quote:You can't even get a catalog of the bookstore items unless you are an "innie." I tried and received a letter stating (more or less) that they only sell materials to the "faithful followers."
No, I do not still have the letter. I decided it didn't matter that much. Legal or not... they are refusing to sell to the outties. I have M & A friends who have received similar letters.
I think witnesses could be called and letters could be produced if TWI denied it.
In my mind announcing (even quietly) that the bookstore is now open to the public stronglt implies that it was not previously open.
Add to that the fact that TWI's website never mentions that it sells anything, offers no catalog of products, and the only means of contact is a P.O box for non-specific "information" - and it seems pretty clear that TWI was not attempting to sell anything via its website.
If it is that critical to the cases, TWI bookstore staff could made to testify under oath as to whether or not TWI's policy was to only sell books to their faithful.
quote: If it is that critical to the cases, TWI bookstore staff could made to testify under oath as to whether or not TWI's policy was to only sell books to their faithful.
I am sure that they will be as truthful as others have been in previous custody cases and the Peeler evidentiary hearings testimony ;)-->....
I feel for you, Pat. That's why I asked if there was objective proof, in writing. The letter sent to Janet would qualify. I hope others kept it.
Goey, you wrote:
quote:In my mind announcing (even quietly) that the bookstore is now open to the public stronglt implies that it was not previously open.
True, but where did they "announce" this? On tape? In writing? We agree, the word got out: but that wasn't my question. My question is, can it be objectively proven (in writing or on tape) that the bookstore was ever closed to the public?
These last few posts are interesting... I'm curious to see what they'll send to me... if they don't "lose" it...
Back in the 70's they would only sell PFAL books and collaterals to grads... the other stuff was fair game... looks like they changed that according to Radar's post, and she would know...
Objectively proved in writing? only Pat knows what he has on hand, and he would be wise to remain silent about that here.
Radar had a good suggestion. If you can't get a copy of a letter like DamitJanit mentioned, then subpoena the "guidance to limb records". Subpoena every damn thing TWI has. Find former staff willing to to provide affidavits.
It shouldn't be that difficult. Thought it may be expensive.
But do you guys believe that all innies will lie (under oath) to protect "the ministry"?.
You'd be surprised how the truth can come out when folks are under oath and confronted with contrary evidence.
If it's all you've got then it's all you've got. Got to at least take the shot.
It’s possible that TWI’s attorneys advised changing bookstore policies but I don’t think that is likely to significantly affect the trademark disputes, except possibly concerning one of the four categories in which TWI is seeking registration of THE WAY INTERNATIONAL (the only one having to do with retail bookstore services). Even concerning that one, I doubt a policy change would be critical, though it might be helpful to TWI.
If questioned about the bookstore policy in a lawsuit, I would expect TWI to tell the truth about the policy, but to explain it as an extension of the M&A policy, which is a protected religious practice. I would also expect TWI to say that the relaxing of the policy is part of a trend toward a “kinder, gentler†TWI, after having become too harsh and rigid under Martindale’s leadership. Would that be BS? Perhaps, but I don’t think it would be perjury and I don’t think it would have much effect on the outcome of a lawsuit.
The reason that martindale wanted the bookstore closed to outsiders is because if any of martindales "research publications" fell into the hands of any serious bible scholars, they would have laughed until they wet themselves.
Jerry Jacks from the TWI bookstore returned my phone call, and left a message on my machine, which contained the following:
quote:... Our ministry materials are not available to those whos status is "marked and avoid". Since that is not your status, you can place an order for bookstore materials. ...
I thought anyone who even left voluntarily was eventually M&A.
I was sent the magazine for several months after I left. Finally wrote and cancelled the subscription, which had been a 2-year subscription, and requested a refund of the remaining funds.
That was the last I heard from them. (Yes, I realize no secular magazine would issue a refund, but I think that's dishonest, too).
They can take their declaration of mark and avoid on me and put it where the sun don't shine!
I'm only concerned about being marked and avoided by the Lord Jesus Christ. He says he will never leave me nor forsake me. I like his company a lot better than hangin' with the BOD and their minions, oh but then I never was worthy to associate with any the "elite" of TWI.
I'm a happy camper without those guys. So maybe I'll just mark and avoid them! :)-->
I read your posting. May I get a copy of TWI's message and /or buy you a new tape for your machine?
Hey, I wonder if I am M&A hehehe
I guess you are. :D-->
I have the recording on my cell phone voicemail. If you tell me the best way to make a copy, I'll be happy to make the copy and send you the tape, or whatever works best.
maybe it is about not being orgainized but I went to Limb meeting a decade after being very seriously marked and avoided and It was never metioned.
I went to fellowship I went to picnics I went to limb meeting and not just one ALL of the differnt groups around in this area and no one ever said anything to me , and some of the same people clearly where around when I was marked and avoided and atteneded the Limb when it was announced so they knew I was me I was not being sneaky or anything. although mnay more had since left .
just last year I went to a way thing and was loved to death and I can and have at times telephoned the leaders. we often fight and agrue so I do not know how much longer that will fly cause I truly po a wife of the LC this last time and have not called since or plan to. but I was always welcomed or I thought . even after being marked and avoided publicly .
call your limb leader and ask if your marked and avoided and what your status is if you really want to know.
I never asked I just started going to a fellowship near my house. I spoke and introduced my self and I have the same name as always to the ordained clergy at the Limb meeting and I was asked if I was going to go to the rock a few months later and declined.
I wonder what my status is now at headquaters!
nah not really it would probably hurt my feelings if I called up and they said they didnt like me anymore or something.. this is a hoot something to think about. I know the other person involved in my scandal was also dammed and marked, I asked what that meant at the time and the LC said it "was much more serious trouble" I was never "dammed" by the way.
but he called up HQ and spoke to whoever they could and put him though the old hold on and switching people routine and he never got any answers.
also another couple where made fellowship coordinators and they had been gone at least five years and just returning back and the BC told me lots of people where coming back . I do not know if they had been marked and avoided tho ... or if they just went back. but then they did get M@A after I had left the second time I ran into them at an off shoot meeting.
this is just to funny only a ex twi person could possibly understand what I just wrote. lol but it is true. lol
I wonder what my "status" would be seeing as I left very early in the LCM era and was involved with The Way in GB who later followed Chris Geer en masse in any case.
I am not sure that there are any innies over here now or not.
But as I have absolutley no interest in obtaining anything from the TWI bookstore my interest is purely academic. :D-->
If anyone wants to know their actual status, call HQ and ask for permanent records. They maintain the "Book of Life" and have access to your information via computer. I wished they wwold just take me off their records completely.
quote: Wayfer Not said: "I wish they would just take me off their records completely."
Yeah - but then they wouldn't know you were a cop-out!!!
Now there's another topic... TWI Labels - not just Corps, Twig Leader, etc. - but descriptive terms used about people like "trouble-maker", "cop-out", "disciple". Hmmmm. Okay - I'll start it...
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Goey
Raf,
DamitJanet Posted a while back:
I think witnesses could be called and letters could be produced if TWI denied it.
In my mind announcing (even quietly) that the bookstore is now open to the public stronglt implies that it was not previously open.
Add to that the fact that TWI's website never mentions that it sells anything, offers no catalog of products, and the only means of contact is a P.O box for non-specific "information" - and it seems pretty clear that TWI was not attempting to sell anything via its website.
If it is that critical to the cases, TWI bookstore staff could made to testify under oath as to whether or not TWI's policy was to only sell books to their faithful.
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pjroberge
I am sure that they will be as truthful as others have been in previous custody cases and the Peeler evidentiary hearings testimony
;)-->....
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Raf
I feel for you, Pat. That's why I asked if there was objective proof, in writing. The letter sent to Janet would qualify. I hope others kept it.
Goey, you wrote:
True, but where did they "announce" this? On tape? In writing? We agree, the word got out: but that wasn't my question. My question is, can it be objectively proven (in writing or on tape) that the bookstore was ever closed to the public?
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Tom Strange
These last few posts are interesting... I'm curious to see what they'll send to me... if they don't "lose" it...
Back in the 70's they would only sell PFAL books and collaterals to grads... the other stuff was fair game... looks like they changed that according to Radar's post, and she would know...
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Goey
Objectively proved in writing? only Pat knows what he has on hand, and he would be wise to remain silent about that here.
Radar had a good suggestion. If you can't get a copy of a letter like DamitJanit mentioned, then subpoena the "guidance to limb records". Subpoena every damn thing TWI has. Find former staff willing to to provide affidavits.
It shouldn't be that difficult. Thought it may be expensive.
But do you guys believe that all innies will lie (under oath) to protect "the ministry"?.
You'd be surprised how the truth can come out when folks are under oath and confronted with contrary evidence.
If it's all you've got then it's all you've got. Got to at least take the shot.
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LG
It’s possible that TWI’s attorneys advised changing bookstore policies but I don’t think that is likely to significantly affect the trademark disputes, except possibly concerning one of the four categories in which TWI is seeking registration of THE WAY INTERNATIONAL (the only one having to do with retail bookstore services). Even concerning that one, I doubt a policy change would be critical, though it might be helpful to TWI.
If questioned about the bookstore policy in a lawsuit, I would expect TWI to tell the truth about the policy, but to explain it as an extension of the M&A policy, which is a protected religious practice. I would also expect TWI to say that the relaxing of the policy is part of a trend toward a “kinder, gentler†TWI, after having become too harsh and rigid under Martindale’s leadership. Would that be BS? Perhaps, but I don’t think it would be perjury and I don’t think it would have much effect on the outcome of a lawsuit.
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GrouchoMarxJr
The reason that martindale wanted the bookstore closed to outsiders is because if any of martindales "research publications" fell into the hands of any serious bible scholars, they would have laughed until they wet themselves.
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dmiller
BRB!!!
:P--> 
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gladtobeout
I received a letter from TWI telling that I could not buy any books because I did not attend their fellowships. I didn't keep the letter though.
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oldiesman
Jerry Jacks from the TWI bookstore returned my phone call, and left a message on my machine, which contained the following:
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Watered Garden
Lucky you!
I thought anyone who even left voluntarily was eventually M&A.
I was sent the magazine for several months after I left. Finally wrote and cancelled the subscription, which had been a 2-year subscription, and requested a refund of the remaining funds.
That was the last I heard from them. (Yes, I realize no secular magazine would issue a refund, but I think that's dishonest, too).
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oldiesman
Apparently not. I guess the next question would be, if M&A folks want to buy bookstore materials, how do they get themselves off of M&A status?
I'm not phoning them for that ... someone else please. ha!
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Watered Garden
They can take their declaration of mark and avoid on me and put it where the sun don't shine!
I'm only concerned about being marked and avoided by the Lord Jesus Christ. He says he will never leave me nor forsake me. I like his company a lot better than hangin' with the BOD and their minions, oh but then I never was worthy to associate with any the "elite" of TWI.
I'm a happy camper without those guys. So maybe I'll just mark and avoid them!
:)-->
WG
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pjroberge
Dear Oldiesman,
I read your posting. May I get a copy of TWI's message and /or buy you a new tape for your machine?
Hey, I wonder if I am M&A hehehe
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WaywardWayfer
We just need someone who is M&A to try to order something from the bookstore and ask for the response in writing.
I'm still in so I can't help.
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oldiesman
Pat
I guess you are.
:D-->
I have the recording on my cell phone voicemail. If you tell me the best way to make a copy, I'll be happy to make the copy and send you the tape, or whatever works best.
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mj412
maybe it is about not being orgainized but I went to Limb meeting a decade after being very seriously marked and avoided and It was never metioned.
I went to fellowship I went to picnics I went to limb meeting and not just one ALL of the differnt groups around in this area and no one ever said anything to me , and some of the same people clearly where around when I was marked and avoided and atteneded the Limb when it was announced so they knew I was me I was not being sneaky or anything. although mnay more had since left .
just last year I went to a way thing and was loved to death and I can and have at times telephoned the leaders. we often fight and agrue so I do not know how much longer that will fly cause I truly po a wife of the LC this last time and have not called since or plan to. but I was always welcomed or I thought . even after being marked and avoided publicly .
call your limb leader and ask if your marked and avoided and what your status is if you really want to know.
I never asked I just started going to a fellowship near my house. I spoke and introduced my self and I have the same name as always to the ordained clergy at the Limb meeting and I was asked if I was going to go to the rock a few months later and declined.
I wonder what my status is now at headquaters!
nah not really it would probably hurt my feelings if I called up and they said they didnt like me anymore or something.. this is a hoot something to think about. I know the other person involved in my scandal was also dammed and marked, I asked what that meant at the time and the LC said it "was much more serious trouble" I was never "dammed" by the way.
but he called up HQ and spoke to whoever they could and put him though the old hold on and switching people routine and he never got any answers.
I am to chicken to call myself. ha but true.
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mj412
also another couple where made fellowship coordinators and they had been gone at least five years and just returning back and the BC told me lots of people where coming back . I do not know if they had been marked and avoided tho ... or if they just went back. but then they did get M@A after I had left the second time I ran into them at an off shoot meeting.
this is just to funny only a ex twi person could possibly understand what I just wrote. lol but it is true. lol
life.
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Trefor Heywood
I wonder what my "status" would be seeing as I left very early in the LCM era and was involved with The Way in GB who later followed Chris Geer en masse in any case.
I am not sure that there are any innies over here now or not.
But as I have absolutley no interest in obtaining anything from the TWI bookstore my interest is purely academic.
:D-->
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Nottawayfer
If anyone wants to know their actual status, call HQ and ask for permanent records. They maintain the "Book of Life" and have access to your information via computer. I wished they wwold just take me off their records completely.
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WaywardWayfer
Just remember that they add to their notes that you called to ask.
;)-->
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Hope R.
Yeah - but then they wouldn't know you were a cop-out!!!
Now there's another topic... TWI Labels - not just Corps, Twig Leader, etc. - but descriptive terms used about people like "trouble-maker", "cop-out", "disciple". Hmmmm. Okay - I'll start it...
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Tom Strange
got the price list in the mail... if anybody is interested...
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JustThinking
Tom,
Do you see anything new?
JT
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