I am learning about this trust issue also. Your right that we were taught to believe that if it didn't happen it was our believing. What is sad is that we missed out on the part that it didn't happen but something else did, we didn't give God the glory because we were too stuck on condemning ourselves and missed out on the big blessings.
I know with me -- I would get praised so much when I did believe and then when I didn't it was "oh, it's your own fault." I think you do start to slowly rely on yourself and what you are thinking, instead of first going to God. It's the slow manipulative process they have used. That was the first thing my mother said upon taking "the class." Where does God fit in and aren't you trying to tell him what to do? I don't know -- I'm still confused.
I think you learned the same lesson as those of us that were ACTUALLY in twi are just now beginning to learn. OUR PARENTS MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN COMPLETE AND TOTAL IDIOTS.
Your mom was right then, and she is right now. One of the most damaging aspects of cult participation, is that we cannot tell the difference anymore between "cult truth" and "real and Godly truth."
I don't know anything about you, your age, your education, your family, which off shoot you were in, but my advice to you is to start from scratch. Put away EVERYTHING you were taught in your offshoot. Get a brand new bible (if you are ready) and start from basics. It is a long and arduous task, I personally cannot look at my twi bible though I still have it (out in the back forty of my yard, in the storage shed.)
My experience says that you will need to put away everything "off shoot" and start from scratch.
There are lots of folks here at Gspot that can really help you in your search. My email is in my profile, so are a number of others that are just a few years ahead of you on your path to recovery.
quote: Where does God fit in and aren't you trying to tell him what to do?
Hooner, your mom is a smart lady. We were taught to tell God what we wanted to happen in our lives. We never were taught to ask Him to lead us. It was all about us and how great our believing was. Sounds to me like we were taught to be our own god.
"Telling" God to do something, is a result of "believing". What are you believing in? Your ability to believe? Your knowledge of the promises found in the Word? A class that tells you that "focused mental gymnastics" will get you what you want? Hmmm.
"Asking" God to lead/deliver, is a result of prayer. It is true that He is willing, and able to deliver and -- (imho) the only thing you have to "believe in" is His ability TO DO. Prayer simply means "to ask". To dictate is not part of the equation. The knowledge of the promises found in the Word are essential, because they show God's ability/willingness to do what we need. Not only that, but they are also in the past tense, meaning that they have already been accomplished through Jesus Christ.
Praying to God, or to Jesus Christ, asking for these promises is not the same as the "believing" that twi propounds. Daniel prayed for 3 weeks straight (read all about it in Daniel 10) before he got an answer to his prayer. Did he finally "believe" on the 21st day?? No. Look at what held up the "answer to prayer" (vs 12-13). Persevering in prayer is NOT to be equated with the twi version of believing.
As far as that goes, I doubt that prayer even enters the twi mindset when deliverance is sought. A short "prayer"/"mantra"/"call it what you will", and then it is up to you, and whatever brain cells you have left that are functional. -->
Oh -- did I say the knowledge of the promises in the Word were essential?? The only real promise you need to know is that God is your Father, you are His child. And just like an earthly father, God is willing to move Heavan and Earth for the son/daughter who asks, instead of dictating demands.
quote: The Way claims there is no power in the mind, yet they teach our believing controls outcomes in life.
Can't state this for a fact, but I am willing to bet that vpw "fell under the spell" of motivational speakers such as Og Mandigo, Napolean Hill, Zig Ziglar, and W. Clement Stone.
They all promoted "possibility thinking" -- "think, and grow rich" type of stuff. My guess is that vpw took what they offered in the "natural" realm, and put a "spiritual" spin to it, because every last thing he says about "believing equals receiving" is word for word from what these guys said.
I used to work for one of W. Clement Stone's companies, and every day we started out with "affirmations" to get us into a "Positive Mental Attitude" (PMA). Sound familiar??? Believing equals receiving. -->
These guys, and their "doctrine" are probably still be prominant in the sales arena (I left that a long time ago, so I don't know), but they were big time back 40 or so years ago, and I would bet a dollar to a doughnut that vpw plagarized from them just as quickly as he did from Stiles, Bullinger, etc., etc., etc.
I also struggle with the let go and let God thing. In TWI we were so trained that it was due to our believing and not God's will for our lives that things, good or bad, happen to us.
I will give you a scenario from my life:
About three years ago, my family (and there's 7 of us!) were living in a single wide 2 bedroom trailer. The landlord was a complete a$$hole and I was afraid to let my children outside to play, he lived right next to us.
I met a woman I used to go to church with when I first moved to Tennessee in a Big Lots store and we began talking. She needed prayer so we prayed for her and she asked us if we needed anything so we told her about our housing situation. She told us about a friend who had been renting a house in the historic area of town that was moving back to Florida. We went the next day to see this house and it was perfect for us! We had made a list of all the things we would want in a house and it had it all! I met with the landlord the next day and he told us we could move in with no deposit and to just pay the rent that was due in two weeks! God Bless you Tom! I had been praying for this house for months. God honored my prayer.
Fast forward to one year later. Tom had mentioned to us when we moved in that he had promised to sell the house to his accountant years ago, but didn't know when she would be moving back from Nashville. Well guess what, she bought the house and we had to leave this house, I believed (and still believe) was a gift from God. I was brokenhearted and very angry at Him for a long time. I couldn't understand why He would give us this house that we loved so much and then take it from us. We were back in a similar situation as before to boot. One night I sat up in bed after lying there for hours, tears streaming down my face I begged Him to answer me as to why He took my house from me. I cried and screamed and was furious with God for that. When I finally calmed down, He answered me: ''If I did it once, I will do it again...'' I could almost hear it and it kept repeating in my head.
Two weeks later a man from our church came to see us and asked us if we'd bought a house yet. We explained to him our situation and he told us he may have someting for us. Today we are homeowners of a 4 bedroom 3 bath house. It cost us $600 to get in and we can see Chilhowee Mountain from our back yard.
God will take care of you...don't lose faith! I have to remind myself everyday, but I know He's there.
After spending the majority of my youth/adult life in cults, TWI was not my first but my last, I'v had to simplify my spiritual walk. Because of the many levels of abuse with the bible, I'v had to ask my higher power (God) to communicate to me in a language that is not "Bible". I worked on what was athentic spiritually to me and what was not. That means I had to strip down to what I truly knew, not what I wished, was told was, and pushed my mind to belive. What I truly understood about God was establihed when I was a child with no outside influences. (It is an unspoken knowing that can't be put into words.)
Now that I am connected to that again, I communicate to My higher power in a way that is non triggering to me. I believe the word "God" is a trigger word for me and have found that this word is limiting to what I know.
Since my higher power knows no limits and cannot be contained, I throw my inner most desires and prayers out to "the universe" and allow for a two way openess to happen and what will be...Will Be!
I know that this sounds New Age but it is what works for me. I have not read this in a book so it is what resinates with my core self in connection with (the nameless one).
What is crutial to spiritual recovery is having your personia healed. Without your self-esteme in tact you will not venture into the unknown of who and what is God to you. You will be to frightened to. So spend some time taking care of yourself and allow God to make known her/him self to you. Enjoy the journey. :D-->
P.S I already know that my God has my best intrest in mine so whats to believe for? For God to act? I just need to live my athentic self and spirituality will happen.
It started out with something simple like "it works for saints and sinners alike". To me thats where God got cut out and idoltry took over. Directing God what he should and should not do. Something like a sheep talking but he really was a wolf dressed up.
Danny hit the nail right on the head..."works for saint and sinner alike"...Wierwille taught that there is a power within the mind that effects things externally...God was not included in this dynamic. He was relegated to an inactive role on the sidelines, while this great "law of believing" appropriated the desired results as WE activated this internal power source...
There are many folks who realize that the "law of believing" is as phoney as a three dollar bill, but I'm not sure how many realize how insideous and destructive this so called "law" really was. It was the basis for everything else that twi did...it was their "catch 22"...it was the false doctrine that laid the foundation for an idolatrous little cornfield cult to manipulate the lives of thousands...
We always heard "do your best and God does the rest." That has worked pretty well for us.
Disclaimer: The above words were said by folks in my twig who had no TWI title or job whatsoever. Maybe that's why I didn't have the bizarro standards that others have suffered.
JustThinking, they would say that too, but "your best" was sheer perfection to an ocd level. If you didn't get what you were demanding from God then you weren't believing and/or you weren't really doing "your best".
Remember Matt. 17:14-21 about faith as a mustard seed?
You trust God for the outcome. Trusting that He knows what is best, that He has the big picture. Trusting in Him we will have the faith to act, sometimes that means waiting. When waiting we can become more dependent on our relationship with God and more expectant. Looking for and finding Him everywhere. The key is not how much, just some.
Romans 3:9-20 - ALL PEOPLE...ARE UNDER THE POWER OF SIN. NO ONE IS GOOD - NOT EVEN ONE.
twi(t)s forget that none of us are perfect. All of us sin. And God blesses us and answers our prayers DESPITE how imperfect we are. It's a shame that they put so many people under bondage and fear of not "deserving" the goodness of God.
WashingtonWeather: Hi girl!! Good point about the drowning victim!
Insurgent: Good point about us all being sinners. Wayfers don't acknowledge that aspect of their lives. They don't acknowledge that their sin nature is what makes them DEPEND on God. It's like they think they get forgiven once and move the way they want to the rest of the time, forgetting God in the picture.
I'm approaching God with a new attitude in my life, and that is one of "show me what You want in my life." I trust Him because He knows what I need even more than I do for myself. It's a learning process, and it isn't always easy for me. But I am confident in knowing that I recognize God can do more for me than I gave Him credit for in the past.
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vickles
I am learning about this trust issue also. Your right that we were taught to believe that if it didn't happen it was our believing. What is sad is that we missed out on the part that it didn't happen but something else did, we didn't give God the glory because we were too stuck on condemning ourselves and missed out on the big blessings.
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Hooner
I know with me -- I would get praised so much when I did believe and then when I didn't it was "oh, it's your own fault." I think you do start to slowly rely on yourself and what you are thinking, instead of first going to God. It's the slow manipulative process they have used. That was the first thing my mother said upon taking "the class." Where does God fit in and aren't you trying to tell him what to do? I don't know -- I'm still confused.
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Radar OReilly
Hooner,
I think you learned the same lesson as those of us that were ACTUALLY in twi are just now beginning to learn. OUR PARENTS MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN COMPLETE AND TOTAL IDIOTS.
Your mom was right then, and she is right now. One of the most damaging aspects of cult participation, is that we cannot tell the difference anymore between "cult truth" and "real and Godly truth."
I don't know anything about you, your age, your education, your family, which off shoot you were in, but my advice to you is to start from scratch. Put away EVERYTHING you were taught in your offshoot. Get a brand new bible (if you are ready) and start from basics. It is a long and arduous task, I personally cannot look at my twi bible though I still have it (out in the back forty of my yard, in the storage shed.)
My experience says that you will need to put away everything "off shoot" and start from scratch.
There are lots of folks here at Gspot that can really help you in your search. My email is in my profile, so are a number of others that are just a few years ahead of you on your path to recovery.
Radar
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Nottawayfer
Hooner, your mom is a smart lady. We were taught to tell God what we wanted to happen in our lives. We never were taught to ask Him to lead us. It was all about us and how great our believing was. Sounds to me like we were taught to be our own god.
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dmiller
"Telling" God to do something, is a result of "believing". What are you believing in? Your ability to believe? Your knowledge of the promises found in the Word? A class that tells you that "focused mental gymnastics" will get you what you want? Hmmm.
"Asking" God to lead/deliver, is a result of prayer. It is true that He is willing, and able to deliver and -- (imho) the only thing you have to "believe in" is His ability TO DO. Prayer simply means "to ask". To dictate is not part of the equation. The knowledge of the promises found in the Word are essential, because they show God's ability/willingness to do what we need. Not only that, but they are also in the past tense, meaning that they have already been accomplished through Jesus Christ.
Praying to God, or to Jesus Christ, asking for these promises is not the same as the "believing" that twi propounds. Daniel prayed for 3 weeks straight (read all about it in Daniel 10) before he got an answer to his prayer. Did he finally "believe" on the 21st day?? No. Look at what held up the "answer to prayer" (vs 12-13). Persevering in prayer is NOT to be equated with the twi version of believing.
As far as that goes, I doubt that prayer even enters the twi mindset when deliverance is sought. A short "prayer"/"mantra"/"call it what you will", and then it is up to you, and whatever brain cells you have left that are functional.
-->
Oh -- did I say the knowledge of the promises in the Word were essential?? The only real promise you need to know is that God is your Father, you are His child. And just like an earthly father, God is willing to move Heavan and Earth for the son/daughter who asks, instead of dictating demands.
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dmiller
That was for you Hooner.
:)-->
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dmiller
Can't state this for a fact, but I am willing to bet that vpw "fell under the spell" of motivational speakers such as Og Mandigo, Napolean Hill, Zig Ziglar, and W. Clement Stone.
They all promoted "possibility thinking" -- "think, and grow rich" type of stuff. My guess is that vpw took what they offered in the "natural" realm, and put a "spiritual" spin to it, because every last thing he says about "believing equals receiving" is word for word from what these guys said.
I used to work for one of W. Clement Stone's companies, and every day we started out with "affirmations" to get us into a "Positive Mental Attitude" (PMA). Sound familiar??? Believing equals receiving.
-->
These guys, and their "doctrine" are probably still be prominant in the sales arena (I left that a long time ago, so I don't know), but they were big time back 40 or so years ago, and I would bet a dollar to a doughnut that vpw plagarized from them just as quickly as he did from Stiles, Bullinger, etc., etc., etc.
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jezusfreaky
Wayfernot!
I also struggle with the let go and let God thing. In TWI we were so trained that it was due to our believing and not God's will for our lives that things, good or bad, happen to us.
I will give you a scenario from my life:
About three years ago, my family (and there's 7 of us!) were living in a single wide 2 bedroom trailer. The landlord was a complete a$$hole and I was afraid to let my children outside to play, he lived right next to us.
I met a woman I used to go to church with when I first moved to Tennessee in a Big Lots store and we began talking. She needed prayer so we prayed for her and she asked us if we needed anything so we told her about our housing situation. She told us about a friend who had been renting a house in the historic area of town that was moving back to Florida. We went the next day to see this house and it was perfect for us! We had made a list of all the things we would want in a house and it had it all! I met with the landlord the next day and he told us we could move in with no deposit and to just pay the rent that was due in two weeks! God Bless you Tom! I had been praying for this house for months. God honored my prayer.
Fast forward to one year later. Tom had mentioned to us when we moved in that he had promised to sell the house to his accountant years ago, but didn't know when she would be moving back from Nashville. Well guess what, she bought the house and we had to leave this house, I believed (and still believe) was a gift from God. I was brokenhearted and very angry at Him for a long time. I couldn't understand why He would give us this house that we loved so much and then take it from us. We were back in a similar situation as before to boot. One night I sat up in bed after lying there for hours, tears streaming down my face I begged Him to answer me as to why He took my house from me. I cried and screamed and was furious with God for that. When I finally calmed down, He answered me: ''If I did it once, I will do it again...'' I could almost hear it and it kept repeating in my head.
Two weeks later a man from our church came to see us and asked us if we'd bought a house yet. We explained to him our situation and he told us he may have someting for us. Today we are homeowners of a 4 bedroom 3 bath house. It cost us $600 to get in and we can see Chilhowee Mountain from our back yard.
God will take care of you...don't lose faith! I have to remind myself everyday, but I know He's there.
Sorry for the novel.
:)-->
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washingtonweather
making our believing the impetous that answered prayers is dependent on is like saying God depends on us for direction....I don't think so
Last I knew, when a drowning person needs help--swimming lesson knowledge is not what saves them
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imbus
Dear sweet Wayfer...NOT!
After spending the majority of my youth/adult life in cults, TWI was not my first but my last, I'v had to simplify my spiritual walk. Because of the many levels of abuse with the bible, I'v had to ask my higher power (God) to communicate to me in a language that is not "Bible". I worked on what was athentic spiritually to me and what was not. That means I had to strip down to what I truly knew, not what I wished, was told was, and pushed my mind to belive. What I truly understood about God was establihed when I was a child with no outside influences. (It is an unspoken knowing that can't be put into words.)
Now that I am connected to that again, I communicate to My higher power in a way that is non triggering to me. I believe the word "God" is a trigger word for me and have found that this word is limiting to what I know.
Since my higher power knows no limits and cannot be contained, I throw my inner most desires and prayers out to "the universe" and allow for a two way openess to happen and what will be...Will Be!
I know that this sounds New Age but it is what works for me. I have not read this in a book so it is what resinates with my core self in connection with (the nameless one).
What is crutial to spiritual recovery is having your personia healed. Without your self-esteme in tact you will not venture into the unknown of who and what is God to you. You will be to frightened to. So spend some time taking care of yourself and allow God to make known her/him self to you. Enjoy the journey.
:D-->
P.S I already know that my God has my best intrest in mine so whats to believe for? For God to act? I just need to live my athentic self and spirituality will happen.
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Danny
It started out with something simple like "it works for saints and sinners alike". To me thats where God got cut out and idoltry took over. Directing God what he should and should not do. Something like a sheep talking but he really was a wolf dressed up.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Danny hit the nail right on the head..."works for saint and sinner alike"...Wierwille taught that there is a power within the mind that effects things externally...God was not included in this dynamic. He was relegated to an inactive role on the sidelines, while this great "law of believing" appropriated the desired results as WE activated this internal power source...
There are many folks who realize that the "law of believing" is as phoney as a three dollar bill, but I'm not sure how many realize how insideous and destructive this so called "law" really was. It was the basis for everything else that twi did...it was their "catch 22"...it was the false doctrine that laid the foundation for an idolatrous little cornfield cult to manipulate the lives of thousands...
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JustThinking
We always heard "do your best and God does the rest." That has worked pretty well for us.
Disclaimer: The above words were said by folks in my twig who had no TWI title or job whatsoever. Maybe that's why I didn't have the bizarro standards that others have suffered.
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insurgent
JustThinking, they would say that too, but "your best" was sheer perfection to an ocd level. If you didn't get what you were demanding from God then you weren't believing and/or you weren't really doing "your best".
Remember Matt. 17:14-21 about faith as a mustard seed?
You trust God for the outcome. Trusting that He knows what is best, that He has the big picture. Trusting in Him we will have the faith to act, sometimes that means waiting. When waiting we can become more dependent on our relationship with God and more expectant. Looking for and finding Him everywhere. The key is not how much, just some.
Romans 3:9-20 - ALL PEOPLE...ARE UNDER THE POWER OF SIN. NO ONE IS GOOD - NOT EVEN ONE.
twi(t)s forget that none of us are perfect. All of us sin. And God blesses us and answers our prayers DESPITE how imperfect we are. It's a shame that they put so many people under bondage and fear of not "deserving" the goodness of God.
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Nottawayfer
Excellent points!
JesusFreaky: awesome story!
WashingtonWeather: Hi girl!! Good point about the drowning victim!
Insurgent: Good point about us all being sinners. Wayfers don't acknowledge that aspect of their lives. They don't acknowledge that their sin nature is what makes them DEPEND on God. It's like they think they get forgiven once and move the way they want to the rest of the time, forgetting God in the picture.
I'm approaching God with a new attitude in my life, and that is one of "show me what You want in my life." I trust Him because He knows what I need even more than I do for myself. It's a learning process, and it isn't always easy for me. But I am confident in knowing that I recognize God can do more for me than I gave Him credit for in the past.
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