Yeah, I know in THE CULT THAT SNAPPED there's an account of a riot due to Wierwille's presence in India. (funny that was never mentioned at WayWorld)
I DID originally mean this as a simple insult, but after I thought about it a bit, it struck me that there could have been some influence on VPW. I can see the wheels turning in his head "Sexually abuse all the women you want, but use 'Religious Service' as a cover. Hmmm, interesting..."
If I were an unbeliever, I'd wanna be just like you (smart, funny, honest). Or to put slightly more biblically, "Almost thou persuadest me to disbelieve." lol
The degree of secrecy and cult acceptance vary, but you've got the seed of a good term-paper or dissertation there - not for you, silly! ...for some upperclassperson at Harvard, say, with a cross-disciplinary concentration in any of the following...
Mr. Wierwille seemed to have an extraordinary capacity to rationalize his sexual cravings. There's no doubt that he understood the relationship between authority and sexual license. He actually did convince himself that all the women in the kingdom belong to the king. It's no stretch at all to assume that his time in India served to reinforce his predatory sexual nature.
There are two obstacles to the intrepid investigator.
VPW was rather young when he went to India. Denominational colleagues (i.e. other local clergy) would have served on the oversight committee that received complaints about his behavior abroad (and in Ohio) and acted on them as something he did was sufficient to defrock him.* These colleagues are dying off now.
The denomination merged and records were moved (where?). An Ohio UCC official I called a few years ago was uncooperative (like...'Don't want to help you dig up old dirt about a defrocked former clergyperson of our denomination.'). Minutes of church proceedings to investigate sensitive issues (say...clergy sexual misconduct) are unlikely to be made available even if they exsist.
*He was defrocked from the United Church of Christ. UCC does not defrock people for theological reasons without a major who-doo. More conservative colleagues are tolerated by even the most liberal denominations. They are not kicked out. It is almost always those who are 'too liberal' who are challenged as heretics. Any theological challenge to VP's ordination would have been a nationally known and covered case. [However, clergy are quietly defrocked for other reasons.]
According to Veepee, he made his trip to India independant of his denomination and financed it himself. In fact, his denomination was unhappy with him going there like he did. Supposedly, Veepee was "checking out" what they were doing with the foriegn missionary money. At least this was Veepee spin on what happened as he told a small group of us once.
I suspect that his going to India was a "political move" on his part, with his denomination. He was going to be the whistle blower and expose all this fraud that he saw...his reward for all this? Who knows what Veepee was thinking at the time. He still had delusions that his "man of God" persona would operate within his beloved denomination. Perhaps he saw himself as chairman of some board that controlled large amounts of denominational funds...who knows? I think it's safe to say that his trip to India was calculated in his own mind for some self serving purpose.
I think that his whole plan blew up in his face. He got into so much trouble over there that whatever he originally had in mind, backfired in his face. I had always heard that wierwille was defrocked because of sexual indiscretions. I'm not sure of the order of events, but all this ties together in his denomination running him off. Unfortunately, this was the springboard for his starting his own cult.
quote: He still had delusions that his "man of God" persona would operate within his beloved denomination.
Unk, thanks for the informative post.
That whole mindset of "MOG" is so foreign to mainline denominations that, at this early point in his faithless career, it was probably still just inchoate pridefulness and outsized needyness (rather than his latter meglomania).
These, I speculate were the seeds of his faux-Mogiosity.
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WordWolf
*reviews links*
At first, I thought you were just tossing out an insult.
The more I read, though, the more I wonder how close to the
mark this is.
For that matter, so long as I'm wondering, what WAS the
original motivation for spending time in India, of all
places? (Is it possible he read or heard something like
this which affected his decision, or prompted a trip at
all?)
I have no answers, and yet, the questions, I think, are
worth considering for a bit.
Here's another question I have no answer to.
Considering his views about other ethnicities, other skin
colours and so on,
[or how we judge them to be based on all the white
supremacist materials he's been documented to have drawn
from,]
what was his behaviour like in India?
We know he didn't change THERE because we only saw him
AFTER there-travel did not broaden his mind as regards to
others.
The only accounts he ever told was the highly-suspect
incidents involving the key to a city
(somehow, never enshrined in the way's little museum
exhibits)
and the miracle of healing of a withered hand.
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George Aar
Yeah, I know in THE CULT THAT SNAPPED there's an account of a riot due to Wierwille's presence in India. (funny that was never mentioned at WayWorld)
I DID originally mean this as a simple insult, but after I thought about it a bit, it struck me that there could have been some influence on VPW. I can see the wheels turning in his head "Sexually abuse all the women you want, but use 'Religious Service' as a cover. Hmmm, interesting..."
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Juan Cruz
George, Font of Insightful Observations,
If I were an unbeliever, I'd wanna be just like you (smart, funny, honest). Or to put slightly more biblically, "Almost thou persuadest me to disbelieve." lol
The degree of secrecy and cult acceptance vary, but you've got the seed of a good term-paper or dissertation there - not for you, silly! ...for some upperclassperson at Harvard, say, with a cross-disciplinary concentration in any of the following...
sociology/anthropology/religion/feminist studies -whatever.
I'll even produce the title:
"A Cross-cultural and Historic Comparison of Cultically Sanctioned Sexually Abusive Practices."
I want a mention in the footnotes.
jc
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GrouchoMarxJr
Mr. Wierwille seemed to have an extraordinary capacity to rationalize his sexual cravings. There's no doubt that he understood the relationship between authority and sexual license. He actually did convince himself that all the women in the kingdom belong to the king. It's no stretch at all to assume that his time in India served to reinforce his predatory sexual nature.
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WordWolf
Then again, maybe it didn't, and he didn't hear about any of this.
We know there were problems when he was in India,
and his denomination got COMPLAINTS from the locals about him.
His accounts of the complaints are all we've got.
Can we possibly count them as reliable.
I believe him when he said there were complaints, but I DON'T believe the reasons
he gave. I can only guess and speculate what the REAL complaints were about.
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Juan Cruz
There are two obstacles to the intrepid investigator.
*He was defrocked from the United Church of Christ. UCC does not defrock people for theological reasons without a major who-doo. More conservative colleagues are tolerated by even the most liberal denominations. They are not kicked out. It is almost always those who are 'too liberal' who are challenged as heretics. Any theological challenge to VP's ordination would have been a nationally known and covered case. [However, clergy are quietly defrocked for other reasons.]
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Juan Cruz
Don't be discouraged, intrepid truth-seeker.
Some retired UCC minister who served near Vic knows the whole story about the removal of Vic's ordination credentials and might share it.
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JustThinking
Juan,
Are you on the case?
JT
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WordWolf
Well,
please elaborate on the types of things they DO defrock for.
We can at least narrow the field of speculation down.
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Juan Cruz
Probably the most common reason is sexual misconduct.
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Juan Cruz
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GrouchoMarxJr
According to Veepee, he made his trip to India independant of his denomination and financed it himself. In fact, his denomination was unhappy with him going there like he did. Supposedly, Veepee was "checking out" what they were doing with the foriegn missionary money. At least this was Veepee spin on what happened as he told a small group of us once.
I suspect that his going to India was a "political move" on his part, with his denomination. He was going to be the whistle blower and expose all this fraud that he saw...his reward for all this? Who knows what Veepee was thinking at the time. He still had delusions that his "man of God" persona would operate within his beloved denomination. Perhaps he saw himself as chairman of some board that controlled large amounts of denominational funds...who knows? I think it's safe to say that his trip to India was calculated in his own mind for some self serving purpose.
I think that his whole plan blew up in his face. He got into so much trouble over there that whatever he originally had in mind, backfired in his face. I had always heard that wierwille was defrocked because of sexual indiscretions. I'm not sure of the order of events, but all this ties together in his denomination running him off. Unfortunately, this was the springboard for his starting his own cult.
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Juan Cruz
Unk, thanks for the informative post.
That whole mindset of "MOG" is so foreign to mainline denominations that, at this early point in his faithless career, it was probably still just inchoate pridefulness and outsized needyness (rather than his latter meglomania).
These, I speculate were the seeds of his faux-Mogiosity.
Post-hoc psychoanalysis!!
Yippee!
Fun and so easy!
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