Pat, might oughtta have mentioned...that yeah....lcm is gone HOWEVER those who agreed/supported/covered for him ARE still in charge.
Also the classes and books he designed while under the *infuence* are being taught and held in regard...
Also...his ex wife and kiddoes STILL occupy the log mansion built by and for corpes ...that was stolen...dunno an awfull lotta unfinished business before your *ministry* can be considered *cleansed* and strong....
How bout YOU wafer getting *current* about the state of your damn ministry.
Building the trust of an innie will allow first a way to openly communicate with said innie and help them find an exit from *Zion*. Secondly it is a very good way to gather info and intel on what is really going on behind the walls of the fenced city.
A person’s life and heart are always more important than the *cause*.
Hmm - the ministry is stronger than ever because it has lost thousands of adherents and is fronted by a sychophantic nonentity without an original thought in her head.
You have to admire their optimism but not their self-deception.
quote: Everybody has a right to express opinions, thank God. But, try to keep it current. Thank you.
An innie said that??? Not in my opinion/experience. Private opinions were never allowed. There must be another "snow-job" happening there in Ohio, and whadda-ya-know, July is almost here.
Okay, so what's the point of sharing this letter? Did they give you permission to go spreading it around the internet? I know, no permission is needed but there are certain points of etiquette and ethics to be considered here. The letter shows us nothing we didn't already know about the mindset of an innie. Maybe paraphrasing it would be the way to go. And don't tell me that someone as educated and intelligent as you "accidentally" gave the name away.
It looks to me like another case of bad old loose cannon Pat showing off and shooting us all in the foot. Do you want to know what's going on in an innie's mind? I'm freshly out and can tell you all you want to know, as are others who were in until recently.
The Peeler lawsuit? To me now it's damning, to me a year ago it would have been the Adversary attacking - and especially attacking one of the foundations of "our" belief system, the tithe. I hope they win but there is nothing going on there that would have changed my mind a year or two ago.
I think a lot of people have been out for so long that they don't remember what the mindset of an innie is and how to approach one. Basically calling them poor deluded idiots on an internet forum in response to a sincere (private) letter only serves to prove what they already think: we are a bunch of copped out spirit-possessed or -influenced crybabies.
Maybe I should just say "Yeah, what Grizzy said," but it's crap like this that helped convince me for years that I was in the right place and what TWI had to say about the antis was right on. There was no real logical discussion or debate here, just an attack - why? Because someone only knew what information they were fed? Hell, we all have that problem in some area of our lives. Turn on your TV.
Ignorance is not a crime, and attacking the ignorance doesn't serve any purpose. Unless your purpose is to feel superior to someone else.
I would love to see TWI die a horrible, agonizing death. I don't see how anything but logic and reason will help that cause. Any little sign of weakness in the opposing camp's argument is all it takes to write off their whole case. Remember? I do.
Guess I should write something called "The mindset of a Way Believer" to help us get on the same page... stay tuned.
There ya go Jason...write and share about what you do know...it will be helpfull to many...remind us...you have a totally unique pov with totally different insights that are very important.
However, please don`t discount the fact that because all the stuff here doesn`t always personally serve your interest or need currently ....does not mean that there isn`t an importance in the sharing for someone somewher at a different point in their healing and life.
I`d suggest before you start throwing rocks at Pat...or any other poster ...considering that maybe he serves in a very important albeit different function in the aiding of the healing of *outies* or the aid of innies getting out...and the eventual destruction of twi.
We don`t always see the bigger picture nor the importance of each poster here or who`s and what need they are meeting....simply because you don`t see eye to eye ...doesn`t mean they don`t serve a very important funcion :-)
I consider it a measure of success that twi acknowledges us. I'm sure that they would prefer that the "innies" didn't even know of our existence, so that they could "bury" all their dirty laundry. Too much publicity and too many folks being vocal, has caused twi to change their tactics...they now are forced to deal with us publicly...they do this by painting us as the "enemy"...They now use us as "examples", no doubt, to illustrate how debbil spurts can turn you into a reprobate, railing against "God's true ministry".
The cult mindset needs an enemy...Twi is rampant with the "us verses them" mentality. It always was and, by necessity, it always will. The fact that so many people who were in the same "place" as they are now, completly eludes them. Folks who were faithful for twenty years or more...held high positions and were privy to inside information, are summarily dismissed as being reprobate...without any honest consideration or without any common sense being used to THINK for themselves.
As far as the current "up to date" condition of twi...They are "currently" a personality cult with no personality. They are a rudderless ship sailing the seas of misfortune, ignoring all warnings of impending storms. They have absolutely no choice but to find themselves another "charismatic" leader, in whom they can build up their "most holy faith" upon...or, they will be resigned to the trashpile of obscurity...even as followers of Charles Manson STILL hold secret meetings and hide in their little remote bubble of deception. Twi is a toothless entity that is of no consequence to society...except for those poor souls that are still involved. I do feel sorry for them.
Sorry, rascal, gotta disagree with you on this one.
Pat said...
quote:good point grizzy. corrections made. why the concern for an innie spouting the TWI superiority line?
Grizzy and Jason both responded to that, in their own way. There SHOULD be a concern for those still in, and we should try and look at things from their point of view. We will rescue no one if we don't have compassion. I save my vitriole for those who have perpetrated evil in the name of God and the organization.
Giving away the writer's name was absolutely crossing the line, as even Pat admitted. Quoting the letter and making rude remarks about the writer also crosses that line, IMHO, as it closes the door to meaningful dialog with that person. If Pat wants to spearhead a movement to bring down TWI, then I for one would like to see him display a higher moral standing than that displayed by TWI.
quote: And don't tell me that someone as educated and intelligent as you "accidentally" gave the name away.
Let's put this in perspective.
It was only a first name. No location, e-mail address etc.
quote:sincere (private) letter
Wrong again. The letter addressed the magazine's content and was not a confidential e-mail.
quote: It looks to me like another case of bad old loose cannon Pat showing off
An erroneous assumption based on what real facts?
quote:Giving away the writer's name was absolutely crossing the line, as even Pat admitted
I didn't say I crossed the line, because I didn't. I only revealed the person's first name. However, I honestly admitted that Grizzy had a point that even that small amount of info might be enough for the waygb.
quote: A person’s life and heart are always more important than the *cause*.
The ones that have written to me in confidence you will never know about. It is only the ones sending me the company line that I share about.
I am far from perfect and have made my share of mistakes in dealing with people. But here is how I might have responded, for what it's worth:
"Dear??,
Thank you for taking the time to email me. Obviously you have been looking at my site and perhaps other sites as well. I respect the fact that you are still involved in TWI. In fact I would like nothing better than to see TWI succeed as a true Christian organization and not one who abuses or takes advantage of its members. I only hope that you also have equal respect for some of us who either left TWI or were kicked out of TWI.
You should endeavor to be objective and find the true meaning of scriptures, not just the interpretations that you have been taught. In my opininion, because of all the damning evidence that has existed in TWI to this point, it is important to re-evaluate everything you have been taught from an objective point of view. The Internet is a good tool for this task. You can now find excellent viewpoints on many biblical subjects from a variety of good sound godly teachers.
Do you honestly believe God would limit himself to one man or one organization? I know all the counter arguments but we can discuss those in another email.
May I have permission to share your email and my response to it? If not, I would respect your privacy and no one need know that we are communicating.
I will consider your suggestions for my site and am always open for dialogue, especially from those who decide to remain in TWI. I, too, want to be objective.
I would enjoy staying in touch with you. If there is anything I can personally help you with you may contact me at any time or even call me.
I wish you and your family the best and truly hope you find happiness regardless of your involvement or non-involvement in TWI."
quote: Guess I should write something called "The mindset of a Way Believer" to help us get on the same page... stay tuned.
Jason -- please do. :)--> Would be interesting to hear "current" thinking.
Not that I would believe it, but I left them almost 20 years ago, and it always amazes me that they come up with "new revelations" that so contradict what was taught back in the 70's.
quote:If the e-mail is sent to: excultworld5@prowebtechs.com it will be regarded as public information. If it is sent to our editor Patrick Roberge it will be regarded as private/confidential at least initially (depending on content).
The policy on our website is quite clear. The e-mail we are discussing (except for the few critics of virtually everything I do) was one of several of like verbage I get all the time spouting the party line.
John,
Respectfully, I disagree with you approach because I have done it plenty in the past with far better results when they were confronted with facts between the eyes to shake them awake.
I consider e-mails of this type being discussed as spam, and not a real sincere desire to have honest communication.
E-Mail: We will respond to you within about a week or so unless you mark it urgent.
If the e-mail is sent to: excultworld5@prowebtechs.com it will be regarded as public information. If it is sent to our editor's private e-mail, it will be regarded as private/confidential at least initially (depending on content).
Hey shaz...no problem I wasn`t addressing the name dropping I was just addressing the issue that we...pat and jason included all have very important imput...just cause we don`t personally always *get* it doesn`t mean there is no merrit...
I encourage Jason to post so that we have yet another facet in our overall view point and understanding.
I know it's been addressed by others, but you really should have let this person know that LCM is still spiritually in charge of TWI. Even though he is no longer physically there, the teaching of his classes, the selling of his books and the continued adherence to his "present truth" have not changed. LCM is not old news - he is a current force in the doctrinal and practical operation of TWI today.
Ask him whether or not his leadership would approve of his contact with you, or his reading of your site.
Did you recommend that he also look at Grease Spot to see personal, current incidents from recently removed followers? I would. He needs to know that your site isn't the only one on the internet that reveals accurate information about the "real" TWI.
How right you are. Any Innie should take a look at all of the information that is available on 'TWI', current and past activities.
That way they will have a better knowledge base of what 'has' and 'is' going on with the leaders that are in power.
I know that the leadership wouldn't tell the 'Innies' anything other than what they want them to know, I.E. only the "Way's" spin on things. Anything other than that would be covered as supposidly "Copped Out" belivers by RR and the WGB crew.
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rascal
Pat, might oughtta have mentioned...that yeah....lcm is gone HOWEVER those who agreed/supported/covered for him ARE still in charge.
Also the classes and books he designed while under the *infuence* are being taught and held in regard...
Also...his ex wife and kiddoes STILL occupy the log mansion built by and for corpes ...that was stolen...dunno an awfull lotta unfinished business before your *ministry* can be considered *cleansed* and strong....
How bout YOU wafer getting *current* about the state of your damn ministry.
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Grizzy
initials and first name,
you working fir the WayGB or what????????
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pjroberge
good point grizzy. corrections made. why the concern for an innie spouting the TWI superiority line?
It would take a day to write the hundreds of pages to detail some of TWI deceptions heheheLink to comment
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Shellon
quote; .....and our ministry is stronger then ever
============================================
LOL ! uh huh yeah, sure. denial is such a comfy warm place.
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rascal
Good point pat...I don`t suppose ANYBODY has the time required to do a thorough job of that...lol sorry.
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Grizzy
Maybe because we were all there at one time.
Building the trust of an innie will allow first a way to openly communicate with said innie and help them find an exit from *Zion*. Secondly it is a very good way to gather info and intel on what is really going on behind the walls of the fenced city.
A person’s life and heart are always more important than the *cause*.
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Trefor Heywood
Hmm - the ministry is stronger than ever because it has lost thousands of adherents and is fronted by a sychophantic nonentity without an original thought in her head.
You have to admire their optimism but not their self-deception.
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dmiller
An innie said that??? Not in my opinion/experience. Private opinions were never allowed. There must be another "snow-job" happening there in Ohio, and whadda-ya-know, July is almost here.
How convienient.
-->
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Jason P
Okay, so what's the point of sharing this letter? Did they give you permission to go spreading it around the internet? I know, no permission is needed but there are certain points of etiquette and ethics to be considered here. The letter shows us nothing we didn't already know about the mindset of an innie. Maybe paraphrasing it would be the way to go. And don't tell me that someone as educated and intelligent as you "accidentally" gave the name away.
It looks to me like another case of bad old loose cannon Pat showing off and shooting us all in the foot. Do you want to know what's going on in an innie's mind? I'm freshly out and can tell you all you want to know, as are others who were in until recently.
The Peeler lawsuit? To me now it's damning, to me a year ago it would have been the Adversary attacking - and especially attacking one of the foundations of "our" belief system, the tithe. I hope they win but there is nothing going on there that would have changed my mind a year or two ago.
I think a lot of people have been out for so long that they don't remember what the mindset of an innie is and how to approach one. Basically calling them poor deluded idiots on an internet forum in response to a sincere (private) letter only serves to prove what they already think: we are a bunch of copped out spirit-possessed or -influenced crybabies.
Maybe I should just say "Yeah, what Grizzy said," but it's crap like this that helped convince me for years that I was in the right place and what TWI had to say about the antis was right on. There was no real logical discussion or debate here, just an attack - why? Because someone only knew what information they were fed? Hell, we all have that problem in some area of our lives. Turn on your TV.
Ignorance is not a crime, and attacking the ignorance doesn't serve any purpose. Unless your purpose is to feel superior to someone else.
I would love to see TWI die a horrible, agonizing death. I don't see how anything but logic and reason will help that cause. Any little sign of weakness in the opposing camp's argument is all it takes to write off their whole case. Remember? I do.
Guess I should write something called "The mindset of a Way Believer" to help us get on the same page... stay tuned.
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rascal
There ya go Jason...write and share about what you do know...it will be helpfull to many...remind us...you have a totally unique pov with totally different insights that are very important.
However, please don`t discount the fact that because all the stuff here doesn`t always personally serve your interest or need currently ....does not mean that there isn`t an importance in the sharing for someone somewher at a different point in their healing and life.
I`d suggest before you start throwing rocks at Pat...or any other poster ...considering that maybe he serves in a very important albeit different function in the aiding of the healing of *outies* or the aid of innies getting out...and the eventual destruction of twi.
We don`t always see the bigger picture nor the importance of each poster here or who`s and what need they are meeting....simply because you don`t see eye to eye ...doesn`t mean they don`t serve a very important funcion :-)
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GrouchoMarxJr
I consider it a measure of success that twi acknowledges us. I'm sure that they would prefer that the "innies" didn't even know of our existence, so that they could "bury" all their dirty laundry. Too much publicity and too many folks being vocal, has caused twi to change their tactics...they now are forced to deal with us publicly...they do this by painting us as the "enemy"...They now use us as "examples", no doubt, to illustrate how debbil spurts can turn you into a reprobate, railing against "God's true ministry".
The cult mindset needs an enemy...Twi is rampant with the "us verses them" mentality. It always was and, by necessity, it always will. The fact that so many people who were in the same "place" as they are now, completly eludes them. Folks who were faithful for twenty years or more...held high positions and were privy to inside information, are summarily dismissed as being reprobate...without any honest consideration or without any common sense being used to THINK for themselves.
As far as the current "up to date" condition of twi...They are "currently" a personality cult with no personality. They are a rudderless ship sailing the seas of misfortune, ignoring all warnings of impending storms. They have absolutely no choice but to find themselves another "charismatic" leader, in whom they can build up their "most holy faith" upon...or, they will be resigned to the trashpile of obscurity...even as followers of Charles Manson STILL hold secret meetings and hide in their little remote bubble of deception. Twi is a toothless entity that is of no consequence to society...except for those poor souls that are still involved. I do feel sorry for them.
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shazdancer
Sorry, rascal, gotta disagree with you on this one.
Pat said...
Grizzy and Jason both responded to that, in their own way. There SHOULD be a concern for those still in, and we should try and look at things from their point of view. We will rescue no one if we don't have compassion. I save my vitriole for those who have perpetrated evil in the name of God and the organization.Giving away the writer's name was absolutely crossing the line, as even Pat admitted. Quoting the letter and making rude remarks about the writer also crosses that line, IMHO, as it closes the door to meaningful dialog with that person. If Pat wants to spearhead a movement to bring down TWI, then I for one would like to see him display a higher moral standing than that displayed by TWI.
Regards,
Shaz
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pjroberge
Let's put this in perspective.
It was only a first name. No location, e-mail address etc.
Wrong again. The letter addressed the magazine's content and was not a confidential e-mail. An erroneous assumption based on what real facts? I didn't say I crossed the line, because I didn't. I only revealed the person's first name. However, I honestly admitted that Grizzy had a point that even that small amount of info might be enough for the waygb. The ones that have written to me in confidence you will never know about. It is only the ones sending me the company line that I share about.Link to comment
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igotout
I am far from perfect and have made my share of mistakes in dealing with people. But here is how I might have responded, for what it's worth:
"Dear??,
Thank you for taking the time to email me. Obviously you have been looking at my site and perhaps other sites as well. I respect the fact that you are still involved in TWI. In fact I would like nothing better than to see TWI succeed as a true Christian organization and not one who abuses or takes advantage of its members. I only hope that you also have equal respect for some of us who either left TWI or were kicked out of TWI.
You should endeavor to be objective and find the true meaning of scriptures, not just the interpretations that you have been taught. In my opininion, because of all the damning evidence that has existed in TWI to this point, it is important to re-evaluate everything you have been taught from an objective point of view. The Internet is a good tool for this task. You can now find excellent viewpoints on many biblical subjects from a variety of good sound godly teachers.
Do you honestly believe God would limit himself to one man or one organization? I know all the counter arguments but we can discuss those in another email.
May I have permission to share your email and my response to it? If not, I would respect your privacy and no one need know that we are communicating.
I will consider your suggestions for my site and am always open for dialogue, especially from those who decide to remain in TWI. I, too, want to be objective.
I would enjoy staying in touch with you. If there is anything I can personally help you with you may contact me at any time or even call me.
I wish you and your family the best and truly hope you find happiness regardless of your involvement or non-involvement in TWI."
Sincerely,
My email and phone number
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dmiller
Jason -- please do.
:)--> Would be interesting to hear "current" thinking.
Not that I would believe it, but I left them almost 20 years ago, and it always amazes me that they come up with "new revelations" that so contradict what was taught back in the 70's.
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pjroberge
John,
Respectfully, I disagree with you approach because I have done it plenty in the past with far better results when they were confronted with facts between the eyes to shake them awake.
I consider e-mails of this type being discussed as spam, and not a real sincere desire to have honest communication.
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LG
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pjroberge
E-Mail: We will respond to you within about a week or so unless you mark it urgent.
If the e-mail is sent to: excultworld5@prowebtechs.com it will be regarded as public information. If it is sent to our editor's private e-mail, it will be regarded as private/confidential at least initially (depending on content).
http://www.excultworld.com/columns/mission_statement.htm
Long Gone: Your criticism was not well investigated. hmmmm
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rascal
Hey shaz...no problem I wasn`t addressing the name dropping I was just addressing the issue that we...pat and jason included all have very important imput...just cause we don`t personally always *get* it doesn`t mean there is no merrit...
I encourage Jason to post so that we have yet another facet in our overall view point and understanding.
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LG
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Tom Strange
man! ... I must've missed something here... I better get myself in order...
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lindyhopper
That's right El StrangeO. Shape up or ship out.
and that goes for the rest of you too!
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Hope R.
I know it's been addressed by others, but you really should have let this person know that LCM is still spiritually in charge of TWI. Even though he is no longer physically there, the teaching of his classes, the selling of his books and the continued adherence to his "present truth" have not changed. LCM is not old news - he is a current force in the doctrinal and practical operation of TWI today.
Ask him whether or not his leadership would approve of his contact with you, or his reading of your site.
Did you recommend that he also look at Grease Spot to see personal, current incidents from recently removed followers? I would. He needs to know that your site isn't the only one on the internet that reveals accurate information about the "real" TWI.
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danteh1
Hope R.
How right you are. Any Innie should take a look at all of the information that is available on 'TWI', current and past activities.
That way they will have a better knowledge base of what 'has' and 'is' going on with the leaders that are in power.
I know that the leadership wouldn't tell the 'Innies' anything other than what they want them to know, I.E. only the "Way's" spin on things. Anything other than that would be covered as supposidly "Copped Out" belivers by RR and the WGB crew.
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