quote:I also think his teaching on tithing in CSBP was false, but I don't label someone a false teacher based on some false teachings, what I do is weigh everything, true and false teachings. I think his teachings were more true than false.
Dude! do you 'hear' what you're saying? And the end of that statement magnifies the sin! Deliberately mixing true and false teachings so that those who trust and follow you is what it's all about! The whole 'crux of the biscuit' if you will....
(and thanks for taking the light hearted jab in the post above the way it was intended!)
I was taught that all Roman Catholicism (past, present and future) is satanic.
I was taught that gratuitous pornography is OK.
That crudeness is godliness.
That pimping for the man of God is righteous service.
That the kingdom of God needs its accomplishments to be exaggerated.
That community service is a waste of time.
That children should be hit with wooden spoons.
And teh number one destructive opoinion (toundermine Christain d iscipleshlip royally...) is......
That all charity begins and ends at home. “Home” meaning TWI.
All else is "second best." In other words, “don't give a minute to helping those in need.”
How's that for undermining the Bible's message !?!
But "he taught more true than false."
I don't think so.
Note how none of these were spelled out in public teachings. It's secretive. Part of LCM's downfall is that he really didn't understand how false teaching and secrecy go hand in hand.
How accurate 2 Peter 2 is. Aw Peepull, don't cha see it?!? It just sits there like a diamond!
quote:Please comment on the substantive denial of the Master I DID address.
What substantive denial? I don't equate twi's teaching about and adherence to the church epistles as denying the Master. No way, shape or form does that viewpoint deny Jesus, for the epistles exalt and honor Jesus repeatedly.
quote:Deliberately mixing true and false teachings so that those who trust and follow you is what it's all about! The whole 'crux of the biscuit' if you will....
We're getting into motive again. I don't know that he "deliberately" taught error to deliberately deceive. That's motive.
Does the Roman Catholic Church deliberately teach that Mary is the Mediatrix because they deliberately want to deceive people and turn them away from Jesus alone as the Mediator?
I take VP's erroneous teachings as what they are: error. I don't read any more into it, for I don't want to harbor a suspicious and accusative mind set that could be wrong.
1 : lacking legal or moral restraints; especially : disregarding sexual restraints
2 : marked by disregard for strict rules of correctness
KJV: pernicious” apoleia -genitive of destruction “way of destruction” but there is a strong textual variant with a stronger emphasis on “wanton or lascivious”.
Well Vic sure fits this, huh?
And he taught others to do so. And he never taught not to do so. And many were hurt badly (not the abundant life for victims..but Vic’s idea for himself of the abundant life, I guess).
It’s one thing to follow a destructive path for oneself but the false teachers the author refers to teach others also. It was a CULTURE of abusive lasciviousness in TWI.
The followers emulated the chief and were not discouraged from doing so. The Bible says plenty about sinners who teach others to follow their example and it ain’t good.
Desperate for followers he was. The more followers the better. "World over The World." All this..was it because Vic had such big heart for "Jesus and His love"?
Given that we'll all be judged, one can only hope his motivation for gathering such large numbers of followers had nothing to do with power, money (flowing to New Knoxville coffers), pride, or lust.
Lasciviousness does not just refer to sex. Behind the beautiful exterior of HQ (a “whited sepulcure”) was a crass materialism and “the pride of the eyes.”
2 Peter 2:3 And in their greed they will exploit you with deceptive words. Their condemnation, pronounced against them long ago, has not been idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
Deceptive words fueling greed. Oh my, let's see, how about "Christians Should be Prosperous"?
which really meant to them (VERY deceptive!) that Christian (i.e. TWI only) leaders should receive well in excess of 10% of your hard earned income basically for doing nothing but figuring out new ways to get more of your money and more of your effort to get more people in to give more money.
You can't do that without some pretty deceptive words. Speaking for myself, I was deceived for about 7 years.
"God will bless you." These deceptive words were used for other purposes as well.]
"If you don't God will abandon you." So desperate to hold onto our giving they were...resorting to using God as a threatening goon!
"Their condemnation - that was pronounced long ago against them - that is now not asleep -"seems to me (PI) might refer to the old Edenic condemnation "In that day thou shalt surely die"
This might be why, in a ministry, so focused on the holy spirit, that so few if any, are reaping any of the fruits of the sprit.
That "condemnation is not asleep." They are spiritually dormant (or dead) - despite all those manifestations - whew! That's a heavy one, Pete. You're saying that they are acting exactly like 'natural men' (and women). Wow!
It fits like a hand in a glove.
It just goes to show that I Corinthians 13 is the most important of those three chapters (12,13.14). Evil communications corrupt good manners.
Since I'm not a Donatist, I'll say that such ill effects accrue to leaders only - but I fear on those who follow, after 6 months say, as well. Real churches don' t have the falloff in joy and enthusiasm that TWIers experience. "Still sweeter every day" can be a reality except for where false prophets hold sway.
I`ll add a false vpw teaching Juan...only christian believers were our *neighbors* ie we didn`t need to apply any biblical standards of decency or behavior to ANYONE outside the body of christ not our parents...syblings friends.....nobody was worthy of kindness generosity time effort...they were just animals *breathin our air*...that lets twi folks off of a lot biblically.
When reading the passage of the good samaritan....clearly Jesus stated that the SAMARITAN...despised of the jews...WAS the *good* neighbor...in direct conflict with wierwille`s teaching
2 Peter 2:9 the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment
Ok, Class, break's over, let’s move on.
After some parentheticals containing much traditional information regarding Old Testament stories (that isn’t IN the OT!), Pete goes on to say God knows how to keep the sheep from the wolfies with their sheepish garb.
Well, as usual the Lord’s time is not our time. He often seems rather, shall we say LATE! E.g. couldn’t Jesus have stilled the storm BEFORE IT BEGAN? Healed the little girls before she died? etc…. ...showed me how 'off' TWI was before I invested 7 years?
In the Lord’s prayer “lead us not into temptation” probably means more like “deliver us during times of trial.”
Participation in TWI is a time of trial. Granted lots of people have been delivered and here we are participating in a divine greasy spotty effort to deliver the rest (isn’t that what we’re doing? -oh, that’s another thread) until just one false teacher is sitting on top of the money all alone and welcome to it. Who do you vote for?
The unrighteous are kept under punishment until the day of judgement. So Vic and the rest don’t get to really enjoy the spirit and the trip until justice has been done for all the misleading teaching that’s gone down. This might take awhile.
You notice how few go back to TWI once out?
- TWI doesn’t have the spirituality to appeal to those who’ve been delivered from the trial.
2 Peter 2:10 especially those who indulge their flesh in depraved lust,
While I am tempted to detail what believers have said regarding Vic and Loy's "depraved lusts" I fear alienating some of the weak-hearted.
What has been consistently and independently reported (some under oath) regarding Vic's adulterous methods is base beyond words. Young sisters would be sent to the back of the motor coach only to find Vic. ready to be blessed (with some weird blue light bulb shining).
I guess details of Loy's perversions were revealed in Ms. January's court case. They weren't denied, right? I'd change my name if I were he. An ounce of genuine Christianity would issue in public repentance - but alas are they bound in their punishment until the day of judgement? Is anything divine punishment but graceless living?
Is a film of a woman trying to make it with a reluctant dog what you expect from your Bible teacher? I was 15 when this was shown.
Of course, sex isn't the only depraved lust... but it will do for now, OK?
quote:We're getting into motive again. I don't know that he "deliberately" taught error to deliberately deceive. That's motive.
Yes... motive, and that's where I'm coming from, because IMO, he was deliberate... it helped 'satisfy his needs'...
Does the Roman Catholic Church deliberately teach that Mary is the Mediatrix because they deliberately want to deceive people and turn them away from Jesus alone as the Mediator?Yes... again, IMO they do...
I take VP's erroneous teachings as what they are: error. I don't read any more into it, for I don't want to harbor a suspicious and accusative mind set that could be wrong.Error, regardless of motive, is error. The Bible says we are to 'beware', which I would take to mean 'be suspicious, don't trust them, do not be deceived'... and pointing out the error is pointing out the error... not being accusative... it's (as veepee so often said) cutting no slack when it comes to God and His Word... that's the standard he (veepee) told us that he lived by and we should live by... didn't he?
I would like to weigh in on the validity of your claim that these verses apply to VPW, LCM and TWI.
I believe that VPW and LCM became false prophets and teachers like those mentioned in 2 peter 2. First they disqualified themselves from the positions they held. Then they attempted to hide the reasons for their disqualification and thus they undermined their own gift ministries thus making them false. (VPW was better at hiding it than LCM) It also appears to me that other leadership below them was aware, helped hide their actions and thus destroyed there own ministries, disqualifying themselves from the positions they held then and now hold.
As I see it they both held the position of over seer (episcopos) or bishop mentioned in Timothy and Titus since they were both President of TWI the top spiritual and organizational position. They were both disqualified when they could be “blamed” for adultery, which I define as having sex with someone other than their own wife. I believe that the first time they committed that act they could be blamed by any public accusation.
Therefore they were no longer blameless, the FIRST REQUIREMENT for that position.
Titus 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
anenkletos-"blameless." It implies not merely acquittal, but the absence of even a charge or accusation against a person. This is to be the case with elders.
signifies "that which cannot be called to account”
1 Tim 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
anepileptos lit., "that cannot be laid hold of," hence, "not open to censure, irreproachable"
For those who might have trouble accepting the fact that VPW committed serial adultery, please remember that the Passing of the Patriarch was published because women came to the author and asked him what the Bible said about adultery. In addition there are several regular posters who have personal knowledge of VPW’s actions and have posted enough to make credible accusations. I suspect the actual total of those involved is probably over a hundred and only one was enough.
In fact from what I understand in Timothy and Titus it only takes the ability to credibly blame a person who is a candidate for the position of Bishop to disqualify them.
quote:I believe that VPW and LCM became false prophets and teachers like those mentioned in 2 peter 2. First they disqualified themselves from the positions they held. Then they attempted to hide the reasons for their disqualification and thus they undermined their own gift ministries thus making them false. (VPW was better at hiding it than LCM) It also appears to me that other leadership below them was aware, helped hide their actions and thus destroyed there own ministries, disqualifying themselves from the positions they held then and now hold.
I see where you're coming from and can agree with you. From your observation, you said they "became" false prophets, and from their actions, their gift ministries became false. They are born again Christians, but because of their continued secretive evil actions, their gift ministries became false. I see this is possible. But I still have difficulty with verse 9:
quote:The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
This says they will be punished. How? Can't mean eternal punishment, since they are born again, can it?
OM- Let me share my view on their “punishment”. It is based on different verses and teachings that refer to the judgement seat- Bema that every born again believer will stand before God. As I understand at the Bema every believer will be required to give account “of every idle word” (including every thing I posted at GSC? Oh Nooo ), Their works or actions will be tried with fire (to purify that which shall endure) and those which endure and remain will be rewarded. Those which endure may be eligible for “Crowns” or trophies which symbolically entitle those who have earned them with increased stature, responsibility and authority.
As I see it at the Bema ministers and those who used their gift ministries well and genuinely will be rewarded with the knowledge that their ministries reached and blessed far more than they could have ever imagined and be given that much greater stature and responsibility with their crowns. Those that betray their gift ministries as VPW and LCM did will find that most of their actions and potential rewards were lost to them. They will be shown in excruciating detail where they blew it. They will be shown what they would have been entitled to.- This is their punishment.
Perhaps ministers like Bullinger, Leonard, and Stiles will be rewarded for the positive impact their ministries had on many of those who took the PFAL series, while the rewards that VPW and LCM should have received if they had not caused their ministries to become false will be lost to them and their rewards might be added to Bullinger, Leonard, and Stiles.
I also suspect that some how we will remember the periods of this life when we were “in fellowship and earning rewards” because that knowledge will be needed in our responsibilities and duties after the bema and for the rest of eternity. We will not remember the times when were not. Also some how those of us who stood at the Bema and like VPW and LCM and had such a major shock and loss of potential rewards will some how have the knowledge tempered altered or completely erased so that this will be true.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
As A graphic summary let me put it this way LCM liked to use the phrase after the Bema a lot people who lost rewards will be handed a broom. My view is that after the Bema VP and he will be assigned to bowl patrol in New Jerusalem and be working with me on a team I supervise. We may all be no more than happy blessed simpletons for all of eternity or we may have the opportunity to grow and redeem ourselves in some way through eternity, but where we start from after the bema will naturally limit how far we can go in terms of growth.
quote:OM- Let me share my view on their “punishment”. It is based on different verses and teachings that refer to the judgement seat- Bema that every born again believer will stand before God. As I understand at the Bema every believer will be required to give account “of every idle word” (including every thing I posted at GSC? Oh Nooo ), Their works or actions will be tried with fire (to purify that which shall endure) and those which endure and remain will be rewarded. Those which endure may be eligible for “Crowns” or trophies which symbolically entitle those who have earned them with increased stature, responsibility and authority.
As I see it at the Bema ministers and those who used their gift ministries well and genuinely will be rewarded with the knowledge that their ministries reached and blessed far more than they could have ever imagined and be given that much greater stature and responsibility with their crowns. Those that betray their gift ministries as VPW and LCM did will find that most of their actions and potential rewards were lost to them. They will be shown in excruciating detail where they blew it. They will be shown what they would have been entitled to.- This is their punishment.
Perhaps ministers like Bullinger, Leonard, and Stiles will be rewarded for the positive impact their ministries had on many of those who took the PFAL series, while the rewards that VPW and LCM should have received if they had not caused their ministries to become false will be lost to them and their rewards might be added to Bullinger, Leonard, and Stiles.
I also suspect that some how we will remember the periods of this life when we were “in fellowship and earning rewards” because that knowledge will be needed in our responsibilities and duties after the bema and for the rest of eternity. We will not remember the times when were not. Also some how those of us who stood at the Bema and like VPW and LCM and had such a major shock and loss of potential rewards will some how have the knowledge tempered altered or completely erased so that this will be true.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
As A graphic summary let me put it this way LCM liked to use the phrase after the Bema a lot people who lost rewards will be handed a broom. My view is that after the Bema VP and he will be assigned to bowl patrol in New Jerusalem and be working with me on a team I supervise. We may all be no more than happy blessed simpletons for all of eternity or we may have the opportunity to grow and redeem ourselves in some way through eternity, but where we start from after the bema will naturally limit how far we can go in terms of growth.
ckeer, your views are very reasonable and interesting, worthy of much consideration. I also think your statement is applicable to this thread and gives a decent perspective to the topic discussed. Thanks for sharing.
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rascal
Oldies...I thought I read in your posts that you had never met him... sorry for getting you confused with the other wierwille fan....my bad.
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Juan Cruz
OM,
Your ideological stance is revealed in such argumentative techniques as 'knocking down a straw man.' i.e. my introductory parenthetical phrase.
Imagine: knocking down one straw man to keep another standing.
Please comment on the substantive denial of the Master I DID address.
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Tom Strange
OM said (my bold):
Dude! do you 'hear' what you're saying? And the end of that statement magnifies the sin! Deliberately mixing true and false teachings so that those who trust and follow you is what it's all about! The whole 'crux of the biscuit' if you will....(and thanks for taking the light hearted jab in the post above the way it was intended!)
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Juan Cruz
Let’s back up a bit here.
2 Peter 2:1 “there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive opinions."
I was taught that Rock Music was a communist plot.
I was taught that Jews today do not really qualify as Jews.
I was taught that some people are unredeemable.
I was taught the Holocaust was exaggerated.
I was taught that unbelievers are “just so much hamburger meat.”
I was taught that all other churches were less than truly Christian.
I was taught that homosexuals were worthy of death.
I was taught I was only safe as long as I was faithful to one ministry.
I was taught that adultery, gambling, dope, and abusive drinking could all be parts of a legitimate unrepentant Christian leader’s life.
I was taught that only we understood the Bible.
I was taught that only we had the genuine “first century church in the twentieth.”
I was taught that debt was unacceptable in a Christian’s life.
Abortion was encouraged as a standard birth control technique for nefarious reasons.
I was taught that a woman’s primary objective is to please her man.
I was taught:
bullying,
ostentatious display,
self-aggrandizement,
slander,
exploitation,
money-grubbing,
grace-selling
These are “destructive opinions.” We’ve only begun. I’m sure those who stayed in longer heard others.
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Juan Cruz
destructive opinions continued:
I was taught that all Roman Catholicism (past, present and future) is satanic.
I was taught that gratuitous pornography is OK.
That crudeness is godliness.
That pimping for the man of God is righteous service.
That the kingdom of God needs its accomplishments to be exaggerated.
That community service is a waste of time.
That children should be hit with wooden spoons.
And teh number one destructive opoinion (toundermine Christain d iscipleshlip royally...) is......
That all charity begins and ends at home. “Home” meaning TWI.
All else is "second best." In other words, “don't give a minute to helping those in need.”
How's that for undermining the Bible's message !?!
But "he taught more true than false."
I don't think so.
Note how none of these were spelled out in public teachings. It's secretive. Part of LCM's downfall is that he really didn't understand how false teaching and secrecy go hand in hand.
How accurate 2 Peter 2 is. Aw Peepull, don't cha see it?!? It just sits there like a diamond!
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oldiesman
Juan
What substantive denial? I don't equate twi's teaching about and adherence to the church epistles as denying the Master. No way, shape or form does that viewpoint deny Jesus, for the epistles exalt and honor Jesus repeatedly.
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oldiesman
Tom
We're getting into motive again. I don't know that he "deliberately" taught error to deliberately deceive. That's motive.
Does the Roman Catholic Church deliberately teach that Mary is the Mediatrix because they deliberately want to deceive people and turn them away from Jesus alone as the Mediator?
I take VP's erroneous teachings as what they are: error. I don't read any more into it, for I don't want to harbor a suspicious and accusative mind set that could be wrong.
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Juan Cruz
OM, all the same, I'm glad I got out
so that I could learn what the rest of Christianity knows.
That the gospels are essential to a faithful disciples' mindset.
It was a "secret destructive opinion." No one came out and said to us "neglect the gospels."
But we did.
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Juan Cruz
2a “Even so, many will follow their licentious ways, “
Thesaurus results: dissolute, immoral, shameless, profligate, wicked
Miriam-Webster dictionary:
Main Entry: li·cen·tious
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin licentious, from licentia
Date: 1535
1 : lacking legal or moral restraints; especially : disregarding sexual restraints
2 : marked by disregard for strict rules of correctness
KJV: pernicious” apoleia -genitive of destruction “way of destruction” but there is a strong textual variant with a stronger emphasis on “wanton or lascivious”.
Well Vic sure fits this, huh?
And he taught others to do so. And he never taught not to do so. And many were hurt badly (not the abundant life for victims..but Vic’s idea for himself of the abundant life, I guess).
It’s one thing to follow a destructive path for oneself but the false teachers the author refers to teach others also. It was a CULTURE of abusive lasciviousness in TWI.
The followers emulated the chief and were not discouraged from doing so. The Bible says plenty about sinners who teach others to follow their example and it ain’t good.
Desperate for followers he was. The more followers the better. "World over The World." All this..was it because Vic had such big heart for "Jesus and His love"?
Given that we'll all be judged, one can only hope his motivation for gathering such large numbers of followers had nothing to do with power, money (flowing to New Knoxville coffers), pride, or lust.
Lasciviousness does not just refer to sex. Behind the beautiful exterior of HQ (a “whited sepulcure”) was a crass materialism and “the pride of the eyes.”
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Juan Cruz
2 Peter 2:3 And in their greed they will exploit you with deceptive words. Their condemnation, pronounced against them long ago, has not been idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
Deceptive words fueling greed. Oh my, let's see, how about "Christians Should be Prosperous"?
which really meant to them (VERY deceptive!) that Christian (i.e. TWI only) leaders should receive well in excess of 10% of your hard earned income basically for doing nothing but figuring out new ways to get more of your money and more of your effort to get more people in to give more money.
You can't do that without some pretty deceptive words. Speaking for myself, I was deceived for about 7 years.
"God will bless you." These deceptive words were used for other purposes as well.]
"If you don't God will abandon you." So desperate to hold onto our giving they were...resorting to using God as a threatening goon!
"Their condemnation - that was pronounced long ago against them - that is now not asleep -"seems to me (PI) might refer to the old Edenic condemnation "In that day thou shalt surely die"
This might be why, in a ministry, so focused on the holy spirit, that so few if any, are reaping any of the fruits of the sprit.
That "condemnation is not asleep." They are spiritually dormant (or dead) - despite all those manifestations - whew! That's a heavy one, Pete. You're saying that they are acting exactly like 'natural men' (and women). Wow!
It fits like a hand in a glove.
It just goes to show that I Corinthians 13 is the most important of those three chapters (12,13.14). Evil communications corrupt good manners.
Since I'm not a Donatist, I'll say that such ill effects accrue to leaders only - but I fear on those who follow, after 6 months say, as well. Real churches don' t have the falloff in joy and enthusiasm that TWIers experience. "Still sweeter every day" can be a reality except for where false prophets hold sway.
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excathedra
i like your posts juan and i don't even like the bible very much
still sweeter every day.... boy the longer i stayed "in" the suckier it got
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rascal
I`ll add a false vpw teaching Juan...only christian believers were our *neighbors* ie we didn`t need to apply any biblical standards of decency or behavior to ANYONE outside the body of christ not our parents...syblings friends.....nobody was worthy of kindness generosity time effort...they were just animals *breathin our air*...that lets twi folks off of a lot biblically.
When reading the passage of the good samaritan....clearly Jesus stated that the SAMARITAN...despised of the jews...WAS the *good* neighbor...in direct conflict with wierwille`s teaching
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excathedra
hey wows
forget about seeing your parents and family
do you get a vacation / time off from the Army ? or whatever that stoopid analogy was.....
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Juan Cruz
2 Peter 2:9 the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment
Ok, Class, break's over, let’s move on.
After some parentheticals containing much traditional information regarding Old Testament stories (that isn’t IN the OT!), Pete goes on to say God knows how to keep the sheep from the wolfies with their sheepish garb.
Well, as usual the Lord’s time is not our time. He often seems rather, shall we say LATE! E.g. couldn’t Jesus have stilled the storm BEFORE IT BEGAN? Healed the little girls before she died? etc…. ...showed me how 'off' TWI was before I invested 7 years?
In the Lord’s prayer “lead us not into temptation” probably means more like “deliver us during times of trial.”
Participation in TWI is a time of trial. Granted lots of people have been delivered and here we are participating in a divine greasy spotty effort to deliver the rest (isn’t that what we’re doing? -oh, that’s another thread) until just one false teacher is sitting on top of the money all alone and welcome to it. Who do you vote for?
The unrighteous are kept under punishment until the day of judgement. So Vic and the rest don’t get to really enjoy the spirit and the trip until justice has been done for all the misleading teaching that’s gone down. This might take awhile.
You notice how few go back to TWI once out?
- TWI doesn’t have the spirituality to appeal to those who’ve been delivered from the trial.
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Juan Cruz
2 Peter 2:10 especially those who indulge their flesh in depraved lust,
While I am tempted to detail what believers have said regarding Vic and Loy's "depraved lusts" I fear alienating some of the weak-hearted.
What has been consistently and independently reported (some under oath) regarding Vic's adulterous methods is base beyond words. Young sisters would be sent to the back of the motor coach only to find Vic. ready to be blessed (with some weird blue light bulb shining).
I guess details of Loy's perversions were revealed in Ms. January's court case. They weren't denied, right? I'd change my name if I were he. An ounce of genuine Christianity would issue in public repentance - but alas are they bound in their punishment until the day of judgement? Is anything divine punishment but graceless living?
Is a film of a woman trying to make it with a reluctant dog what you expect from your Bible teacher? I was 15 when this was shown.
Of course, sex isn't the only depraved lust... but it will do for now, OK?
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Tom Strange
OM said (my responses in bold):
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ckeer
I would like to weigh in on the validity of your claim that these verses apply to VPW, LCM and TWI.
I believe that VPW and LCM became false prophets and teachers like those mentioned in 2 peter 2. First they disqualified themselves from the positions they held. Then they attempted to hide the reasons for their disqualification and thus they undermined their own gift ministries thus making them false. (VPW was better at hiding it than LCM) It also appears to me that other leadership below them was aware, helped hide their actions and thus destroyed there own ministries, disqualifying themselves from the positions they held then and now hold.
As I see it they both held the position of over seer (episcopos) or bishop mentioned in Timothy and Titus since they were both President of TWI the top spiritual and organizational position. They were both disqualified when they could be “blamed” for adultery, which I define as having sex with someone other than their own wife. I believe that the first time they committed that act they could be blamed by any public accusation.
Therefore they were no longer blameless, the FIRST REQUIREMENT for that position.
I am using http://www.blueletterbible.org/ To quote the KJV and Strongs
For those who might have trouble accepting the fact that VPW committed serial adultery, please remember that the Passing of the Patriarch was published because women came to the author and asked him what the Bible said about adultery. In addition there are several regular posters who have personal knowledge of VPW’s actions and have posted enough to make credible accusations. I suspect the actual total of those involved is probably over a hundred and only one was enough.
In fact from what I understand in Timothy and Titus it only takes the ability to credibly blame a person who is a candidate for the position of Bishop to disqualify them.
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oldiesman
ckeer
I see where you're coming from and can agree with you. From your observation, you said they "became" false prophets, and from their actions, their gift ministries became false. They are born again Christians, but because of their continued secretive evil actions, their gift ministries became false. I see this is possible. But I still have difficulty with verse 9:
This says they will be punished. How? Can't mean eternal punishment, since they are born again, can it?
What's your opinion ckeer?
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WordWolf
It means they will be accountable to God for abusing His people, at a
time He has appointed, in a fashion He has determined. Being born again
is NOT a free pass to abuse God's people, murder, etc.
We can discuss the specifics in the DOCTRINAL forum, since that is a
DOCTRINAL matter, and not an issue germane to this topic, which is
specifically about false prophets, and, as you added, whether or not
specific leaders qualify as such.
Sounds like, yes, we seem to agree they qualify, and we all agree on this.
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ckeer
OM- Let me share my view on their “punishment”. It is based on different verses and teachings that refer to the judgement seat- Bema that every born again believer will stand before God. As I understand at the Bema every believer will be required to give account “of every idle word” (including every thing I posted at GSC? Oh Nooo ), Their works or actions will be tried with fire (to purify that which shall endure) and those which endure and remain will be rewarded. Those which endure may be eligible for “Crowns” or trophies which symbolically entitle those who have earned them with increased stature, responsibility and authority.
As I see it at the Bema ministers and those who used their gift ministries well and genuinely will be rewarded with the knowledge that their ministries reached and blessed far more than they could have ever imagined and be given that much greater stature and responsibility with their crowns. Those that betray their gift ministries as VPW and LCM did will find that most of their actions and potential rewards were lost to them. They will be shown in excruciating detail where they blew it. They will be shown what they would have been entitled to.- This is their punishment.
Perhaps ministers like Bullinger, Leonard, and Stiles will be rewarded for the positive impact their ministries had on many of those who took the PFAL series, while the rewards that VPW and LCM should have received if they had not caused their ministries to become false will be lost to them and their rewards might be added to Bullinger, Leonard, and Stiles.
I also suspect that some how we will remember the periods of this life when we were “in fellowship and earning rewards” because that knowledge will be needed in our responsibilities and duties after the bema and for the rest of eternity. We will not remember the times when were not. Also some how those of us who stood at the Bema and like VPW and LCM and had such a major shock and loss of potential rewards will some how have the knowledge tempered altered or completely erased so that this will be true.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
As A graphic summary let me put it this way LCM liked to use the phrase after the Bema a lot people who lost rewards will be handed a broom. My view is that after the Bema VP and he will be assigned to bowl patrol in New Jerusalem and be working with me on a team I supervise. We may all be no more than happy blessed simpletons for all of eternity or we may have the opportunity to grow and redeem ourselves in some way through eternity, but where we start from after the bema will naturally limit how far we can go in terms of growth.
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ckeer
WW you are right I appologize for straying into doctrine.
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oldiesman
ckeer, your views are very reasonable and interesting, worthy of much consideration. I also think your statement is applicable to this thread and gives a decent perspective to the topic discussed. Thanks for sharing.
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Bluzeman
Gee, if that's true, I hope I get in line before Excathedra and Zixar. Otherwise, eternity will be OVER before I get my chance.
:D-->
Just kiddin' with ya!
:)-->
Rick
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excathedra
ha ha ha ha ha rick (slap slap)
NO it's every IDLE word so I won't even be in line
;)--> 
;)--> 
;)-->
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