also leave the title behind.
Ok, if you then join another church, and are working for them, and they choose to ordain you, fine.
I do have a question about your statement. I wonder if you can speak for "the offshoots",just because they came from the background of a clergy laity system does not mean that they still follow that way of thinking. Are you saying that no people in offshoots are functioning or assuming offices of leadership or service that none are appointed to pastor or teach. Thats a pretty broad statement which would imply that you have personally researched each offshoot.
The operation of a gift ministry is something between that person and their Heavenly Father. Biblically the public display and ceremony which seperates clergy and laity is phooey. Either someone is functioning as if they are clergy or they are not. We are to look among ourselves, see and recognize those who labor among us, working their ministrys.
In our culture any 'church' (group of 3 or more) can recognize someone and 'ordain' them as clergy.
If TWI 'ordained' someone then fine, if TWI defrocked someone then fine.
That does not in any way hinder a previously TWI ordained clergy from seeking ordaination from another 'church'. It is merely a piece of paper required by some citys or states, to be able to perform weddings and services.
I have one. Does it make me any more or any less worthy in the eyes of G-d? I dont think so.
If six different home-churches each decided that they wanted to issue you a certificate of ordination, would it make your operation of your ministry any more so?
If these men wish to continue to function as we were ALL taught to do, to focus their lives on worshipping G-d, blessing the beleivers, and performing weddings / funerals / prison visitations; I would have to applaud them.
quote: The operation of a gift ministry is between that person and their Heavenly Father
Not to be picky, but you might want to reconsider that point.
Jesus Christ is head of the church and responsible for the appointing of so called "gift ministries." But I guess if you are of the trinitarian persuasion, it's of no consequence.
I know this isn't the doctrinal forum, but I'm in a mood. :P-->
Okay, so if I decide to have a church and I decide to ordain someone with the rights and Privileges -- you know to be able to go into a hospital, perform a wedding -- be recognized by the state (I am not speaking of God acknowledging)how would one do that?
There are off shoots and home fellowships where these people still call themselves "Rev."
(Now, surely we can say that God ordains.... But that opens another arguement.... If TWI was a cult a nutty, goofey, cult promoting its weird sexual beliefs then I QUESTION if God was behind (some) the ordination to begin with....)
So, my question right now is -- so if these men are still practicing as MINISTERS... And TWI defrocked them, who reordains them? Themselves? So, they have to go and register again as a REV. Now, WD saud in Kansas ut us for life... So those ordained in Kansas do not have to worry about anything....
So, suppose I think Raf has a gift ministry and I think he should be ordained and I run a fellowship.... Can I ordain him to the end he can get privellages from the "state"? Or can only an ordained person ordain another person?
DM I have no idea why she waited so long. But I thought about all the girls who are now women and have struggled to regain their footing. Can they go to the STATE of Ohio and present their cases and ask for a defrocking? Or does TWI have to do it?
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WhiteDove
Dot Any Clergy that no longer fellowshiped with the way were sent in to the state of Ohio. as no longer considered clergy.
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Dot Matrix
So, John Lynn is no longer clergy?
Does he have to be reordained?
Did they ever just take someone and defrock them and they are still in?
I think all the sex abusers should be defrocked -- but they embrace the policy
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WhiteDove
Even old craig got the boot
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/laws...ader-092100.htm
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WhiteDove
Most of the offshoot groups just recognized the ordination and reordained them in each group.
I don't know of anyone ever still being in my guess if you were bad enough to be defrocked you were not way material and were M & A
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dmiller
Dot -- why did she wait so long to see this guy "get his due"? I'm not sticking up for ole "CI", but I'm thinking she could have said something sooner.
Does this mean there are more "skeletons" in his closet??
I'm just asking
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Refiner
It sure do. Its amazing what slips out "between the lines" isnt it.
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dmiller
Just clicked on your link.....
Plus -- this has been going on since 1999, in their court. If he is that guilty, why is it taking them so long?
Again -- NOT sticking up for CI, but just asking.
:)-->
Any ideas?
-->
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dmiller
Refiner -- did you get my apology in the about vpw's writings? You never posted after I sent it.
:)-->
Dot -- sorry for the derail!
-->
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WhiteDove
Looked for this letter in the Waydale reading did not see one though. Maybe we can get it in there.
November 1989
Way Corps Letter- Craig Martindale
paragraph 4
There's something else I thought you would like to know. We have informed the state of Ohio of all the clergymen ordained by the Way International who no longer stand with the ministry. This is our responsibility. According to state laws,if a individual no longer fellowships with the congregation that ordained him or her,then he or she is no longer qualified to perform the duties of ordained clergy. I agree with that logic. It fits very well with God's Word. Certainly,ordination is ordination,and spiritually that can not be taken away,but a functioning clergyman or a nonfunctioning clergyman is a different story. These men and woman who were ordained in our ministry and now work against us,or at least have apathetically withdrawn to do nothing,do not carry the rights and privileges of ordained clergy anymore....
governmentally or spiritually. Unless there would be a change of heart to stand on the Word with us in The Way International(the ministry that ordained them),these people at least have to be classified as "inactive clergy". The believers have no responsibility to recognize or accept the functioning of these individuals either. This is certainly not a call to intend harm or hurt on people,but simply to line things up straight the way they should be.The Government doesn't recognize them in clergy functions,and neither do we in the Way Ministry recognize them in their so-called "Biblical actions" which are so unbiblical.
(Then he goes on another page about the salt covenant and talks about J*hn H*ndr*cks.
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dmiller
Right.
-->
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WhiteDove
Dot I suppose that this varies state to state in Kansas once you go before the judge and are given your state credentials they are good for life.
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WhiteDove
David yeah right thats why he makes sure that he names people by name just so we don't get confused don't ya know not to cause any hurt. What a nice guy always looking out for us......
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wyteduv58
What I'd like to know is how do you defrock one who wasn't frocked in the first place.
And also I listen to Jo*n Hen*dric*s tapes all the time and he is great. A very nice person. and not a $ grubber. He doesn't ask for $ from people he just beleives God for what he needs and he usually gets it sometimes often from his own self.
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dmiller
"clergy" is defined as ---"ordained for religious service". Next question would be -- who decides the ordination? God, or man? And then you have to ask if man (ie - a denomination), decides that God has chosen this person to be ordained, who are they to take away what has been "bestowed upon"? If they are "de-frocking", it is simply a statement that (whomever) chooses not to "stand" with us, and is no longer "clergy"
Granted, it happened in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament leaders were called into question for actions done, but given today's "razzle-dazzle" proliferation of churches, I have to wonder how their priorities are set. You agree? Fine. You are "clergy", since you do so well with ..............(insert "program" here)
You have problems with our policies? Fine. Give us back the robe. You mean nothing. Spiritually, or governmentally.
JAL is certainly not "clergy" to twi anymore, but did they choose him? I think the heart of a man or woman determines the "clergyness" of an individual, and not the "nod" from the elders in an institution.
And if that "nod of affirmation" isn't the deciding factor for the beginning, neither should the lack thereof, be important in the end.
:)-->
Woops -- I might have just relegated this to the Doctrinal Forum.
:(--> 
:P-->
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WhiteDove
Generally the consensus is that ordination is a public recognition of a God directed event. Similar to a wedding which is a public recognition of a decision made by two people.
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dmiller
Yep ... what I said.
Agreed.
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Trefor Heywood
In Episcopalian and Catholic churches defrocking removes the right to exercise priestly functions. Their sacramental theology believes that Ordination is a sacrament which confers a permanent character upon the person ordained and that this cannot be removed.
If such a defrocked priest continues to exercise priestly functions such as the eucharist the sacrament itself is valid but the action is completely illicit.
As TWI doesn't view ordination as a sacrament I guess that they cease to view the ordained person as clergy when they leave TWI or are kicked out of it.
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Goey
Ordination as it is practiced today in TWI, the offshoots and in Christianity in general is non-biblical.
The church was never supposed to be divided in to a ruling class "clergy" and an obedient following class of "laity".
Here is an article I wrote several years ago on this.
Traditional Ordination
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ex10
I've always thought it was somewhat dishonest of those who were fired/and or left TWI to continue to use their "Rev." title. TWI did "defrock" them. So what's up with continuing to refer to yourself, and let others do so, as Rev?
-->
In just about any other denomination that I know of, if you quit or are fired, you also leave the title behind.
Ok, if you then join another church, and are working for them, and they choose to ordain you, fine.
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WhiteDove
Goey
Very well written paper.
I do have a question about your statement. I wonder if you can speak for "the offshoots",just because they came from the background of a clergy laity system does not mean that they still follow that way of thinking. Are you saying that no people in offshoots are functioning or assuming offices of leadership or service that none are appointed to pastor or teach. Thats a pretty broad statement which would imply that you have personally researched each offshoot.
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Galen
The operation of a gift ministry is something between that person and their Heavenly Father. Biblically the public display and ceremony which seperates clergy and laity is phooey. Either someone is functioning as if they are clergy or they are not. We are to look among ourselves, see and recognize those who labor among us, working their ministrys.
In our culture any 'church' (group of 3 or more) can recognize someone and 'ordain' them as clergy.
If TWI 'ordained' someone then fine, if TWI defrocked someone then fine.
That does not in any way hinder a previously TWI ordained clergy from seeking ordaination from another 'church'. It is merely a piece of paper required by some citys or states, to be able to perform weddings and services.
I have one. Does it make me any more or any less worthy in the eyes of G-d? I dont think so.
If six different home-churches each decided that they wanted to issue you a certificate of ordination, would it make your operation of your ministry any more so?
If these men wish to continue to function as we were ALL taught to do, to focus their lives on worshipping G-d, blessing the beleivers, and performing weddings / funerals / prison visitations; I would have to applaud them.
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ex10
Not to be picky, but you might want to reconsider that point.
Jesus Christ is head of the church and responsible for the appointing of so called "gift ministries." But I guess if you are of the trinitarian persuasion, it's of no consequence.
I know this isn't the doctrinal forum, but I'm in a mood.
:P-->
PS see Ephesians
:)-->
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Dot Matrix
Okay, so if I decide to have a church and I decide to ordain someone with the rights and Privileges -- you know to be able to go into a hospital, perform a wedding -- be recognized by the state (I am not speaking of God acknowledging)how would one do that?
There are off shoots and home fellowships where these people still call themselves "Rev."
(Now, surely we can say that God ordains.... But that opens another arguement.... If TWI was a cult a nutty, goofey, cult promoting its weird sexual beliefs then I QUESTION if God was behind (some) the ordination to begin with....)
So, my question right now is -- so if these men are still practicing as MINISTERS... And TWI defrocked them, who reordains them? Themselves? So, they have to go and register again as a REV. Now, WD saud in Kansas ut us for life... So those ordained in Kansas do not have to worry about anything....
So, suppose I think Raf has a gift ministry and I think he should be ordained and I run a fellowship.... Can I ordain him to the end he can get privellages from the "state"? Or can only an ordained person ordain another person?
DM I have no idea why she waited so long. But I thought about all the girls who are now women and have struggled to regain their footing. Can they go to the STATE of Ohio and present their cases and ask for a defrocking? Or does TWI have to do it?
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Dot Matrix
GOEY
Just read your paper. Good one!
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