Why would you liken what UncleHairy said to what Karl Marx would say. Are you trying to show this as an illustration of Karl Marx's statement of 'religion is the opiate of the masses'?
If so, do you say that to try to portray as Communist-wannabees those who think of TWI as an addictive drug?
Frankly, I can see his point from one angle, and no, I don't have this sudden urge to read Mao's little red book, either.
Garth...I was sorta wondering the same thing when I read oldies post...
Actually, he might even be correct, had I been referring to Christianity as a whole.
I have nothing at all against Christian fellowship...I believe that it's a good thing for folks to associate themselves with a spiritual support group...one that advises, councils, admonishes, teaches, etc., etc...it's when the "group" is manipulative and abusive (like twi), that I have problems with it.
Karl Marx (not to be confused with Groucho) was an atheist. I think perhaps oldies was confusing my position against twi, thinking that I was referring to all Christian groups. ;)-->
1. Being told they were going full time corps (During LCM's Most Excellent Adventure)
2. Then told when they got to ROA that they were being dropped because they "weren't corps material." Whatever that means. No explanation.
3. Later being booted out for not living up to their corps calling. Really, no kidding.
They willingly asked to come back about 5 years later! Talk about your gluttons for punishment. As long as there are people who like to be abused there will be others willing to do it. I used to think TWI would fade away. Now I realize that there will always be at least a small group who want to be told what to do.
quote:If so, do you say that to try to portray as Communist-wannabees those who think of TWI as an addictive drug?
No, I'm not saying Uncle Hairy is a communist wannabe. Just suggesting that Uncle Hairy's statements may be applied to all religions, not just twi, if one wishes to insult its participants. Just about all he said may be present in all religions if that's the way one looks at it. I've seen those things present in my older one (Roman Catholicism). For example, one may, if one wishes to be mean, make a comparison that a participant receiving communion religiously every week is like a junkie getting his fix. What would both be without it?
Of the 34 GSer's who participated in this poll 21 knew of no one that they thought would return to TWI under any circumstances.
However, the 12 others that voted knew of at least 35 people that they believed would return to TWI under the right cirmunstances.
34 voted and these 34 knew a total of 35 folks that they believed would return to TWI under the right cicumstances. The ratio is close to 1:1.
So we could possibly project then, that if 100 people here voted they would know appromixately 100 people that might go back to TWI.
Let's asseume that TWI actually had 25,000 folks at one time. Let's also assume there there are only 5,000 left. If only 20 percent of those that left or got kicked out returned then that would be 4,000 people.
Assuming an average income of only 20,000 per year that come to 3,000 in ABS per person per year. That about 12 million in ABS.
Why doesn't TWI change? Is it more than just the money?
I can't think of a thing TWI could do that would pave the way for my return. However, I might see reason to "respect" them once again if they would publicly acknowledge (both to current and former believers), that terrible, dark sins were perpetrated against God's people by TWI leadership in the name of God, and that LCM is by no means the only one to blame for this. Furthermore, they would need to apologize for these transgressions---Never happen, I know...
But I might perhaps be an extreme example, in that the idea of attending any Christian gathering is enough to give me the willies. My trust of ANYONE claiming to "speak for God" may have been irretreivably broken.
But I believe I know of one or two folks, who, if the above would occur, might seriously consider returning on a trial basis. But undoubtedly, there are others who would return if they were just issued a personal apology and an invitation to return. I suspect that the BOD has knocked around this idea on more than one occassion, but are not really sure about implications of having to deal with people who have a history of hurt with TWI. I'm sure they would much rather deal with an entirely new crop of followers. That way, they could more easily "reinvent" the ministry. However, I doubt they could ever come to an agreement on the neccessary changes. They seem to be just foundering about, unsure of which way to go. There's no "visionary" left, or strong charismatic leader with the will to seriously rebuild what has fallen apart.
I think the BOD has plenty of money to keep their lifestyles going. That money was made in the heyday of TWI in the late 70's-early 80's, and is tied up in investments that earn dividends. (I know some of it was invested in gold back then.) But they can't divide the bulk of the money among themselves, because they are a not-for-profit organization. They must continue to keep up the appearance of following the Articles of Incorporation. They must continue to hold "jobs" within the organization, because they may not make a salary as merely a member of the BOD. (It's against the law.) But if they're too successful, their jobs will be that much harder. Too many people to coordinate!
So I think they continue to do as little as they think they can get away with in the eyes of the IRS. They must protect their positions at all costs from those who would "out" them, for they would have to fold the corporation and give the investments to another similar organization. (CES??!!)
They show the IRS what products they are producing to continue to woo converts. It's not THEIR fault that nobody comes!
I am amazed that they have been allowed to go on this long, with a huge carryover from year to year, and so few followers for all the staff and expenditures.
This is only my opinion but I have to say that I would never return. I am a forgiving person but I would find it very hard to interact with the people who gave me up for a spiritually posssed person who turned my back on God because I left.
I believe it would be very hard for those who have been in TWI and listened and obeyed past and present leadership to change their way of thinking.
I can comfortably say, "thinking" because if a person truly studied and believed in God's word these beliefs and actions would not be a part of a true believer's actions toward others.
I think that the BOD may be seeing that little 25 million investment nestegg dwindle. (I think the investments make up about 25 million)
As long as ABS levels are sufficient, they can keep the status quo and no have to touch the investments.
But if ABS levels drop to a point that they cannot cover extra expenses such as lawsuit settlements and attorney fees, along with their fixed expenses, then they will have either tap in to the investments, or do something else in order the keep the investments at current levels.
What could they do?
1. Sell off unneeded assets like Gunnison, other proprties, etc.
2. Demand more ABS from current followers.
3. Attract new followers and their associated ABS
They could possibly do a combination if these.
Hypothetically - if the Peelers were to win their suit that could be a big blow to TWI's pocketbook, not only in the initial cash loss, but in the fact that it would open the door up for other to get simlar awards, since the Peelers are not uniquie in what happened to them. There could be a domino effect.
My theory is that the BOD could be seeing the writing on the wall and seeing their little nest egg disolve away. Either in assets or in cash investments.
In the event of a severe enough ABS short fall where costs and expenses could not be covered by ABS plus interest on investments - they will have to either tap into the investment principle or sell off assets.
Fixed assets represent an expense to maintain so it would be more likely that assets will be sold off first - they did this before with Emporia and the Indiana campus.
It will be interesting to see what changes the BOD may make (if any) in the future. It would not surprise me at all if they began to make changes that will protect their investment nest egg that affords them their current lifestyles.
Of course I am projecting here, but it it seems to me the best way to protect the investments and assets would be to try and get more followers to foot the bills. So it would also not supprise me if we see TWI do more things and makes some changes to attract more followers.
On another note: After the IRS made it secret deal with Scientology, and the deal was exposed, I am not so sure that TWI has too much to fear there.
Goey, I don't know anything about the secret deal with the IRS and Scientology, but I don't think TWI has nearly the clout, pull or money to be anywhere near as intimidating or influential as Scientology.
I don't think that it will be easy for TWI to get any new people no matter what changes they make. They target middle and upper-middle class white folks. These are the primary users of the computer and they will check TWI out online and find out more than they need to know about why to stay away. TWI will not even get a chance to rebutt unless someone just wants to play with them.
The older crowds are pretty set in their ways and the younger crowds are pretty independent and wary of groups considered bad. But, then again, the cult list keeps growing and more and more people are coming out of cults - so someone's falling for the hooey we did.
Still, I don't think TWI has any charisma or atmosphere left to attract dung beetles much less people with money.
They already mention abundant sharing in 75% of their teachings and witnessing in about 85% (yes, they overlap). My vote is on them selling off more property to maintain the royal lifestyles they are used to.
The IRS/Scientology deal set a precendent of sorts. It's not that TWI has any clout with the IRS. But if the IRS let's Scientology off the hook and then goes after others cults/religions for the same stuff then it is playing religious favorites. It got itslef in a jam and tied its own hands so to speak.
I agree that TWI getting more follwers will be a problem, however this does not mean they won't try. This poll shows that quite a few folks would return to TWI under the right circumstances. If things get financally bad enough for TWI, I would be looking for some changes in that area anyway, even if they don't really work that well. Certain changes could at least keep a few folks from leaving - maybe.
For me, I wouldn't ever go back with the current leadership and thier a$$ ki**er, WayGB yes people still running to tell them everything you did or didn't do.
I know that sounds mean spirited. But with why I got out (volintarily on my part) the only thing I am waiting for is the return and having a bigger fellowship with GOD and Jesus, which would be a much sweeter and kinder fellowship with no backbiting and pressure at all.
Go back to TWI now? No way.I get more intimate, REAL, godly fellowship talking to God and other outties and babes in Christ than I did any time EVER with a TWI person.
I recently went to a celebration that was hosted by an "innie." ( I have been mark and avoided over 6 years ago).I saw several other "innies" at this party who at one time were an inspiration to me.
What is sad is that this one person in particular, when I tried to talk about the goodness of God, and that God is worthy to be praised, turned like stone and walked away.
I got that kind of response to God's spoken Word by devote Baptists and other denominational christians. But from a TWI person? I was amazed that the coldness to the WOrd was so apparent. I was not surprised by it, just perplexed at the intensity of it.
Go back now? Not now, not ever, unless God specifically tells me, "Papertrained, its time to take your paints back to TWI and bring 'em some color."
It is likely the event was a cover to recruit newbies for a class. It would be obvious that you weren't going to write a check so why bother with you? Not to be harsh but that was the mindset.
your right man they are on people like flys on sticky tape.. to come back but as soon as I said i may agree with another person who had left and had decided not to come to one of those parties that is EXACTLY what she did turned cold and walked away from a very eager discussion that had previously found me just a delight!
my best friends wont speak to me unless they think I will discuss how twi was NEVER wrong just those that have of course left while the household was getting to the perfect clean state it is in now!!
They don't do anything without an ulterior motive. People in TWI don't know how to just have fun or get together just for the sake of getting together. Everything is a recruitment exercise.
I recently attended a graduation party. Should be just a party to celebrate the graduate, right? Nope. Not at all. Any non-TWI people were cornered and pestered by TWI people trying to get them to sign up for the class.
It seems they will do and say just about anything to get people to come back. What do you want to hear? The local leadership will say it, they just won't put it in writing for you. Those who have been involved before are the best targets to them because they've already been beaten down somewhat and are more likely to just follow without asking too many questions.
Wow, I hadn't thought of that one in a while. There had been at least two graduation parties in our area over the last few years before leaving and both were designated "outreach" events. What does this tell the kid who graduated?!
I'm sorry, but I think Shaz has it just about right.
The current BOT or BOD or whatever seems to be simply watching out for #1. They're into job security plain and simple. What other explanation could there be for their unbelievably cold and counterproductive actions?
Geeze, if they really wanted to have a "new dawn" at WayWorld, would it really be all that difficult? Make a dramatic and complete public apology for all of TWI's misdeeds over the years, have a huge open house event at HQ and invite the whole world over to have brats, sing songs, swim in the pond, have a sort of revised ROA and just BE NICE for a change. Have some gimp with a modicum of charisma redo the original PFAL class, revise the materials to purge the really over-the-top crap (Eve as a lesbian, etc.) and VOILA! new "grads" are rolling in, more ABS than they know what to do with, and a BRAVE NEW WAYWORLD is born.
There seems to be no shortage of credulous folks who will follow any religious/superstitious regimen if it's given a good presentation. Wayworld is certainly not beyond saving if there were anyone that wanted to. The fact that the BOD doesn't seem to be interested speaks volumes to me...
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Well, ya caught me with my pants down on that one, Goey!
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GarthP2000
Oldies,
Why would you liken what UncleHairy said to what Karl Marx would say. Are you trying to show this as an illustration of Karl Marx's statement of 'religion is the opiate of the masses'?
If so, do you say that to try to portray as Communist-wannabees those who think of TWI as an addictive drug?
Frankly, I can see his point from one angle, and no, I don't have this sudden urge to read Mao's little red book, either.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Garth...I was sorta wondering the same thing when I read oldies post...
Actually, he might even be correct, had I been referring to Christianity as a whole.
I have nothing at all against Christian fellowship...I believe that it's a good thing for folks to associate themselves with a spiritual support group...one that advises, councils, admonishes, teaches, etc., etc...it's when the "group" is manipulative and abusive (like twi), that I have problems with it.
Karl Marx (not to be confused with Groucho) was an atheist. I think perhaps oldies was confusing my position against twi, thinking that I was referring to all Christian groups.
;)-->
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shazdancer
I know someone who DID go back in. He was out in '90, subscribing to Sunday teaching tapes around 1999, and fully in and abs-ing by 2001.
Why do I know this? It is my ex-husband (2nd husband).
Perhaps after living with me, ANYBODY'D want to go back in!
;)-->
Regards,
Shaz
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JustThinking
Awww... Shaz, I think you're a sweetheart.
I too know a couple who went back in after:
1. Being told they were going full time corps (During LCM's Most Excellent Adventure)
2. Then told when they got to ROA that they were being dropped because they "weren't corps material." Whatever that means. No explanation.
3. Later being booted out for not living up to their corps calling. Really, no kidding.
They willingly asked to come back about 5 years later! Talk about your gluttons for punishment. As long as there are people who like to be abused there will be others willing to do it. I used to think TWI would fade away. Now I realize that there will always be at least a small group who want to be told what to do.
Where is Raf with that coffee? :-)
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oldiesman
Garth
No, I'm not saying Uncle Hairy is a communist wannabe. Just suggesting that Uncle Hairy's statements may be applied to all religions, not just twi, if one wishes to insult its participants. Just about all he said may be present in all religions if that's the way one looks at it. I've seen those things present in my older one (Roman Catholicism). For example, one may, if one wishes to be mean, make a comparison that a participant receiving communion religiously every week is like a junkie getting his fix. What would both be without it?
Not a big deal, just food for thought.
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Raf
I usually try to serve coffee to the new folks, but in this case...
For JT:
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Goey
Of the 34 GSer's who participated in this poll 21 knew of no one that they thought would return to TWI under any circumstances.
However, the 12 others that voted knew of at least 35 people that they believed would return to TWI under the right cirmunstances.
34 voted and these 34 knew a total of 35 folks that they believed would return to TWI under the right cicumstances. The ratio is close to 1:1.
So we could possibly project then, that if 100 people here voted they would know appromixately 100 people that might go back to TWI.
Let's asseume that TWI actually had 25,000 folks at one time. Let's also assume there there are only 5,000 left. If only 20 percent of those that left or got kicked out returned then that would be 4,000 people.
Assuming an average income of only 20,000 per year that come to 3,000 in ABS per person per year. That about 12 million in ABS.
Why doesn't TWI change? Is it more than just the money?
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Cherished Child
I can't think of a thing TWI could do that would pave the way for my return. However, I might see reason to "respect" them once again if they would publicly acknowledge (both to current and former believers), that terrible, dark sins were perpetrated against God's people by TWI leadership in the name of God, and that LCM is by no means the only one to blame for this. Furthermore, they would need to apologize for these transgressions---Never happen, I know...
But I might perhaps be an extreme example, in that the idea of attending any Christian gathering is enough to give me the willies. My trust of ANYONE claiming to "speak for God" may have been irretreivably broken.
But I believe I know of one or two folks, who, if the above would occur, might seriously consider returning on a trial basis. But undoubtedly, there are others who would return if they were just issued a personal apology and an invitation to return. I suspect that the BOD has knocked around this idea on more than one occassion, but are not really sure about implications of having to deal with people who have a history of hurt with TWI. I'm sure they would much rather deal with an entirely new crop of followers. That way, they could more easily "reinvent" the ministry. However, I doubt they could ever come to an agreement on the neccessary changes. They seem to be just foundering about, unsure of which way to go. There's no "visionary" left, or strong charismatic leader with the will to seriously rebuild what has fallen apart.
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shazdancer
Dear Goey,
I have a theory about that.
I think the BOD has plenty of money to keep their lifestyles going. That money was made in the heyday of TWI in the late 70's-early 80's, and is tied up in investments that earn dividends. (I know some of it was invested in gold back then.) But they can't divide the bulk of the money among themselves, because they are a not-for-profit organization. They must continue to keep up the appearance of following the Articles of Incorporation. They must continue to hold "jobs" within the organization, because they may not make a salary as merely a member of the BOD. (It's against the law.) But if they're too successful, their jobs will be that much harder. Too many people to coordinate!
So I think they continue to do as little as they think they can get away with in the eyes of the IRS. They must protect their positions at all costs from those who would "out" them, for they would have to fold the corporation and give the investments to another similar organization. (CES??!!)
They show the IRS what products they are producing to continue to woo converts. It's not THEIR fault that nobody comes!
I am amazed that they have been allowed to go on this long, with a huge carryover from year to year, and so few followers for all the staff and expenditures.
Regards,
Shaz
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sadie
This is only my opinion but I have to say that I would never return. I am a forgiving person but I would find it very hard to interact with the people who gave me up for a spiritually posssed person who turned my back on God because I left.
I believe it would be very hard for those who have been in TWI and listened and obeyed past and present leadership to change their way of thinking.
I can comfortably say, "thinking" because if a person truly studied and believed in God's word these beliefs and actions would not be a part of a true believer's actions toward others.
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Goey
Shaz,
Interesting theory.
I think that the BOD may be seeing that little 25 million investment nestegg dwindle. (I think the investments make up about 25 million)
As long as ABS levels are sufficient, they can keep the status quo and no have to touch the investments.
But if ABS levels drop to a point that they cannot cover extra expenses such as lawsuit settlements and attorney fees, along with their fixed expenses, then they will have either tap in to the investments, or do something else in order the keep the investments at current levels.
What could they do?
1. Sell off unneeded assets like Gunnison, other proprties, etc.
2. Demand more ABS from current followers.
3. Attract new followers and their associated ABS
They could possibly do a combination if these.
Hypothetically - if the Peelers were to win their suit that could be a big blow to TWI's pocketbook, not only in the initial cash loss, but in the fact that it would open the door up for other to get simlar awards, since the Peelers are not uniquie in what happened to them. There could be a domino effect.
My theory is that the BOD could be seeing the writing on the wall and seeing their little nest egg disolve away. Either in assets or in cash investments.
In the event of a severe enough ABS short fall where costs and expenses could not be covered by ABS plus interest on investments - they will have to either tap into the investment principle or sell off assets.
Fixed assets represent an expense to maintain so it would be more likely that assets will be sold off first - they did this before with Emporia and the Indiana campus.
It will be interesting to see what changes the BOD may make (if any) in the future. It would not surprise me at all if they began to make changes that will protect their investment nest egg that affords them their current lifestyles.
Of course I am projecting here, but it it seems to me the best way to protect the investments and assets would be to try and get more followers to foot the bills. So it would also not supprise me if we see TWI do more things and makes some changes to attract more followers.
On another note: After the IRS made it secret deal with Scientology, and the deal was exposed, I am not so sure that TWI has too much to fear there.
Goey
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WaywardWayfer
Goey, I don't know anything about the secret deal with the IRS and Scientology, but I don't think TWI has nearly the clout, pull or money to be anywhere near as intimidating or influential as Scientology.
I don't think that it will be easy for TWI to get any new people no matter what changes they make. They target middle and upper-middle class white folks. These are the primary users of the computer and they will check TWI out online and find out more than they need to know about why to stay away. TWI will not even get a chance to rebutt unless someone just wants to play with them.
The older crowds are pretty set in their ways and the younger crowds are pretty independent and wary of groups considered bad. But, then again, the cult list keeps growing and more and more people are coming out of cults - so someone's falling for the hooey we did.
Still, I don't think TWI has any charisma or atmosphere left to attract dung beetles much less people with money.
They already mention abundant sharing in 75% of their teachings and witnessing in about 85% (yes, they overlap). My vote is on them selling off more property to maintain the royal lifestyles they are used to.
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Goey
The IRS/Scientology deal set a precendent of sorts. It's not that TWI has any clout with the IRS. But if the IRS let's Scientology off the hook and then goes after others cults/religions for the same stuff then it is playing religious favorites. It got itslef in a jam and tied its own hands so to speak.
Here is a link on that - IRS/Scientology
I agree that TWI getting more follwers will be a problem, however this does not mean they won't try. This poll shows that quite a few folks would return to TWI under the right circumstances. If things get financally bad enough for TWI, I would be looking for some changes in that area anyway, even if they don't really work that well. Certain changes could at least keep a few folks from leaving - maybe.
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danteh1
For me, I wouldn't ever go back with the current leadership and thier a$$ ki**er, WayGB yes people still running to tell them everything you did or didn't do.
I know that sounds mean spirited. But with why I got out (volintarily on my part) the only thing I am waiting for is the return and having a bigger fellowship with GOD and Jesus, which would be a much sweeter and kinder fellowship with no backbiting and pressure at all.
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Trefor Heywood
For anyone to think about going back would definitely be the case of the dog and the vomit.
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papertrained
Go back to TWI now? No way.I get more intimate, REAL, godly fellowship talking to God and other outties and babes in Christ than I did any time EVER with a TWI person.
I recently went to a celebration that was hosted by an "innie." ( I have been mark and avoided over 6 years ago).I saw several other "innies" at this party who at one time were an inspiration to me.
What is sad is that this one person in particular, when I tried to talk about the goodness of God, and that God is worthy to be praised, turned like stone and walked away.
I got that kind of response to God's spoken Word by devote Baptists and other denominational christians. But from a TWI person? I was amazed that the coldness to the WOrd was so apparent. I was not surprised by it, just perplexed at the intensity of it.
Go back now? Not now, not ever, unless God specifically tells me, "Papertrained, its time to take your paints back to TWI and bring 'em some color."
"Everyday is a work of art."
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JustThinking
Papertrained,
It is likely the event was a cover to recruit newbies for a class. It would be obvious that you weren't going to write a check so why bother with you? Not to be harsh but that was the mindset.
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mj412
just thinking
your right man they are on people like flys on sticky tape.. to come back but as soon as I said i may agree with another person who had left and had decided not to come to one of those parties that is EXACTLY what she did turned cold and walked away from a very eager discussion that had previously found me just a delight!
my best friends wont speak to me unless they think I will discuss how twi was NEVER wrong just those that have of course left while the household was getting to the perfect clean state it is in now!!
hahahaha
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WaywardWayfer
They don't do anything without an ulterior motive. People in TWI don't know how to just have fun or get together just for the sake of getting together. Everything is a recruitment exercise.
I recently attended a graduation party. Should be just a party to celebrate the graduate, right? Nope. Not at all. Any non-TWI people were cornered and pestered by TWI people trying to get them to sign up for the class.
It seems they will do and say just about anything to get people to come back. What do you want to hear? The local leadership will say it, they just won't put it in writing for you. Those who have been involved before are the best targets to them because they've already been beaten down somewhat and are more likely to just follow without asking too many questions.
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JustThinking
Wayward,
Wow, I hadn't thought of that one in a while. There had been at least two graduation parties in our area over the last few years before leaving and both were designated "outreach" events. What does this tell the kid who graduated?!
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George Aar
I'm sorry, but I think Shaz has it just about right.
The current BOT or BOD or whatever seems to be simply watching out for #1. They're into job security plain and simple. What other explanation could there be for their unbelievably cold and counterproductive actions?
Geeze, if they really wanted to have a "new dawn" at WayWorld, would it really be all that difficult? Make a dramatic and complete public apology for all of TWI's misdeeds over the years, have a huge open house event at HQ and invite the whole world over to have brats, sing songs, swim in the pond, have a sort of revised ROA and just BE NICE for a change. Have some gimp with a modicum of charisma redo the original PFAL class, revise the materials to purge the really over-the-top crap (Eve as a lesbian, etc.) and VOILA! new "grads" are rolling in, more ABS than they know what to do with, and a BRAVE NEW WAYWORLD is born.
There seems to be no shortage of credulous folks who will follow any religious/superstitious regimen if it's given a good presentation. Wayworld is certainly not beyond saving if there were anyone that wanted to. The fact that the BOD doesn't seem to be interested speaks volumes to me...
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waterbuffalo
Just close your eyes and repeat after me:
"Religion is the opiate of the people"...
"Religion is the opiate of the people"...
"Religion is the opiate of the people"...
"Religion is the opiate of the people"...
"Religion is the opiate of the people"...
"Religion is the opiate of the people"...
"Religion is the opiate of the people"...
"Religion is the opiate of the people"...
"Religion is the opiate of the people"...
"Religion is the opiate of the people"...
"Religion is the opiate of the people"...
"Religion is the opiate of the people"...
"Religion is the opiate of the people"...
Wake up, Dorothy!!!!! It's time to go home.
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dmiller
Where is a "Star-Gate" when you need one?
:D-->
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