But whether a group is genuinely Christian, nominally Christian, non-Christian, anti-Christian, or incarnate devils is not an issue in this matter.
I have to mostly agree with Long Gone on this. Which group is more Christian or less Christian will have very little or no weight at all with the Court. The Court will make it's decisions based on it's interprepratation of the revelant laws and upon previous rulings by other courts. A good case ruling in regards to Trademarks and religion at can be found HERE
I seriously doubt that the Court will get inlvolved in Biblical/Christian doctrinal differences as who is more Christian, but TWI's practices may be fair game in certan areas in regards to credibility. However, in determining whether "The Way" is a generic term vs a descriptive one, the Court will look at how "religious adherants use or understand the phrase [The Way] as a unit" -- or how the (Te-Ta-Ma Truth Foundation — Family Of Uri, Inc NC.,v. World Church of the Creator.) So religous ideas may be discussed in the context of how folks may understand the meaning of a particular religious term.
TWI's Trademark for "The Way" is "incontestable" meaning it has been registered for over 5 years and they filed a 1065 affdavit. This gives them an advantage. In order to have an incontestable trademark canceled the other party will have to prove one of several things. (According to the Lanham Act)
1. Pre-existing rights in the mark. - Can one argue that all Christians have the right to use "The Way"? VPW seemd to think so based on the quote that WhiteDove posted. Did VPW's written comment give folks the right to use it. Do they havethe right anyway as a religious belief?
2. The mark has become generic or was generic at the outset. -- "A generic term is one that that refers to the genus of which the particular product is a species.” (469 U.S. at 194.) - Is the phrase, The Way, "descriptive" of TWI products (I dont't think so) or does "The Way" refer to a genus of products/services of which TWI's are but a species? Or neither?
3. The mark is functional. - "functional means that 'the exclusive use of which would put competitors at a significant non-reputation-related disadvantage". TWI unfortunately sees other Christian groups as a competitors and as a threat to their revenue. They certainly cannot argue their "reptutation" is a real issue. The question here then is, does TWI's exclusive use of "The Way" unfairly limit or prevent others in the same kind of business?
4. The mark has become abandoned. - "The Way" changed it's name to "The Way International" which could "possibly" be construed as abandonment of "The Way" mark - at least for the purpose of the identification of the organization which IMO would be to indentify the source of it's goods and services. What is the source? - "The Way" or "The Way International Inc"? -- TWI thought there was a need to make a distinction. Maybe there is an arguement here.
5. Registration of a mark was obtained through fraud. ( Very hard to prove - but possible)
....(a) The mark is immoral, deceptive, scandalous, disparaging or identifies a place other than the place of origin for wine or spirits. - I see a posibiility here, but it is a real long shot. Posibbly it could be argued considering TWI's polcies, practives and scandalous behavior, that TWI's use of "The Way" is deceptive, and/or is disparaging to those that religioulsly believe the "The Way" is a phrase that is reflective of the teachings of Jesus.
...(b) The mark compromises flags, insignias etc. of governmental entities. ) Not relevant
Anyway, the Lanham act not withstanding, the Courts have actually looked at a more things than just what is contained in the Lanham Act in regards to trademark cancellation, but these are the primary ones. There are greater laws - like those that protect freedom of speech and freedom of religion that may apply. Personally, I do not think that the Lanham act had religion in mind when it was drafted.
From what very little I understand about trademark laws…
One case might be close to “case on point” (I will let other people look it up if they want).
A couple years back…
WWF sued WWF for trademark infringement.
These 2 big groups had world wide name recognition. Both groups had very good lawyers, lots of money etc…
One group was “non profit” the other “for profit”.
The non profit World Wildlife Fund won the case and the World Wrestling Federation had to change it’s name, stop marketing under WWF (toys, clothes, collectibles, change internet domain names, etc.). This cost the company “BIG” bucks.
If I remember correctly, it came down to who actually registered first. Of course, this was in the court system for a long time.
Just a thought, for whatever it might be worth…
Also,
Courts don't usually want to get into any doctrin debates concerning religious groups.
It's that seperation of church and state thing. Courts deal with law not theology.
Is it me or is this statement in the Restraining Order hilarious?
quote: While the Defendant (the TWIt) claims to have a nationwide presence, it has acquired no good will or a secondary meaning in southern Illinois where the Plaintiff conducts its fund raising activities. Defendant’s letter, Exhibit A, claims damages and dilution of its marks, but the letter does not identify even one case of confusion. Defendant has not establishing a following for itself in southern Illinois and there is no reason to believe that anyone is confused.
They should require the TWIts to disclose exactly how many “members” they have in IL and how much moo-lah they have coming in from IL. Since TWI only has 3 members, they don’t get any revenue from the membership in IL and have no reason to even entertain the idea of a lawsuit for infringement on their income.
If you take the technicality of the term “members” out of the picture, I’m sure that TWIM has way more membership, support and revenue generating from their area than TWI. That is, unless LLP lives in the area with his vast income……..
quote:So in my mind there is a shot given that TWI
passed on the domain at an earlier time. While
this might not serve as a forfeiture of their
legal rights to the name ,they did pass which
for me is enough to pursue it in court ,(albeit
with a qualified attorney at your side).
I have never said or suggested otherwise. In fact, I agree with you wholeheartedly: on the moral merits, TWI had the opportunity to register the domain name and was specifically told to do so by a member advising them. The fact that they're whining about it now makes them a bunch of crybabies, in my eyes.
Does it matter that TWI operated in that area for years?
Rico M., last I heard about him he was doing press releases for HQ during WayDale days. He went to college in Carbondale and had quite a fellowship there. 93 WOWs were there with a local fellowship and their history might not start with but includes our own Matilda.
Our own Tom H. (Wonder where he has been) was in Mt. Vernon with quite a fellowship.
"Pat sought out TWIM. Pat informed TWIM of TWI’s trademark applications. He also provided TWIM with other information"
Just curious Pat, did you do this?
Not that it matters, just curious if these facts are accurate if you care to answer. I mean I guess it matters to some, but I am not sure why, just curious.
quote:"Pat sought out TWIM. Pat informed TWIM of TWI’s trademark applications. He also provided TWIM with other information"
Months ago someone posted a note about this ministry. I was curious and made contact as I network with many groups that are not TWI connected.
While reading TWI's lawsuit against me, I noted that TWI had filed applications for 4 new trademarks for The Way International.
Since TWI had done this, I felt morally obligated to inform this group because it directly affects them. This group decided to go ahead and file formal oppositions.
As far as sharing information, the research resouces of myself and the materials on Ex-Cultworld have been and will be available to anyone I feel has a legitimate need of them.
I was wondering, 'IF' TWIM (Ill.) happens to win the lawsuit over TWI (Ohio), would that mean that TWI (Ohio) have to drop thier name and maybe, just MAYBE have to go and tell thier masses thats left what happened that they have to change thier name??
It would also be interseting if TWIM caused TWI (Ohio) to have to completely close down.
wouldn't that be so sad to poor old Rosalie Rivenbarfff? :(--> NOT!!!!!!! :D--> :D--> :D--> :D-->
Purely wishful thinking dante. (Are you even supposed to be here today?)
TWIM is not suing to get TWI to change its name or cease its activities. It would take a real activist judge to order them to do such a thing, and even then it would be appealed so quickly the judge's head would spin right off.
Rosalie Rivenbark, speaking at a Sunday Service in the Auditorium (please suppply our own NC accent):
It is with great joy and thankfullness that I come before you today. We have a very exciting announcement!
As you know, our ministry was originally named Vesper Chimes and went through several name changes before becoming The Way International some years later.
Our ministry is devoted to God's Word and His Household, and cannot become unnaturally attached to wordly matters, such as names and titles.
It is with great joy that I announce that our ministry will henceforth be known as The Prevailing Household.
The other Directors and I know that this name change, which more accurately reflects our ministry in this day, time and hour, will herald forth greater blessings upon us...THE PREVAILING HOUSEHOLD....[cue music...song by "Prevailing Household Productions"]
At what point will you admit that the legal systyem is indeed taking seriously PR's actions and now apparently those of TWIM?
then Long Gone said:
At no point have I indicated otherwise.
>>
Oh really ? So what was all that "windmill"
talk about ?
You are the one who keeps talking about windmills. I used the word only once, almost two months ago. There was no implication that anyone’s actions weren’t taken seriously. To the contrary, I think that Pat will find, to his detriment, that the legal system takes his actions quite seriously.
The Internet domain name securing agency Register.com reported yesterday that some guy named Pat Something purchased 17 variations of the domain name "prevailinghousehold.com." Among the sites purchased were "theprevailinghousehold.com," "prevailinghousehold.org," "prevailinghousehold.net," "prevailinghousehold.bz," "theprevailinghouseholdformerlyknownasthewayinternational.com," and "rosalierosalieshesourman.wtf."
Mr. Something denied that The Prevailing Household, a wacky wannabe cult unknown to anyone but its current and former adherents, had any rights to the name under U.S. Trademark Law or common sense.
"The words 'prevailing' and 'household' are common words in the English language," Something said. "They don't have exclusive rights to it. I do not intend to cause any confusion between their business and the information I wish to provide."
Mr. Something said he intends to provide information about their business.
Mr. Thinksheknowsitall, a sometime critic of both Something and the Prevailing Word Inc., was approached for comment but ordered by both sides to shut up.
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Posted by Long Gone:
I have to mostly agree with Long Gone on this. Which group is more Christian or less Christian will have very little or no weight at all with the Court. The Court will make it's decisions based on it's interprepratation of the revelant laws and upon previous rulings by other courts. A good case ruling in regards to Trademarks and religion at can be found HERE
I seriously doubt that the Court will get inlvolved in Biblical/Christian doctrinal differences as who is more Christian, but TWI's practices may be fair game in certan areas in regards to credibility. However, in determining whether "The Way" is a generic term vs a descriptive one, the Court will look at how "religious adherants use or understand the phrase [The Way] as a unit" -- or how the (Te-Ta-Ma Truth Foundation — Family Of Uri, Inc NC.,v. World Church of the Creator.) So religous ideas may be discussed in the context of how folks may understand the meaning of a particular religious term.
TWI's Trademark for "The Way" is "incontestable" meaning it has been registered for over 5 years and they filed a 1065 affdavit. This gives them an advantage. In order to have an incontestable trademark canceled the other party will have to prove one of several things. (According to the Lanham Act)
1. Pre-existing rights in the mark. - Can one argue that all Christians have the right to use "The Way"? VPW seemd to think so based on the quote that WhiteDove posted. Did VPW's written comment give folks the right to use it. Do they havethe right anyway as a religious belief?
2. The mark has become generic or was generic at the outset. -- "A generic term is one that that refers to the genus of which the particular product is a species.” (469 U.S. at 194.) - Is the phrase, The Way, "descriptive" of TWI products (I dont't think so) or does "The Way" refer to a genus of products/services of which TWI's are but a species? Or neither?
3. The mark is functional. - "functional means that 'the exclusive use of which would put competitors at a significant non-reputation-related disadvantage". TWI unfortunately sees other Christian groups as a competitors and as a threat to their revenue. They certainly cannot argue their "reptutation" is a real issue. The question here then is, does TWI's exclusive use of "The Way" unfairly limit or prevent others in the same kind of business?
4. The mark has become abandoned. - "The Way" changed it's name to "The Way International" which could "possibly" be construed as abandonment of "The Way" mark - at least for the purpose of the identification of the organization which IMO would be to indentify the source of it's goods and services. What is the source? - "The Way" or "The Way International Inc"? -- TWI thought there was a need to make a distinction. Maybe there is an arguement here.
5. Registration of a mark was obtained through fraud. ( Very hard to prove - but possible)
6. A mark is violative of (a), (b) and/or © of §1052
....(a) The mark is immoral, deceptive, scandalous, disparaging or identifies a place other than the place of origin for wine or spirits. - I see a posibiility here, but it is a real long shot. Posibbly it could be argued considering TWI's polcies, practives and scandalous behavior, that TWI's use of "The Way" is deceptive, and/or is disparaging to those that religioulsly believe the "The Way" is a phrase that is reflective of the teachings of Jesus.
...(b) The mark compromises flags, insignias etc. of governmental entities. ) Not relevant
...© The mark is a name, portrait or signature of a living person or, during his widow's lifetime, a portrait of a deceased President. Hmmm...
7. A mark is used with the permission of the registrant in a way which misrepresents the source of goods and/or services. - Not revelant
8. The registrant lost control of or failed to properly use a certification mark. ("The Way" is not a certification mark.) Not relevant
Hmmm. 6© above is interesting. "The Way" is a name for Jesus, who millions of Christians believe is alive. Would anyone dare go down this road? Would the Court even entertain this argument? Kinda of doubt it.
Anyway, the Lanham act not withstanding, the Courts have actually looked at a more things than just what is contained in the Lanham Act in regards to trademark cancellation, but these are the primary ones. There are greater laws - like those that protect freedom of speech and freedom of religion that may apply. Personally, I do not think that the Lanham act had religion in mind when it was drafted.
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Zshot
From what very little I understand about trademark laws…
One case might be close to “case on point” (I will let other people look it up if they want).
A couple years back…
WWF sued WWF for trademark infringement.
These 2 big groups had world wide name recognition. Both groups had very good lawyers, lots of money etc…
One group was “non profit” the other “for profit”.
The non profit World Wildlife Fund won the case and the World Wrestling Federation had to change it’s name, stop marketing under WWF (toys, clothes, collectibles, change internet domain names, etc.). This cost the company “BIG” bucks.
If I remember correctly, it came down to who actually registered first. Of course, this was in the court system for a long time.
Just a thought, for whatever it might be worth…
Also,
Courts don't usually want to get into any doctrin debates concerning religious groups.
It's that seperation of church and state thing. Courts deal with law not theology.
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insurgent
Is it me or is this statement in the Restraining Order hilarious?
They should require the TWIts to disclose exactly how many “members” they have in IL and how much moo-lah they have coming in from IL. Since TWI only has 3 members, they don’t get any revenue from the membership in IL and have no reason to even entertain the idea of a lawsuit for infringement on their income.
If you take the technicality of the term “members” out of the picture, I’m sure that TWIM has way more membership, support and revenue generating from their area than TWI. That is, unless LLP lives in the area with his vast income……..
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Raf
Diazbro:
I have never said or suggested otherwise. In fact, I agree with you wholeheartedly: on the moral merits, TWI had the opportunity to register the domain name and was specifically told to do so by a member advising them. The fact that they're whining about it now makes them a bunch of crybabies, in my eyes.
Looking forward to the outcome of both trials.
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Grizzy
Does it matter that TWI operated in that area for years?
Rico M., last I heard about him he was doing press releases for HQ during WayDale days. He went to college in Carbondale and had quite a fellowship there. 93 WOWs were there with a local fellowship and their history might not start with but includes our own Matilda.
Our own Tom H. (Wonder where he has been) was in Mt. Vernon with quite a fellowship.
Maybe TWIM needs to know this.............
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Eagle
I think this site should be renamed "The Way of the International Cafe".
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WhiteDove
Eagle Greasespot is a great name.But if The Way would like to start their own cafe perhaps they would like this logo.
Complete with word over the world globe and Way tree.
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JustThinking
With their declining numbers, should it be:
The Way AlmostNational?
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outofdafog
Long gone says:
"Pat sought out TWIM. Pat informed TWIM of TWI’s trademark applications. He also provided TWIM with other information"
Just curious Pat, did you do this?
Not that it matters, just curious if these facts are accurate if you care to answer. I mean I guess it matters to some, but I am not sure why, just curious.
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WhiteDove
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excathedra
thewaytohell.org
my bad
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pjroberge
Outadafog asks:
Months ago someone posted a note about this ministry. I was curious and made contact as I network with many groups that are not TWI connected.While reading TWI's lawsuit against me, I noted that TWI had filed applications for 4 new trademarks for The Way International.
Since TWI had done this, I felt morally obligated to inform this group because it directly affects them. This group decided to go ahead and file formal oppositions.
As far as sharing information, the research resouces of myself and the materials on Ex-Cultworld have been and will be available to anyone I feel has a legitimate need of them.
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outofdafog
I thought that was probably how it went Pat. Keep up the good work!!
:)-->
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diazbro
quote:
diazbro said:
At what point will you admit that the legal systyem is indeed taking seriously PR's actions and now apparently those of TWIM?
then Long Gone said:
At no point have I indicated otherwise.
>>
Oh really ? So what was all that "windmill"
talk about ?
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danteh1
Pat
I was wondering, 'IF' TWIM (Ill.) happens to win the lawsuit over TWI (Ohio), would that mean that TWI (Ohio) have to drop thier name and maybe, just MAYBE have to go and tell thier masses thats left what happened that they have to change thier name??
It would also be interseting if TWIM caused TWI (Ohio) to have to completely close down.
wouldn't that be so sad to poor old Rosalie Rivenbarfff?
:(--> NOT!!!!!!! 
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
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Raf
Purely wishful thinking dante. (Are you even supposed to be here today?)
TWIM is not suing to get TWI to change its name or cease its activities. It would take a real activist judge to order them to do such a thing, and even then it would be appealed so quickly the judge's head would spin right off.
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Tom Strange
Raf... like one of them "rock-em sock-em robots"????
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Oakspear
Rosalie Rivenbark, speaking at a Sunday Service in the Auditorium (please suppply our own NC accent):
It is with great joy and thankfullness that I come before you today. We have a very exciting announcement!
As you know, our ministry was originally named Vesper Chimes and went through several name changes before becoming The Way International some years later.
Our ministry is devoted to God's Word and His Household, and cannot become unnaturally attached to wordly matters, such as names and titles.
It is with great joy that I announce that our ministry will henceforth be known as The Prevailing Household.
The other Directors and I know that this name change, which more accurately reflects our ministry in this day, time and hour, will herald forth greater blessings upon us...THE PREVAILING HOUSEHOLD....[cue music...song by "Prevailing Household Productions"]
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LG
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Raf
Dateline: Whathefudge, ME
June 1
The Internet domain name securing agency Register.com reported yesterday that some guy named Pat Something purchased 17 variations of the domain name "prevailinghousehold.com." Among the sites purchased were "theprevailinghousehold.com," "prevailinghousehold.org," "prevailinghousehold.net," "prevailinghousehold.bz," "theprevailinghouseholdformerlyknownasthewayinternational.com," and "rosalierosalieshesourman.wtf."
Mr. Something denied that The Prevailing Household, a wacky wannabe cult unknown to anyone but its current and former adherents, had any rights to the name under U.S. Trademark Law or common sense.
"The words 'prevailing' and 'household' are common words in the English language," Something said. "They don't have exclusive rights to it. I do not intend to cause any confusion between their business and the information I wish to provide."
Mr. Something said he intends to provide information about their business.
Mr. Thinksheknowsitall, a sometime critic of both Something and the Prevailing Word Inc., was approached for comment but ordered by both sides to shut up.
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LG
No comment.
:)-->
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Raf
LG: I was referring to myself. Sorry if you read that the wrong way, but it was not directed at you. Just an FYI.
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LG
I did think it referred to me, Raf, but I thought it was funny. I'll add a smiley to my post above.
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Raf
Good. I meant you the whole time.
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