Exy, is your reluctance to embrace the Schoenheit paper at all related to the fact that is deals extensively with adultrey as a sin, but does not deal with its sometimes (often?) one sided, abusive nature???
VP died 5/85 and Passing of a Patriarch was first read to the Corps 4/86 and again at Corps Week that year. I'm not sure about the date of the Schoenheit paper. I don't think I heard anything about it until '87 or '88, but it might have been circulating for a while by then.
quote:After seeing this thread bantered about, I can't help but wonder, considering how evil our "teecher" was, how can anyone still cling to his beliefs?
Nice try Def, but Wierwille's evil in regards to adultery/sexual abuse is irrelevant to doctrines like the Trinity - which I suspect is your point here. Wierwille's past evil validates the Trinity about as much as the Inquisition invalitates it - none.
Discarding a non-Trinitarian view because Wierwille abused women makes about as much sense as replacing the tires on your car because the transmission is leaking.
However where the belief is self-serving it would certainly make suspect any teachings or beliefs that support or hide the self-serving actions of the "teecher". Things like adultery, tithing and the lock box come to mind.
Discarding a non-Trinitarian view because Wierwille abused women makes about as much sense as replacing the tires on your car because the transmission is leaking.
However where the belief is self-serving it would certainly make suspect any teachings or beliefs that support or hide the self-serving actions of the "teecher". Things like adultery, tithing and the lock box come to mind.
Why assume that Wierwille's anti-trinitarian (or anti-Jesus-as-God) views - at least in his case - were not (or had not become) "self-serving"?
Such teaching, added to the context of the dispensational view of the gospels "not addressed" to us, and of course, "the absent Christ", combined together, effectively cut Jesus and His teachings out from the picture, and enabled Wierwille to crown himself "lord".
Lifted... I know myseestorEx can speak for herself, but I don't see a "reluctance to embrace the Schoenheit paper"... I just see a reluctance to hero worship... although she did also comment on that later... now... back to your regularly scheduled thread...
You have a point, but only if you add the "absent Christ" , ultra-dispensationalism and a psycopath like Wierwille into the mix.
My point was that becausue Wierwille was an abuser in the area of sex, is not suficient of itself to disgard all that he taught as wrong.
I think that was the point that Def was trying to make - that since Wierwille was a bad guy folks should not believe anything that he taught. Since Def is a staunch Trintiarian and the majority of his posts are about that, it seemed likely to me that this was specifically what he was referring to. In a nutshell - the Trinity is true because Wierwille was bad. Of course a logical fallacy of major proportions.
Folowing that logic we should all throw away our Bibles and become athesits. (Some have)
You are dealing with a posible *reason* that VPW may have espoused a non-trinitarian belief which again says nothing about the validity of that belief itself. Trinitarinism, dispensationalism, etc, stand or fall on thier own merits.
A non-trinitarian view of God does not by necessity have to include ultradispensatinalism, make Christ "absent", negate his teachings, or exalt the one teaching such to the status of "lord".
Personally I don't think that Wierwille was intelligent enough or stupid enough to preconceive and implement a dispensational theological system that rejects the Trinity, makes Christ absent, and negates most of Jesus teachings for the sole purpose of being "lord" and able to control and abuse his subjects.
It seems more likely to me that he kinda fell into it. Then as he realized the power he had - he took advantage of it.
quote: handed it in to the research department in September of 1986.
Also that he had been on staff in the research dept for 6 years and belirved in the system when he handed it in- he was following their guidelines for research.
A non-trinitarian view of God does not by necessity have to include ultradispensatinalism, make Christ "absent", negate his teachings, or exalt the one teaching such to the status of "lord".
Personally I don't think that Wierwille was intelligent enough or stupid enough to preconceive and implement a dispensational theological system that rejects the Trinity, makes Christ absent, and negates most of Jesus teachings for the sole purpose of being "lord" and able to control and abuse his subjects.
Goey,
Agreed, though considering how effective these various elements orchestrated together toward eradicating Christ from a supposed Christian organization, might at least give one pause to wonder what "higher powers" were actually at work driving Wierwille, if still entertaining the existence of an unseen, spiritual realm.
But if Wierwille just "fell" upon this stuff, in the manner everything took shape, "the Devil" must be envious (lol).
Seems that the story was POOP popped and the bus driver was elevated above all and had issued a no new research proclamation.
Imagine that, a paper on adultery was *new* at HQ............. but it was that deliberate disobedience that caused the firing...... way to cover the material up, ignore the message and condemn the action......
But any way, after or during the fog, when the bus driver was sent packing, LCM claimed later they had offered some people fired during the gear jammers administration their jobs back.....................
When the Schoenheit Paper was published saying that sexual adultery was wrong (in every administration), the Way verbally and in writing, trashed Schoenheit telling people they SHOULD NOT EVEN READ THE PAPER BECAUSE IT COULD "UNDERMINE THE WORD OF GOD AND EVERYTHING THAT DR WIERWILLE HAS TAUGHT US AND READING IT COULD OPEN YOU UP TO DEVIL SPIRIT POSSESSION."
Now, how is that for motivation to keep Way believers from reading it? This was what people were told. Sadly, it worked and kept many people from reading the Schoenheit Paper. Furthermore, the Way NEVER TOLD PEOPLE WHAT THE TOPIC OF THE PAPER WAS ABOUT. They simply made people fear to EVEN READ IT!
Unless you experienced it, the pressure was unbelievable from other believers, especially corps, to discourage you from pursuing to read it. I told my corps branch coordinator that the Way was not going to tell me what I could and could not read.
I still have some of the copies of letters from people (mainly corps) who wrote asking questions of Martindale about sexual adultery. Depending on who you were, different answers were given to different people.
When anyone finally tracked down a copy of the Schoenheit Paper and read it, people who read it were shocked because all it said was sexual adultery was wrong. After reading it and telling other people, including corps, the topic of the paper and that they should read it, most people still would not read the Schoenheit Paper. In fact, after I read it, two other corps were sent to get me "spiritually right." Furthermore, I was "tarnished" because I had read it and was, according to Way leadership, under the influence of devil spirits.
Schoenheit was told by at least two different people at Way headquarters that if he published his research on adultery that HIS LIFE COULD BE IN DANGER..........real nice from an organization that is supposed to be teaching the Word of God.
When the second person told this to Schoenheit he became concerned and sent the paper to several other people he trusted and told them if anything should happen to him they should "blow the whistle on this thing."
Once presented to the research department, Walter C. went over it "with a fine tooth comb" and could only find grammatical errors. At one point, he pounded the table and said something close to "we don't need this paper to tell us adultery is wrong."
Also, another reason Way headquarters trashed the Schoenheit Paper was because they had made some statement that there was not to be any new research for a certain period of time and the work on this paper was completed during that time period. I brought this BS excuse up with a limb coordinator I respected on the other side of the country from where I was living at the time and he gave me the "new research" excuse. I replied "just because the research was not completed at the right time for you doesn't mean the research is wrong......chapter and verse please." He said he would get back to me and never did.
The paranoia running rampant at Way headquarters and throughout the Way was unbelievable. During this time, very few people did any real thinking for themselves, less took any action and the ones that did take action, the result was MANY MANY GOOD, LOVING, GODLY CHRISTIAN WOMEN AND MEN WHO TOOK A STAND AGAINST THE HYPOCRISY WERE FIRED, LIED ABOUT, KICKED OUT OR FORCED TO RESIGN..... WITH NO ONE TO TALK TO BECAUSE VERY FEW PEOPLE WOULD BELIEVE THEM (SOME WITH OVER 20 YEARS OF SERVICE IN THE WAY).
Many Way believers wanted the Way Ministry to make a public statement about the belief concerning adultery and provide scriptural support. The Way would not do it because they believed it was an acceptable practice and they did not want to deal with the thousands of believers who would want scriptural answers or the many who would leave the Way (which happened anyway) upon finding out the truth of what the leadership believed.
One last word........until you see it in print do not believe for one minute that the belief at the Way headquarters has changed concerning sexual adultery. Until they teach that sexual adultery is wrong with scripture support,in writing, THEY HAVE NOT CHANGED WHAT THEY BELIEVE. Their excuse will remain......the believers are not spiritually mature enough to receive it.
The Ways Corps motto was supposed to be, "It Is Written." We were encouraged in training to confront each other with The Word, in love -- "iron sharpeneth iron" and all that. But in practice, we quickly found out that the upper echelon was exempt from such confrontation, and any disagreement with leadership decisions could result in being fired, dropped from Corps, or labeled a possessed cop-out. "It Is Written" was not worth the paper it was printed on, since it was useless as an ultimate authority in TWI.
BTW, does anybody know if Cummins was a participant in the sex scandal? He certainly put the accuracy of The Word secondary to The Will of Wierwille.
Dear Goey,
I agree that error in one area of VPW's life does not necessarily mean error in every aspect of his doctrine; however, such an agregious error SHOULD cause one to re-examine EVERY aspect of his doctrine. Even Wierwille used to say, "Don't take my word for it. Check it out for yourself." Since greater minds than mine have spent endless years trying to reconcile the Trinity debate, I will content myself with my own beliefs at present, knowing that I only THINK I might be right, keeping an ear open to other reasonable views, and trusting that God looketh on the heart.
Was Wierwille smart enough to weave a complex web of doctrine that would convince people that adultery was okay? I think he was in part -- after all, his whole life was about building himself up with lies. He was an expert. He had to convince himself that he was entitled.
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Lifted Up
Exy if it is putting a MAN on a pedestal that causes you pain, then aren't you just wild about RFR???
:D-->
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excathedra
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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houseisarockin
Yes! Both she and Donna knew of their husbands activities.
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excathedra
can somebody tell me a brief chronology of events schoenheit paper wierwille's death feargeer's poop paper
i know i was there but.... you know my mind is going....
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JustThinking
House,
Is that first-hand knowledge on your part? Just making sure.
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houseisarockin
Yes! And don't mind you asking at all.
:)-->
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Lifted Up
Exy, is your reluctance to embrace the Schoenheit paper at all related to the fact that is deals extensively with adultrey as a sin, but does not deal with its sometimes (often?) one sided, abusive nature???
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def59
After seeing this thread bantered about, I can't help but wonder, considering how evil our "teecher" was, how can anyone still cling to his beliefs?
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Linda Z
Exsie:
VP died 5/85 and Passing of a Patriarch was first read to the Corps 4/86 and again at Corps Week that year. I'm not sure about the date of the Schoenheit paper. I don't think I heard anything about it until '87 or '88, but it might have been circulating for a while by then.
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Goey
Posted by Def59:
Nice try Def, but Wierwille's evil in regards to adultery/sexual abuse is irrelevant to doctrines like the Trinity - which I suspect is your point here. Wierwille's past evil validates the Trinity about as much as the Inquisition invalitates it - none.
Discarding a non-Trinitarian view because Wierwille abused women makes about as much sense as replacing the tires on your car because the transmission is leaking.
However where the belief is self-serving it would certainly make suspect any teachings or beliefs that support or hide the self-serving actions of the "teecher". Things like adultery, tithing and the lock box come to mind.
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TheInvisibleDan
Why assume that Wierwille's anti-trinitarian (or anti-Jesus-as-God) views - at least in his case - were not (or had not become) "self-serving"?
Such teaching, added to the context of the dispensational view of the gospels "not addressed" to us, and of course, "the absent Christ", combined together, effectively cut Jesus and His teachings out from the picture, and enabled Wierwille to crown himself "lord".
Danny
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Tom Strange
Lifted... I know myseestorEx can speak for herself, but I don't see a "reluctance to embrace the Schoenheit paper"... I just see a reluctance to hero worship... although she did also comment on that later... now... back to your regularly scheduled thread...
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My3Cents
I remember talking to Schoenheit about his research in the summer at ROA and Corps week, and I believe it was published in the fall after that.
I was out by end of 1986 so that would put it in summer/fall of 1986.
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Goey
Danny,
You have a point, but only if you add the "absent Christ" , ultra-dispensationalism and a psycopath like Wierwille into the mix.
My point was that becausue Wierwille was an abuser in the area of sex, is not suficient of itself to disgard all that he taught as wrong.
I think that was the point that Def was trying to make - that since Wierwille was a bad guy folks should not believe anything that he taught. Since Def is a staunch Trintiarian and the majority of his posts are about that, it seemed likely to me that this was specifically what he was referring to. In a nutshell - the Trinity is true because Wierwille was bad. Of course a logical fallacy of major proportions.
Folowing that logic we should all throw away our Bibles and become athesits. (Some have)
You are dealing with a posible *reason* that VPW may have espoused a non-trinitarian belief which again says nothing about the validity of that belief itself. Trinitarinism, dispensationalism, etc, stand or fall on thier own merits.
A non-trinitarian view of God does not by necessity have to include ultradispensatinalism, make Christ "absent", negate his teachings, or exalt the one teaching such to the status of "lord".
Personally I don't think that Wierwille was intelligent enough or stupid enough to preconceive and implement a dispensational theological system that rejects the Trinity, makes Christ absent, and negates most of Jesus teachings for the sole purpose of being "lord" and able to control and abuse his subjects.
It seems more likely to me that he kinda fell into it. Then as he realized the power he had - he took advantage of it.
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ckeer
Ex- I jus re-read Johns paper he says
Also that he had been on staff in the research dept for 6 years and belirved in the system when he handed it in- he was following their guidelines for research.
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TheInvisibleDan
Goey,
Agreed, though considering how effective these various elements orchestrated together toward eradicating Christ from a supposed Christian organization, might at least give one pause to wonder what "higher powers" were actually at work driving Wierwille, if still entertaining the existence of an unseen, spiritual realm.
But if Wierwille just "fell" upon this stuff, in the manner everything took shape, "the Devil" must be envious (lol).
Danny
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excathedra
so then schoenheit's paper was submitted to research dept. after vic's death and after geer's paper ?
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Grizzy
Seems that the story was POOP popped and the bus driver was elevated above all and had issued a no new research proclamation.
Imagine that, a paper on adultery was *new* at HQ............. but it was that deliberate disobedience that caused the firing...... way to cover the material up, ignore the message and condemn the action......
But any way, after or during the fog, when the bus driver was sent packing, LCM claimed later they had offered some people fired during the gear jammers administration their jobs back.....................
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excathedra
ahhhh yes it's coming back to me now, thank you
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Paradiseden
When the Schoenheit Paper was published saying that sexual adultery was wrong (in every administration), the Way verbally and in writing, trashed Schoenheit telling people they SHOULD NOT EVEN READ THE PAPER BECAUSE IT COULD "UNDERMINE THE WORD OF GOD AND EVERYTHING THAT DR WIERWILLE HAS TAUGHT US AND READING IT COULD OPEN YOU UP TO DEVIL SPIRIT POSSESSION."
Now, how is that for motivation to keep Way believers from reading it? This was what people were told. Sadly, it worked and kept many people from reading the Schoenheit Paper. Furthermore, the Way NEVER TOLD PEOPLE WHAT THE TOPIC OF THE PAPER WAS ABOUT. They simply made people fear to EVEN READ IT!
Unless you experienced it, the pressure was unbelievable from other believers, especially corps, to discourage you from pursuing to read it. I told my corps branch coordinator that the Way was not going to tell me what I could and could not read.
I still have some of the copies of letters from people (mainly corps) who wrote asking questions of Martindale about sexual adultery. Depending on who you were, different answers were given to different people.
When anyone finally tracked down a copy of the Schoenheit Paper and read it, people who read it were shocked because all it said was sexual adultery was wrong. After reading it and telling other people, including corps, the topic of the paper and that they should read it, most people still would not read the Schoenheit Paper. In fact, after I read it, two other corps were sent to get me "spiritually right." Furthermore, I was "tarnished" because I had read it and was, according to Way leadership, under the influence of devil spirits.
Schoenheit was told by at least two different people at Way headquarters that if he published his research on adultery that HIS LIFE COULD BE IN DANGER..........real nice from an organization that is supposed to be teaching the Word of God.
When the second person told this to Schoenheit he became concerned and sent the paper to several other people he trusted and told them if anything should happen to him they should "blow the whistle on this thing."
Once presented to the research department, Walter C. went over it "with a fine tooth comb" and could only find grammatical errors. At one point, he pounded the table and said something close to "we don't need this paper to tell us adultery is wrong."
Also, another reason Way headquarters trashed the Schoenheit Paper was because they had made some statement that there was not to be any new research for a certain period of time and the work on this paper was completed during that time period. I brought this BS excuse up with a limb coordinator I respected on the other side of the country from where I was living at the time and he gave me the "new research" excuse. I replied "just because the research was not completed at the right time for you doesn't mean the research is wrong......chapter and verse please." He said he would get back to me and never did.
The paranoia running rampant at Way headquarters and throughout the Way was unbelievable. During this time, very few people did any real thinking for themselves, less took any action and the ones that did take action, the result was MANY MANY GOOD, LOVING, GODLY CHRISTIAN WOMEN AND MEN WHO TOOK A STAND AGAINST THE HYPOCRISY WERE FIRED, LIED ABOUT, KICKED OUT OR FORCED TO RESIGN..... WITH NO ONE TO TALK TO BECAUSE VERY FEW PEOPLE WOULD BELIEVE THEM (SOME WITH OVER 20 YEARS OF SERVICE IN THE WAY).
Many Way believers wanted the Way Ministry to make a public statement about the belief concerning adultery and provide scriptural support. The Way would not do it because they believed it was an acceptable practice and they did not want to deal with the thousands of believers who would want scriptural answers or the many who would leave the Way (which happened anyway) upon finding out the truth of what the leadership believed.
One last word........until you see it in print do not believe for one minute that the belief at the Way headquarters has changed concerning sexual adultery. Until they teach that sexual adultery is wrong with scripture support,in writing, THEY HAVE NOT CHANGED WHAT THEY BELIEVE. Their excuse will remain......the believers are not spiritually mature enough to receive it.
** caps for emphasis not yelling.
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excathedra
thanks par
do you know who said this ?????? !!!!!!! ???????Link to comment
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excathedra
undermine everything veepee taught yup
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shazdancer
Dear Paradiseden,
The Ways Corps motto was supposed to be, "It Is Written." We were encouraged in training to confront each other with The Word, in love -- "iron sharpeneth iron" and all that. But in practice, we quickly found out that the upper echelon was exempt from such confrontation, and any disagreement with leadership decisions could result in being fired, dropped from Corps, or labeled a possessed cop-out. "It Is Written" was not worth the paper it was printed on, since it was useless as an ultimate authority in TWI.
BTW, does anybody know if Cummins was a participant in the sex scandal? He certainly put the accuracy of The Word secondary to The Will of Wierwille.
Dear Goey,
I agree that error in one area of VPW's life does not necessarily mean error in every aspect of his doctrine; however, such an agregious error SHOULD cause one to re-examine EVERY aspect of his doctrine. Even Wierwille used to say, "Don't take my word for it. Check it out for yourself." Since greater minds than mine have spent endless years trying to reconcile the Trinity debate, I will content myself with my own beliefs at present, knowing that I only THINK I might be right, keeping an ear open to other reasonable views, and trusting that God looketh on the heart.
Was Wierwille smart enough to weave a complex web of doctrine that would convince people that adultery was okay? I think he was in part -- after all, his whole life was about building himself up with lies. He was an expert. He had to convince himself that he was entitled.
Regards,
Shaz
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def59
Well Goey,
I think a man's life shows where someone is spiritually. I know from personal experience.
But we are to judge the spirits and see if they are true or not.
I think vpw's tendency to make Jesus and His words irrelevant a clear signal that vic's doctrines may leave much to be desired.
But to each his own.
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