quote:I have always felt that 9/11 was a spiritual birth for our nation. 9/11 wass a glimpse of evil that none of us have ever seen in our lifetime.
There has definately been a climate change in the country since then. I see more secular musicians being more spiritual in their songwriting (Bruce Springsteen's ''The Rising'' for example) and partriotism and love of this country is prevelent. I would certainly hope and pray for a ''spiritual rebirth'', we sure could use it. Prayer for our president and our country and our troops...that's the answer.
I'm sticking to the story that Jesus is the way the truth and the life and that no man comes unto the Father God (who I believe is God of gods) without Jesus.
If there is anything nice about me it's only because Jesus lives in my heart (down deep).
the thinking that there is one god over all who makes no distinction between "religions" is what led Daniel Pearl into the arms of people who want to steal, kill and destroy anyone who is related to the G-d of Jesus and His people, as well as the rest of the Jews.
First I want to say that from your posts you are one of the "best up here". I admire so much of the things that you contribute to a thread. I love seeing both sides of every issue.
Your honesty and integrity shows up in all the posts I have ever seen you post.
Okay, Kit, if God is Jesus and Jesus is God, the trinity, then all of this would make sense.
You could substitute Jesus for God in the above mentioned list. I think that is what the article is trying to say. That eventually we all see that everything is all, and all is everything.
It looks to me like the fallacious God in the first list was taken from a rather extreme outside view of orthodox religion.
"Tomorrow's God" seem like a pop-psycology feel-good version of God constructed in imaginations of folks who have spent an awful lot of time in "group" or at AA meetings.
quote: I have always felt that 9/11 was a spiritual birth for our nation. 9/11 was a glimpse of evil that none of us have ever seen in our lifetime.
Don't know about the "spiritual birth", but I have to agree that our eyes were opened on that day.
Just a question here -- if I may.:)-->
9/11/2001 vs. Crucifixion Day (whatever year it was) Why can't folks see that as important of an event, as 9/11?? It certainly held more "import", given the significance of all it entailed. But it was also around 2,000 years ago, and time does too good of a job "fading" memories. -->
But I am just rambling, musing, wondering.............:)-->
Do I think that these arguments are true based on 9/11? Why would events of human interaction have any bearing on the existance or nature of God? Methinks Goey nailed this one.
My Bible says God does not change and that the world is firmly established and can not be shaken. It also says the world will wax worse and worse. It doesn't mean that I have to.
Not to say terrible things aren't going to happen. But, we do have the assurance that in the end, "He will judge the world with righteousness and all the nations with His truth".
I'm glad my spirituality is not contingent on other folks opinion of it. I'd be dummer than Sh@t to let that happen again and you would be my Man-God. Sound fomilure?
Bet you have never woke up somewhere, after a good binge on alcohol and wonder how you got there. I bet you have never gone to jail for a DWI and know the next time you drive and drink you are put away for a long time. I'v bet you have never been so needy for a shot that you wold lie, cheat and steal for it. I bet you never been in the position of trying to stop drinking but can't.
I find that the majority of folks who are alcoholics and go to AA, have had some spiritual abused and/or have had no relationship with God at all. They have found a place of total acceptance. To feel,grow and be supported. Unlike many religions, no one is lorded over or shamed.
The out come is a lifestyle of sobrity and hope when they do the 12 steps. How many belief systems have that to there credit? So I guess if any thing that sounds a little like AA... has got be be good. It has a better track record.
Bet you have never woke up somewhere, after a good binge on alcohol and wonder how you got there. I bet you have never gone to jail for a DWI and know the next time you drive and drink you are put away for a long time. I'v bet you have been been so needy of a shot that you wold lie, cheat and steal for it. I bet you never been in the position of trying to stop drinking but can't.
I bet you are very wrong!
On July 13th I will celebreate 15 years of "sobriety". I recall very vividly the day I quit drinking after having binged for several weeks that last time. I drank almost daily after leaving TWI in 1982 and I can probably tell you more than you want to know about abusive drinking.
I like many folks who abused either alcohol or drugs ended up in AA. I have attended literaly thousands of AA meetings over the last 15 years. I served on the Board of Trustees of the Surbarban Alcoholic Foundation here in Austin Texas off and on over the course of the last 10 years. - My assessment of "Tomorrow's God" comes from personal experience of having been in involved in AA and associated with the recovery community at large.
quote:I find that the majority of folks who are alcoholics and go to AA, have had some spiritual abused and/or have had no relationship with God at all.
I partly agree with this. I am not sure about a majority, but certainly quite a few.
quote:They have found a place of total acceptance. To feel,grow and be supported. Unlike many religions, no one is lorded over or shamed.
I see a quite a few folks lorded over by zealous "sponsors" who are manipulative and controlling - sometimes to the point of trying for define God for others.
Acceptance in AA is also sometimes dependant upon how many meetings you attend or how profound your "rap" appears to be in the meetings. Many times the "rap" is more pop-pycology that actual AA 12-step stuff, probably becasue of the high number of AA people exposed to therapy of some kind, and who try to bring the religion of pop-psycology in to the AA program.
Acceptance in AA can also be dependant upon one's views of their "higher power". While AA itself does not promote any particular concept of God, (God as you understand him), many AA members seem to have adopted something like "Tomorrow's God" and seem to think that it is an AA standard that others should adopt also. Many of these folks cringe at the name of Jesus and are quite intollerant of those who espouse Christianity while they themsleves languish over the evil and intollerant Christians. They are missing the boat IMO.
I was in one meeting in Bryan Texas where certain AA's objected to a person simply mentioning that he believed in Jesus while one of these members spoke of a door knob as being his higher power.
quote:The out come is a lifestyle of sobrity and hope when they do the 12 steps. How many belief systems have that to there credit? So I guess if any thing that sounds a little like AA... has got be be good. It has a better track record
Agreed, AA does have a better track record at helping folks sober up than anything out there. However, AA's purpose is to help folks get and stay sober and not to define God for them.
Here is a quote from AA's "Big Book"
quote:We think it no concern of ours what religious bodies
our members identify themselves with as individuals.
this should be an entirely personal affair which each
one decides for himself in the light of past associations,
or his present choice. Not all of join religious bodies,
but most of us favor such memberships. (Alcoholics Anonymous)P 154
I precieve you have had some negitive experiances with AAover the years. I'm sorry for that. My experiance has been quiet the opposite. The group I attend is so heartfilled with accetptance and support you walk out of a meeting, you know you are not alone and something was added to your life.
I recognize that not all folks that are sober and attent AA...are amotionally healthy. My sponcer said once that taking inventory of others is not our buisness if you're fault finding BUT you better take good inventory if you want to establish healty relations. Don't get to tangled up with folks who don't want change.. Those you can spot a mile away because they keep recreating their own chaos. Good advice.
I also know that there are folks that live the big book like it was their Bible. Some exhibit good character while others are control freaks.
All in all in every organization you will have folks who are not perfect and all those imperfections spill out at meetings. I find that if you stay on task with the 12 traditions and have strong adherance to not go beyound the 12 step program (into the "psyco stuff") then you have a meeting worth attending. I attend such a meeting.
If it had not been for AA I would not be posting here at this site. It allowed me the time and support I needed to work through my feelings about "my higher power" without critisim and I grew in courage to take the next step. That next step is part of my journey with GS.
I precieve you have had some negitive experiances with AAover the years. I'm sorry for that. My experiance has been quiet the opposite. The group I attend is so heartfilled with accetptance and support you walk out of a meeting, you know you are not alone and something was added to your life.
Actually my experience has been quite positive as I remain sober and have had no "slips" since I began nearly 15 years ago. Your perception is wrong.
But more to the point, I never bought in to the feel-good New Age kind of God that many A.A. folks seem to adopt, nor did I buy into the psycobabble that is heard in many AA meetings today. Neither is an actual part of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Recommended Posts
jezusfreaky
There has definately been a climate change in the country since then. I see more secular musicians being more spiritual in their songwriting (Bruce Springsteen's ''The Rising'' for example) and partriotism and love of this country is prevelent. I would certainly hope and pray for a ''spiritual rebirth'', we sure could use it. Prayer for our president and our country and our troops...that's the answer.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Kit Sober
I'm sticking to the story that Jesus is the way the truth and the life and that no man comes unto the Father God (who I believe is God of gods) without Jesus.
If there is anything nice about me it's only because Jesus lives in my heart (down deep).
the thinking that there is one god over all who makes no distinction between "religions" is what led Daniel Pearl into the arms of people who want to steal, kill and destroy anyone who is related to the G-d of Jesus and His people, as well as the rest of the Jews.
Hopefully,
Kit Sober
Reno NV
Link to comment
Share on other sites
outofdafog
Hey Kit,
First I want to say that from your posts you are one of the "best up here". I admire so much of the things that you contribute to a thread. I love seeing both sides of every issue.
Your honesty and integrity shows up in all the posts I have ever seen you post.
Peace,
outofdafog
Link to comment
Share on other sites
outofdafog
Okay, Kit, if God is Jesus and Jesus is God, the trinity, then all of this would make sense.
You could substitute Jesus for God in the above mentioned list. I think that is what the article is trying to say. That eventually we all see that everything is all, and all is everything.
Just a thought.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
imbus
My tomarrow God is a present day reality to me.
Thanks for the post.
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
It looks to me like the fallacious God in the first list was taken from a rather extreme outside view of orthodox religion.
"Tomorrow's God" seem like a pop-psycology feel-good version of God constructed in imaginations of folks who have spent an awful lot of time in "group" or at AA meetings.
I think neither view is correct.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought that, Goey.
Given those 2 choices, I pick "C".
(Well-disguised "False Dichotomy", that was...)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
I don't want a "Tomorrow God", since I need Him today.
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Don't know about the "spiritual birth", but I have to agree that our eyes were opened on that day.
Just a question here -- if I may.
:)-->
9/11/2001 vs. Crucifixion Day (whatever year it was) Why can't folks see that as important of an event, as 9/11?? It certainly held more "import", given the significance of all it entailed. But it was also around 2,000 years ago, and time does too good of a job "fading" memories.
-->
But I am just rambling, musing, wondering.............
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
And then there was 9/11 3 BC!!!!
:D-->
How's about that for a spiritual re-birth?? !!
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Refiner
I wouldve said that the biggest fallacy people hold about God is that he exists, is conscious, and sent himself to earth as Jesus Christ.
If God wants to deal with me I expect he can set fire to a bush and address me direct and in person.
When he does that, I'll concern myself with his requirements and might even believe he existeth
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustThinking
Goey,
Amen.
Do I think that these arguments are true based on 9/11? Why would events of human interaction have any bearing on the existance or nature of God? Methinks Goey nailed this one.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
insurgent
My Bible says God does not change and that the world is firmly established and can not be shaken. It also says the world will wax worse and worse. It doesn't mean that I have to.
Not to say terrible things aren't going to happen. But, we do have the assurance that in the end, "He will judge the world with righteousness and all the nations with His truth".
Ps 96
Link to comment
Share on other sites
imbus
I'm glad my spirituality is not contingent on other folks opinion of it. I'd be dummer than Sh@t to let that happen again and you would be my Man-God. Sound fomilure?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
imbus
Goey,
Bet you have never woke up somewhere, after a good binge on alcohol and wonder how you got there. I bet you have never gone to jail for a DWI and know the next time you drive and drink you are put away for a long time. I'v bet you have never been so needy for a shot that you wold lie, cheat and steal for it. I bet you never been in the position of trying to stop drinking but can't.
I find that the majority of folks who are alcoholics and go to AA, have had some spiritual abused and/or have had no relationship with God at all. They have found a place of total acceptance. To feel,grow and be supported. Unlike many religions, no one is lorded over or shamed.
The out come is a lifestyle of sobrity and hope when they do the 12 steps. How many belief systems have that to there credit? So I guess if any thing that sounds a little like AA... has got be be good. It has a better track record.
Edited by imbusLink to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
Imbus,
I bet you are very wrong!On July 13th I will celebreate 15 years of "sobriety". I recall very vividly the day I quit drinking after having binged for several weeks that last time. I drank almost daily after leaving TWI in 1982 and I can probably tell you more than you want to know about abusive drinking.
I like many folks who abused either alcohol or drugs ended up in AA. I have attended literaly thousands of AA meetings over the last 15 years. I served on the Board of Trustees of the Surbarban Alcoholic Foundation here in Austin Texas off and on over the course of the last 10 years. - My assessment of "Tomorrow's God" comes from personal experience of having been in involved in AA and associated with the recovery community at large.
I partly agree with this. I am not sure about a majority, but certainly quite a few.
I see a quite a few folks lorded over by zealous "sponsors" who are manipulative and controlling - sometimes to the point of trying for define God for others.Acceptance in AA is also sometimes dependant upon how many meetings you attend or how profound your "rap" appears to be in the meetings. Many times the "rap" is more pop-pycology that actual AA 12-step stuff, probably becasue of the high number of AA people exposed to therapy of some kind, and who try to bring the religion of pop-psycology in to the AA program.
Acceptance in AA can also be dependant upon one's views of their "higher power". While AA itself does not promote any particular concept of God, (God as you understand him), many AA members seem to have adopted something like "Tomorrow's God" and seem to think that it is an AA standard that others should adopt also. Many of these folks cringe at the name of Jesus and are quite intollerant of those who espouse Christianity while they themsleves languish over the evil and intollerant Christians. They are missing the boat IMO.
I was in one meeting in Bryan Texas where certain AA's objected to a person simply mentioning that he believed in Jesus while one of these members spoke of a door knob as being his higher power.
Agreed, AA does have a better track record at helping folks sober up than anything out there. However, AA's purpose is to help folks get and stay sober and not to define God for them.Here is a quote from AA's "Big Book"
Now how much were you considering betting?
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
imbus
Goey,
I precieve you have had some negitive experiances with AAover the years. I'm sorry for that. My experiance has been quiet the opposite. The group I attend is so heartfilled with accetptance and support you walk out of a meeting, you know you are not alone and something was added to your life.
I recognize that not all folks that are sober and attent AA...are amotionally healthy. My sponcer said once that taking inventory of others is not our buisness if you're fault finding BUT you better take good inventory if you want to establish healty relations. Don't get to tangled up with folks who don't want change.. Those you can spot a mile away because they keep recreating their own chaos. Good advice.
I also know that there are folks that live the big book like it was their Bible. Some exhibit good character while others are control freaks.
All in all in every organization you will have folks who are not perfect and all those imperfections spill out at meetings. I find that if you stay on task with the 12 traditions and have strong adherance to not go beyound the 12 step program (into the "psyco stuff") then you have a meeting worth attending. I attend such a meeting.
If it had not been for AA I would not be posting here at this site. It allowed me the time and support I needed to work through my feelings about "my higher power" without critisim and I grew in courage to take the next step. That next step is part of my journey with GS.
So having said all that "Easy does it".
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
Actually my experience has been quite positive as I remain sober and have had no "slips" since I began nearly 15 years ago. Your perception is wrong.
But more to the point, I never bought in to the feel-good New Age kind of God that many A.A. folks seem to adopt, nor did I buy into the psycobabble that is heard in many AA meetings today. Neither is an actual part of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Edited by GoeyLink to comment
Share on other sites
imbus
Goey,
Well I guess the "Psycobabble" that you refer to ,you didn't need. Again my sponcer says "take what you need and leave the rest."
For those that do need it and are continually sober, Godbless them all. What ever it takes.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.