The very first verse kills your thesis. You're saying Dr. was a false prophet and teacher? No way. He taught folks the exact biblical teaching on how to come to God thru Christ, our lord and saviour, and other biblical goodies. And when did Wierwille ever deny Jesus Christ?
Again, I would suggest that when all you focus on, all you deem that has any meaning, is a person's evil deeds, you come to irrational and biased conclusions.
I haven't read Juan's example yet... but I'll respond "back atcha" OM:
quote:Again, I would suggest that when all you focus on, all you deem that has any meaning, is a person's evil deeds, you come to irrational and biased conclusions.
Please allow me to change a couple of words... the same point is reached...
"I wouls suggest that when all you focus on, all you deem that has any meaning, is a person's apparent good deeds, you come to irrational and biased conclusions."
especially if there were ulterior motives involved as the reason for those apparent good deeds
(that's where the 'false prophet' comes into play)
You're both assuming that a person's evil works, or sins, defines them as a false prophet and that's the end of the story. That's your belief, your opinion.
quote:good is not good when the motivation is evil
how does anyone know Wierwille's good works were motivated by evil? are you the Amazing Kreskin?
evenings and week-ends provide a safer haven from such first responses.
Now the 2nd Pete stuff,check out 2Tim 3 (I think it is) In all honesty I could see and document more from TWI-2 from these sections of scriptures. The first was better at covering up.........
Grizzy is correct. Please begin your threads on evenings (after 5:00 pm.) and weekends so that you may enjoy unabated and uninterrupted Wierwille condemnation. Thanks.
Shoot wierwille`s life and actions condemn him far more soundly than we ever could...lol
Grizz, as far as recent history vs distant history...it is all necessary...You who are familiar with the *present* darkness can warn and make folks aware, those with information regarding past evil can present that .... it`s all needed ...all good, it all adds pieces to the puzzel for those attempting to view the whole picture...as well as sets people free from the bondage of false ideas and conceptions that were taught by untrustworthey sources.
The purpose of my post was to give space for anyone who sincerely would like to discuss this biblical portrait of a false prophet -who to me, resembled someone I once adored. OK?
But now let's just say ANY unnamed "false prophet" OK? ;)--> Then no one needs to exercise their ministry of policing the indignant.
For those who agree that someone we once knew was not a true teacher or prophet and would like some biblically based insight into how such a one might have created an awful bondage-filled mess of a cult, 2 Peter probably has something to say to you.
OK? Better?
For instance: a false teacher often has terrible pastoral skills. They just don't really care about people other than themselves.
also, their followers might tend to be sincere and yet quite fearful. After all they are latched on to a wolf in sheep's clothing. ..can be both scary and confusing.
In my experience...a faithful high school kid in a real church can understand the Bible better than a 20 year veteran who's been trying hard to grow spiritually under the direction of a false teacher.
Now, I'm not saying who, when or where but I've seen this with my own eyes.
You and Mike Have a talent for putting wotds in other peoples mouths and I wish you both would stop it!!
Just because many of us hate what was done in TWI, hate what VPW and LCM etal did--DOES NOT mean that we hate them as human beings!!!
,
SOme MAy-- but I, and I expect many others, Have asked GOd to forgive. Part of Being Christian means Forgiving others the wrong they do you--Forgiving the wrong they do doesn't mean the wrong never existed.
If the party continues to do wrong, or refuses to admit wrong and continues to hurt others, you have a moral obligation to alert the unwary unwary or unknowing what is happening as well as providing comfort to your injured brothers and sisters.
PLease in the future keep your apples (people) and your oranges (their actions) separate
quote:Just because many of us hate what was done in TWI, hate what VPW and LCM etal did--DOES NOT mean that we hate them as human beings!!!
Hi Mo, I can't help interpret the relentless condemnation of Wierwille by some as anything but hatred of the man. Come on let's face it, some folks hate his guts. He's the evil monster, worse than Frankenstein or Adolph.
quote: SOme MAy-- but I, and I expect many others, Have asked GOd to forgive.
Yeah, and most of those folks are the ones who never post.
quote:If the party continues to do wrong, or refuses to admit wrong and continues to hurt others, you have a moral obligation to alert the unwary unwary or unknowing what is happening ...
Good point, and I'd say that's right if Wierwille were still alive, doing evil. But Wierwille's dead. He doesn't continue to do wrong and doesn't refuse to admit wrong and doesn't continue to hurt others, because he's dead. If he was still alive, I'd understand and your point is well taken.
well MAYBE... when folks quit venerating vp and worshipping his works...and expecting us to do likewise.......we will quit pointing out the reasons WHY we don`t have any need to love or respect him OR his mishmash of plagerised/scripture twisting/life destroying doctrines :-)
The very bible he so exhalted...condemns him, his actions and his ministry soundly.....
I am sorry ...but those who knew him have tried to tell you ..who have NEVER met him that he just wasn`t a very nice man.
Ya bought the show oldies....thats all...and it would apear that you are mad because the rest of us refuse to be swindled any longer.
There are other parts that describe the illusion that was our ministry in many versions...and I do like the NRS now---that I am weaned off of reading and talking like pre-guttenburg.
And even the Pharisees had people following the law correctly...doesn't make them good Jews if behind the scenes they were as idolotrous as the word says they were.
quote: You're saying Dr. was a false prophet and teacher? No way. He taught folks the exact biblical teaching on how to come to God thru Christ, our lord and saviour, and other biblical goodies. And when did Wierwille ever deny Jesus Christ
When He taught that Adultry was okay to bless the MOG--- he was a false teacher
When he taught that parents were responsible for their children's deaths through negative believing--he was a false teacher
He said that the US would be destroyed by secret societies --False Prophecy
NO one has Ever said that Everything he taught was false--but that doesn't make everything he taught was true much as you keep trying to force that ideology here at GS
quote: I'd say that's right if Wierwille were still alive, doing evil. But Wierwille's dead. He doesn't continue to do wrong and doesn't refuse to admit wrong and doesn't continue to hurt others, because he's dead
He doesn't have too--you who so adamantly defend and whitewash his actions do it so very well for him.
SO we have a catch 22 he can't say " I was Wrong and I'm sorry for the hurt I caused"
and you defenders won't say "" He was Wrong and I'm sorry for the hurt he caused" Because then you'd have to admit that your MOg was a tarnished and flawed human just like the rest of us--except he had a lot more power that he used to abuse with.
GS Fantasy--
someday a TWIer will appear and Say
"we understand why you at GS are so hurt and angry--What leadership did in many cases was so very evil and wrong--and although the person who started it was wrong in so many areas, and it was perpetuated--we want you to know we are sorry for the pain. We still believe the Teachings of TWI but no longer rejoice in your hurt as something you deserve"
quote:He's the evil monster, worse than Frankenstein or Adolph.
Truer words were never spoken by you OM! And I agree with you 100%! I knew we'd find a common ground somewhere!
I don't like the man one bit, in fact you could say I extremely dislike him... but I don't hate the man... that would take more effort than he's worth.
quote:I am sorry ...but those who knew him have tried to tell you ..who have NEVER met him that he just wasn`t a very nice man.
How do you know I never met him? I first met him in 1973 at the end of my first PFAL class at a camp in NY. Spent some time with him a year later, at a CFS camp. Spent some time with him again in 1978, at an advanced class. Spent an entire month with him in 1984, on a motorcycle trip across the country and back.
MO
quote:When He taught that Adultry was okay to bless the MOG--- he was a false teacher ... When he taught that parents were responsible for their children's deaths through negative believing--he was a false teacher
I also think his teaching on tithing in CSBP was false, but I don't label someone a false teacher based on some false teachings, what I do is weigh everything, true and false teachings. I think his teachings were more true than false.
quote:He said that the US would be destroyed by secret societies --False Prophecy
As I recall, he said in 1976 that the commies would take over if we didn't get the word over the usa. Don't know and wouldn't surmise anything else about it, but calling someone a false prophet based on that one example is weak.
quote:NO one has Ever said that Everything he taught was false--but that doesn't make everything he taught was true much as you keep trying to force that ideology here at GS
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oldiesman
The very first verse kills your thesis. You're saying Dr. was a false prophet and teacher? No way. He taught folks the exact biblical teaching on how to come to God thru Christ, our lord and saviour, and other biblical goodies. And when did Wierwille ever deny Jesus Christ?
Again, I would suggest that when all you focus on, all you deem that has any meaning, is a person's evil deeds, you come to irrational and biased conclusions.
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Tom Strange
I haven't read Juan's example yet... but I'll respond "back atcha" OM:
Please allow me to change a couple of words... the same point is reached..."I wouls suggest that when all you focus on, all you deem that has any meaning, is a person's apparent good deeds, you come to irrational and biased conclusions."
especially if there were ulterior motives involved as the reason for those apparent good deeds
(that's where the 'false prophet' comes into play)
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oldiesman
Tom, and when one takes all the evidence, both good and evil into consideration, what may one conclude?
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Steve!
om, once again you conclusively prove that when it comes to docvic(praise be his name), you have blinders of extraordinary magnitude.
Lies cannot exist without truth.
If docvic(praise be his name) had not spoken at least some good things, he could never have hornswoggled as many people as he did.
Without at least some truth, there can be no false prophets.
When your house of cards comes tumbling down, I just hope you haven't alienated everyone that would be there to be a support system for you.
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Tom Strange
I think Mr. ! answered the question. I would only add: Good is not good when the motivation is evil.
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oldiesman
You're both assuming that a person's evil works, or sins, defines them as a false prophet and that's the end of the story. That's your belief, your opinion.
how does anyone know Wierwille's good works were motivated by evil? are you the Amazing Kreskin?Link to comment
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Tom Strange
Nope... not Kreskin... I just have my eyes open... someday maybe you will as well...
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Steve!
By your fruit you shall be known.
I think I read that somewhere once.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
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WordWolf
Let's see...
He claimed to receive direct revelation on doctrine, but photocopied it
from others (sometimes making mistakes the originals lacked), and make
predictions of the future from time to time that did NOT come to pass.
That's what all those conspiracy theories led to-predictions of the fall
of western civilization, and takeovers of the US by secret societies.
He spoke of things that were to come to pass, and held himself simultaneously
as THE Teacher, The One and Only man speaking on behalf of God Almighty.
Therefore, prophecies which did not come to pass.
When a prophet speaks of things that do NOT come to pass, they are a
FALSE prophet, they did NOT receive it from God, they spoke it PRESUMPTUOUSLY,
and, under the Mosaic Law, earned the Death Penalty.
Further, he used the women who wanted to worship God for his base lusts.
By these evil dealings, he caused the Lord's people to transgress. After all,
if one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him, but if a man sins
against the LORD, who shall entreat for Him? (I Samuel 2.) Like Hophni and
Phineas before him, who were sons of Belial and knew not the Lord, he used
the office of a servant of God for sexual satisfaction at the expense of God's
people, and personal gain and luxuries at the expense of God's people.
I'm not saying he himself was a son of Belial, but he sure acted in the same
FASHION as one, didn't he? If he wasn't, he did a fair imitation of one.
Therefore, vpw was a false prophet who caused God's people to stumble.
Part of the time.
Sometimes he was kind to animals and small children.
Then again, John Wayne Gacy served as a clown and did children's parties
some of the time, when he wasn't killing people. I hear Jeffrey Dahmer
could have a kindly demeanor most of the time-he only ate people part of the
time as a sort-of hobby. Evil communications corrupt good manners.
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Grizzy
note to Juan Cruz
evenings and week-ends provide a safer haven from such first responses.
Now the 2nd Pete stuff,check out 2Tim 3 (I think it is) In all honesty I could see and document more from TWI-2 from these sections of scriptures. The first was better at covering up.........
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oldiesman
TO ALL WIERWILLE HATERS:
Grizzy is correct. Please begin your threads on evenings (after 5:00 pm.) and weekends so that you may enjoy unabated and uninterrupted Wierwille condemnation. Thanks.
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Grizzy
happy to help OM...........
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rascal
Shoot wierwille`s life and actions condemn him far more soundly than we ever could...lol
Grizz, as far as recent history vs distant history...it is all necessary...You who are familiar with the *present* darkness can warn and make folks aware, those with information regarding past evil can present that .... it`s all needed ...all good, it all adds pieces to the puzzel for those attempting to view the whole picture...as well as sets people free from the bondage of false ideas and conceptions that were taught by untrustworthey sources.
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Juan Cruz
The purpose of my post was to give space for anyone who sincerely would like to discuss this biblical portrait of a false prophet -who to me, resembled someone I once adored. OK?
But now let's just say ANY unnamed "false prophet" OK?
;)--> Then no one needs to exercise their ministry of policing the indignant.
For those who agree that someone we once knew was not a true teacher or prophet and would like some biblically based insight into how such a one might have created an awful bondage-filled mess of a cult, 2 Peter probably has something to say to you.
OK? Better?
For instance: a false teacher often has terrible pastoral skills. They just don't really care about people other than themselves.
also, their followers might tend to be sincere and yet quite fearful. After all they are latched on to a wolf in sheep's clothing. ..can be both scary and confusing.
In my experience...a faithful high school kid in a real church can understand the Bible better than a 20 year veteran who's been trying hard to grow spiritually under the direction of a false teacher.
Now, I'm not saying who, when or where but I've seen this with my own eyes.
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Steve!
Juan, you don't know om very well.
You could have posted, "One time, at this one place, adultery happened" and om would answer
"ALL YOU DOCVIC(PRAISE BE HIS NAME) HATERS BETTER SHUT THE HELL UP!"
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templelady
OM,
You and Mike Have a talent for putting wotds in other peoples mouths and I wish you both would stop it!!
Just because many of us hate what was done in TWI, hate what VPW and LCM etal did--DOES NOT mean that we hate them as human beings!!!
,
SOme MAy-- but I, and I expect many others, Have asked GOd to forgive. Part of Being Christian means Forgiving others the wrong they do you--Forgiving the wrong they do doesn't mean the wrong never existed.
If the party continues to do wrong, or refuses to admit wrong and continues to hurt others, you have a moral obligation to alert the unwary unwary or unknowing what is happening as well as providing comfort to your injured brothers and sisters.
PLease in the future keep your apples (people) and your oranges (their actions) separate
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oldiesman
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Steve!
As usual om is very adept at completely missing the point and focusing solely on his preconceptions.
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rascal
well MAYBE... when folks quit venerating vp and worshipping his works...and expecting us to do likewise.......we will quit pointing out the reasons WHY we don`t have any need to love or respect him OR his mishmash of plagerised/scripture twisting/life destroying doctrines :-)
The very bible he so exhalted...condemns him, his actions and his ministry soundly.....
I am sorry ...but those who knew him have tried to tell you ..who have NEVER met him that he just wasn`t a very nice man.
Ya bought the show oldies....thats all...and it would apear that you are mad because the rest of us refuse to be swindled any longer.
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washingtonweather
Juan---I liked your post.
Grizzy --tgats funny--eve and weekends..LOL
There are other parts that describe the illusion that was our ministry in many versions...and I do like the NRS now---that I am weaned off of reading and talking like pre-guttenburg.
And even the Pharisees had people following the law correctly...doesn't make them good Jews if behind the scenes they were as idolotrous as the word says they were.
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templelady
OM
When He taught that Adultry was okay to bless the MOG--- he was a false teacher
When he taught that parents were responsible for their children's deaths through negative believing--he was a false teacher
He said that the US would be destroyed by secret societies --False Prophecy
NO one has Ever said that Everything he taught was false--but that doesn't make everything he taught was true much as you keep trying to force that ideology here at GS
He doesn't have too--you who so adamantly defend and whitewash his actions do it so very well for him.
SO we have a catch 22 he can't say " I was Wrong and I'm sorry for the hurt I caused"
and you defenders won't say "" He was Wrong and I'm sorry for the hurt he caused" Because then you'd have to admit that your MOg was a tarnished and flawed human just like the rest of us--except he had a lot more power that he used to abuse with.
GS Fantasy--
someday a TWIer will appear and Say
"we understand why you at GS are so hurt and angry--What leadership did in many cases was so very evil and wrong--and although the person who started it was wrong in so many areas, and it was perpetuated--we want you to know we are sorry for the pain. We still believe the Teachings of TWI but no longer rejoice in your hurt as something you deserve"
SOMEDAY--But not Today , mores the pity.
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Tom Strange
OM said about veepee:
Truer words were never spoken by you OM! And I agree with you 100%! I knew we'd find a common ground somewhere!I don't like the man one bit, in fact you could say I extremely dislike him... but I don't hate the man... that would take more effort than he's worth.
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Juan Cruz
While some might say Vic denied the Master by publishing "Jesus Christ is not God..."
many others of us would site his foolish designation of the gospels as "someone else's mail"
This denigration through designation
denies the Master His due in readers' lives.
The Master's life, teachings, stories, example, sufferings, death and resurrection are the foundation for a Christian mindset.
"They will even deny the Master" 2 Peter 2:1
"bringing swift destruction upon themselves"
["In that day ye shall surely die."]
I don't think there's a single Christian out there who makes this stupid, stupid spiritual error except Wierwille's' followers.
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oldiesman
Rascal
How do you know I never met him? I first met him in 1973 at the end of my first PFAL class at a camp in NY. Spent some time with him a year later, at a CFS camp. Spent some time with him again in 1978, at an advanced class. Spent an entire month with him in 1984, on a motorcycle trip across the country and back.MO
I also think his teaching on tithing in CSBP was false, but I don't label someone a false teacher based on some false teachings, what I do is weigh everything, true and false teachings. I think his teachings were more true than false.
As I recall, he said in 1976 that the commies would take over if we didn't get the word over the usa. Don't know and wouldn't surmise anything else about it, but calling someone a false prophet based on that one example is weak.
I never said everything he taught was true...
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