Good question PR....I remember vividly the day I realised that I was nothing more than a high pressure salesman for God.
We had been to my first app corpes meeting...and had been given techniques to entrap people ...a given set of questions to manouver a person into a proverbial corner.
The whole *bonus* thing of spiritual growth and awards for success...ie people in pfal......failure meant you were a loser .....I finally had a view of the rest of my life as a *hawker* of pfal and was in despair.
However it never dawned on me that it was anything OTHER than God`s will for my life.
There are no smoky backroom conspiracies if that's what you're asking. They really believe in the "product" they're selling. The nature of the product in this case dictates that it is spread in this way, and it just so happens that they have the bible and church history backing them up. It's just another corporation selling a product, only in this case the product is rotten and the people selling it don't have decent training.
Repeat: no conspiracies. They believe this stuff. No one is deliberately trying to bilk anyone. Trying to prove this is barking up the wrong tree when the problem is how dangerous the actual product is. They're like tobacco executives with the honest belief that smoking prolongs your life and that emphysema and lung cancer and bad breath are just aspects of the more abundant life .
When you use a supernatural filter to view how things work in a natural world, you end up sincerely doing a lot of wacky and destructive things that a normal-thinking outsider could only see as corrupt or even criminal.
I would characterize TWI as a corrupt religious organization.
But the problem here Pat, is that you have offered no definition or explanation of what you mean by "religion". The meaning can be quite varied.
Do you consider Christianity itself a religion? - How about Islam? - Buddhism? Or even environmentalism? Some definitions would include all of these others only one or two.
Since there is no clear and agreed upon definition of "religion" your question is hard to answer. And another problem is that if the definition offered excludes TWI then your point could be construed as begging the question by definition.
quote:They believe this stuff. No one is deliberately trying to bilk anyone. Trying to prove this is barking up the wrong tree when the problem is how dangerous the actual product is. They're like tobacco executives with the honest belief that smoking prolongs your life and that emphysema and lung cancer and bad breath are just aspects of the more abundant life .
Jason, with all due respect, the tobbaco executives are fully aware of the dangers of smoking. If you are going to try to prove that TWI's leaders actually believe their own swill then you need a better analogy than this.
I say that TWI's product is dangerous and that the BOT knows it.
I would define religion as something people believe in whatever flavor it is, does charitable works, worships in some sort of fashion, and does these things out of love and a true commitment to an ideal for the betterment of mankind.
Money however, if it is the main motivation or reason for the group's existance would be then a business venture or MLM. Their product if religious in nature is merely a thin veneer to cover the true underlying reason for the organization's existance.
Okay, before I leave for work let me switch from what I thought would be a mildly amusing, obviously ridiculous analogy to just saying it in black and white:
Yes, the product is dangerous and destructive. We all know that and if the people running the show were rational observers not blinded by religious idiocy, they would recognize that. They SHOULD recognize it and the fact that they persist is... irresponsible is the very nicest word I can come up with. The people running the crusades SHOULD have seen the destruction and evil they were responsible for, but religious mania is a beautifully blinding disease. I will not and cannot excuse the doctrine and practices and if a genie popped up and offered me one wish it would be to make the last 13 years of my life go away.
However, here's my point: The people in charge of this puppet show believe that what they believe and how they are carrying out their beliefs is right. It's a con of gargantuan proportions, but the people running the con don't know it. They may lie and play games with the truth to defend it, but in their eyes they are doing it for a good cause. You can catch them in a lie or half-truth in defense of their actions, and I hope you do, but you will not catch them running a criminal organization with malicious intent.
I do not present this as an opinion or a point for debate. This is simply how it is. They believe it and they are not deliberately running any kind of MLM or con job. You can not and will not get them to admit to it and they would pass a polygraph with flying colors. If there is ANY truth to the insinuations that people are knowingly performing fraudulent or illegal acts, no one but the people themselves have any way of knowing it and they have NOT given a hint of an admission to anyone. This is fact and if you find someone able to go to a witness stand and show any proof otherwise without performing perjury, I will happily eat my shoe and send you a videotape of me doing it. As far as I'm concerned this isn't even a good point to debate without any proof.
To make another analogy that will get attacked: This is on a par with claiming that a bad parent who loved his children deeply and thought that beating his children daily was the decent, proper loving thing to do. The act is despicable and evil and inexplicable to a rational outside observer, but the intentions are only good.
The intentions of TWI are exactly as they state them. If you ask for my honest opinion of DocVic, I believe he was either absolutely nuts or he KNEW that what he was pulling was a huge scam. I lean towards the latter. The current administration believes it and is chugging Koolaid along with the faithful followers. I can think of two other denominations (one of which is HUGE) that were started by people who knew they were con artists but are now most likely run by people who believe it.
In TWI's case, I know the people in charge believe the swill and I don't believe there's any point in debating intentions unless joustin windmills is your favorite sport. The end results are what should be shouted from the rooftops, as those are undeniable. To someone not blinded by religious mania, that is...
Oh... rasCathy... are you speaking of the "Christian Motivational Techniques" they might have shared with you? Those babies, when used for good, are great... I try not to use them for evil... no matter how tempting! :D-->
quote: I would define religion as something people believe in whatever flavor it is, does charitable works, worships in some sort of fashion, and does these things out of love and a true commitment to an ideal for the betterment of mankind.
Very Sneaky Pat. You throw in "does charitable works" knowing that TWI would not meet your definition of religion. You are begging the question by definition. Also Also, "love and true commitment" are not objectively measurable. Who decides ?
So I agree that by YOUR definition, TWI is not a "religious group", but by many other more accepted definitions they most certainly would be considered a religious group - a very corrupt one IMO.
Posted by Jason P.
quote:I do not present this as an opinion or a point for debate. This is simply how it is.
Oh really now ....
quote:In TWI's case, I know the people in charge believe the swill and I don't believe there's any point in debating intentions unless joustin windmills is your favorite sport
Jason, that is probably one of the most arrogant posts I think I have seen at GS in a long time. Pure rhetoric.
Jason "knows", so to disagree or to question Jason is "joustin windmills". This rhetoric and arrogance - and an attempt to stop debate or discussion with the all knowing Jason, cause HE "knows". And since Jason "knows" it is not open to debate.
What Jason believs is not an opinion it is "the way it is." - Sorry Jason, got to chuckle a bit on that one ... LOL!
Jason, just exactly how did you get to the point where you can see into the hearts of men and women and "know" their intentions? Just because you or I may have believed the swill doesn't mean that the BOD does. Unless you can into their heads what you "know" is just your opinion.
Jason, everything is an opinion here even what YOU think you know. Declaring it to indisputable truth and not debatable does not make it so.
Well, let me put it this way: I know it from personal knowledge, not speculation. The only way I could speak from better knowledge of the situation would be for me to be a mind reader or to be the people themselves. The only people I see saying that "leadership" are deliberately and knowingly perpetuating a scam are people with no access to first-hand information.
I can't prove it anymore than I can prove that someone's parents sincerely love their kids despite their abusive treatment of them. But if I know the parents and have access to years of firsthand experience with them and all this evidence adds up to a 99.9% certain knowledge that what they were sincere in their abuse, I would feel like it was worthwhile to offer that knowledge to counter speculation that they knew they were doing nasty, despicable things. I offer my insight of the intent here, that's all.
Now, if there are laws that have been broken, good intent or lack of knowledge of the law are no excuse ("your honor, I did not know that armed robbery is illegal" is no defense). I would be happy to provide whatever help I could to see a conviction come about if this were the case. Is TWI a MLM scheme and can this be proven? Man, I wish, and if you can do it I want to see it happen. To say that it is a deliberate MLM scheme, however, is mere speculation and I was trying to offer some insight based on what I know.
Can I prove to you it's not deliberate? I can't prove to you anything you've already decided isn't true. And I can't prove that TWI is NOT an intentional moneymaking scam any more than I can prove any other negative. I DO think it's damaging to credibility to imply criminal intent, though, since anyone with firsthand access to the people being spoken of here know it's not true. As much as anyone outside of God or the people themselves ever can know.
quote:A few friends and I were discussing whether TWI is really a religious group, or is TWI really a MLM using a thin veneer of religion to get tax exempt status. What's your opinion?
My involvement (and I know my whole family's involvement) was religious, so it was a religious group to me. I guess it all depends on who you talk to. Maybe some folks really do get involved and stay involved to reap worldly rewards.
That being said, believe there is suficient evidence to suggest that the BOD and Rivenbark in particualar willingly and knowingly bilk TWI's followers.
No Pet Policy for the rank and file - Rosie has a pet.
No home ownership policy - Rosie owns a home.
BOT has the only voice in doctrinal and financial matters.
Rosie lied about her knowledge of LCM "adultery".
All ABS goes to HQ - little if any goes back to the local areas from which it came.
Very large portion possibly a majority of ABS goes to maintain the lifestyles of BOD with immmaculate grounds/facilities and to provide them with assistants (servants?)
Giving of more ABS is stressed in most all periodic literature and according to a current innie in 75 - 85 percent of all official gatherings.
BOT give no accounting of ABS or how it is spent to its followers. TWI's books are closed to it's followers.
TWI's only "charity" seems to be the comfort and wel-being of the BOD. TWI does not give to any charitable causes such as clothing and feeding the poor, hospitals, community programs, etc.
I am sure that others could add to this list. Granted, the evidence is circumstantial but it seems highly suggestive of a snow job to me.
Jason, unless you sat on the BOD yourself or you were very "in" with the BOD like as a country or regional coordinator and privy to the inner workings of the minds of the BOT then your "knowledge" is just as much speculation as anyone elses. Is it possibly you were one of the "top leaders" that we throw rocks at all the time? (Rhetorical)
Offer some credible evidence (other than "I know") that Rosie and gang actually believe that what they are doing is of God and I will consider it.
Use Private Topics if you wish. I am not concerned with who you are, but rather with what you actually "know".
quote:The only people I see saying that "leadership" are deliberately and knowingly perpetuating a scam are people with no access to first-hand information.
I believe that is a reasonable way to look at it. But you also said:
quote:If you ask for my honest opinion of DocVic, I believe he was either absolutely nuts or he KNEW that what he was pulling was a huge scam. I lean towards the latter.
Question: why lean towards the latter? why automatically assume Victor Paul was deliberately and knowingly perpetuating a scam?
I don't believe they have ever said they don't want you to own a home. They do, however, have directions against having a mortgate. Typical TWI, there weren't any teachings on how to buy one for cash except believe God and save money. Oh yeah, and live on a need basis.
I’m not saying that you’re wrong. I don’t know and I have no reason to doubt you, however, you have to admit that it’s pretty hard to believe and understand that those evil people don’t know what they’re doing when you’ve had your life destroyed by them and you know darn well they know that they destroyed your life and lied to you in the process. It’s like you said ‘ignorance of the law is no excuse” and I think that people do have an idea of what’s normal and what’s not.
Maybe they believe they are truly of the only household of God and the only ones with the truth, but they are the same ones who know that vee pee pee plagarized much of his work, so they must be insane to believe what they do.
These are some of the excuses given to justify lcm’s infidelities and abuse of women. Are you saying that the many many wc who covered for him and went so far as to defend him to people actually believe these things?
LCM admitted that he has a problem, a 'weakness' when it comes to having sex with many partners, he likes variety.
His "apology" was that he knew he had blown it and was sorry that he had not had it covered better !
-- He said that having sex was no different then being drunk and he should just be forgiven
-- He explained that sex is a need just like any other need and God wants our needs met, that no laws of God were being broken and that we are not subject to bondage because we are free, and that flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit.
-- He said that the husband of the wife he was having sex with, needed to grow up and get over it because it was only sex.
-- That it was only a penis and a vagina and that it was no different then a kiss on the cheek, or a hug, it is just another form of physical contact.
-- He said that it could not be wrong with God because of all the revelation that he has been getting for the past ten years [Which is a clear indicator of at least how long this kind of behavior had been going on]
-- He purported that this helps him with his ministry and was therefore good for the whole ministry
-- He compared himself to King David and said at least I did not kill her husband
-- He explained to me how Jesus Christ and Paul both traveled with women who provided sexual companionship for them and being married really didn't make any difference
-- He talked about the lockbox and how important it was to keep confidentiality.
-- E & J H*rn*y have been said to tell people that there is nothing in the Word that says that you cannot have sex with whoever you want. There is nothing wrong with it. They have said that as long as you can handle it spiritually then it can be a profitable thing and God has no problem with it.
Someone was told these sexual practices were not only fine with God but even required if you wanted to move further with God.
However I seem to recall some folks here that knew of situations where folks were told to sell homes that they owned outright. Of course TWI got 15 percent of the sale price.
And if you consider that the vast majority of Wayfers could never pay cash for a home anyway, for all practical purposes the debt/mortgage policy forbade home ownership except to the wealthy or priviliged.
Your second point is true too. It's tough to save $80K or more for a house when you take time off for classes, quit when you can't take time off, etc. Not too many window washers around with that much free cash. The said thing is that there was NO teaching on exactly how their method was supposed to work. (Might be a reason for that)
On the question for the thread, I think OM is correct that most were/are in it for religious reasons. Or at least the same reasons other people join a church, synagogue, etc. God is in there somewhere but so are the social aspects.
I agree. I also think that most people in TWI were/are in it for religious reasons - to improve their lives, help others, serve God, learn the truth, find nirvana, dwell in the household of the prevailing word or whatever -which is not to say that the religious reasons are necessarily noble or that the core of the ministry is not rotten.
In all but the narowest of definitions TWI is a religious group. But whatever the definition, whether TWI is defined as religious or not seems insignificant to me. My question would be is TWI corrupt at the top.
IMO TWI's "religion" runs much deeper than just a tax exemption. The "religion" is also a hook to attract new followers and to manipulate/control the current ones.
quote:I'll sign a two-year commercial note with you. So the banker agreed that that was all right."
Uncle Harry's autobiography page 51 (one of several loans he took out)
Tisk tisk, you'd be m&a'd for that today. And no advanced class or leadership position for you...And it was VPW's house to boot. Naughty naughty hehehe
quote:they must be insane to believe what they do.
Sometimes I think that's all that needs to be said about the matter. And I was just as nuts to fall for it and to stick with it for so many years. And everything you pointed out should be printed in gigantic letters on billboards all around New Knoxville. I don't like the people in charge any more than anyone else does and I know that what they promote and do is destructive. Firsthand. And have seen it in many people I've loved over the years. Can't sensibly argue otherwise and I know my life certainly is no better for having been exposed to this organization. I do not and can not and would not defend any of the doctrine spewed forth from New Knoxville and have held on to virtually nothing I picked up in my 12 years as a Koolaid drinker.
I'm only trying to say that TWI is not DELIBERATELY a tax dodge covering up for a con game. And I would suggest that in the absence of honest evidence, it is not entirely responsible spout that kind of speculation, though it was presented in a relatively "safe" manner. Everything you listed and more (and more and more and more) is more than enough to convince people their time and money are much better spent elsewhere.
Can it be proven that in effect TWI is NOT legitimately a religious organization but is in fact a MLM scheme hiding behind a "church" shelter, regardless of the intent? I doubt it, but if it can be count me in as a cheerleader. Can the intent be proven? I've got a shoe and steak sauce waiting and will be happy to chow down on it as the verdict is being written and certain "leaders" are led off in handcuffs.
Goey: Prove a negative? Can't do it. Maybe this is why this country is an "innocent until proven guilty" kind of place. How am I so certain of what I say? Well, if there IS a WayGB they are probably already bugging people, and they are the wrong people. No one has any way of making the connection except the people involved unless someone's been tapping every conceivable form of communication. Don't believe me; it really makes no huge difference to me but I think an innie, and especially one who knows the people involved, would think that the MLM suggestion, which is where this started and really all I meant to address, is lousy speculation and not really a useful point of debate. There are countless accusations that can be made that will stick, and there are countless points that when added together can make the most sold-out Koolaid addict have to sit down and evaluate things. And there are countless ways to help in the healing process for people who have bailed. To me, this whole point is a blind fishing expedition and a distraction from any real productive discussion. That's my opinion.
OM:
quote:quote:
If you ask for my honest opinion of DocVic, I believe he was either absolutely nuts or he KNEW that what he was pulling was a huge scam. I lean towards the latter.
Question: why lean towards the latter? why automatically assume Victor Paul was deliberately and knowingly perpetuating a scam?
It's not quite an automatic assumption: The man heard God speak audibly and tell him something that obviously didn't come to pass and backfired in spectacular fashion. He saw phantom snow fall. We could go on all day about the outrageous claims this guy made - either he lied, which means he knowingly based the whole thing on a stack of lies, or he was insane and believed it.
I know that if you accept a lot of often contradictory supernatural assumptions there are other possibilities, but I choose to accept what is obvious and easily explained over what needs a mountain of supernatural excuses to reconcile. Hence my statement and I hope I presented it as an opinion and not fact. To me, there is no supernatural explanation necessary to anything that I know to have happened in TWI history so I choose to narrow it down to those two possibilities.
And I think this is as far as any of this can go without becoming even less constructive so I think I'm done with my involvement in this thread.
Finally: what's the quote? Something like never attribute to malice what can easily be explained by stupidity? I think that's a pretty good rule in many things TWI, which is not to diminish the impact and destructiveness of the stupidity.
quote:I can think of two other denominations (one of which is HUGE) that were started by people who knew they were con artists but are now most likely run by people who believe it.
Which two? (just wondering)
Re: The "no home" policy: how is one supposed to save up enough cash? the very fact that you had extra cash around to save would mean you weren't sharing enough of your abundance wouldn't it?
Finally... Jason P, are you related to Mister P Mosh?
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rascal
Good question PR....I remember vividly the day I realised that I was nothing more than a high pressure salesman for God.
We had been to my first app corpes meeting...and had been given techniques to entrap people ...a given set of questions to manouver a person into a proverbial corner.
The whole *bonus* thing of spiritual growth and awards for success...ie people in pfal......failure meant you were a loser .....I finally had a view of the rest of my life as a *hawker* of pfal and was in despair.
However it never dawned on me that it was anything OTHER than God`s will for my life.
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Jason P
There are no smoky backroom conspiracies if that's what you're asking. They really believe in the "product" they're selling. The nature of the product in this case dictates that it is spread in this way, and it just so happens that they have the bible and church history backing them up. It's just another corporation selling a product, only in this case the product is rotten and the people selling it don't have decent training.
Repeat: no conspiracies. They believe this stuff. No one is deliberately trying to bilk anyone. Trying to prove this is barking up the wrong tree when the problem is how dangerous the actual product is. They're like tobacco executives with the honest belief that smoking prolongs your life and that emphysema and lung cancer and bad breath are just aspects of the more abundant life .
When you use a supernatural filter to view how things work in a natural world, you end up sincerely doing a lot of wacky and destructive things that a normal-thinking outsider could only see as corrupt or even criminal.
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Goey
Pat,
Only two choices? Hmmm.
IMO, TWI is both, and then some.
I would characterize TWI as a corrupt religious organization.
But the problem here Pat, is that you have offered no definition or explanation of what you mean by "religion". The meaning can be quite varied.
Do you consider Christianity itself a religion? - How about Islam? - Buddhism? Or even environmentalism? Some definitions would include all of these others only one or two.
Since there is no clear and agreed upon definition of "religion" your question is hard to answer. And another problem is that if the definition offered excludes TWI then your point could be construed as begging the question by definition.
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Goey
Posted by JasonP
Jason, with all due respect, the tobbaco executives are fully aware of the dangers of smoking. If you are going to try to prove that TWI's leaders actually believe their own swill then you need a better analogy than this.
I say that TWI's product is dangerous and that the BOT knows it.
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pjroberge
Ok you exactness freaks, you got me hehehe
I would define religion as something people believe in whatever flavor it is, does charitable works, worships in some sort of fashion, and does these things out of love and a true commitment to an ideal for the betterment of mankind.
Money however, if it is the main motivation or reason for the group's existance would be then a business venture or MLM. Their product if religious in nature is merely a thin veneer to cover the true underlying reason for the organization's existance.
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Jason P
Okay, before I leave for work let me switch from what I thought would be a mildly amusing, obviously ridiculous analogy to just saying it in black and white:
Yes, the product is dangerous and destructive. We all know that and if the people running the show were rational observers not blinded by religious idiocy, they would recognize that. They SHOULD recognize it and the fact that they persist is... irresponsible is the very nicest word I can come up with. The people running the crusades SHOULD have seen the destruction and evil they were responsible for, but religious mania is a beautifully blinding disease. I will not and cannot excuse the doctrine and practices and if a genie popped up and offered me one wish it would be to make the last 13 years of my life go away.
However, here's my point: The people in charge of this puppet show believe that what they believe and how they are carrying out their beliefs is right. It's a con of gargantuan proportions, but the people running the con don't know it. They may lie and play games with the truth to defend it, but in their eyes they are doing it for a good cause. You can catch them in a lie or half-truth in defense of their actions, and I hope you do, but you will not catch them running a criminal organization with malicious intent.
I do not present this as an opinion or a point for debate. This is simply how it is. They believe it and they are not deliberately running any kind of MLM or con job. You can not and will not get them to admit to it and they would pass a polygraph with flying colors. If there is ANY truth to the insinuations that people are knowingly performing fraudulent or illegal acts, no one but the people themselves have any way of knowing it and they have NOT given a hint of an admission to anyone. This is fact and if you find someone able to go to a witness stand and show any proof otherwise without performing perjury, I will happily eat my shoe and send you a videotape of me doing it. As far as I'm concerned this isn't even a good point to debate without any proof.
To make another analogy that will get attacked: This is on a par with claiming that a bad parent who loved his children deeply and thought that beating his children daily was the decent, proper loving thing to do. The act is despicable and evil and inexplicable to a rational outside observer, but the intentions are only good.
The intentions of TWI are exactly as they state them. If you ask for my honest opinion of DocVic, I believe he was either absolutely nuts or he KNEW that what he was pulling was a huge scam. I lean towards the latter. The current administration believes it and is chugging Koolaid along with the faithful followers. I can think of two other denominations (one of which is HUGE) that were started by people who knew they were con artists but are now most likely run by people who believe it.
In TWI's case, I know the people in charge believe the swill and I don't believe there's any point in debating intentions unless joustin windmills is your favorite sport. The end results are what should be shouted from the rooftops, as those are undeniable. To someone not blinded by religious mania, that is...
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Tom Strange
I agree with Goey... the answer is "yes".
Oh... rasCathy... are you speaking of the "Christian Motivational Techniques" they might have shared with you? Those babies, when used for good, are great... I try not to use them for evil... no matter how tempting!
:D-->
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Goey
Pat,
Very Sneaky Pat. You throw in "does charitable works" knowing that TWI would not meet your definition of religion. You are begging the question by definition. Also Also, "love and true commitment" are not objectively measurable. Who decides ?
So I agree that by YOUR definition, TWI is not a "religious group", but by many other more accepted definitions they most certainly would be considered a religious group - a very corrupt one IMO.
Posted by Jason P.
Oh really now ....Jason, that is probably one of the most arrogant posts I think I have seen at GS in a long time. Pure rhetoric.
Jason "knows", so to disagree or to question Jason is "joustin windmills". This rhetoric and arrogance - and an attempt to stop debate or discussion with the all knowing Jason, cause HE "knows". And since Jason "knows" it is not open to debate.
What Jason believs is not an opinion it is "the way it is." - Sorry Jason, got to chuckle a bit on that one ... LOL!
Jason, just exactly how did you get to the point where you can see into the hearts of men and women and "know" their intentions? Just because you or I may have believed the swill doesn't mean that the BOD does. Unless you can into their heads what you "know" is just your opinion.
Jason, everything is an opinion here even what YOU think you know. Declaring it to indisputable truth and not debatable does not make it so.
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Jason P
Well, let me put it this way: I know it from personal knowledge, not speculation. The only way I could speak from better knowledge of the situation would be for me to be a mind reader or to be the people themselves. The only people I see saying that "leadership" are deliberately and knowingly perpetuating a scam are people with no access to first-hand information.
I can't prove it anymore than I can prove that someone's parents sincerely love their kids despite their abusive treatment of them. But if I know the parents and have access to years of firsthand experience with them and all this evidence adds up to a 99.9% certain knowledge that what they were sincere in their abuse, I would feel like it was worthwhile to offer that knowledge to counter speculation that they knew they were doing nasty, despicable things. I offer my insight of the intent here, that's all.
Now, if there are laws that have been broken, good intent or lack of knowledge of the law are no excuse ("your honor, I did not know that armed robbery is illegal" is no defense). I would be happy to provide whatever help I could to see a conviction come about if this were the case. Is TWI a MLM scheme and can this be proven? Man, I wish, and if you can do it I want to see it happen. To say that it is a deliberate MLM scheme, however, is mere speculation and I was trying to offer some insight based on what I know.
Can I prove to you it's not deliberate? I can't prove to you anything you've already decided isn't true. And I can't prove that TWI is NOT an intentional moneymaking scam any more than I can prove any other negative. I DO think it's damaging to credibility to imply criminal intent, though, since anyone with firsthand access to the people being spoken of here know it's not true. As much as anyone outside of God or the people themselves ever can know.
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oldiesman
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Goey
Jason,
Thanks, that was much better.
That being said, believe there is suficient evidence to suggest that the BOD and Rivenbark in particualar willingly and knowingly bilk TWI's followers.
No Pet Policy for the rank and file - Rosie has a pet.
No home ownership policy - Rosie owns a home.
BOT has the only voice in doctrinal and financial matters.
Rosie lied about her knowledge of LCM "adultery".
All ABS goes to HQ - little if any goes back to the local areas from which it came.
Very large portion possibly a majority of ABS goes to maintain the lifestyles of BOD with immmaculate grounds/facilities and to provide them with assistants (servants?)
Giving of more ABS is stressed in most all periodic literature and according to a current innie in 75 - 85 percent of all official gatherings.
BOT give no accounting of ABS or how it is spent to its followers. TWI's books are closed to it's followers.
TWI's only "charity" seems to be the comfort and wel-being of the BOD. TWI does not give to any charitable causes such as clothing and feeding the poor, hospitals, community programs, etc.
I am sure that others could add to this list. Granted, the evidence is circumstantial but it seems highly suggestive of a snow job to me.
Jason, unless you sat on the BOD yourself or you were very "in" with the BOD like as a country or regional coordinator and privy to the inner workings of the minds of the BOT then your "knowledge" is just as much speculation as anyone elses. Is it possibly you were one of the "top leaders" that we throw rocks at all the time? (Rhetorical)
Offer some credible evidence (other than "I know") that Rosie and gang actually believe that what they are doing is of God and I will consider it.
Use Private Topics if you wish. I am not concerned with who you are, but rather with what you actually "know".
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sadie
gosh Joey, I read blow job as snow job.
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oldiesman
Jason P, you said:
I believe that is a reasonable way to look at it. But you also said:Question: why lean towards the latter? why automatically assume Victor Paul was deliberately and knowingly perpetuating a scam?
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JustThinking
Goey,
I don't believe they have ever said they don't want you to own a home. They do, however, have directions against having a mortgate. Typical TWI, there weren't any teachings on how to buy one for cash except believe God and save money. Oh yeah, and live on a need basis.
JT
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insurgent
Jason,
I’m not saying that you’re wrong. I don’t know and I have no reason to doubt you, however, you have to admit that it’s pretty hard to believe and understand that those evil people don’t know what they’re doing when you’ve had your life destroyed by them and you know darn well they know that they destroyed your life and lied to you in the process. It’s like you said ‘ignorance of the law is no excuse” and I think that people do have an idea of what’s normal and what’s not.
Maybe they believe they are truly of the only household of God and the only ones with the truth, but they are the same ones who know that vee pee pee plagarized much of his work, so they must be insane to believe what they do.
These are some of the excuses given to justify lcm’s infidelities and abuse of women. Are you saying that the many many wc who covered for him and went so far as to defend him to people actually believe these things?
LCM admitted that he has a problem, a 'weakness' when it comes to having sex with many partners, he likes variety.
His "apology" was that he knew he had blown it and was sorry that he had not had it covered better !
-- He said that having sex was no different then being drunk and he should just be forgiven
-- He explained that sex is a need just like any other need and God wants our needs met, that no laws of God were being broken and that we are not subject to bondage because we are free, and that flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit.
-- He said that the husband of the wife he was having sex with, needed to grow up and get over it because it was only sex.
-- That it was only a penis and a vagina and that it was no different then a kiss on the cheek, or a hug, it is just another form of physical contact.
-- He said that it could not be wrong with God because of all the revelation that he has been getting for the past ten years [Which is a clear indicator of at least how long this kind of behavior had been going on]
-- He purported that this helps him with his ministry and was therefore good for the whole ministry
-- He compared himself to King David and said at least I did not kill her husband
-- He explained to me how Jesus Christ and Paul both traveled with women who provided sexual companionship for them and being married really didn't make any difference
-- He talked about the lockbox and how important it was to keep confidentiality.
-- E & J H*rn*y have been said to tell people that there is nothing in the Word that says that you cannot have sex with whoever you want. There is nothing wrong with it. They have said that as long as you can handle it spiritually then it can be a profitable thing and God has no problem with it.
Someone was told these sexual practices were not only fine with God but even required if you wanted to move further with God.
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Goey
JT,
You may be technically correct.
However I seem to recall some folks here that knew of situations where folks were told to sell homes that they owned outright. Of course TWI got 15 percent of the sale price.
And if you consider that the vast majority of Wayfers could never pay cash for a home anyway, for all practical purposes the debt/mortgage policy forbade home ownership except to the wealthy or priviliged.
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JustThinking
Goey,
I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.
Your second point is true too. It's tough to save $80K or more for a house when you take time off for classes, quit when you can't take time off, etc. Not too many window washers around with that much free cash. The said thing is that there was NO teaching on exactly how their method was supposed to work. (Might be a reason for that)
On the question for the thread, I think OM is correct that most were/are in it for religious reasons. Or at least the same reasons other people join a church, synagogue, etc. God is in there somewhere but so are the social aspects.
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Goey
JT,
I agree. I also think that most people in TWI were/are in it for religious reasons - to improve their lives, help others, serve God, learn the truth, find nirvana, dwell in the household of the prevailing word or whatever -which is not to say that the religious reasons are necessarily noble or that the core of the ministry is not rotten.
In all but the narowest of definitions TWI is a religious group. But whatever the definition, whether TWI is defined as religious or not seems insignificant to me. My question would be is TWI corrupt at the top.
IMO TWI's "religion" runs much deeper than just a tax exemption. The "religion" is also a hook to attract new followers and to manipulate/control the current ones.
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pjroberge
The renovation of the Wierwille home at HQ:
Uncle Harry's autobiography page 51 (one of several loans he took out)Tisk tisk, you'd be m&a'd for that today. And no advanced class or leadership position for you...And it was VPW's house to boot. Naughty naughty
hehehe
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excathedra
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
what's an MLM ?
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Jason P
Insurgent:
Sometimes I think that's all that needs to be said about the matter. And I was just as nuts to fall for it and to stick with it for so many years. And everything you pointed out should be printed in gigantic letters on billboards all around New Knoxville. I don't like the people in charge any more than anyone else does and I know that what they promote and do is destructive. Firsthand. And have seen it in many people I've loved over the years. Can't sensibly argue otherwise and I know my life certainly is no better for having been exposed to this organization. I do not and can not and would not defend any of the doctrine spewed forth from New Knoxville and have held on to virtually nothing I picked up in my 12 years as a Koolaid drinker.I'm only trying to say that TWI is not DELIBERATELY a tax dodge covering up for a con game. And I would suggest that in the absence of honest evidence, it is not entirely responsible spout that kind of speculation, though it was presented in a relatively "safe" manner. Everything you listed and more (and more and more and more) is more than enough to convince people their time and money are much better spent elsewhere.
Can it be proven that in effect TWI is NOT legitimately a religious organization but is in fact a MLM scheme hiding behind a "church" shelter, regardless of the intent? I doubt it, but if it can be count me in as a cheerleader. Can the intent be proven? I've got a shoe and steak sauce waiting and will be happy to chow down on it as the verdict is being written and certain "leaders" are led off in handcuffs.
Goey: Prove a negative? Can't do it. Maybe this is why this country is an "innocent until proven guilty" kind of place. How am I so certain of what I say? Well, if there IS a WayGB they are probably already bugging people, and they are the wrong people. No one has any way of making the connection except the people involved unless someone's been tapping every conceivable form of communication. Don't believe me; it really makes no huge difference to me but I think an innie, and especially one who knows the people involved, would think that the MLM suggestion, which is where this started and really all I meant to address, is lousy speculation and not really a useful point of debate. There are countless accusations that can be made that will stick, and there are countless points that when added together can make the most sold-out Koolaid addict have to sit down and evaluate things. And there are countless ways to help in the healing process for people who have bailed. To me, this whole point is a blind fishing expedition and a distraction from any real productive discussion. That's my opinion.
OM:
It's not quite an automatic assumption: The man heard God speak audibly and tell him something that obviously didn't come to pass and backfired in spectacular fashion. He saw phantom snow fall. We could go on all day about the outrageous claims this guy made - either he lied, which means he knowingly based the whole thing on a stack of lies, or he was insane and believed it.
I know that if you accept a lot of often contradictory supernatural assumptions there are other possibilities, but I choose to accept what is obvious and easily explained over what needs a mountain of supernatural excuses to reconcile. Hence my statement and I hope I presented it as an opinion and not fact. To me, there is no supernatural explanation necessary to anything that I know to have happened in TWI history so I choose to narrow it down to those two possibilities.
And I think this is as far as any of this can go without becoming even less constructive so I think I'm done with my involvement in this thread.
Finally: what's the quote? Something like never attribute to malice what can easily be explained by stupidity? I think that's a pretty good rule in many things TWI, which is not to diminish the impact and destructiveness of the stupidity.
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Tom Strange
Jason P:
Which two? (just wondering)Re: The "no home" policy: how is one supposed to save up enough cash? the very fact that you had extra cash around to save would mean you weren't sharing enough of your abundance wouldn't it?
Finally... Jason P, are you related to Mister P Mosh?
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excathedra
is it me, or are posts getting really long here ?
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JustThinking
Nope. ;-)
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