I too did a brief stint with JWs in my pre-TWI days. I never really bought into the doctrine or became a member, though, I couldn't handle the idea of giving up birthday parties! :)-->
I was a kid living on my own in California, young and lonely. A very sweet couple witnessed to me. I liked them so I hung out for a while.
i feel like the luckiest person in the world to have my son. he'll be 10 in a few months. he has A LOT to say about EVERYTHING ha ! he is smart and funny, big ice hockey player (goalie) and also loves baseball (pitcher and catcher).
there's a picture section here and i put his pic there, i'll try to find the link.
I just woke up, so forgive me if I go back a few posts. I married late in life (41), so I shall have no children of my own; but it has nothing to do with TWI. I just enjoyed being single. My wife has four children, however, and they all live in the Houston area, so we spend a lot of time together. And my first grandchild turns 1 in about a week!
Welcome to the Grease spot cafe! Stay as long as you like.
Like most cults, twi was based on the charismatic personality of wierwille. After wierwille stepped down, he was replaced by a much "meaner" version of himself (martindale)...who alienated most of the followers by changing the doctrine and demanding unquestioned loyalty to him...things fell apart.
The actual doctrines which distinguished twi were stolen from various other groups, individuals, and writings. It was a "hybrid" belief system.
The different "administrations" taught by wierwille came from the writings of E.W. Bullinger. He called it "dispensationalism".
Gosh, for no other reason than you got me thinking about this again and I want to post this, a comparison of Mormons and TWI.......
Mormons have to believe that Joseph Smith was a modern day prophet and that the church had been lost and needed reinstated. They have to believe that God sent the angel Moroni and then the angel gave Joe the golden tablets. These unlocked the true gospel.
TWI was founded by V.P. Weirwille, to whom God spoke and promised He would teach him the Word like it had not been known for two thousand years if he would just teach others. Followers had to believe this and that VP had the keys to unlock the lost gospel. No golden plates, just snow on a gas pump and no 3 witnesses to the snow as Joe had with the plates.
Brigham Young became the second president of the Mormons, he was Joe’s right- hand man. Some thought Joe’s son should inherit the kingdom and they splintered off and formed the reorganized CJCOLDS. Brigham lead the rest to the promised land, to Zion and what we now know as Utah.
L.C. Martindale became the second president of TWI, after the death of VP his leadership was challenged. Many left and Martindale’s single biggest claim was he was the one ordained before God and all by VP. Then after a period of time, he claimed to lead the followers into a *spiritual* Promised Land of the Prevailing Word.
But numbers dwindled from VP’s death and the splits. The scandalous sexual exploits of Martindale and the founding president of TWI exploded into the limelight. The *cop-outs* as Martindale called those that left, were more successfully marketing and using VP’s works than TWI could. Others that moved on from VP’s materials were also being more successful in recruitments and followers.
After Martindale separated the followers from what he called old wineskins (VP materials) and had come up with his own new classes and format, his sexual escapades were exposed and he was de-frocked. Then he was reportedly ran off.
Mormon’s still hold to the beliefs concerning Joe, it is foundational to them. TWI has all but cut any ties with their first president. This includes the removal of the majority of the Wierwille family, including removing the founder’s wife to a nursing home.
The key belief that TWI promotes would have to be “The Word of God is the Will of God” as their founder taught. But now they are removed from him, his teachings and use his books in a limited manner. Martindales Class, called the Way of Abundance and Power is now taught by their leaders on the field live. They have quietly dubbed Martindale a controll freak while still practicing his hurtful practices.
I've been away from Greasespot for the past few weeks. I teach part-time at an interdenominational Christian classical high school, and this past week was finals. As well as wrapping up my own class, I helped my brother do simulated hostile juries for the seniors, and then I sat as an observer during the actual hostile juries. This is the first year we've run a thesis program for the entire senior class, so we found a LOT of bugs that are going to need to be worked out next year. Usually I post here fairly frquently.
I always find it instructive to discourse with people who have had similar experiences with other cults as we have had with TWI. I left TWI in '87. My wife left in '89 (we got married in '91). We left a TWI offshoot in '96. After that, we got together occassionally with a couple who had left the Worldwide Church of God, sometimes known as the Armstrong movement.
Many former followers of Armstrong, despite the doctrinal differences of our previous cults, have much in common with former followers of Wierwille, and from your tone, Refiner, much in common with former JWs.
Interesting talk of the next generation. I teach kids similar in age to those mentioned here, and I think they can be just priceless.
The Way recognizes that most churches have some truth as in you example of the Jehovah Witnesses and the trinity. ( Though they differ on some major points on that also.) But they believe they have the market cornered on all truth.
I like hearing about other ex cult members and other cults. I usually close the doors to JW's, but one time I listened and invited them in and liked their personalities and what they had to say. I also like reading their magasines from time to time. I also went once to their Kingdom Hall - okay, but I didn't believe, I was just curious. I also had a work-friend who was a JW - a very intelligent man, and non-pushy.
Key beliefs of TWI:
Studying the Word daily, Speaking In tongues, praying with understanding daily, fellowshipping with other believers whenever they have fellowship (about 4-5 times a week), witnessing and undershepherding others, teaching at fellowship, and abundantly sharing (tithing plus about 2%-5% more) will help you "grow with God". Just sitting around and going to fellowship is discouraged. You're also encouraged to live with other TWI believers, go on a one year witnessing program (WOW) and eventually become small fellowship leaders (twig leaders), and that is supposed to help you develop and be blessed, bless others and also earn eternal rewards. Lawd, what a mouthful!!!!Most people thought it was fun at first, felt blessed, felt they were growing and helping others.....then either people would fade out or get abused (which posts are on other threads here)
Oh, Refiner - if you are interested in many religions - you might want to check out Beliefnet.com. Though it doesn't have TWI and I don't think it has JW
quote:What key, unique belief does the Way hold that sets it apart as the "truth"?
Another key belief not yet mentioned is that of salvation by grace.
being converted=saved=born again
Once you're born again, or saved, or converted (via Romans 10:9) you are heaven bound and no power from hell can stop you from going. You have eternal life and will be in God's kingdom with Jesus Christ forever.
"Once you're born again, or saved, or converted (via Romans 10:9) you are heaven bound and no power from hell can stop you from going. You have eternal life and will be in God's kingdom with Jesus Christ forever."
Well how come then you have to go on WOW tours, tithe, attend 5 meetings and gawd knows what else a week if being "born again" is enough?
How do Wayers rationalize on that?
Is there greater heavenly reward for those who go the extra yards?
Sort of like Joe Smiths three tiered Mormon heaven?
I love Mormonism. Its amazing stuff. As youd probly know Joe Smith revealed that "Zion" would touch down/be built in Jackson County, Missouri.
Unfortunately Governor Boggs of Missouri thought otherwise and the Mormons got their butts run out of the state, indeed, out of the entire mid west at gun point.
After that Joe had to blame the congregations waywardness, lustfullness, and "lack of faith" for Gods refusal to fullfill His promises.
Still, far as I know, Independence Missouri is still the centrepoint of "zion",and all the other Mormon centres, congregations, etc are "Stakes" radiating out from the central point.
Another tidbit about Mormonism that isn't often discussed at church ( I assume).
Joseph Smith (after he had figured out that simple fortune telling and carny sideshow tricks weren't where the big money was) "translated" a book (I forget the name now) from ancient Egyptian heiroglyphs. This was years before the Rosetta stone. Anyway, after the Rosetta Stone discovery someone eventually went back to Joe's book and discovered he had made it up out of whole cloth.
Oh, and I can't vouch for other's motivations, but the reason that was pitched to me (and that I took to heart) for going "W.O.W.", taking all the interminable classes, and for going in the "Corps" (though I never actually went), was to "Go and grow with God".
Yes, just do this program and you will be able to have a much closer fellowship with the Almighty.
quote: well not quite exactly but essentially the belief is the more active one is in way programs and things, the more rewards earned.
It causes one to wonder... if you can gain greater rewards in heaven by doing extra works while on earth, then heaven cant be COMPLETELY "heavenly" for those who havent gone that extra mile while in the physical.
I wonder what the ones who put in greater effort get "beyond the veil"...
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Refiner
GSG said:
.."that ex cult victims "have no generations to continue their bloodline on."...
Perhaps Im confusing my own experience with that of "Way" former members.
As an ex JayDub I encounter many stories of people who spent all their time in the ministry
to the degree of foresaking even having children,(it being actively discouraged by the "borg") and having no generation to follow them.
Ive only got 1 child myself.
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Abigail
Hi Refiner,
I too did a brief stint with JWs in my pre-TWI days. I never really bought into the doctrine or became a member, though, I couldn't handle the idea of giving up birthday parties!
:)-->
I was a kid living on my own in California, young and lonely. A very sweet couple witnessed to me. I liked them so I hung out for a while.
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excathedra
I only have one child too
used to dream I would have a lot
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Refiner
In lucky to have him ExCath.
We had his 13th birthday party today.
He had 4 mates and they went rollerblading, then to the pics to see "The Day After", then I took them to a Pizza place for tea.
He is a fine looking figure of a young man when he has his school uniform on.
He sure has a lot to say about things.
I think weve got a good relationship.
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excathedra
i feel like the luckiest person in the world to have my son. he'll be 10 in a few months. he has A LOT to say about EVERYTHING ha ! he is smart and funny, big ice hockey player (goalie) and also loves baseball (pitcher and catcher).
there's a picture section here and i put his pic there, i'll try to find the link.
HAPPIEST BIRTHDAY TO YOUR SON !!!!!!!!
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excathedra
james, don't know if you answered this already, how did you find the greasespot cafe ?
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Refiner
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/22/72442/1.ashx
ExCath. I was reading the first post in the link provided, it lists a whole heap of ExCult member chat sites.
And here I am.
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excathedra
i don't see the list
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Refiner
http://www.alexa.com/browse/categories?catid=28407
Try this one ExCath
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excathedra
got it, thank you
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Refiner
Greasespot cafe is top of the list under the heading of Way International ExCath.
I looked at a lot of others first,I admit, but im real picky about Format.
I hate those formats where you have to individually open every post in a thread to be able to read it.
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GeorgeStGeorge
I just woke up, so forgive me if I go back a few posts. I married late in life (41), so I shall have no children of my own; but it has nothing to do with TWI. I just enjoyed being single. My wife has four children, however, and they all live in the Houston area, so we spend a lot of time together. And my first grandchild turns 1 in about a week!
George
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GrouchoMarxJr
Welcome to the Grease spot cafe! Stay as long as you like.
Like most cults, twi was based on the charismatic personality of wierwille. After wierwille stepped down, he was replaced by a much "meaner" version of himself (martindale)...who alienated most of the followers by changing the doctrine and demanding unquestioned loyalty to him...things fell apart.
The actual doctrines which distinguished twi were stolen from various other groups, individuals, and writings. It was a "hybrid" belief system.
The different "administrations" taught by wierwille came from the writings of E.W. Bullinger. He called it "dispensationalism".
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Grizzy
Ok Refiner,
Gosh, for no other reason than you got me thinking about this again and I want to post this, a comparison of Mormons and TWI.......
Mormons have to believe that Joseph Smith was a modern day prophet and that the church had been lost and needed reinstated. They have to believe that God sent the angel Moroni and then the angel gave Joe the golden tablets. These unlocked the true gospel.
TWI was founded by V.P. Weirwille, to whom God spoke and promised He would teach him the Word like it had not been known for two thousand years if he would just teach others. Followers had to believe this and that VP had the keys to unlock the lost gospel. No golden plates, just snow on a gas pump and no 3 witnesses to the snow as Joe had with the plates.
Brigham Young became the second president of the Mormons, he was Joe’s right- hand man. Some thought Joe’s son should inherit the kingdom and they splintered off and formed the reorganized CJCOLDS. Brigham lead the rest to the promised land, to Zion and what we now know as Utah.
L.C. Martindale became the second president of TWI, after the death of VP his leadership was challenged. Many left and Martindale’s single biggest claim was he was the one ordained before God and all by VP. Then after a period of time, he claimed to lead the followers into a *spiritual* Promised Land of the Prevailing Word.
But numbers dwindled from VP’s death and the splits. The scandalous sexual exploits of Martindale and the founding president of TWI exploded into the limelight. The *cop-outs* as Martindale called those that left, were more successfully marketing and using VP’s works than TWI could. Others that moved on from VP’s materials were also being more successful in recruitments and followers.
After Martindale separated the followers from what he called old wineskins (VP materials) and had come up with his own new classes and format, his sexual escapades were exposed and he was de-frocked. Then he was reportedly ran off.
Mormon’s still hold to the beliefs concerning Joe, it is foundational to them. TWI has all but cut any ties with their first president. This includes the removal of the majority of the Wierwille family, including removing the founder’s wife to a nursing home.
The key belief that TWI promotes would have to be “The Word of God is the Will of God” as their founder taught. But now they are removed from him, his teachings and use his books in a limited manner. Martindales Class, called the Way of Abundance and Power is now taught by their leaders on the field live. They have quietly dubbed Martindale a controll freak while still practicing his hurtful practices.
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Steve Lortz
Greetings, Refiner, and welcome!
I've been away from Greasespot for the past few weeks. I teach part-time at an interdenominational Christian classical high school, and this past week was finals. As well as wrapping up my own class, I helped my brother do simulated hostile juries for the seniors, and then I sat as an observer during the actual hostile juries. This is the first year we've run a thesis program for the entire senior class, so we found a LOT of bugs that are going to need to be worked out next year. Usually I post here fairly frquently.
I always find it instructive to discourse with people who have had similar experiences with other cults as we have had with TWI. I left TWI in '87. My wife left in '89 (we got married in '91). We left a TWI offshoot in '96. After that, we got together occassionally with a couple who had left the Worldwide Church of God, sometimes known as the Armstrong movement.
Many former followers of Armstrong, despite the doctrinal differences of our previous cults, have much in common with former followers of Wierwille, and from your tone, Refiner, much in common with former JWs.
Interesting talk of the next generation. I teach kids similar in age to those mentioned here, and I think they can be just priceless.
Love,
Steve
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coupcake
Refiner
The Way recognizes that most churches have some truth as in you example of the Jehovah Witnesses and the trinity. ( Though they differ on some major points on that also.) But they believe they have the market cornered on all truth.
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CircleGame
Hi Refiner and welcome
I like hearing about other ex cult members and other cults. I usually close the doors to JW's, but one time I listened and invited them in and liked their personalities and what they had to say. I also like reading their magasines from time to time. I also went once to their Kingdom Hall - okay, but I didn't believe, I was just curious. I also had a work-friend who was a JW - a very intelligent man, and non-pushy.
Key beliefs of TWI:
Studying the Word daily, Speaking In tongues, praying with understanding daily, fellowshipping with other believers whenever they have fellowship (about 4-5 times a week), witnessing and undershepherding others, teaching at fellowship, and abundantly sharing (tithing plus about 2%-5% more) will help you "grow with God". Just sitting around and going to fellowship is discouraged. You're also encouraged to live with other TWI believers, go on a one year witnessing program (WOW) and eventually become small fellowship leaders (twig leaders), and that is supposed to help you develop and be blessed, bless others and also earn eternal rewards. Lawd, what a mouthful!!!!Most people thought it was fun at first, felt blessed, felt they were growing and helping others.....then either people would fade out or get abused (which posts are on other threads here)
Oh, Refiner - if you are interested in many religions - you might want to check out Beliefnet.com. Though it doesn't have TWI and I don't think it has JW
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oldiesman
Refiner
Another key belief not yet mentioned is that of salvation by grace.
being converted=saved=born again
Once you're born again, or saved, or converted (via Romans 10:9) you are heaven bound and no power from hell can stop you from going. You have eternal life and will be in God's kingdom with Jesus Christ forever.
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Refiner
Oldiesman wrote:
"Once you're born again, or saved, or converted (via Romans 10:9) you are heaven bound and no power from hell can stop you from going. You have eternal life and will be in God's kingdom with Jesus Christ forever."
Well how come then you have to go on WOW tours, tithe, attend 5 meetings and gawd knows what else a week if being "born again" is enough?
How do Wayers rationalize on that?
Is there greater heavenly reward for those who go the extra yards?
Sort of like Joe Smiths three tiered Mormon heaven?
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oldiesman
yes, exactly...
well not quite exactly but essentially the belief is the more active one is in way programs and things, the more rewards earned.
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Refiner
Grizzy.
I love Mormonism. Its amazing stuff. As youd probly know Joe Smith revealed that "Zion" would touch down/be built in Jackson County, Missouri.
Unfortunately Governor Boggs of Missouri thought otherwise and the Mormons got their butts run out of the state, indeed, out of the entire mid west at gun point.
After that Joe had to blame the congregations waywardness, lustfullness, and "lack of faith" for Gods refusal to fullfill His promises.
Still, far as I know, Independence Missouri is still the centrepoint of "zion",and all the other Mormon centres, congregations, etc are "Stakes" radiating out from the central point.
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George Aar
Another tidbit about Mormonism that isn't often discussed at church ( I assume).
Joseph Smith (after he had figured out that simple fortune telling and carny sideshow tricks weren't where the big money was) "translated" a book (I forget the name now) from ancient Egyptian heiroglyphs. This was years before the Rosetta stone. Anyway, after the Rosetta Stone discovery someone eventually went back to Joe's book and discovered he had made it up out of whole cloth.
Gosh, who'd a thunk?
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George Aar
Oh, and I can't vouch for other's motivations, but the reason that was pitched to me (and that I took to heart) for going "W.O.W.", taking all the interminable classes, and for going in the "Corps" (though I never actually went), was to "Go and grow with God".
Yes, just do this program and you will be able to have a much closer fellowship with the Almighty.
Well, it made sense at the time.
REALLY! It did!
I guess you had to be there...
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Refiner
Oldisman wrote:
It causes one to wonder... if you can gain greater rewards in heaven by doing extra works while on earth, then heaven cant be COMPLETELY "heavenly" for those who havent gone that extra mile while in the physical.
I wonder what the ones who put in greater effort get "beyond the veil"...
a bigger mansion?
One seat closer to Jesus side?
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