Hey JT. I hate to refer to the JayDubs again, but i must tell you , after the charismatic and "loving" shepherd, the founder, Russell died, he was succeeded by a dogmatic and abrasive man called Rutherford who hijacked the movement.
Rutherford, over the course of 12 years drove 80 percent of the membership away from the church, then rebuilt it.
Ive read all the Watchtowers from the Rutherford era and know the reasonings used....so yes....Its a pattern Im familiar with.
quote: Finally, I and my new fiancee (we had been engaged about a month) were dragged into a kangaroo court, where I was chastened for pridefully leading songs in Twig that almost nobody knew.
That's a new one to me!!! Guess if they could not get you for the debt, ABS, etc., they had to think of something!!!--> -->
And I agree with oldies -- at first they left me, then I started seeing flaws in the doctrine taught -- so I said Praise The Lord!, and put even greater distance between us. :D--> :)--> :D-->
Refiner- VERY interesting parallels. As a matter of fact, my son is involved with a "disfellowshipped" JW and she is sadly knocking herself out to "prove herself worthy" of being accepted back. I find it very sad. I left twi early on for the escalating control tactics, for one thing. I am finding my experience with twi helps me to understand my son's girlfriend and her situation. I do not try to talk her out of anything, but there have been some times we are able to discuss some issues. It's almost eerie that I can see the hold they have on her due to my involvement with twi. Thanks for your input.
I was Marked in a scandal that the LC did not want known and I still thank God he did mark and avoid me. I was very sad at the time but it actualy changed my life for the better in many ways by forcing me to face life alone.
As I was graduating from college a twig began on my street, an old friend I knew from a decade before in the way.
I went with an open mind and again brought some friends with me ,
But I was different. It was the early 90's and my life was so great and I was so happy ... my children were older and able to see and hear the things going on and began to point blank ask me why and I had to come up with honest answers to explain some of the crazy reason the leaders where suffering so much in their personal family life.
I could easily tell a leader no I cant do that or no I do not want to take that class... and I felt zero guilt.
Most of all it was truly the witness of the local leadership and how very miserable their day by day livng appeared to be .
After being gone for a decade I could see they really had lost the ability to chose for their life and the amount of compromise and the cost it had on their life.
In short I pitied them , no longer did I believe they knew a better life or had something I would want for my own or my children.
I saw them panic really trip out over very small issues in life that every person faces.. everything was an attack from satan and they seemed almost proud of the fact they were miserable and complaining most of the time. not just the fellowship leaders the Limb leaders often appeared in a state of either frenzy or morbid depression .
When I was asked if I was going to attend the rock in 95 and I laughed as I said "NO!" because the thought of camping with my kids in 90 degree heat and the drive and the time was not a good choice for me and she seemed sure I was going to go straight to hell for it I knew we had little in common anymore and just never went back to read from the books with them again.
both of those families were then M@A and suffered a great deal in the next year and it saddened me greatly.
Both have since became ordained and one pastors a large church in another state and the other still struggles trying to find a group that accepts them and is involved in an offshoot.
I do not think all will recover when they leave or get thrown out.
We got tired of them sticking ther noses in our and our fellowships business. Our son ran away to get away from abusive leaders, which of course we were blamed for. So we left and took our whole twig with us, about 30 people. We had this biggest twig in the area and were growing everyday not because of TWI but because of the love my husband had for our people.
Boy did they ever loose a lot of ABS when we all left.
Now we have our life and sanity left and hubby is still running a fellowship on his own. So na na na na na na
We had a HFC who systematically picked an individual or family and rode them until they left or blew up and got booted.
We were dumb enough to believe his take on the hidden darkness in their lives for a couple of years. He was an old buddy of my husband's, from their early ministry days.
Time went by, and his scrutiny turned on us. As life in the Way goes, we had an ally--the limb coord was an old friend of my hubby's from his wow year. So things happened--tons of reproof, but not anything that escalated. However, since the HFC was always 'working' on something with us, we were kept in his fellowship, a forty minute cross town drive, while others were moved to fellowships near their homes. There was a fellowship within walking distance of our house.
The HFC disliked me, and would be particularly nasty to me if I went to HF by myself, which happened all the time because our kids were in kindergarten and first grade and couldn't be up late. But he was always nice to hubby.
Then our limb coordinator buddy got booted. The new Limb really disliked us--I was ill on a branch Sunday, and my husband was not able to work on the set up crew.Omygosh! What weakness in our lives!
Our bully of an HFC quickly saw the balance of power had changed and zeroed in. We took a three week vacation and regained our sanity. When we returned, the HFC had a new area for us to 'work' on under his 'spiritual'eyes. We walked away. A few weeks later we were mark and avoid. I think we spoke evil of the ministry or something.
I think that is what it takes a vacation away from the people who influence your life in as many areas as possible.
Ya know if a person doesnt go to church for a few weeks the congregation may call to see if they are ok but for the most part most are happy they can enjoy a time away with the family or other life stuff and welcome them back as old friends when they can return .
but not twi it is like so evil if you do not go, like all of a sudden your plotting the end of the world in a secret closet or something .. it became almost pure hysteria paranoid group that I could do nothing but laugh at .
I just do not want to LOVE someone with that much fear and doubt towards one another anymore.
Also the conversations where so dull and boring for me, I was tired of talking about nothing but twi the ministry and one another, I would try to talk about subjects I enjoyed in life and quickly realized most had forgotten how to enjoy anything at all in life of interest outside of the ministry and could not even have everyday conversations much less happines or joy in living without hooking on to what Ohio or the LC was doing.
in defense when could they have a life really , between classes and traveling and answering to leaders and trying to raise their children and working full time what time was left to have a life?
I dont want to highjack the thread WW, so perhaps just one question?...
Is the church high turnover, I mean, do people join and leave rapidly,say... within a handfull of years? Or are they in for decades?
I saw many people who took the foundational class and then didnt' see them for dust. They were the smart ones.
I am an example of someone involved for almost 20 years before leaving. I was on staff at headquarters for 5 years before leaving. Sometimes it takes a lot for a brainwashed person to see what is really there before they leave. I got tired of being controlled in my personal life. I got reproved for not consulting leadership in a decision I made to move across town. They threw the "safety in a multitude of counselors" verse at me. I told them I was perfectly fine with the decision I made and didn't need any counsel. Other things came up later, and I was very frustrated. But it took more and more crap before I woke up. I had drank wayyyyyy too much koolaid.
LCM getting fired was a great way for me to realize the MOG is a BS concept, and it showed me that the whole preface of the ministry was fallible. Once someone realizes that, then they are able to think for themselves again. I remember being afraid that I was thinking evil of leadership. Where did that idea come from? LCM I'm sure. We were trained to think leadership walked with God and we were to do what they told us.
I fell into sin. I was led and guided thru the chain links leading to "sin" by a girl at work.
Once I was in love with her, there was no way to stop the "sin".
My heart and mind were torn between church elders and family telling me to stop "sinning" and the longings of my own heart to continue on in the course of "sin".
Fortunately I followed my own will and desire....or Id likely be in there even yet.
i was at a corps meeting listening to a tape by chris feer saying the way corps of the usa were weak and horrible and had caused the ministry to fall or something like that
i "shared" and said he was right and i was sorry dah dah dah
then another guy there looked at me and said something like, "you're buying his bullcrap" ??!!??!!
it was like a bolt of lightning hit me
at this same meeting we were told it was "closed corporation" meeting. do not tell the people in our fellowships what's going on
when questioned by the fine people in our fellowships, i told them EVERYTHING that i knew was going on in "the ministry." just tired of lying to others and mostly to myself i guess
I never thought the Way was always right but I did for a time think they would fix the wrong when they saw it. It became appearant in the early 80's that was not so. When I disagreed with more doctrine than I agreed with and saw more behavior I disliked than approved of it was time to move on.
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Refiner
Hey JT. I hate to refer to the JayDubs again, but i must tell you , after the charismatic and "loving" shepherd, the founder, Russell died, he was succeeded by a dogmatic and abrasive man called Rutherford who hijacked the movement.
Rutherford, over the course of 12 years drove 80 percent of the membership away from the church, then rebuilt it.
Ive read all the Watchtowers from the Rutherford era and know the reasonings used....so yes....Its a pattern Im familiar with.
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WordWolf
Wow.
Amazing how that pattern repeats so closely.
Even down to the percentages.
It's almost enough to make you believe there were devils involved in the
evil actions of one, then went over and worked with the other.
If one were to be so bold as to suggest that, I mean.
"Dogmatic and abrasive." Yeah, that was our own little Angel Face, that
was.....
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dmiller
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dmiller
And I agree with oldies -- at first they left me, then I started seeing flaws in the doctrine taught -- so I said Praise The Lord!, and put even greater distance between us.
:D--> 
:)--> 
:D-->
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excathedra
refiner, after russell died, did any "offshoots" spring up ?
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way back in the 70s
Refiner- VERY interesting parallels. As a matter of fact, my son is involved with a "disfellowshipped" JW and she is sadly knocking herself out to "prove herself worthy" of being accepted back. I find it very sad. I left twi early on for the escalating control tactics, for one thing. I am finding my experience with twi helps me to understand my son's girlfriend and her situation. I do not try to talk her out of anything, but there have been some times we are able to discuss some issues. It's almost eerie that I can see the hold they have on her due to my involvement with twi. Thanks for your input.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Sorry, wrong thread!
George
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mj412
I was Marked in a scandal that the LC did not want known and I still thank God he did mark and avoid me. I was very sad at the time but it actualy changed my life for the better in many ways by forcing me to face life alone.
As I was graduating from college a twig began on my street, an old friend I knew from a decade before in the way.
I went with an open mind and again brought some friends with me ,
But I was different. It was the early 90's and my life was so great and I was so happy ... my children were older and able to see and hear the things going on and began to point blank ask me why and I had to come up with honest answers to explain some of the crazy reason the leaders where suffering so much in their personal family life.
I could easily tell a leader no I cant do that or no I do not want to take that class... and I felt zero guilt.
Most of all it was truly the witness of the local leadership and how very miserable their day by day livng appeared to be .
After being gone for a decade I could see they really had lost the ability to chose for their life and the amount of compromise and the cost it had on their life.
In short I pitied them , no longer did I believe they knew a better life or had something I would want for my own or my children.
I saw them panic really trip out over very small issues in life that every person faces.. everything was an attack from satan and they seemed almost proud of the fact they were miserable and complaining most of the time. not just the fellowship leaders the Limb leaders often appeared in a state of either frenzy or morbid depression .
When I was asked if I was going to attend the rock in 95 and I laughed as I said "NO!" because the thought of camping with my kids in 90 degree heat and the drive and the time was not a good choice for me and she seemed sure I was going to go straight to hell for it I knew we had little in common anymore and just never went back to read from the books with them again.
both of those families were then M@A and suffered a great deal in the next year and it saddened me greatly.
Both have since became ordained and one pastors a large church in another state and the other still struggles trying to find a group that accepts them and is involved in an offshoot.
I do not think all will recover when they leave or get thrown out.
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wyteduv58
We got tired of them sticking ther noses in our and our fellowships business. Our son ran away to get away from abusive leaders, which of course we were blamed for. So we left and took our whole twig with us, about 30 people. We had this biggest twig in the area and were growing everyday not because of TWI but because of the love my husband had for our people.
Boy did they ever loose a lot of ABS when we all left.
Now we have our life and sanity left and hubby is still running a fellowship on his own. So na na na na na na
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Bramble
We had a HFC who systematically picked an individual or family and rode them until they left or blew up and got booted.
We were dumb enough to believe his take on the hidden darkness in their lives for a couple of years. He was an old buddy of my husband's, from their early ministry days.
Time went by, and his scrutiny turned on us. As life in the Way goes, we had an ally--the limb coord was an old friend of my hubby's from his wow year. So things happened--tons of reproof, but not anything that escalated. However, since the HFC was always 'working' on something with us, we were kept in his fellowship, a forty minute cross town drive, while others were moved to fellowships near their homes. There was a fellowship within walking distance of our house.
The HFC disliked me, and would be particularly nasty to me if I went to HF by myself, which happened all the time because our kids were in kindergarten and first grade and couldn't be up late. But he was always nice to hubby.
Then our limb coordinator buddy got booted. The new Limb really disliked us--I was ill on a branch Sunday, and my husband was not able to work on the set up crew.Omygosh! What weakness in our lives!
Our bully of an HFC quickly saw the balance of power had changed and zeroed in. We took a three week vacation and regained our sanity. When we returned, the HFC had a new area for us to 'work' on under his 'spiritual'eyes. We walked away. A few weeks later we were mark and avoid. I think we spoke evil of the ministry or something.
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mj412
I think that is what it takes a vacation away from the people who influence your life in as many areas as possible.
Ya know if a person doesnt go to church for a few weeks the congregation may call to see if they are ok but for the most part most are happy they can enjoy a time away with the family or other life stuff and welcome them back as old friends when they can return .
but not twi it is like so evil if you do not go, like all of a sudden your plotting the end of the world in a secret closet or something .. it became almost pure hysteria paranoid group that I could do nothing but laugh at .
I just do not want to LOVE someone with that much fear and doubt towards one another anymore.
Also the conversations where so dull and boring for me, I was tired of talking about nothing but twi the ministry and one another, I would try to talk about subjects I enjoyed in life and quickly realized most had forgotten how to enjoy anything at all in life of interest outside of the ministry and could not even have everyday conversations much less happines or joy in living without hooking on to what Ohio or the LC was doing.
in defense when could they have a life really , between classes and traveling and answering to leaders and trying to raise their children and working full time what time was left to have a life?
much less enjoy it? it is sad really .
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Nottawayfer
I saw many people who took the foundational class and then didnt' see them for dust. They were the smart ones.
I am an example of someone involved for almost 20 years before leaving. I was on staff at headquarters for 5 years before leaving. Sometimes it takes a lot for a brainwashed person to see what is really there before they leave. I got tired of being controlled in my personal life. I got reproved for not consulting leadership in a decision I made to move across town. They threw the "safety in a multitude of counselors" verse at me. I told them I was perfectly fine with the decision I made and didn't need any counsel. Other things came up later, and I was very frustrated. But it took more and more crap before I woke up. I had drank wayyyyyy too much koolaid.
LCM getting fired was a great way for me to realize the MOG is a BS concept, and it showed me that the whole preface of the ministry was fallible. Once someone realizes that, then they are able to think for themselves again. I remember being afraid that I was thinking evil of leadership. Where did that idea come from? LCM I'm sure. We were trained to think leadership walked with God and we were to do what they told us.
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Refiner
I fell into sin. I was led and guided thru the chain links leading to "sin" by a girl at work.
Once I was in love with her, there was no way to stop the "sin".
My heart and mind were torn between church elders and family telling me to stop "sinning" and the longings of my own heart to continue on in the course of "sin".
Fortunately I followed my own will and desire....or Id likely be in there even yet.
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excathedra
i was at a corps meeting listening to a tape by chris feer saying the way corps of the usa were weak and horrible and had caused the ministry to fall or something like that
i "shared" and said he was right and i was sorry dah dah dah
then another guy there looked at me and said something like, "you're buying his bullcrap" ??!!??!!
it was like a bolt of lightning hit me
at this same meeting we were told it was "closed corporation" meeting. do not tell the people in our fellowships what's going on
when questioned by the fine people in our fellowships, i told them EVERYTHING that i knew was going on in "the ministry." just tired of lying to others and mostly to myself i guess
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OhMy!
We left because we couldn't and wouldn't put up with the hypocrisy any longer. Best decision we ever made!
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Raf
At some point the cafe will officially have more members than TWI.
OhYour! Welcome.
This is embarrassing but, I think I'm out of coffee. We have some Sanka in the back, if you'd settle for that.
Oh! Wait, you're in luck! Someone made an emergency run.
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Trefor Heywood
We already have more members than TWI Raf
:D-->
Remember there is no "official" TWI membership.
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coupcake
I never thought the Way was always right but I did for a time think they would fix the wrong when they saw it. It became appearant in the early 80's that was not so. When I disagreed with more doctrine than I agreed with and saw more behavior I disliked than approved of it was time to move on.
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