And here I thought the first sin of mankind was the wearing of too-tight loin cloths by the male dancers that were a tribal offshoot of Cain's family and first worn in their production of "Athletikos De Sol - Standing in the Crack".
Greek and Hebrew words can be an important key to understanding, especially if the translation can be shown to be inaccurate, or if more than one Greek word is translated by only one English word.
The Way, however, put way too much emphaisis on it.
Martindale's butchering of this verse is a good example of how TWI twisted this legitimate "key" to push it's unbiblical doctrines. Wierwille did it as well, although seldom as outrageously as this. He was a bit more subtle in his approach and seemed to have a better sense of what would freak people out than Martindale did.
Well there you go, Tref. :D--> Although based on my indepth research the unusually tight and form fitting loin cloths worn by the male dancers actually contributed to a reduction in fertility, if you know what I mean. So while the purpose of the pagan production was to produce a more purposeful and powerful understanding of what it meant to "stand in the crack" of the congregation, it actually caused future generations to become somewhat watered down, so to speak. Thus, the tribe became smaller and smaller, in much the same that that the dancers loin cloths and associated equipment did. Tragic, really. Thus, the first, "original" sin was actually one of bad art, specifically bad dancing by men in inappropriate apparel. After that it was all downhill.
Back when I was examining the WayAP class segment by segment, I was finding errors on every page, but this section of the class was what really convinced me of the utter worthlessness of anything Martindale taught, and led me to have the same opinion of Wierwille. (I think I was one of those who contributed to Wayward's information...I recognize a few turns of phrase )
As Wayward so ably presented, none of the words carry the meaning or nuance that he assigns to them. They are ordinary words, used in an ordinary sense that he decides must have sexual connotations. It was abundantly clear, using research materials available to any Way believer, that Martindale was full of carp. What got my attention though, even when I was a loyal "innie", was his use of homonyms to prove his point. Yes, homonyms are words that are spelled identically, but as Wayward stated, you have to PICK ONE! The context determines which one. "Fountain" and "crossing over" make no sense in the context. His explanation shows how little he knows of grammar, Greek, Hebrew, or English.
But this approach is not new. Karl Kahler, in The Cult That Snapped presents his notes on the "Athletes of the Spirit" teaching done by Martindale, and approved by Cummins and Wierwille. The same made up definitions and weaseling on translations are evident even back then.
The BOD definitely has seen the rebuttal to this "teaching", yet chooses to continue with the Martindalean "Original Sin of Mankind".
After presenting this rebuttal to John Reynolds and T*m H, my region coordinator, I was told that even if it can't be documented from the bible, it "must be true", "Because of what we know about homosexuality".
Somehow I think I was glad not have been subjected to the sight of LCM doing his ballet thing though as tight clothing would only emphasise where his brain was... ;)-->
Another thing possibly hindering them from moving forward in this subject is deep rooted in the leaders. Having been taught to work and make your own that which has already been opened up to us by the MOG. If not taught from him first we were not to share our findings with the household, it was never said (to me anyway) that I could not research it just never speak it.
This contradicted the WC research papers. Which were stopped by LCM stating they were rehash. So we were not to research that which he did not teach first, yet he was ....ed we gave him no new light in our research papers.
Within the last few years they were assigned to research 'debt' but never changed policy so you know the truth of the subject was just deep-sixed and probably the WC that found it were put on watch.
Oak, I believe I have used quite a bit of your research and observations on here in my rebuttals at home. If I save or print something to work on from home I take any references to the site and posters off the document. That's why I don't know who poasted what, but thank you very much for posting the things you do!
The problem with Joe Believer sharing things they find that contradict what TWI teaches is that we don't have any credibility and they think we're stupid. My own family doesn't believe me when I show them contradictions, but when someone from HQ shares the exact same thing they ooh and aaahh over it like they've never heard it before.
I think they have forgotten the verse about the foolish things confounding the wise.
HQ and the WC love it because they know they can continue lying and deceiving to get our money and manipulate us because the people left must be stupid to have stuck with them for so long. It's like those tobacco executives. They don't smoke because they KNOW it's deadly, but they aren't going to admit to US and lose the money they get from us.
Besides that, to change something means they have to admit that they never worked it and just took his word for what he taught. I doubt half of them even know how to really research the scriptures.
I haven't read the said thread on Eve and lesbianism. I don't want to put that trash in my head. Not even for research purposes.
Just the knowledge that it came from LCM is a trigger. Again a very sick man with to much power and no spiritual accountability "speaking the truth." Makes me want to hit someone.(I wont)
LCM appears to be a sex addict and it seems that tranference of a deep seated problem played out through the Bible. For him I am sad and for others that swallowed this stuff.
Imbus I believe that you are dead on the money...lCM was a sex *freak* everything he looked at physically, scripturally and spiritually was from this point of view....it tainted every *truth* that he ever presented.
No WONDER there was so little decency in him and under his regime...he COULDN`T really see the message of God ...the love...the kindness...decency...he just couldn`t see it...
I think that it was the same with vp as well...his *research* and pov were all tainted by his preconcieved notions...
When LCM was a little boy he must have played Doctors and Nurses and when the little girl asked if she could touch it he must have said "no - you have broken yours off"! :D-->
"Eternal vagina fix" I have a therapist friend that worked at a sex addiction treatment center and I'm gonna ask for her take on this peice of work. I'll get back with her reply. LCM... "What female hurt you so bad that you would even come up with this SH@T? My god is that the stuff you would tell your own daughter?"
One sick puppy is right. Martindale's complete obsession with his perverse sexual desires, colored everything he thought about. When you add to the mix, the idea that lcm knew about his wife's lesbian affair with Rosie...it all fits like a hand in a condom...oops, did I say condom?...another Freudian slip.
One sick puppy is right. Martindale's complete obsession with his perverse sexual desires, colored everything he thought about. When you add to the mix, the idea that lcm knew about his wife's lesbian affair with Rosie...it all fits like a hand in a condom...oops, did I say condom?...another Freudian slip.
Do you have PROOF of this accusation, Groucho?
I was wondering myself..... I heard LCM's wife was living with Rosie, and I have seen photos of TWI President -- and well - for me to 'assume' would not be good.... I suppose a Rocket Scientist could put 2 n 2 together without blowing up the planet.
Funny how I don't remember Rosie as part of TWI in the late 70s.
How could they be lesbian - they make such a big deal out of homosexuality being WRONG!!!
Is it just a big cover-up? I personally see nothing wrong with two women living under the same roof being 'room-mates'. How can you claim its more than that unless you have PROOF.
Now I'm not asking cause I'm a 'fan of either ladies'., I personally never MET either of them, but if a person is going to come out and make a BOLD Statement like that -- you'd want to be CERTAIN you have PROOF!! Couldn't you get 'sued' for false accusations like that? Curious....
Personally, I could give a rats patootie what either women do in their own space.
I think TWI has become an organization I could NOT support or be a part of now anyway.
There are, however, still some very precious people with wonderful personalities and big hearts for God still within its confines. I can name one -- Claudette Royale -- such a beautiful and very talented gal.
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Refiner
Excellent post !
They sure can make those Greek / Hebrew words mean anything they want eh?
I think I have never seen so much absorption with the Greek and Hebrew as I see in this church.
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ex10
well, what's so scary is that the man who taught this was head of TWI, as well as the "Research" Department.
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socks
And here I thought the first sin of mankind was the wearing of too-tight loin cloths by the male dancers that were a tribal offshoot of Cain's family and first worn in their production of "Athletikos De Sol - Standing in the Crack".
Hmmm, I stand corrected!
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Trefor Heywood
Hmm how can loincloths ever be too tight?
;)-->
(runs and hides quickly in case somebody doesn't see my joke)....
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Oakspear
Refiner:
Greek and Hebrew words can be an important key to understanding, especially if the translation can be shown to be inaccurate, or if more than one Greek word is translated by only one English word.
The Way, however, put way too much emphaisis on it.
Martindale's butchering of this verse is a good example of how TWI twisted this legitimate "key" to push it's unbiblical doctrines. Wierwille did it as well, although seldom as outrageously as this. He was a bit more subtle in his approach and seemed to have a better sense of what would freak people out than Martindale did.
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socks
Well there you go, Tref.
:D--> Although based on my indepth research the unusually tight and form fitting loin cloths worn by the male dancers actually contributed to a reduction in fertility, if you know what I mean. So while the purpose of the pagan production was to produce a more purposeful and powerful understanding of what it meant to "stand in the crack" of the congregation, it actually caused future generations to become somewhat watered down, so to speak. Thus, the tribe became smaller and smaller, in much the same that that the dancers loin cloths and associated equipment did. Tragic, really. Thus, the first, "original" sin was actually one of bad art, specifically bad dancing by men in inappropriate apparel. After that it was all downhill.
I'm sure LCM had first hand knowledge of this.
It's so Amazing!!! Isn't it???
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Oakspear
Back when I was examining the WayAP class segment by segment, I was finding errors on every page, but this section of the class was what really convinced me of the utter worthlessness of anything Martindale taught, and led me to have the same opinion of Wierwille. (I think I was one of those who contributed to Wayward's information...I recognize a few turns of phrase
)
As Wayward so ably presented, none of the words carry the meaning or nuance that he assigns to them. They are ordinary words, used in an ordinary sense that he decides must have sexual connotations. It was abundantly clear, using research materials available to any Way believer, that Martindale was full of carp. What got my attention though, even when I was a loyal "innie", was his use of homonyms to prove his point. Yes, homonyms are words that are spelled identically, but as Wayward stated, you have to PICK ONE! The context determines which one. "Fountain" and "crossing over" make no sense in the context. His explanation shows how little he knows of grammar, Greek, Hebrew, or English.
But this approach is not new. Karl Kahler, in The Cult That Snapped presents his notes on the "Athletes of the Spirit" teaching done by Martindale, and approved by Cummins and Wierwille. The same made up definitions and weaseling on translations are evident even back then.
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Oakspear
The BOD definitely has seen the rebuttal to this "teaching", yet chooses to continue with the Martindalean "Original Sin of Mankind".
After presenting this rebuttal to John Reynolds and T*m H, my region coordinator, I was told that even if it can't be documented from the bible, it "must be true", "Because of what we know about homosexuality".
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dmiller
The "son" learned the lesson well, that the "father" taught.
:(-->
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dmiller
Trefor -- which is the "joke"? The loincloth, or your statement?
-->
They are both sooooo apposite!!!
:D--> 
:D-->
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Trefor Heywood
Probably both dmiller
:D-->
Somehow I think I was glad not have been subjected to the sight of LCM doing his ballet thing though as tight clothing would only emphasise where his brain was...
;)-->
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houseisarockin
Another thing possibly hindering them from moving forward in this subject is deep rooted in the leaders. Having been taught to work and make your own that which has already been opened up to us by the MOG. If not taught from him first we were not to share our findings with the household, it was never said (to me anyway) that I could not research it just never speak it.
This contradicted the WC research papers. Which were stopped by LCM stating they were rehash. So we were not to research that which he did not teach first, yet he was ....ed we gave him no new light in our research papers.
Within the last few years they were assigned to research 'debt' but never changed policy so you know the truth of the subject was just deep-sixed and probably the WC that found it were put on watch.
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WaywardWayfer
Oak, I believe I have used quite a bit of your research and observations on here in my rebuttals at home. If I save or print something to work on from home I take any references to the site and posters off the document. That's why I don't know who poasted what, but thank you very much for posting the things you do!
The problem with Joe Believer sharing things they find that contradict what TWI teaches is that we don't have any credibility and they think we're stupid. My own family doesn't believe me when I show them contradictions, but when someone from HQ shares the exact same thing they ooh and aaahh over it like they've never heard it before.
I think they have forgotten the verse about the foolish things confounding the wise.
HQ and the WC love it because they know they can continue lying and deceiving to get our money and manipulate us because the people left must be stupid to have stuck with them for so long. It's like those tobacco executives. They don't smoke because they KNOW it's deadly, but they aren't going to admit to US and lose the money they get from us.
Besides that, to change something means they have to admit that they never worked it and just took his word for what he taught. I doubt half of them even know how to really research the scriptures.
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imbus
I haven't read the said thread on Eve and lesbianism. I don't want to put that trash in my head. Not even for research purposes.
Just the knowledge that it came from LCM is a trigger. Again a very sick man with to much power and no spiritual accountability "speaking the truth." Makes me want to hit someone.(I wont)
LCM appears to be a sex addict and it seems that tranference of a deep seated problem played out through the Bible. For him I am sad and for others that swallowed this stuff.
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Kevlar2000
When they're worn around a big forehead.
:D-->
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rascal
Imbus I believe that you are dead on the money...lCM was a sex *freak* everything he looked at physically, scripturally and spiritually was from this point of view....it tainted every *truth* that he ever presented.
No WONDER there was so little decency in him and under his regime...he COULDN`T really see the message of God ...the love...the kindness...decency...he just couldn`t see it...
I think that it was the same with vp as well...his *research* and pov were all tainted by his preconcieved notions...
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Zixar
For those who haven't read Martindale's "eternal fix" teaching, here's the link.
The Eternal Vagina Fix
One sick puppy...
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Trefor Heywood
That is just so Freudian!
When LCM was a little boy he must have played Doctors and Nurses and when the little girl asked if she could touch it he must have said "no - you have broken yours off"!
:D-->
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imbus
"Eternal vagina fix" I have a therapist friend that worked at a sex addiction treatment center and I'm gonna ask for her take on this peice of work. I'll get back with her reply. LCM... "What female hurt you so bad that you would even come up with this SH@T? My god is that the stuff you would tell your own daughter?"
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WordWolf
More on the subject,
in fact, more on it than lcm did...
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jetc57
OMG this man is OBVIOUSLY Suffering from some MENTAL ILLNESS, Devil Spirits, or SOMETHING. This is not NORMAL nor LOGICAL!!
BTW folks, when ya'll write "the BOD" what are you referring to? Also what is IMAO?
Thanks
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GrouchoMarxJr
One sick puppy is right. Martindale's complete obsession with his perverse sexual desires, colored everything he thought about. When you add to the mix, the idea that lcm knew about his wife's lesbian affair with Rosie...it all fits like a hand in a condom...oops, did I say condom?...another Freudian slip.
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jetc57
Do you have PROOF of this accusation, Groucho?
I was wondering myself..... I heard LCM's wife was living with Rosie, and I have seen photos of TWI President -- and well - for me to 'assume' would not be good.... I suppose a Rocket Scientist could put 2 n 2 together without blowing up the planet.
Funny how I don't remember Rosie as part of TWI in the late 70s.
How could they be lesbian - they make such a big deal out of homosexuality being WRONG!!!
Is it just a big cover-up? I personally see nothing wrong with two women living under the same roof being 'room-mates'. How can you claim its more than that unless you have PROOF.
Now I'm not asking cause I'm a 'fan of either ladies'., I personally never MET either of them, but if a person is going to come out and make a BOLD Statement like that -- you'd want to be CERTAIN you have PROOF!! Couldn't you get 'sued' for false accusations like that? Curious....
Personally, I could give a rats patootie what either women do in their own space.
I think TWI has become an organization I could NOT support or be a part of now anyway.
There are, however, still some very precious people with wonderful personalities and big hearts for God still within its confines. I can name one -- Claudette Royale -- such a beautiful and very talented gal.
Just thought I'd ask.
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WordWolf
Well,
there's some things we DO know.
We do know that Roza-lie had a lesbian couple living in her house at one point.
(Check the photo archives off the main site.)
This isn't proof of anything, in and of itself.
We do know that Rozilla and Donna, when on trips,
would not get separate rooms, nor a quad with 2 beds or whatever-
they slept in the same bed.
This, in and of itself, would have meant nothing in Abe Lincoln's time.
Someone said they walked in on Donna and Rozycheeks just after
"the crime was blazing".
Then again, they MIGHT have been mistaken.
======
Given how contrived the "courtship" and marriage of lcm and Donna
was (check the vp/wonderland thread),
there's room for speculation.
I can come up with LOTS of possibilities, but I won't.
The BOT was the Board of Trustees,
now known as the Board of Directors.
The BOD is the Board of Directors.
LMAO is internet slang-it's short for "laughing my aspirin off."
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