I gave TWI a few years after POP to fix/repair itself, but instead of repairing or getting better it got worse so I left in 1988.
Fast forward to today, and after reading and hearing of all the incredible amount of corruption and evil that has taken place in TWI, I seriously doubt it will ever fix itself.
Besides, if you want a TWI-Like organization there plenty of offshoots of former wayfers to choose from.
Sadly like Ex- I have to say No - because I was an almost complete way bran, just not a strong enough way brain to be permitted to stay. I had bought the lie that they were right and I was wrong when I was in and even after I left in 95-96. Even after that until '02 or so when I stared looking around on the internet and found my fellow greasespots I still accepted that lie.
To think that TWI could "fix" itself would seem to indicate that it was - at one time anyway - something worthwhile, when in reality, it was a shabby, $hitty, little carny-sideshow scam from the gitgo.
Had we all been a little older and more mature, I'm quite sure we'd have never fallen for the Vickster's tepid B.S.
Good question. It was more your perception. Did YOU think it had broken? If you just decided it was wrong/bad then the last choice would probably be your answer.
I was walking out the door when POP was walking in. Seeing what happened with that whole fiasco, there wasn't a chance (imo) that it would be "fixed", "mended", whatever.
Their literalist, "scientific precision" schtick is just so far away from the real content of the Bible that...
they ought to just all quit and join a real church
-one that may not be so 'magical' about the Bible - but does a h**l of a lot better at obeying it (that's where the magic really is - not in the 'noninterpretation' ha!) .
-one that has a structure that safeguards sheep from wolves instead of just handing out pre-filled-in bank deposit slips.
I don't think it's broken. It's a system of controling people, milking them of their money, time, even jobs and family in many cases. The folks at the top live the life they want to and until recently could have sex with almost any follower that they could badger into bed. Absent the sex they can still do almost anything they want. Of course they have a few more legal bills but they have the bucks to pay for it. This is exactly what the founder designed it for. It's not broken.
Oh, I'll admit that they SAY they do a whole bunch of cool stuff with the Bible but they don't. And when I found out that I'd believed what they SAID so much I didn't realize what they DID for a real long time, I felt hurt, angered, ashamed at myself, disappointed and all kinds of other emotions. And that's why I left.
But they don't seem to care about the people that leave. So I'd say it's working just as it was meant to.
Fix it? I have to agree that it's not broken. It is operating exactly as it was designed to operate. Con people, steal their time, money and allegience and then throw them away when they are no longer useful...nope, it's not broken...works just fine.
Up until the week I left I thought that it WAS being fixed and that I could help in the "healing." Just way too slowly for my tastes. Plenty of other people still in or only recently out believed the same thing. We saw what was wrong to one extent or another and saw sloooooow shifts away from much of it. I'm sure after I left there may have been horrified re-thinking of things I had been teaching at fellowships...
It takes the realization that it was dirty from the beginning to decide that it's a waste of time. And it takes the realization that NONE of the doctrine was going to be changed - all that's changing is the method of delivery - get the camel in the tent nose-first and verrrry gradually. The public doctrine is what I'm speaking about here - no one I've ever known ever thought for a second that adultery was right and would have been horrified at those abuses had we known.
Actually, if you believe the bible to be the word of god, the doctrine is so broken in nearly every respect that this is all that should matter in the end. The most flagrant abuses have ended or will end and the subtle, more dangerous manipulations are all that's left now. Will that ever be fixed? Only when HQ is smoking rubble being sold to Ringling Brothers.
I don't think it's broken. ...I'd say it's working just as it was meant to.
Pretty insightful, 3Cents. Thanks.
I stuck around a few months after I found out how badly things had gotten at the Rott..er, I mean the Root, because "God had his hand of blessing and protection on The Ministry". I was sure things would straighten themselves out.
Instead, "leaders" became more controlling and demanding. Not an atmosphere I could live within.
Where VPW was subtly and incrementally controlling (at least to non-Corps), LCM was in-your-face, "my way or the highway" demanding. I think most of the difference in "leadership" style came from VPW's experience with people from the early days ('50s and '60s). Most took the PFAL class and went their merry way, perhaps only occasionally supporting The Way. He knew he couldn't be too controlling, or he would end up alienating even his core followers (which occasionally happened anyway).
When the younger kids started following, he figured out he needed a mechanism to introduce a measure of control necessary to continue the necessary support (financial, emotional) without being so demanding that people would automatically see it for what is was - the enrichment of VPW. Hence, the Way Tree teaching and class, the takeover of the Way East and West, requiring a whole slew of VPW doctrinal classes (Renewed Mind, Christian Sex, etc) for his "Advanced" Class. And he probably understood that the young folks, more that the mature adults he had previously dealt with, would defer to his (seemingly) grandfatherly and godly-like authority.
LCM, not having VPW's tempering experiences, probably felt exalted, having his own ready-made cult following. He either didn't know or forgot that people will only take so much crap, no matter how indoctrinated they are, and then say "the hell with this" and leave. He didn't try to schmooze people at all, or try to appear gentle and comforting - it was just "root hog or die" all the time. A fun enthusiam for a while, but tiring and buffoonish in the long run. And with CG attempting to wrest control from him, he became even more of a control freak, making odd and obviously wrong pronouncements (The Word is over the world, crossing over into the promised land, all Corps living at the Way locations). It was only a matter of time until his downfall.
Now with Ms. Rivenbark, the control is still in place - more subtly, to be sure. The WayGB don't seem to have been disbanded, you need their permission to come on grounds (and 10-to-1 you won't get it), and maybe you can order books from their bookstore. I don't think too many Christian bookstores keep a list of who's qualified to read their books; I don't even think they're worried whether or not you're Christian.
The operative word in all three administrations is control - who's in control? Who's in charge? And the Way is set up so the BOD/BOT has the final say in all things doctrinal and practical. A long way from taking a class that, ostensibly, teaches its students how to read and understand the bible for themselves and a mission statement that includes the words "freely avails themselves".
It ain't broke - and it ain't fixable.
This all, of course, is my opinion and my observations from my association with TWI from 1971 to 1987. Thanks for listening.
It's kind of like the elephants that are trained from birth that they can't go anywhere with that big chain around their leg. Then when they're older they don't even try to get away when there is a piece of string tied around their leg. They know it's useless to try.
This is how the people in TWI are today. The controls are still in place and it's exactly as the people in control want it to be. It's not broken. Just ask RFR and DM.
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Outin88!
I gave TWI a few years after POP to fix/repair itself, but instead of repairing or getting better it got worse so I left in 1988.
Fast forward to today, and after reading and hearing of all the incredible amount of corruption and evil that has taken place in TWI, I seriously doubt it will ever fix itself.
Besides, if you want a TWI-Like organization there plenty of offshoots of former wayfers to choose from.
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excathedra
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ckeer
Sadly like Ex- I have to say No - because I was an almost complete way bran, just not a strong enough way brain to be permitted to stay. I had bought the lie that they were right and I was wrong when I was in and even after I left in 95-96. Even after that until '02 or so when I stared looking around on the internet and found my fellow greasespots I still accepted that lie.
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excathedra
ps. sorry my dear JT but to "fix" itself, do you have to believe it was right and then broken ? just wondering
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George Aar
Excie stole my thunder.
To think that TWI could "fix" itself would seem to indicate that it was - at one time anyway - something worthwhile, when in reality, it was a shabby, $hitty, little carny-sideshow scam from the gitgo.
Had we all been a little older and more mature, I'm quite sure we'd have never fallen for the Vickster's tepid B.S.
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JustThinking
Exie,
Good question. It was more your perception. Did YOU think it had broken? If you just decided it was wrong/bad then the last choice would probably be your answer.
JT
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dmiller
I was walking out the door when POP was walking in. Seeing what happened with that whole fiasco, there wasn't a chance (imo) that it would be "fixed", "mended", whatever.
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imbus
When I left TWI, I was to broken/wounded to think about ITS brokeness.
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WordWolf
In '89, I thought the "tip of the iceberg" was ALL the problems.
So, I thought that some of the top people could fix it.
About 1 month later, I got the letter from hq saying that the people I
thought would fix everything had just been fired for being evil.
That's when I knew it was almost hopeless, and made plans to exit.
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mj412
not for me.
Because I would not trust the organization again, in fact I now have trouble trusting anything with such dictates in my life.
But
I do think it will thrive and possibly be a group that does change people .
Greasespot may scream at the thought because I think many here want the way to go away from everywhere.
Im not one who is angry at twi, I really could be my story rocks on evil and being victimized.
yet time will and has gone bye and plenty of people still want answers and a righteous feeling to live above others in the name of Jesus christ.
The success of the off shoots of twi speak on the fact people are still drawn to groups that claim to be able to make a difference for the world.
I actualy know people who should go back into twi and be happy again.
but it can not be fixed for me .
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Juan Cruz
Their literalist, "scientific precision" schtick is just so far away from the real content of the Bible that...
they ought to just all quit and join a real church
-one that may not be so 'magical' about the Bible - but does a h**l of a lot better at obeying it (that's where the magic really is - not in the 'noninterpretation' ha!) .
-one that has a structure that safeguards sheep from wolves instead of just handing out pre-filled-in bank deposit slips.
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My3Cents
To fix itself, one has to assume it's broken.
I don't think it's broken. It's a system of controling people, milking them of their money, time, even jobs and family in many cases. The folks at the top live the life they want to and until recently could have sex with almost any follower that they could badger into bed. Absent the sex they can still do almost anything they want. Of course they have a few more legal bills but they have the bucks to pay for it. This is exactly what the founder designed it for. It's not broken.
Oh, I'll admit that they SAY they do a whole bunch of cool stuff with the Bible but they don't. And when I found out that I'd believed what they SAID so much I didn't realize what they DID for a real long time, I felt hurt, angered, ashamed at myself, disappointed and all kinds of other emotions. And that's why I left.
But they don't seem to care about the people that leave. So I'd say it's working just as it was meant to.
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Ham
Henry could fix the Ford, the Ford could never fix Henry (or itself).. unfortunately, they fired all the Henrys.
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JustThinking
Mr. H,
LMAO!
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pjroberge
You can't fix a house built on shifting landfill....
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Eagle
I stayed in longer even after seeing the abuse trying to "fix" it myself. It only drew me into the mess. I left.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Fix it? I have to agree that it's not broken. It is operating exactly as it was designed to operate. Con people, steal their time, money and allegience and then throw them away when they are no longer useful...nope, it's not broken...works just fine.
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Jason P
Up until the week I left I thought that it WAS being fixed and that I could help in the "healing." Just way too slowly for my tastes. Plenty of other people still in or only recently out believed the same thing. We saw what was wrong to one extent or another and saw sloooooow shifts away from much of it. I'm sure after I left there may have been horrified re-thinking of things I had been teaching at fellowships...
It takes the realization that it was dirty from the beginning to decide that it's a waste of time. And it takes the realization that NONE of the doctrine was going to be changed - all that's changing is the method of delivery - get the camel in the tent nose-first and verrrry gradually. The public doctrine is what I'm speaking about here - no one I've ever known ever thought for a second that adultery was right and would have been horrified at those abuses had we known.
Actually, if you believe the bible to be the word of god, the doctrine is so broken in nearly every respect that this is all that should matter in the end. The most flagrant abuses have ended or will end and the subtle, more dangerous manipulations are all that's left now. Will that ever be fixed? Only when HQ is smoking rubble being sold to Ringling Brothers.
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Kevlar2000
Pretty insightful, 3Cents. Thanks.
I stuck around a few months after I found out how badly things had gotten at the Rott..er, I mean the Root, because "God had his hand of blessing and protection on The Ministry". I was sure things would straighten themselves out.
Instead, "leaders" became more controlling and demanding. Not an atmosphere I could live within.
Where VPW was subtly and incrementally controlling (at least to non-Corps), LCM was in-your-face, "my way or the highway" demanding. I think most of the difference in "leadership" style came from VPW's experience with people from the early days ('50s and '60s). Most took the PFAL class and went their merry way, perhaps only occasionally supporting The Way. He knew he couldn't be too controlling, or he would end up alienating even his core followers (which occasionally happened anyway).
When the younger kids started following, he figured out he needed a mechanism to introduce a measure of control necessary to continue the necessary support (financial, emotional) without being so demanding that people would automatically see it for what is was - the enrichment of VPW. Hence, the Way Tree teaching and class, the takeover of the Way East and West, requiring a whole slew of VPW doctrinal classes (Renewed Mind, Christian Sex, etc) for his "Advanced" Class. And he probably understood that the young folks, more that the mature adults he had previously dealt with, would defer to his (seemingly) grandfatherly and godly-like authority.
LCM, not having VPW's tempering experiences, probably felt exalted, having his own ready-made cult following. He either didn't know or forgot that people will only take so much crap, no matter how indoctrinated they are, and then say "the hell with this" and leave. He didn't try to schmooze people at all, or try to appear gentle and comforting - it was just "root hog or die" all the time. A fun enthusiam for a while, but tiring and buffoonish in the long run. And with CG attempting to wrest control from him, he became even more of a control freak, making odd and obviously wrong pronouncements (The Word is over the world, crossing over into the promised land, all Corps living at the Way locations). It was only a matter of time until his downfall.
Now with Ms. Rivenbark, the control is still in place - more subtly, to be sure. The WayGB don't seem to have been disbanded, you need their permission to come on grounds (and 10-to-1 you won't get it), and maybe you can order books from their bookstore. I don't think too many Christian bookstores keep a list of who's qualified to read their books; I don't even think they're worried whether or not you're Christian.
The operative word in all three administrations is control - who's in control? Who's in charge? And the Way is set up so the BOD/BOT has the final say in all things doctrinal and practical. A long way from taking a class that, ostensibly, teaches its students how to read and understand the bible for themselves and a mission statement that includes the words "freely avails themselves".
It ain't broke - and it ain't fixable.
This all, of course, is my opinion and my observations from my association with TWI from 1971 to 1987. Thanks for listening.
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WaywardWayfer
Very good observations, Kevlar.
It's kind of like the elephants that are trained from birth that they can't go anywhere with that big chain around their leg. Then when they're older they don't even try to get away when there is a piece of string tied around their leg. They know it's useless to try.
This is how the people in TWI are today. The controls are still in place and it's exactly as the people in control want it to be. It's not broken. Just ask RFR and DM.
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