quote:Hmmm. Pat seems to have a lot more now than he did a while back.
I'm watching with interest too.
Maybe he does - maybe not though I agree that it does appear that TWI will be spending time in court this Summer. I do know that laws and their application have to be challenged in order for them to evolve which is why the rote readings of the law that I've seen posted by various would be legal eagles don't mean much at least to me. You get what you pay for.
Its a lay view of the whole picture which is uninformed by the dynamics of the legal profession and the associated processes. Anybody can read a statute and post wha they think it means or what some court somewhere thought but unless you know the professional context then you are just offerring an opinion.
I think TWI wants to own the whole "the way"concept and this is their stab at getting some precedents under their belt to protect their investment in the name. The group that TWI picked on makes TWI look very bad in terms of human service and christian outreach. It will be interesting to see how TWI characterizes itself in comparison. I'm sure there will be massive embellishments about the WOW program being some type of missionary program ,etc.
It will also be interesting to see how TWI presents itself relative to society at large. They don't help anyone except members (and even that is debatable). That is there are no charity events , no fund raisers for cancer, no volunteer labor. Most any major christian group of which I know does at least some of these things. TWI doesn't and never has.
quote: I think TWI should leave these innocent Christian people alone. Let them keep picking on their own followers like they usually seem to do.
:D--> ;)--> :D-->
Well said!
diazbro,
quote: The group that TWI picked on makes TWI look very bad in terms of human service and christian outreach. It will be interesting to see how TWI characterizes itself in comparison. I'm sure there will be massive embellishments about the WOW program being some type of missionary program ,etc.
It will also be interesting to see how TWI presents itself relative to society at large. They don't help anyone except members. That is there are no charity events , no fund raisers for cancer, no volunteer labor. Most any major christian group of which I know does at least some of these things. TWI doesn't and never has
This will be very interesting. TWI is the most non-Christian organization I've ever heard of calling themselves Christian. (Well, technically, TWI doesn't claim to be Christian or religious or a church....so I guess it fits that they shouldn't be doing anything to really help people.)
quote:I don’t see TWI as having picked this fight.
Are you serious.
Yes, Pat, I am serious. I see you as having sought "brothers" to help you in your fight with TWI. I see TWIM as having joined the fight of its own volition, with no direct provocation from TWI. I see TWIM as having raised trademark issues with TWI when it filed its oppositions. I see TWI as having responded by defending its trademarks in precisely the way it should, according to law and normal legal procedure. (Don't confuse that with Christian procedure.)
TWI demands that the group not only cease using their so called trademark, but essentially tells the group to shut down. Change your name, give us your financial records etc. TWI did not have to make any demands beyond cease the "infringement". Oh, TWI picked the fight alright....
TWI instead threw their weight around like a school yard bully, but surprise! The kid they picked on is much stronger and has several brothers who will teach TWI a lesson in the courts.
Maybe. I think that there is a reasonable question about whether TWI's claim to THE WAY mark will stand up, though I suspect that it may. I think that TWI's claims to THE WAY INTERNATIONAL marks probably will stand up and that TWIM may very well be forced to change its name.
The Way International Ministries has 5 attorneys on their board. Ron the head guy runs a very well known and respected law firm. One of the lawyers is a Harvard grad and is a retired law professor.
None of which guarantees anything. TWI has competent attorneys with impressive credentials also. I can think of counter arguments to every point that TWIM raised in its complaint. I'm sure TWI's attorneys can do better. Which case will be more persuasive to the court remains to be seen.
So, I will look forward with amusement to the next round of "legal analysis" about the case 5 attorneys put together, and how you think they are wrong.....
I live to provide you with amusement, but I may fail you here. TWIM probably has enough sense not to discuss their case on a public forum, so I probably won't have much to say about it. I will, however, be watching with interest, and I may comment.
NO THEY DON'T! Are you kidding? They don't even help their own members! Any TWI member (with the possible exception of F.O.R.s {"Friends of Rosalie"---like her "gal pal" Donna!})that presents with a financial or physical need will swing in the breeze before they'll receive any aid from TWI! What they might get (like countless people in the past) is a whole lot of grief and condemnation about how and why they opened themselves to such an attack from "The Adversary". But real help? Fat chance!
Yes, Pat, I am serious. I see you as having sought "brothers" to help you in your fight with TWI. I see TWIM as having joined the fight of its own volition, with no direct provocation from TWI.
>>
Yea its real obvious that Pat is pulling strings over at TWIM and they ,including their legal team, are being led by him. Get real....
Yes, Pat, I am serious. I see you as having sought "brothers" to help you in your fight with TWI. I see TWIM as having joined the fight of its own volition, with no direct provocation from TWI.
>>
Yea its real obvious that Pat is pulling strings over at TWIM and they ,including their legal team, are being led by him. Get real....
Compare the words I put in boldface with your response.
If it were a question of which group is "more Christian," more charitable, better, nicer, or anything similar, I think most everybody would probably choose TWIM over TWI. But whether a group is genuinely Christian, nominally Christian, non-Christian, anti-Christian, or incarnate devils is not an issue in this matter.
I'm not siding with anyone. I just "call 'em as I see 'em."
I see TWI as a despicable outfit and TWIM as an apparently sincere, charitable, Christian group but I don't see that as having much to do with the issues of the case.
TWI only helps its members......................... a very true statement, that is once you remember that only BOT/BOD are members, everyone else is SOL!!!!!!!
A group that has never been associated with or had knowledge of TWI comes up with a very similar name. They may have a chance, but legally they formed and named years after the mark was legal and registered.
At least they are on a level playing field being real lawyers battling lawyers.
There has always been that one kid that was worse than the bullies............ the one that picks fights and had to get some one else to fight for them.............
Sorry PAt, but when I think of the THOusands of Dollars being spent arguing over who if anyone has the rights to "The WAY" I see red.
I mean there are so much more exciting things to do in life than quibble over such a petty detail. Yes, Yes, I know, The Devil is in the details, and He seems to be working overtime in Ohio and Illinois.
quote:TWI only helps its members......................... a very true statement, that is once you remember that only BOT/BOD are members, everyone else is SOL!!!!!!!
ahhhhh ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha good one laughing my head off plunk
Compare the words I put in boldface with your response.
>>
I did and the conclusion I still reach is that you feel PR somehow influenced TWIM to join "the fight" (he was seeking "brothers") and they willingly did.
Its like you are saying that TWIM launching its own legal battle against TWI is an extension of
PR's efforts. Oh and is TWIM "fighting windmills" also ? Are you going to try to
paint them as embitterred followers of TWI
who are looking for payback ?
At what point will you admit that the legal systyem is indeed taking seriously PR's
actions and now apparently those of TWIM ?
If people don't challenge laws then they remain unchanged. By your logic no one should attempt
to oppose whats written in some law book (which
is open to interpretation) on the basis that "its the law". The claims I see being made
by both PR and TWIM are legit on a common sense
basis. Legally ? I don't know - and nor do you
but the real lawyers are taking it seriously so its not the joke or misuse of the legal system that you are trying to make it out to be.
quote:but in my book, i hope rosie and donna and the gang lose
because i think they spend their followers' money unwisely
Me too. But "hope" and "expect" are two different things.
Diazbro,
I know you didn't address your post to me, but mind if I take a crack at it?
There are some common sense differences between Pat's claim and TWIM's.
TWIM arguably came to use the name "The Way International" without ever having heard of TWI and with no intent to lead anyone away from TWI. Pat cannot say the same thing.
Pat is not The Way International. TWI is. So is TWIM. TWI and TWIM have a reasonable fight: it's inarguable. Say what you want, Pat's fight with TWI is (if nothing else) arguable.
Pat is acting pro se and blabbing his strategy all over the Internet. TWIM is using lawyers and limiting its discussion to court filings.
Let's not make this thread about Pat, please. This thread is about TWIM v. TWI, and we should keep it on that subject.
I thought I wrote this before, but maybe I didn't post it:
My objection to Pat's fight was that Pat is not The Way International, but TWI is.
Well, TWIM is The Way International. So is TWI. Let them fight it out.
Pat,
quote:TWI did not have to make any demands beyond cease the "infringement". Oh, TWI picked the fight alright...
Pat is not The Way International. TWI is. So is TWIM. TWI and TWIM have a reasonable fight: it's inarguable. Say what you want, Pat's fight with TWI is (if nothing else) arguable.
>>
So in my mind there is a shot given that TWI
passed on the domain at an earlier time. While
this might not serve as a forfeiture of their
legal rights to the name ,they did pass which
for me is enough to pursue it in court ,(albeit
with a qualified attorney at your side).
The laws don't change until someone challenges them and I've seen people go to court with less going for them than that and come out on top.
>>
Let's not make this thread about Pat, please. This thread is about TWIM v. TWI, and we should keep it on that subject.
>>
Well its not about PR you are correct - But LG
is posting , in my mind, stuff that attempts to
link the two situations as if the TWIM lawsuit is *not* remarkably different from that initiated by PR. So I think its fair game to deal with this on that level.
You have drawn a distinction between the two
situations that I can appreciate. Though I don't sense this on LG's part who , in my
I didn’t even hint at anything remotely similar to what you wrote, “that Pat is pulling strings over at TWIM and they, including their legal team, are being led by him.” I clearly said that TWIM started the fight with TWI when it opposed TWI’s trademark applications. I further said that TWIM entered the fight of its own volition. In no way did I imply that it acted under Pat’s influence.
The only reason I even mentioned Pat is that I was addressing him, concerning his statement that TWI picked the fight, when facts known to him pretty clearly indicate otherwise. Pat previously said that he was seeking help from organizations with “the way” as part of their name. Pat sought out TWIM. Pat informed TWIM of TWI’s trademark applications. He also provided TWIM with other information. Based on information provided by Pat, TWIM (not Pat and not TWI) decided to engage in a trademark dispute with TWI, by filing oppositions to TWI’s trademark applications. TWI responded by sending a cease and desist letter to TWIM. TWIM responded to that by filing suit.
quote:At what point will you admit that the legal systyem is indeed taking seriously PR's actions and now apparently those of TWIM?
At no point have I indicated otherwise.
quote:…its not the joke or misuse of the legal system that you are trying to make it out to be.
I have never even hinted, much less implied, that it is a joke or a misuse of the legal system. I think that all of the legal actions related to disputes that have been mentioned here have been proper. That includes all trademark applications, all cease and desist letters, all oppositions to trademark applications, and all lawsuits. I have never claimed that anyone was misusing the legal system or in any way acting improperly, according to accepted legal procedure.
If you’re going to complain about what I post, please at least put forth the effort to understand it and get your facts straight.
"But whether a group is genuinely Christian, nominally Christian, non-Christian, anti-Christian, or incarnate devils is not an issue in this matter."
I think you are wrong on that point, Long Gone. TWI has a bad reputation. In fact they have a reputation for harming people in my opinion. Do not think that decision makers and judges will not be swayed by those and other matters in TWI.
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diazbro
dmiller said:
I'm watching with interest too.
Maybe he does - maybe not though I agree that it does appear that TWI will be spending time in court this Summer. I do know that laws and their application have to be challenged in order for them to evolve which is why the rote readings of the law that I've seen posted by various would be legal eagles don't mean much at least to me. You get what you pay for.
Its a lay view of the whole picture which is uninformed by the dynamics of the legal profession and the associated processes. Anybody can read a statute and post wha they think it means or what some court somewhere thought but unless you know the professional context then you are just offerring an opinion.
I think TWI wants to own the whole "the way"concept and this is their stab at getting some precedents under their belt to protect their investment in the name. The group that TWI picked on makes TWI look very bad in terms of human service and christian outreach. It will be interesting to see how TWI characterizes itself in comparison. I'm sure there will be massive embellishments about the WOW program being some type of missionary program ,etc.
It will also be interesting to see how TWI presents itself relative to society at large. They don't help anyone except members (and even that is debatable). That is there are no charity events , no fund raisers for cancer, no volunteer labor. Most any major christian group of which I know does at least some of these things. TWI doesn't and never has.
(correcting layout)
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WaywardWayfer
John,
Well said!
diazbro,
This will be very interesting. TWI is the most non-Christian organization I've ever heard of calling themselves Christian. (Well, technically, TWI doesn't claim to be Christian or religious or a church....so I guess it fits that they shouldn't be doing anything to really help people.)
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diazbro
Wayward Wayfer said:
TWI doesn't claim to be Christian or religious or a church....
>>
Yes interesting. They were at least at one time
claiming to be a "biblical teaching and research ministry" and didn't like to be associated with the "christian" label as it
made them seem like any other denomination.
But the real interesting thing is that if
they aren't representing themselves them as
being christian then what case would they
have for wanting to own the whole "the way"
concept and keep another group ,that isn't
ashamed to be called christian, from using
it ?
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LG
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Cherished Child
"They don't help anyone except members."
NO THEY DON'T! Are you kidding? They don't even help their own members! Any TWI member (with the possible exception of F.O.R.s {"Friends of Rosalie"---like her "gal pal" Donna!})that presents with a financial or physical need will swing in the breeze before they'll receive any aid from TWI! What they might get (like countless people in the past) is a whole lot of grief and condemnation about how and why they opened themselves to such an attack from "The Adversary". But real help? Fat chance!
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diazbro
Long Gone said:
Yes, Pat, I am serious. I see you as having sought "brothers" to help you in your fight with TWI. I see TWIM as having joined the fight of its own volition, with no direct provocation from TWI.
>>
Yea its real obvious that Pat is pulling strings over at TWIM and they ,including their legal team, are being led by him. Get real....
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diazbro
I edited my post to point out that the quality of the "help" is debatable. Guess you posted before I edited
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LG
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LG
If it were a question of which group is "more Christian," more charitable, better, nicer, or anything similar, I think most everybody would probably choose TWIM over TWI. But whether a group is genuinely Christian, nominally Christian, non-Christian, anti-Christian, or incarnate devils is not an issue in this matter.
I'm not siding with anyone. I just "call 'em as I see 'em."
I see TWI as a despicable outfit and TWIM as an apparently sincere, charitable, Christian group but I don't see that as having much to do with the issues of the case.
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excathedra
how long has TWIM had its name ? sorry if this has already been answered
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Grizzy
TWI only helps its members......................... a very true statement, that is once you remember that only BOT/BOD are members, everyone else is SOL!!!!!!!
A group that has never been associated with or had knowledge of TWI comes up with a very similar name. They may have a chance, but legally they formed and named years after the mark was legal and registered.
At least they are on a level playing field being real lawyers battling lawyers.
There has always been that one kid that was worse than the bullies............ the one that picks fights and had to get some one else to fight for them.............
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templelady
THis gets more ridiculous by the moment-
Sorry PAt, but when I think of the THOusands of Dollars being spent arguing over who if anyone has the rights to "The WAY" I see red.
I mean there are so much more exciting things to do in life than quibble over such a petty detail. Yes, Yes, I know, The Devil is in the details, and He seems to be working overtime in Ohio and Illinois.
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Raf
Since 2002.
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excathedra
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diazbro
Long Gone said:
Compare the words I put in boldface with your response.
>>
I did and the conclusion I still reach is that you feel PR somehow influenced TWIM to join "the fight" (he was seeking "brothers") and they willingly did.
Its like you are saying that TWIM launching its own legal battle against TWI is an extension of
PR's efforts. Oh and is TWIM "fighting windmills" also ? Are you going to try to
paint them as embitterred followers of TWI
who are looking for payback ?
At what point will you admit that the legal systyem is indeed taking seriously PR's
actions and now apparently those of TWIM ?
If people don't challenge laws then they remain unchanged. By your logic no one should attempt
to oppose whats written in some law book (which
is open to interpretation) on the basis that "its the law". The claims I see being made
by both PR and TWIM are legit on a common sense
basis. Legally ? I don't know - and nor do you
but the real lawyers are taking it seriously so its not the joke or misuse of the legal system that you are trying to make it out to be.
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excathedra
thanks, raf, i missed your reply first time 'round
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excathedra
i am so legally.... logically deficient
but in my book, i hope rosie and donna and the gang lose
because i think they spend their followers' money unwisely
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jardinero
Excie:
Legally, maybe. Logically? Hardly!
J.
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Raf
Me too. But "hope" and "expect" are two different things.
Diazbro,
I know you didn't address your post to me, but mind if I take a crack at it?
There are some common sense differences between Pat's claim and TWIM's.
TWIM arguably came to use the name "The Way International" without ever having heard of TWI and with no intent to lead anyone away from TWI. Pat cannot say the same thing.
Pat is not The Way International. TWI is. So is TWIM. TWI and TWIM have a reasonable fight: it's inarguable. Say what you want, Pat's fight with TWI is (if nothing else) arguable.
Pat is acting pro se and blabbing his strategy all over the Internet. TWIM is using lawyers and limiting its discussion to court filings.
Let's not make this thread about Pat, please. This thread is about TWIM v. TWI, and we should keep it on that subject.
I thought I wrote this before, but maybe I didn't post it:
My objection to Pat's fight was that Pat is not The Way International, but TWI is.
Well, TWIM is The Way International. So is TWI. Let them fight it out.
Pat,
See? We can agree on something!
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diazbro
Raf said:
Pat is not The Way International. TWI is. So is TWIM. TWI and TWIM have a reasonable fight: it's inarguable. Say what you want, Pat's fight with TWI is (if nothing else) arguable.
>>
So in my mind there is a shot given that TWI
passed on the domain at an earlier time. While
this might not serve as a forfeiture of their
legal rights to the name ,they did pass which
for me is enough to pursue it in court ,(albeit
with a qualified attorney at your side).
The laws don't change until someone challenges them and I've seen people go to court with less going for them than that and come out on top.
>>
Let's not make this thread about Pat, please. This thread is about TWIM v. TWI, and we should keep it on that subject.
>>
Well its not about PR you are correct - But LG
is posting , in my mind, stuff that attempts to
link the two situations as if the TWIM lawsuit is *not* remarkably different from that initiated by PR. So I think its fair game to deal with this on that level.
You have drawn a distinction between the two
situations that I can appreciate. Though I don't sense this on LG's part who , in my
opinion, wants to lump the two actions together
when they shouldn't be.
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LG
diazbro,
I didn’t even hint at anything remotely similar to what you wrote, “that Pat is pulling strings over at TWIM and they, including their legal team, are being led by him.” I clearly said that TWIM started the fight with TWI when it opposed TWI’s trademark applications. I further said that TWIM entered the fight of its own volition. In no way did I imply that it acted under Pat’s influence.
The only reason I even mentioned Pat is that I was addressing him, concerning his statement that TWI picked the fight, when facts known to him pretty clearly indicate otherwise. Pat previously said that he was seeking help from organizations with “the way” as part of their name. Pat sought out TWIM. Pat informed TWIM of TWI’s trademark applications. He also provided TWIM with other information. Based on information provided by Pat, TWIM (not Pat and not TWI) decided to engage in a trademark dispute with TWI, by filing oppositions to TWI’s trademark applications. TWI responded by sending a cease and desist letter to TWIM. TWIM responded to that by filing suit.
At no point have I indicated otherwise. I have never even hinted, much less implied, that it is a joke or a misuse of the legal system. I think that all of the legal actions related to disputes that have been mentioned here have been proper. That includes all trademark applications, all cease and desist letters, all oppositions to trademark applications, and all lawsuits. I have never claimed that anyone was misusing the legal system or in any way acting improperly, according to accepted legal procedure.If you’re going to complain about what I post, please at least put forth the effort to understand it and get your facts straight.
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igotout
"But whether a group is genuinely Christian, nominally Christian, non-Christian, anti-Christian, or incarnate devils is not an issue in this matter."
I think you are wrong on that point, Long Gone. TWI has a bad reputation. In fact they have a reputation for harming people in my opinion. Do not think that decision makers and judges will not be swayed by those and other matters in TWI.
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pjroberge
We keep talking about that it is not important if TWI espouses Christian values. I disagree.
TWI uses "The Way" which means Jesus Christ and the system of beliefs called Chrisitanity as their name.
If a restaurant's name is pizza heaven, there is an expectation that there is pizza on the menu.
If there is no pizza on the menu, then this is a case of fraud in advertising...
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Mark Sanguinetti
TWI in Ohio may find out the hard way just how weak their "The Way" trademark is.
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