Hope, I agree with you. I think a lot of it was idle gossip, and kept "leaders" from forming a honest opinion about someone. Maybe that was one reason they kept circulating the corps in their assignments, so the masses were not aware of what kind of leaders they were stuck with. We were expected to give the new leadership a fair shake, but with their "secret squirrel" networks and copius record keeping, we were not afforded the same consideration demanded of us.
it broke my heart, people still struggling to find friendships and fellowship and some bible teaching or something and blam before I knew it Im hearing all the horror storys about a twenty year old boy now turning into a forty year old man still thinking they might love him some day if he tried hard enough to please them and shared his life enough.
this is so gross ....... so unloving ......so unkind so not how the bible says we are to feel towards our brothers and sisters even if they did screw up and ask for forgivness.
In twi I assumed we all loved and cared and would only do what was best for one another. then I got slapped real hard into reality one day.. and was marked.
but I went back Hope R. and nothing ever was said about what happened from the leaders in the way about why or how I was marked and avoided...
plenty of others who had left the way thought they knew the story and must have learned from a rumor mill because I heard the accounts of my life told to me and they were not even close to what really had happened but they were convinced even with me in their face reminding them it was my life they were talking about .
moves, the baggage goes. When a CORPS person was useless and totally screwed things up, they shuffled him/her to a new area without warming the newly inflicted. Great, thanks.
BTW, my title was "difficult." I earned that by actually using the books they sold me and catching multiple mistakes from one chowder-head leader after another. And we went through string of bozos who could barely pronounce ENGLISH words, let alone Greek or Hebrew!
quote: Someone who repeatedly questioned leadership was a "troublemaker"
Me, my (then) wife, and another couple were called troublemakers. The four of us came out of a Jesus Freak group, and were always asking "disruptive" questions.
Didn't know "troublemaker" was an official term!! :P-->
JT - yeah - "difficult" was one of those all inclusive labels used for anyone who asked too many questions.
Freaky - didn't hear "bad seed" thrown about too much as a label - it was a more spiritual term - especially when they were talking about a kid.
Wayward - I think the whole "rebellious" label is really more of a TWI 2 term. It got bandied around a lot in the last 10 years of TWI - especially after the homo purge.
Oooo - slothful! I forgot about that one. I think everyone who missed a meeting, didn't go to a class or a witnessing night was considered slothful!
Yeah - leaders were moved around because of their reputations, too. We had a BC come here a few years back who everyone said was just a great person when he was a staffer. I don't know what I was expecting - but - as my teenager would say - what a loser! So not all the info was reliable - especially when it was about a leader.
In twi, many times, when you moved to a new area to start over because you needed to start fresh, the leadership in the new area you moved to would call the old leadership to find out the dirt.
I gave up a wonderful friendship with a wonderful man I was dating because I was told of his past and that he wasn't the person I thought he was. Now looking back I wonder if a lot of it was untrue....I was so naive!!!!
Yes its an interesting thing about labelling or marking persons.
Now I can tell you that as a jehovahs witness there was a big focus upon confessing your sins, and that if one confessed, frequently that one was "reproved" in public from the stage, usually for the official sin of "conduct unbecoming a Christian".
Interestingly, in the literature, the theory behind confession is to seek assistance and support from the "older men" of the congregation.
Inevitably the opposite occurs, one recieves no "spiritual assistance" from church leaders, and one is "shunned" by church members one thought were friends because they dont want your taint to rub off on them.
How bout *homosexual* ...it was a label pinned on many women who were not *meek* enough ...I had two friends....one married and the mother of numerous children who was thrown out for that on spiritual *suspicion* ...she almost lost her husband before he decided to not believe what leadership said and left with her.
Another friend was m&a for *suspicion* of being a homosexual as well...she is now happily married with children last I heard....
Damn .... such destructive labels and actions to take on women who`s biggest sin... I believe was to be a tad to assertive in the presence of male leadership.
In TWI-2, I saw the "homo" label used when there was NOOOOOO evidence at all. It was simply a deduction on the part of some of the dumber people I've met. By dumb I mean low IQ. Inability or lack of training in logical thought and reasoning. Scary because they were either a BC or LC.
Here's how it goes:
1. Homos are insane (Proof is because LCM said so. Seriously)
2. Not believing the Word is insane.
3. TWI is only one teaching rightly divided Word.
4. You disagree with TWI.
5. The Word is the ministry and the ministry is the Word.
6. Disagreeing with TWI is the same as disagreeeing with the Word.
7. Therefore you are insane.
8. Therefore you are a homo.
Now if you had any "homo tendencies" in their mind, it was conclusive. For example, did you dress too well, enjoy ballet or go to art school? Well, there you go. Must be gay!
Were you a woman who had short hair, not married by the age of 30 or play sports? Must be gay! 1950s eras media stereotypes substituted for walking by the spirit of God, the Bible and common courtesy.
In TWI-2, I saw the "homo" label used when there was NOOOOOO evidence at all. It was simply a deduction on the part of some of the dumber people I've met. By dumb I mean low IQ. Inability or lack of training in logical thought and reasoning. Scary because they were either a BC or LC.
Here's how it goes:
1. Homos are insane (Proof is because LCM said so. Seriously)
2. Not believing the Word is insane.
3. TWI is only one teaching rightly divided Word.
4. You disagree with TWI.
5. The Word is the ministry and the ministry is the Word.
6. Disagreeing with TWI is the same as disagreeeing with the Word.
7. Therefore you are insane.
8. Therefore you are a homo.
Now if you had any "homo tendencies" in their mind, it was conclusive. For example, did you dress too well, enjoy ballet or go to art school? Well, there you go. Must be gay!
Were you a woman who had short hair, not married by the age of 30 or play sports? Must be gay! 1950s eras media stereotypes substituted for walking by the spirit of God, the Bible and common courtesy.
So glad to be out!
Um, JustThinking,
Do you mean "out" as in "out of twi", or did you make a personal announcement
that I missed at some point? Not that I'm judging, mind, just asking.....
==============================================
Let's see....liked hanging out all the time with burly football players,
insisted on wearing tights and doing a dance production, male...sounds like a
flaming homo according to twi-2 standards. (We know he would be flamed, at
any rate, if not literally set aflame, so he'd be flaming one way or the
other). The irony of this escaped him, of course. Wonder if he's insecure about
it nowadays...
=========================================
BTW, the "logic" you cited reminds me of a fallacy a philosophy professor once
said....
"God is love.
Love is blind.
Ray Charles is blind.
Therefore, Ray Charles is God."
========================================
Kramer: "I should have known all along you were gay. After all, you're over
30, and you're still single...."
Jerry: "What are you talking about? YOU'RE over 30, and YOU'RE still single!"
I musta left before most of yas, but the term I remember being used about someone who didn't rubber stamp everything that "leaders" did was that the person was one who "bucked" leadership.
I guess that meant that they still had a shred of individuality left, and you know how dangerous that can be to the "move of THE WURD".
Eeeek, my memories of WayWorld, though thankfully more distant each day, are stll like a bad dream. I can't believe I actually bought the bull$hit for sooooo long...
My label changed with leadership as they got or didn't get what they wanted. For example, when I was there to set up and clean up after every meeting I was a "good doulos" or "good disciple".
When I left a hair in the bathroom sink then I was "spiritually blind" or didn't have "renewed mind".
When I asked too many questions or wouldn't babysit the BC's BRATS for free every weekend, then I was "rebellous and aloof".
Now, as the Dixie Chicks say, I'm "a-long time gone!"
Well ...lets see...at 18 I had great *heart* and *meekness* *desire to do the word* great *potential*....etc...then leadership changed....and within three months I was labeled *posessed* when I told my tc to leave me alone when she dragged me outta bed by the leg and I hit the floor at 8 am (after I had worked all night) because I had not vaccumed the stairs yet (like they wouldda wanted me to do it at 5 am when I arrived home?) ...How n the heck DID I become soooo evil in such a short span of time...completely without effort and unbeknownst to myself???
Whats funny is that it never occured to me at the time to doubt her evaluation.....I just slunk off to await my spiritual *death* withdrawn from everyone....hiding hoping no believers would discover my secret shame.
Oh yeah -- and that's not YOU spilling a drink on accident -- it's spirit -- and you should have your renewed mind, why are you causing havoc. "I'm sorry, I didn't see the water there."
Another wonderful thing was when I was told "You came out of know where - you're *boyfriend at the time - husband now* brought you and you were so quiet and shy, we didn't know what to think?" ---- Um what the means of your outreach, only to get people with "outgoing/total social" personalities. A reason I wasn't talking alot was because there just seemed so much pressure -- but I loved my boyfriend at the time and did learn alot. Also, you need to teach, however, everyone has their own place in the body -- even the people quietly SIT'ing in the back are just as important as the leader -- BUT YOU NEED TO PULL YOUR PART AND TEACH!!!!!
I think I was labled as a rebel or prideful or soemthing like that.
I always questioned leadership when they did stupid things.
I questioned when the way decided to no longer ordaine women. :(--> THAT was a battle, I was "not meek" etc.
That was at the same time that the way put out that the wives of Limb Leaders were to stay home while their husbands traveled the state, teaching.
Yea right. I found out later, that was so they could seduce the younger women, geesh....
That stuff rolls down hill.
VPW
LCM
*
*
*
*
I said NO WAY IN HELL am I as a corps grad going to "stay home" ! --> I am a teacher!
So we were never given any kind of good leadership postition because the zeppo-head Limb leader in CA told my husband to "keep me in line" HA HA
When I was single, a new corps grad, My Limb Leader in SC called me one day and asked me to clean the Limb home windows. I told him how much it would cost and he watned me to do it free!!!! LOL :D--> :D-->
I refused, telling him he had WAY MORE money than I did, and that he could afford to pay me.
I was treated like **** the rest of my "tour of duty" in SC.
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Ham
Hope, I agree with you. I think a lot of it was idle gossip, and kept "leaders" from forming a honest opinion about someone. Maybe that was one reason they kept circulating the corps in their assignments, so the masses were not aware of what kind of leaders they were stuck with. We were expected to give the new leadership a fair shake, but with their "secret squirrel" networks and copius record keeping, we were not afforded the same consideration demanded of us.
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mj412
I saw that in the off shoots .
it broke my heart, people still struggling to find friendships and fellowship and some bible teaching or something and blam before I knew it Im hearing all the horror storys about a twenty year old boy now turning into a forty year old man still thinking they might love him some day if he tried hard enough to please them and shared his life enough.
this is so gross ....... so unloving ......so unkind so not how the bible says we are to feel towards our brothers and sisters even if they did screw up and ask for forgivness.
In twi I assumed we all loved and cared and would only do what was best for one another. then I got slapped real hard into reality one day.. and was marked.
but I went back Hope R. and nothing ever was said about what happened from the leaders in the way about why or how I was marked and avoided...
plenty of others who had left the way thought they knew the story and must have learned from a rumor mill because I heard the accounts of my life told to me and they were not even close to what really had happened but they were convinced even with me in their face reminding them it was my life they were talking about .
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JustThinking
Ok, here's the irony to me. When a nobody
moves, the baggage goes. When a CORPS person was useless and totally screwed things up, they shuffled him/her to a new area without warming the newly inflicted. Great, thanks.
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JustThinking
BTW, my title was "difficult." I earned that by actually using the books they sold me and catching multiple mistakes from one chowder-head leader after another. And we went through string of bozos who could barely pronounce ENGLISH words, let alone Greek or Hebrew!
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jezusfreaky
How 'bout ''bad seed'' Hoper??
Heard that one a lot...
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dmiller
Me, my (then) wife, and another couple were called troublemakers. The four of us came out of a Jesus Freak group, and were always asking "disruptive" questions.
Didn't know "troublemaker" was an official term!!
:P-->
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WaywardWayfer
"stubborn" and "rebellious" and we all know that:
1 Sam 15:23
I'm still called these things, but not to my face anymore. I've just "heard things".
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frank123lol
I was called slothful cause I did not send my
abs every week I saved it up,and sent,I was told too much money at one time.
Of course rebellous was a favorite one as lead-
ers did not like thier plans modified
my term for them was a bunch of boo heads
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Hope R.
JT - yeah - "difficult" was one of those all inclusive labels used for anyone who asked too many questions.
Freaky - didn't hear "bad seed" thrown about too much as a label - it was a more spiritual term - especially when they were talking about a kid.
Wayward - I think the whole "rebellious" label is really more of a TWI 2 term. It got bandied around a lot in the last 10 years of TWI - especially after the homo purge.
Oooo - slothful! I forgot about that one. I think everyone who missed a meeting, didn't go to a class or a witnessing night was considered slothful!
Yeah - leaders were moved around because of their reputations, too. We had a BC come here a few years back who everyone said was just a great person when he was a staffer. I don't know what I was expecting - but - as my teenager would say - what a loser! So not all the info was reliable - especially when it was about a leader.
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vickles
In twi, many times, when you moved to a new area to start over because you needed to start fresh, the leadership in the new area you moved to would call the old leadership to find out the dirt.
I gave up a wonderful friendship with a wonderful man I was dating because I was told of his past and that he wasn't the person I thought he was. Now looking back I wonder if a lot of it was untrue....I was so naive!!!!
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Refiner
Yes its an interesting thing about labelling or marking persons.
Now I can tell you that as a jehovahs witness there was a big focus upon confessing your sins, and that if one confessed, frequently that one was "reproved" in public from the stage, usually for the official sin of "conduct unbecoming a Christian".
Interestingly, in the literature, the theory behind confession is to seek assistance and support from the "older men" of the congregation.
Inevitably the opposite occurs, one recieves no "spiritual assistance" from church leaders, and one is "shunned" by church members one thought were friends because they dont want your taint to rub off on them.
One winds up shunned, alone and unsupported.
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rascal
How bout *homosexual* ...it was a label pinned on many women who were not *meek* enough ...I had two friends....one married and the mother of numerous children who was thrown out for that on spiritual *suspicion* ...she almost lost her husband before he decided to not believe what leadership said and left with her.
Another friend was m&a for *suspicion* of being a homosexual as well...she is now happily married with children last I heard....
Damn .... such destructive labels and actions to take on women who`s biggest sin... I believe was to be a tad to assertive in the presence of male leadership.
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JustThinking
The Homo Label
In TWI-2, I saw the "homo" label used when there was NOOOOOO evidence at all. It was simply a deduction on the part of some of the dumber people I've met. By dumb I mean low IQ. Inability or lack of training in logical thought and reasoning. Scary because they were either a BC or LC.
Here's how it goes:
1. Homos are insane (Proof is because LCM said so. Seriously)
2. Not believing the Word is insane.
3. TWI is only one teaching rightly divided Word.
4. You disagree with TWI.
5. The Word is the ministry and the ministry is the Word.
6. Disagreeing with TWI is the same as disagreeeing with the Word.
7. Therefore you are insane.
8. Therefore you are a homo.
Now if you had any "homo tendencies" in their mind, it was conclusive. For example, did you dress too well, enjoy ballet or go to art school? Well, there you go. Must be gay!
Were you a woman who had short hair, not married by the age of 30 or play sports? Must be gay! 1950s eras media stereotypes substituted for walking by the spirit of God, the Bible and common courtesy.
So glad to be out!
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Trefor Heywood
Well they couldn't spot a real homosexual at all.
They never spotted me!
:D-->
The super spiritual MOGS didn't and I met them both several times!
I was once labelled as "too religious" though!
:P-->
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WordWolf
Um, JustThinking,
Do you mean "out" as in "out of twi", or did you make a personal announcement
that I missed at some point? Not that I'm judging, mind, just asking.....
==============================================
Let's see....liked hanging out all the time with burly football players,
insisted on wearing tights and doing a dance production, male...sounds like a
flaming homo according to twi-2 standards. (We know he would be flamed, at
any rate, if not literally set aflame, so he'd be flaming one way or the
other). The irony of this escaped him, of course. Wonder if he's insecure about
it nowadays...
=========================================
BTW, the "logic" you cited reminds me of a fallacy a philosophy professor once
said....
"God is love.
Love is blind.
Ray Charles is blind.
Therefore, Ray Charles is God."
========================================
Kramer: "I should have known all along you were gay. After all, you're over
30, and you're still single...."
Jerry: "What are you talking about? YOU'RE over 30, and YOU'RE still single!"
Kramer: "AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!" *runs*
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way back in the 70s
In 70s terms, I "tripped out" because I was "off the Word". Then, I was "no longer standing".
"Off the Word" also applied to any secular books, movies, or songs that were "natural man" based.
What a long strange trip it's been !
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JustThinking
WordWolf,
ROTFLMAO! Oops! I meant out of TWI! Sorry!
:=)
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JustThinking
Trefor,
CP1: In-the-dumps spiritual perception and unawareness.
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George Aar
I musta left before most of yas, but the term I remember being used about someone who didn't rubber stamp everything that "leaders" did was that the person was one who "bucked" leadership.
I guess that meant that they still had a shred of individuality left, and you know how dangerous that can be to the "move of THE WURD".
Eeeek, my memories of WayWorld, though thankfully more distant each day, are stll like a bad dream. I can't believe I actually bought the bull$hit for sooooo long...
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ChasUFarley
My label changed with leadership as they got or didn't get what they wanted. For example, when I was there to set up and clean up after every meeting I was a "good doulos" or "good disciple".
When I left a hair in the bathroom sink then I was "spiritually blind" or didn't have "renewed mind".
When I asked too many questions or wouldn't babysit the BC's BRATS for free every weekend, then I was "rebellous and aloof".
Now, as the Dixie Chicks say, I'm "a-long time gone!"
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rascal
Well ...lets see...at 18 I had great *heart* and *meekness* *desire to do the word* great *potential*....etc...then leadership changed....and within three months I was labeled *posessed* when I told my tc to leave me alone when she dragged me outta bed by the leg and I hit the floor at 8 am (after I had worked all night) because I had not vaccumed the stairs yet (like they wouldda wanted me to do it at 5 am when I arrived home?) ...How n the heck DID I become soooo evil in such a short span of time...completely without effort and unbeknownst to myself???
Whats funny is that it never occured to me at the time to doubt her evaluation.....I just slunk off to await my spiritual *death* withdrawn from everyone....hiding hoping no believers would discover my secret shame.
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Hooner
Oh yeah -- and that's not YOU spilling a drink on accident -- it's spirit -- and you should have your renewed mind, why are you causing havoc. "I'm sorry, I didn't see the water there."
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Hooner
Another wonderful thing was when I was told "You came out of know where - you're *boyfriend at the time - husband now* brought you and you were so quiet and shy, we didn't know what to think?" ---- Um what the means of your outreach, only to get people with "outgoing/total social" personalities. A reason I wasn't talking alot was because there just seemed so much pressure -- but I loved my boyfriend at the time and did learn alot. Also, you need to teach, however, everyone has their own place in the body -- even the people quietly SIT'ing in the back are just as important as the leader -- BUT YOU NEED TO PULL YOUR PART AND TEACH!!!!!
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valerie52
Hope,
Your'e letter is so right on...
I think I was labled as a rebel or prideful or soemthing like that.
I always questioned leadership when they did stupid things.
I questioned when the way decided to no longer ordaine women.
:(--> THAT was a battle, I was "not meek" etc.
That was at the same time that the way put out that the wives of Limb Leaders were to stay home while their husbands traveled the state, teaching.
Yea right. I found out later, that was so they could seduce the younger women, geesh....
That stuff rolls down hill.
VPW
LCM
*
*
*
*
I said NO WAY IN HELL am I as a corps grad going to "stay home" !
--> I am a teacher!
So we were never given any kind of good leadership postition because the zeppo-head Limb leader in CA told my husband to "keep me in line" HA HA
When I was single, a new corps grad, My Limb Leader in SC called me one day and asked me to clean the Limb home windows. I told him how much it would cost and he watned me to do it free!!!! LOL
:D--> 
:D-->
I refused, telling him he had WAY MORE money than I did, and that he could afford to pay me.
I was treated like **** the rest of my "tour of duty" in SC.
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