twi marriage vs biblical marriage

[smurfette]

For healing's sake, I was wondering how the rest of you would define the above terms. I have some decisions to make and need a clearer picture than I have right now due to previous years experience.

My contribution would be that twi submitting is wife be quiet and do as told.

Edited August 19, 2005 by smurfette

[Zshot]

Maybe this is just me...

I thought marriage is supposed to be a partnership between 2 people who respect and love each other. A marriage should never be a dictatorship.

Of course...

What do I know, I'm single.

[rascal]

Tough one smurfette...check in the *open* forums ...a few months back there was a thread there about nbw (never been way) verses way concerning potential spouses, dating etc..lot of good info.

I am still married to my twi spouse...it is a tough road...both of us have many years of pre conditioning, not to mention just down right wrong teachings concerning our partnership.

I know so many ex way women who continue with distorted views of their role and function in a marriage...even years after leaving....it is very sad.

We think it`s pretty funny now....my husband occasionally bemoans his lost *God hood* status enjoyed while we were involved...he will jokingly bellow out *submit dammit* commands...and pretends to cringe in fear and be intimidated whenever I get on a tear...once in a while he even threatens to start rebuking devil spirits lol....point is...we recognise twi behavior and are able to laugh now.

Biggest thing I would reccomend...even above similar belief systems........(shoot husband and I are at comeplete oposit ends of the spectrum concerning those)...they really have very little to do with what constitutes a good relationship with us)..... is someone who will treat you with dignity and respect....rather than the 2nd class citizen status that most men in twi were taught to employ.

[oldiesman]

I don't relate to thinking or being taught that women were 2nd class there. Being single in twi, I had much admiration and respect for all women, both married and single. Lots of single women were my coordinators, and very respected.

As I recall, married women were expected to submit to their husbands. Is that biblical? Yes, it is. So I understand the connection if one's a bible believing christian who wants to do what the book says. And that was supposed to be what twi was all about, the word, the word, and nothing but the word. right?

[rascal]

Here we go again eh oldies?....you never saw it so it didn`t happen ....

For heavens sake ..the ONLY position in twi that a woman was *qualified* for was horizontal....our ideas...intuitions and areas of expertise were ignored....shoot the only ones lower in the social pecking order were the poor children....

It`s rather amusing for you to attempt to speak with authority on the subject ....seeing as you were never married...nor I think ever a woman in twi oldies...

I take it that you were not at the womens *advances* where we were taught how to properly *serve* the men....Probably You were never at the pre marriage counceling sessions where the women were told that *sex* and anything else was required when where and how the spouse wanted...even if you were furious with them...spiritually you were required to submit.

Likewise apparently you were not witness to some leaderscreaming at his wife to submit...I was.

Probably never had to be *counceled* that ANYTHING the husband did was ok...drunkeness, beatings...all were acceptable...we simply were inept at figuring out a way to soothe them and do our jobs properly...and there wouldn`t be a problem.

You were never put through the indignity of being forced to *obey* like some recalcitrant child because the *man* was in charge...nor passed over for leadership positions because as long as *men* were available...God din`t need the women...

Our sole responsibility was to serve the *man* be they spouse or otherwise so that they could *best teach the word*...PERIOD...sounds pretty second class to me....oops but there I go again getting upity....thinking above my station of *woman* ...maybe Mark hasn`t been brow beating or berating me enough lately...

Not in all marriages...no...many men had more integrety than to behave in the manner that twi recommended....many men rose above what they were taught...

I am saying that in OUR marriage begun in twi...even in SPITE of our best efforts ...it has taken YEARS to eliminate the taint of twi teaching that was preventing our marriage from what God intended.

Smurf...I`d make *respect* at the top of my list of qualifications in a new relationship....

[excathedra]

http://mentalhelp.net/psyhelp/chap10/chap10h.htm

http://www.recovery-man.com/abusive/healthy_abusive.htm

[ex10]

The point of "submission" of women to their husbands in the bible, doesn't have anything to do with rank, position, or authority. It simply means to honor each other in the marriage relationship and respond to one another's needs. Look it up if you don't believe me. Also, women are to honor ("submit") to "their own husbands." Not to every man who comes along thinking he's an important somebody.

There are many different references to "submission" mentioned in the bible concerning our relationships with one another. TWI had it all screwed up, as usual. -->

Zshot, yeah, what you said. :D-->

PS and another thing, "ministries" or "gifts" or "functions" in the body of Christ are NOT gender specific. So that does NOT mean that women are regulated to babysitting and baking cookies in the church, regardless of what some fundamentalists, TWI included, teach. :D-->

Thank goodness I'm a Methodist now.

[rascal]

I agree ex... seeing as *submit* is a hot button with me...my dear spouse avoids ANY reference ...lol

See the thing is there are times and places where the submit is garbage...

All of the submitting, placating, and prayers in the WORLD wont help your marriage when dealing with an alcoholic or abusive spouse....they need a 2 by 4 upside the head (figurativly speakin)

It wasn`t untill I/we dumped all twi teachings regarding marriage that the journey towards healing could begin...its when I could fianlly develope the guts to stand up do what needed to be done..

[Bob]

ex10, I don't doubt your definition, but I'm having trouble looking it up. Perhaps you could clarify or point to a source.

The strongs definition I found was a military term, to be under rank to another.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/cho...88691-4235.html

Personally, I don't care if the military definition is right and that is what Ephesians is saying. Paul's attitutde toward women (and marriage) was deplorable and I don't care for it.

[oldiesman]

quote:

---

Here we go again eh oldies?....you never saw it so it didn`t happen ....

---

Rascal, I know you know how to read, so please reread my statement. I was speaking of myself, what I experienced.

You, on the other hand, said:

quote:

---

....rather than the 2nd class citizen status that most men in twi were taught to employ.

---

I don't know, but do you consider yourself expert enough to speak for MOST men in twi, how they were supposed to be taught and employ methods that women were 2nd class?

Let's make a deal.

You speak for yourself, and I speak for myself. But when you get into making blanket statements about what most men supposedly believed and employed, you get into making statements that don't necessarily apply to most or everybodies experiences or practices. And I know you don't want to do that, because you've corrected me dozens of times for doing that same thing.

:)-->

[Galen]

Smurfette-

“. . . since I am used to the verbal abuse, guilt, slave mentality and submitting that twi teaches.”

The only abuse that I saw was from corpse-leadership.

Not everyone went along with it. I certainly don’t mean to imply that it did not happen, it certainly did happen. Though I don’t recall ever feeling that there was any ‘slave mentality’ going on.

Zshot-

“I thought marriage is supposed to be a partnership between 2 people who respect and love each other. A marriage should never be a dictatorship.”

Dictatorships are wrong. Is that really what you say being taught?

Rascal-

“I am still married to my twi spouse...it is a tough road...both of us have many years of pre conditioning, not to mention just down right wrong teachings concerning our partnership.”

I am glad it is still working for you guys. I am also still married to my wonderful loving Bonnie, 23 years now.

“I know so many ex way women who continue with distorted views of their role and function in a marriage...even years after leaving....it is very sad.”

I am still the head of my household, I even have my wife’s permission to say so.

”We think it`s pretty funny now....my husband occasionally bemoans his lost *God hood* status enjoyed while we were involved...”

He really saw / understood the doctrines as being that he had a ‘god-hood’ status over you?

Wow.

“. . . someone who will treat you with dignity and respect....rather than the 2nd class citizen status that most men in twi were taught to employ.”

I entirely agree that dignity and respect are needed, but aren’t we “equals in the sight of g-d”? (Forgive me for quoting TWI here.)

Oldy-

“I had much admiration and respect for all women, both married and single. Lots of single women were my coordinators, and very respected.”

I have always admired and respected the ladys. I think more so, as I grew in TWI. While I was never in a fellowship that was lead by a female, I did hear of them, and it was my understanding that they were common in many areas, just not area military bases so much, as we had huge populations of men and very few females.

“As I recall, married women were expected to submit to their husbands. Is that biblical? Yes, it is. So I understand the connection if one's a bible believing christian who wants to do what the book says. And that was supposed to be what twi was all about, the word, the word, and nothing but the word. right?”

That was my understanding, though apparently from what we have both read here on Greasespot and on the previous greasespot there were many who seemed to have taken it too far.

rascal-

“. . . You were not at the womens *advances* where we were taught how to properly *serve* the men.”

My Bonnie did coordinate a number of branch woman’s days and advances. I can’t imagine that the topics we list were among those she focused on.

“You were not at the counceling sessions where the women were told that *sex* was required when where and how the spouse wanted...even if you were furious with them...spiritually you were required to submit.”

Neither was I. Again not to say it did not happen, rather I would imagine that it did happen. I just can’t imagine ever taking any issue of my household to a corpse-leader for ‘counseling’.

“Maybe you were not witness to some leaderscreaming at his wife to submit...I was.”

Again I would have imagined that such public conduct would have immediately dis-tracted from the reputation and respect of that ‘leader’.

“You were not forced to *obey* like some recalcitrant child because the *man* was in charge...nor passed over for leadership positions because as long as *men* were available...”

I did see females passed-over for twig leadership, though again in areas where there was one female per ten men. On occasion when I went to sea, my wife (Bonnie) did take over running the fellowship in my absence. (not to say that I occasionally went to sea, but rather that she did not always take over the fellowship).

“The ONLY position a woman in twi was qualified for was *horizontal* “

I would strongly dis-0agree with this statement, though obviously I did not see or hear what you say and heard. If you were told this, then I apologize.

“Our sole responsibility was to serve the *man* be they spouse or otherwise so that they could *best teach the word*...PERIOD”

I would have thought that we all had and still have many responsibilities, primarily being to our Lord and Master Christ Jesus. And to those in our households.

”Our thoughts...intuitions and areas of expertise were ignored...”

That would have been an error. Anyone of spiritual birth and maturity who is receiving ‘insight’ or who simply has experience in an issue should be respected and their counsel sought after. I certainly have always sought Bonnie’s wisdom and insight on any issue that I face. I did while we were active in TWI, and I still do today.

“Not in all marriages...no...many men had more integrety than to behave in the manner that twi recommended....many men rose above what they were taught...”

Then again many of us, knocked heads with corpse-leadership every time we sat in their presence.

[rascal]

*God hood* status is a joke Galen, Mark never knew what I had been taught...and never knew that I didn`t feel I had any right to speak up...matter of fact he was down right ....ed that I had not told him years earlier that I didn`t believe that I was *allowed* to speak up or contradict him....he just assumed that that it was because I was smart and always agreed with him rofl

Galen...maybe it was because I was *corpes spouse* that things were different .

I was under constant scrutiny to be sure to sure that I measured up..to ensure that I was *worthey* ..of membership in the corpes house hold...it was a big hairy deal.... consequences were greater for any infractions against me AND my spouse for any percieved unwomanly behavior.

I knew great loving couples in twi...but generally those were the ones who were not under direct leadership scrutiny.

Everything was fine as long as I was always meek ...never questioned...always placated him...I was the model wife...lol

Granted you and Bonnie are the exception...I am simply relating the personal experiences and instructions of 15 years of twi in different states under different leaders....

There are ex twi women who put out a magazine in my state....every article was about...how to find your spiritual equal so that submitting isn`t a problem...how to please your man....what to do if your man is spiritually *inferior* and you still must submit....it`s box thinking at its worse...without a man to submit to...they were lost...

I have found that we have a whole set of responsibilities as wives...and having the guts to stand up and confront your spouse when they are being bu tt heads...or in defense of yourself and your children is at times necessary...it is also necessary to take a stand and be adamant when they are making a mistake that will adversely affect your entire family....none of those are allowed under the *submit to spouse always* rule.

Twi teaching in no way prepared me to be the wife that my husband needed....

[smurfette]

I will try to find that other thread. Thanks for some good info.

Edited August 19, 2005 by smurfette

[ex10]

Bob, it's true that the primary definition is militaristic in nature. Which is why it doesn't fit in the context of marriage. ;)-->

My Greek is really rusty, but from what I remember there are nuances in the definition of the word, according to tense, voice and context. John Lynn and John Schoeheit did great teaching on the whole subject when we first left TWI in the 80's to correct the whole misued doctrine. I'm sure the teachings are available on their website. J. Shoenheit's Greek is tons better than mine.

I do know that the submission, or rather consideration and respect, required in a marriage relationship is reciprical, and gender specific. (Duh, men can't bear children, etc., women don't go off to hunt and do battle with small children) But that's the boundary. It does not extend beyond that particular relationship.

God is neither male nor female, but exhibits both gender characteristics. The union of male and female in marriage is to show the complete character of God. Each gender completes the total picture of who God is.

When it comes to relationships outside of marriage, in the church for example, submission is still part of the deal. And obviously, it's not referring to rank, or any kind of militaristic authority over anybody. I understand it as being respect and loving subjection ala considering others before yourself. (What Jesus taught.)

Hope this helps?

[Galen]

Bob:

"The strongs definition I found was a military term, to be under rank to another."

"Personally, I don't care if the military definition is right and that is what Ephesians is saying. Paul's attitutde toward women (and marriage) was deplorable and I don't care for it."

I have had an issue with a part of this tpoic for many years. I have heard it taught and repeated many times in many arenas, an idea of what 'military-order' is all about. This is done largely by civilians and their vague idea of what it is like to be in the military.

I was a highly trained system expert, on any given boat that I served onboard, the systems that I worked on, nobody else know to the degree that I knew. If anyone had a question about the capability of that system or equipment, they were sent to me. Be it the Captain, or anyone else; "What is the current limitations of this equipment?", "How does that effect the functioning of this boat?". Whether it be the Captian or anyone else, I would be given the respect and dignity of being responsible for my systems. When I served as "Ship's Intelligence Officer", I was expected to KNOW great details of missions and force strengths and nation's capabilities. They would come to me asking for a breifing or with a detailed question. Because in the military we do respect each other.

Yes there is an aspect (which civilians seem to focus on exclusively) wherein "I said jump, and you need to jump". How ever in my limited military career (20+years) there was almost always the respect due me. "We need this anchor raised immediately, raise it" "Sir, the anchor windlass is broken and not capable to lifting it right now, we need to either cut the anchor lose, or rig wenches to haul the anchor up with manually".

The over-whelming majority of orders given within the military are in the form of: "Men, we need to accomplish X---X in the next two hours." "sir, I will get the truck, and Smith can get more guys to help us load it, and we will get it all there within two hours". "Very well, carry on".

I have ordered servicemembers into hazardous situations. I have always done it with respect and given them the option of suggesting a better way of doing things, in case my viewpoint was limited and they knew of a better method.

Non-professional officers and NCOs leading a bunch of draftees or part-timers might well ignore advice and do things to the exclusion of better ideas. Sorry but there are stupid people out there. Doing such will only come back to bite them later. Those grunts know their leaders are idiots, thus the phrase of "fragging the Lt" (dropping a grenade into the floor of the officer's jeep as it drives by), to help clean the gene pool.

If I need to accomplish something, and I focus on my ideas of how to do it, and completely ignore the advice and wisdom of experts; I am stupid.

This applies whether I am leading men in Kosovo, or whether I am purchasing land for a new home for my family (which I am doing). I do see wonderful principles for eladership within the military, but they are not the same ideas that most civilians have. And I am the 'leader' of my household, and I apply the same ideals in the family life as I did in the military.

Okay, fine, I said it. I am ready, flame away.

P.S. be gentle.

[Watered Garden]

Aw, Galen, I'd never hurt you...too much! ;)-->

[Galen]

rascal:

"Galen...maybe it was because I was *corpes spouse* that things were different"

I do apologize if in any way I was a part of what turned out to be so horrible for you and others in TWI.

We saw great love and kindness among beleivers and within fellowships in TWI, though never if that twig had Corpse in it. And as such we avoided corpse most of the time.

"...I am simply relating the personal experiences and instructions of 15 years of twi in different states under different leaders...."

I am sure, I never meant to imply that these things did not happen, I am sure they did, again I am sorry.

"There are ex twi women who put out a magazine in my state....every article was about...how to find your spiritual equal so that submitting isn`t a problem...how to please your man....what to do if your man is spiritually *inferior* and you still must submit....it`s box thinking at its worse...without a man to submit to...they were lost..."

Various times, Bonnie would call around and gather support from ladys in the area and she would put together women's days for doing word-studys, etc. I recall once I think it was in Virginia that she did this and later after she had been doing this one-day per month thing for a few months, the Limb called and wanted to know what it was about and who she was to be leading it. I think it was Tom and Barbra Lally who were the LCs. Bonnie just did what seemed to be needed.

"I have found that we have a whole set of responsibilities as wives...and having the guts to stand up and confront your spouse when they are being bu tt heads...or in defense of yourself and your children is at times necessary...it is also necessary to take a stand and be adamant when they are making a mistake that will adversely affect your entire family....none of those are allowed under the *submit to spouse always* rule."

True.

"Twi teaching in no way prepared me to be the wife that my husband needed...."

Perhaps more time should have been spent studying the Bible, rather than not.

[ex10]

Another point is that Jesus' example of his relationship and treatment of women is a big clue. Jesus NEVER treated women as second class citizens, and in fact, was criticized for just the opposite. Treating them as equals, so to speak. Everything written in the NT has to line up with Jesus' example.

At the risk of stating the obvious, TWI's teaching on the role of, and treatment of women doesn't.

[rascal]

Do you mean that if I had studied the bible more I would have had less problems? Cause if THATS what you mean....it would be inapropriate...

No amount of prayers...scipture study..believing trying to be good enough..trying to make everything right... was enough to address our problems...

Twi teaching failed because it taught that Husband was head...God only worked through him...husband must be obeyed because he was the head of the household...ie...we the wives had no recourse...we had to suffer with bad treatment.... wrong decisions...inapropriate behavior....we must submit to this...and THEN God would bless us...regardless of whether the husband was right or wrong...

Husband an alcoholic jerk? be a better wife...husband making foolish decisions....abide by em anyway cause God will bless you for your commitment....yadda yadda...Our whole role in the marriage our insights...our longsuits would be dismissed at a whim...as unimportant..thus fully discarding half of what was needed for a healthy marriage and happy family.

Galen...I met many many wonderfull peaple in twi as well....no critisism of them intended...Different flavors in different areas...always

Ex 10th tha was absolutely the most beautifull summery of what a marriage is supposed to be that I have ever read....

[Trefor Heywood]

I seem to recall VPW in CFAS say something like "a woman should be an angel in the kitchen and a whore in the bedroom."

Brilliant definition of a biblical marriage it was not!

[WhiteDove]

Quote:

All of the submitting, placating, and prayers in the WORLD wont help your marriage when dealing with an alcoholic or abusive spouse....they need a 2 by 4 upside the head (figurativly speakin)

Rascal Amen

I know that this is a serious subject but I got the funniest mind picture of you swinging a 2x4

and I'm thinking if it was me I'd be submitting no problem....

Oh and by the way is this some of your handywork :D-->

[rascal]

Lol, funny dove....no REALLY...I never really hit Mark with a two by four...it was a metafore...honest...rofl

Heres a *deal* for YOU oldies... stop attempting to negate what I was taught or experienced in twi...what I did or did not endure...and I`ll quit refuting you!

What I am guessing is.... that because you were never married, or female...you probaly didn`t recieve the benefit of the *in depth* teachings depicting what God/twi required of a *virtuous* woman.

Paint it as pretty as you please Oldies...I still know the indignities that the women and children (many men as well, if they didn`t toe the line) suffered by adherance to twi teachings...were unpleasant...unnecessary and not something God required.

[pjroberge]

My wife is not a TWI refugee, but she knows her place in our household. I am the boss of all she lets me do. I gotta go. Yes honey I will do the dinner dishes, iron the sheets and and ......

[Raf]

There was the story about a guy who went to a Promise Keepers rally where he heard two days of preachers extolling the importance of men standing up and reclaiming their positions as heads of their households. So the guy goes home and sees his wife and says, "Honey, I am the Man in this home! I am the head of this household! When push comes to shove, I am the one who makes the final decision. What I say, goes. You are my wife and you will submit to me. That is the command of God."

After that, he didn't see his wife for a week.

And when the week was up, he could see her a little bit out of one eye...

Edited June 25, 2004 by Raf

[WhiteDove]

Right Rascal Wink Wink :D-->