Amazing the similarities between such seemingly diverse cults. You seem to have a pretty good grasp of what life was like in WayWorld, without ever having been there.
Re:"I guess you all just weren’t holy enough to receive the reward. You weren’t able to keep your mind believing clearly enough, for long enough, to make it happen."
The common refrain heard amongst Wayfers was "Where am I missing it?" Yes, the idiotic doctrine was never questioned. If things didn't happen the way they were outlined in "The Blue Book", well, where else could the problem lie?
The nebulous "believing" of the individual was always the perpetrator. Yes, we've just got to "build our believing". We've just got to study "the Word" more.
So we end up spending even MORE time perusing the pages of a rather obtuse manuscript (the Bible) instead of 1. getting an education 2. getting a better job 3. spending more time with one's spouse, parent, child, friend 4. or maybe just relaxing for an afternoon (GOD FORBID!).
Such a waste of time it all was. A pathetic waste...
Individuals were singled out for public criticism and castigation??
If this has occurred as indicated, Im staggered.
The only higher level of abuse than this is public physical humiliation such as being sexually abused in public, or being publicly beaten.When you talk that level you are talking Jim Jones and Shoko Asahara.
Regarding the fact that I can successfully predict what the TWI sheep told themselves, and what the TWI organization told them as to the causes of failure to manifest perfection into their lives.....Well...they are exactly the same reasonings , excuses and lies used in a thousand cults.
Yeah, there was "public" castigation (though, outside of "Corps training" it didn't happen real often).
One incident in particular that I remember was at PFAL '77 the film crew wasn't paying enough attention to Herr Vierville for his liking so he stops his "teaching" midstream and takes off on a tirade against Joe C., the poor S.O.B. in charge of videotaping the event.
I don't remember his exact words but it was something to the effect of "get your head out of your a$$, Joe!", but it went on for a GREAT deal of time.
Funny thing was, that "reproof" session was left in the taping, so anyone viewing the class, years later, could still be a party to Joe's supposed misdeeds.
Another time I remember LCM tearing into another "Way Productions" person. A (I'm told) nice lady who had just recently released a music album of Wayferish tunes.
LoyBoy spent the better part of an hour playing sections of her album and screaming and yelling and decrying how "off the Wurd" her lyrics were, and how could she do such a thing, she must be under the influence of devil spirits, etc.
Also, it was almost routine to have somebody or other "roasted" at lunchtime announcements. They would be singled out for their particular transgression and made to stand up while the leader (whoever it was, often it was LCM) would tear into them for some (often trivial - or nonexistant) breach of WayWorld protocol.
This was always done under the pretext of "keeping people sharp", usually employing the "iron sharpeneth iron" verse of scripture. The net result of such practices was to make most everyone "gun shy" and making sure they were always CYAing.
Yeah, WayWorld got to be a real barrel of fun after you got fully initiated...
Of course, I imagine, and you indicate, such things wouldnt occur in any meeting where a member of the public , a potential recruit, might be in attendance.
As you seemed to say, these things happened in corps meetings.
They are the preserve of the initiated.
You would want to open the newspaper ans see the headline:
"Church leader screeches abuse at weeping and pregnant member"
Incident #1 - public berating received by me for bringing my very young children to a showing of a Martin Luther movie. I brought them ONLY because leadership told me to. The very same leadership which told me to bring them, chastised me in front of everyone for doing so. What is worse, many of the people present KNEW I had been told to bring them, but never spoke up on my behalf.
Incident #2 - I brought my very young children to fellowship because I was told to by my leadership. I did not want them there and neither did their father because they could not sit still and quiet and it was past their bedtime. I was later publicly reproved by my fellowship coordinator's leadership for bringing them.
Incident #3 - my best friend was publicly reproved for praying for "cop-outs" in fellowship.
Incident #4 - during incident #3, the fellowship coordinator used the "f-word" on his wife and ordered her to leave the room and go upstairs.
Those are just the four incidents which come immediately to mind. Believe my, by the late 1990's public humiliation was no longer only for the NaziCorps or "initiated". It was becoming quite common place.
In fact..........
#5 I witnessed to my best friend who lived in another state. She was publicly reproved for not making her toddler close his eyes during prayer, BEFORE she ever even took PFAL. Needless to say, she didn't hang around TWI very long.
I was one publicly castigated in front of the corps....Not one person came to talk to me afterwards nor even look into my eyes. I was completely devestated. But now I realize that they had fear that the same thing would happen to them.
Upon reflection there was public chastisement in the JWitnesses too.
This was inaugurated in the early 70s and, curiously, I was the first victim of the practise (Called “Public Reproof”) in my congregation (twig). I must say it was mild, merely a very public announcement made at the “Service meeting” (a meeting for the initiated, not the general public).
Still, despite its being relatively mild, the consequences were groans of despair on behalf of members of the congregation, and ostracism. Noone talked to me afterwards and I found who my friends were.
Of course, the theory behind confession, repentance and public reproof is that the erring one will turn from his way, and that he will receive loving support and guidance from the “shepherds” who are so concerned over the “one lost sheep”.
But the assistance and support never happens. The shepherds are to busy searching out hidden sin to have time to oil the heads of the sinners who have repented.
I agree. Both dehumanize the person and leave them isolated in more ways than one. They both also have the wonderful effect of making the victim the one who feels bad about the crime.
On the subject of VPs book, maybe Refiner could write HIS own? Just take the copy he purchased, change the name to Powerful and Abundant Lifestyle, redo the font and voila'! He has a new outreach ministry, income and literary work. And he gets his investment back. Life is good. ;-)
Yes Refiner, behind closed doors with his corps, VPW's verbal abuse could be scathing. One of the worst I ever saw was during a corps meeting at HQ while on staff. This poor 6th corps guy had the nerve to doze off during one of VP's long winded ramblings.
VP saw it and went ballistic, and just humiliated this poor guy - he'd never amount to anything spiritually, and on and on. Poor guy was gone the next day. You had to have been there - it was really shocking.
His henchmen followed and also did the same thing. LCM was notorious for verbal castigation of corps people publically.
Then, what got me, was once a year or so, in our monthly corps household newsletters, VP would write a column about how much he loved us and if he ever hurt any of us, how sorry he was. I used to think, yeah, right.
Kept us on our toes it did - you never knew who was going to be next or singled out.
I watched the leader of Europe, CG, go off on an Irish woman at corps week one year, except he just kept going, and going, and going, until he was hissing at her, and kept going. It dawned on me he was enjoying this immensely.
I think VP and the people who ended up as his top leadership were birds of a feather, there was a sadistic streak there. In most cases, people keep things like that hidden. But in a position of power, things come out that normally wouldn't.
Excie -- the only "advice" from me is that if he has reached his desired conclusions -- ie. - establishing the similarities -- why continue?
But --- that is me, and my take on it. Once I find an answer to a question I have, I let it go. Others wish to keep on discussing, re-hashing all that has been said.
My "advice" was only "PI" -- (Gawd -- how long has it been since I used that phrase!!), and that is why I concluded saying "t'is your thread.":)-->
Was just putting in my 2 cents worth about leaving it alone (because that is what I would do), yet also saying to refiner, that as the author of this thread, "please continue if it pleases you".
wow... I don't think I ever closed my eyes during prayer... what's the point? ...but how would anyone know anyway unless they had their eyes open?
my in laws are JW's... and it's really freaky to watch them... there's been a couple of incidents in the last year where two of them (seperate incidents) did something to be "dis-fellowshipped for a while... and it was just amazing to see some of the family members have nothing to do with them... I call them out on it when it happens! ...it's so ridiculous... they look at me as an outsider and I just tell them "hey, I was in a cult once, too"...
Excath - I remember that phrase from that poem - if no one is left to love you, you will know that I have died. VP just loved to use that. I never did believe it, did you? The sad thing is, that lots of corps did believe it.
Just wanted to backtrack for a moment concerning this "public castigation" that occurred in twi. I witnessed it numerous times but there was one in particular that I feel is worth mentioning:
I was in the 10th corps at Emporia...it was our first year in residence...At about 3am., the entire corps was woken from their sleep and ordered to report to the "top of vierville library"...we all sat there (over 500 of us) for awhile until lcm entered the room. He called out a certain individual's name (10th corps guy) and made him stand...he then announced that this person had actually committed the grievious sin of sneaking into town and eating pizza, when he was supposed to be on campus watching some dumb twi film! Lcm waited until the middle of the night to do this...
Lcm tore into this poor sob. like nothing I'd ever seen before...Vein popping, spittle flying, screaming! He tore this guy into pieces...I couldn't believe it, it was horrifying. He went on for about an hour straight! You'd have thought that the guy was caught having sex with a fellow corps members wife or something! After that occasion, everybody was extremely fearful that they would be next...
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George Aar
Refiner,
Amazing the similarities between such seemingly diverse cults. You seem to have a pretty good grasp of what life was like in WayWorld, without ever having been there.
Re:"I guess you all just weren’t holy enough to receive the reward. You weren’t able to keep your mind believing clearly enough, for long enough, to make it happen."
The common refrain heard amongst Wayfers was "Where am I missing it?" Yes, the idiotic doctrine was never questioned. If things didn't happen the way they were outlined in "The Blue Book", well, where else could the problem lie?
The nebulous "believing" of the individual was always the perpetrator. Yes, we've just got to "build our believing". We've just got to study "the Word" more.
So we end up spending even MORE time perusing the pages of a rather obtuse manuscript (the Bible) instead of 1. getting an education 2. getting a better job 3. spending more time with one's spouse, parent, child, friend 4. or maybe just relaxing for an afternoon (GOD FORBID!).
Such a waste of time it all was. A pathetic waste...
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Refiner
Individuals were singled out for public criticism and castigation??
If this has occurred as indicated, Im staggered.
The only higher level of abuse than this is public physical humiliation such as being sexually abused in public, or being publicly beaten.When you talk that level you are talking Jim Jones and Shoko Asahara.
Regarding the fact that I can successfully predict what the TWI sheep told themselves, and what the TWI organization told them as to the causes of failure to manifest perfection into their lives.....Well...they are exactly the same reasonings , excuses and lies used in a thousand cults.
So its not hard.
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George Aar
Refiner,
Yeah, there was "public" castigation (though, outside of "Corps training" it didn't happen real often).
One incident in particular that I remember was at PFAL '77 the film crew wasn't paying enough attention to Herr Vierville for his liking so he stops his "teaching" midstream and takes off on a tirade against Joe C., the poor S.O.B. in charge of videotaping the event.
I don't remember his exact words but it was something to the effect of "get your head out of your a$$, Joe!", but it went on for a GREAT deal of time.
Funny thing was, that "reproof" session was left in the taping, so anyone viewing the class, years later, could still be a party to Joe's supposed misdeeds.
Another time I remember LCM tearing into another "Way Productions" person. A (I'm told) nice lady who had just recently released a music album of Wayferish tunes.
LoyBoy spent the better part of an hour playing sections of her album and screaming and yelling and decrying how "off the Wurd" her lyrics were, and how could she do such a thing, she must be under the influence of devil spirits, etc.
Also, it was almost routine to have somebody or other "roasted" at lunchtime announcements. They would be singled out for their particular transgression and made to stand up while the leader (whoever it was, often it was LCM) would tear into them for some (often trivial - or nonexistant) breach of WayWorld protocol.
This was always done under the pretext of "keeping people sharp", usually employing the "iron sharpeneth iron" verse of scripture. The net result of such practices was to make most everyone "gun shy" and making sure they were always CYAing.
Yeah, WayWorld got to be a real barrel of fun after you got fully initiated...
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Refiner
Why thats just terrible George.
Of course, I imagine, and you indicate, such things wouldnt occur in any meeting where a member of the public , a potential recruit, might be in attendance.
As you seemed to say, these things happened in corps meetings.
They are the preserve of the initiated.
You would want to open the newspaper ans see the headline:
"Church leader screeches abuse at weeping and pregnant member"
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Abigail
Incident #1 - public berating received by me for bringing my very young children to a showing of a Martin Luther movie. I brought them ONLY because leadership told me to. The very same leadership which told me to bring them, chastised me in front of everyone for doing so. What is worse, many of the people present KNEW I had been told to bring them, but never spoke up on my behalf.
Incident #2 - I brought my very young children to fellowship because I was told to by my leadership. I did not want them there and neither did their father because they could not sit still and quiet and it was past their bedtime. I was later publicly reproved by my fellowship coordinator's leadership for bringing them.
Incident #3 - my best friend was publicly reproved for praying for "cop-outs" in fellowship.
Incident #4 - during incident #3, the fellowship coordinator used the "f-word" on his wife and ordered her to leave the room and go upstairs.
Those are just the four incidents which come immediately to mind. Believe my, by the late 1990's public humiliation was no longer only for the NaziCorps or "initiated". It was becoming quite common place.
In fact..........
#5 I witnessed to my best friend who lived in another state. She was publicly reproved for not making her toddler close his eyes during prayer, BEFORE she ever even took PFAL. Needless to say, she didn't hang around TWI very long.
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vickles
I was one publicly castigated in front of the corps....Not one person came to talk to me afterwards nor even look into my eyes. I was completely devestated. But now I realize that they had fear that the same thing would happen to them.
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Refiner
Upon reflection there was public chastisement in the JWitnesses too.
This was inaugurated in the early 70s and, curiously, I was the first victim of the practise (Called “Public Reproof”) in my congregation (twig). I must say it was mild, merely a very public announcement made at the “Service meeting” (a meeting for the initiated, not the general public).
Still, despite its being relatively mild, the consequences were groans of despair on behalf of members of the congregation, and ostracism. Noone talked to me afterwards and I found who my friends were.
Of course, the theory behind confession, repentance and public reproof is that the erring one will turn from his way, and that he will receive loving support and guidance from the “shepherds” who are so concerned over the “one lost sheep”.
But the assistance and support never happens. The shepherds are to busy searching out hidden sin to have time to oil the heads of the sinners who have repented.
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WordWolf
There wasn't that excuse in twi, even.
Take a look at the documents section, and listen to the RealAudio clips. There's
some on file there somewhere....
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excathedra
public shaming really hurt people pyschologically. i put it right up there with the sexual abuse
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JustThinking
Exie,
I agree. Both dehumanize the person and leave them isolated in more ways than one. They both also have the wonderful effect of making the victim the one who feels bad about the crime.
On the subject of VPs book, maybe Refiner could write HIS own? Just take the copy he purchased, change the name to Powerful and Abundant Lifestyle, redo the font and voila'! He has a new outreach ministry, income and literary work. And he gets his investment back. Life is good. ;-)
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def59
Ref
Aren't the demonic-drenched teachings of one group (JW) enough for one life?
I would plead with you not to pursue this penchant for vpw's stuff. Try the orthodox for awhile and give yourself a mental and spiritual break.
Just my thoughts
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Sunesis
Yes Refiner, behind closed doors with his corps, VPW's verbal abuse could be scathing. One of the worst I ever saw was during a corps meeting at HQ while on staff. This poor 6th corps guy had the nerve to doze off during one of VP's long winded ramblings.
VP saw it and went ballistic, and just humiliated this poor guy - he'd never amount to anything spiritually, and on and on. Poor guy was gone the next day. You had to have been there - it was really shocking.
His henchmen followed and also did the same thing. LCM was notorious for verbal castigation of corps people publically.
Then, what got me, was once a year or so, in our monthly corps household newsletters, VP would write a column about how much he loved us and if he ever hurt any of us, how sorry he was. I used to think, yeah, right.
Kept us on our toes it did - you never knew who was going to be next or singled out.
I watched the leader of Europe, CG, go off on an Irish woman at corps week one year, except he just kept going, and going, and going, until he was hissing at her, and kept going. It dawned on me he was enjoying this immensely.
I think VP and the people who ended up as his top leadership were birds of a feather, there was a sadistic streak there. In most cases, people keep things like that hidden. But in a position of power, things come out that normally wouldn't.
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dmiller
Def -- Great point, and I agree completely!
Refiner -- if you're wishing to correlate similarities between twi, JW, and your Mr. Stone group, it seems like that has been accomplished.
:)-->
I'd leave it alone too, once correlations were established, but that is me. Further discussion would only be repetitively redundant.
But hey -- t'is your thread!
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excathedra
def and dm, i don't get the advice for refiner ?
yeah sunesis ! remember, if no one else is left to love you, you'll know he has died....
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dmiller
Excie -- the only "advice" from me is that if he has reached his desired conclusions -- ie. - establishing the similarities -- why continue?
But --- that is me, and my take on it. Once I find an answer to a question I have, I let it go. Others wish to keep on discussing, re-hashing all that has been said.
My "advice" was only "PI" -- (Gawd -- how long has it been since I used that phrase!!), and that is why I concluded saying "t'is your thread."
:)-->
Was just putting in my 2 cents worth about leaving it alone (because that is what I would do), yet also saying to refiner, that as the author of this thread, "please continue if it pleases you".
Nothing more, nothing less.
:)-->
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excathedra
thank you dm
guess what expression i just remembered a minute ago ? don't ask me why....
ON GUARD !!!!
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dmiller
HA!!
;)-->
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dmiller
"On Guard" -- Been reading "The Three Musketeers" lately?
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Tom Strange
wow... I don't think I ever closed my eyes during prayer... what's the point? ...but how would anyone know anyway unless they had their eyes open?
my in laws are JW's... and it's really freaky to watch them... there's been a couple of incidents in the last year where two of them (seperate incidents) did something to be "dis-fellowshipped for a while... and it was just amazing to see some of the family members have nothing to do with them... I call them out on it when it happens! ...it's so ridiculous... they look at me as an outsider and I just tell them "hey, I was in a cult once, too"...
...they get kind of quiet after that...
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dmiller
Yea -- I never understood the "dis-fellowshipped" thing the JW's have going on.
A very good friend of mine was "dis-fellowshipped" for smoking cigarettes, and the ones doing the "dis-fellowshipping" were drunk when they did so.
Go figure.
-->
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dmiller
I guess some are more spiritual than others, and can "handle it".
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Sunesis
Excath - I remember that phrase from that poem - if no one is left to love you, you will know that I have died. VP just loved to use that. I never did believe it, did you? The sad thing is, that lots of corps did believe it.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Just wanted to backtrack for a moment concerning this "public castigation" that occurred in twi. I witnessed it numerous times but there was one in particular that I feel is worth mentioning:
I was in the 10th corps at Emporia...it was our first year in residence...At about 3am., the entire corps was woken from their sleep and ordered to report to the "top of vierville library"...we all sat there (over 500 of us) for awhile until lcm entered the room. He called out a certain individual's name (10th corps guy) and made him stand...he then announced that this person had actually committed the grievious sin of sneaking into town and eating pizza, when he was supposed to be on campus watching some dumb twi film! Lcm waited until the middle of the night to do this...
Lcm tore into this poor sob. like nothing I'd ever seen before...Vein popping, spittle flying, screaming! He tore this guy into pieces...I couldn't believe it, it was horrifying. He went on for about an hour straight! You'd have thought that the guy was caught having sex with a fellow corps members wife or something! After that occasion, everybody was extremely fearful that they would be next...
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vickles
sounds kind of familiar with what happened to me only it wasn't in the middle of the night and I didn't even go out for pizza...
:(-->
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