As I've come to read many of the posts by believers who were personally hurt by VPW, I'm more than a little saddened. I never thought he was perfect, of course; but I knew him as the man whose class taught me to love the Word. His teachings weren't always accurate, but they were passionate and challenged me to think outside my Roman Catholic box.
I'm not like a few of the Cafe dwellers who refuse to acknowledge the wrongs he did, but I also choose to remember that MY life is better for his ministry. In the last day, all the "stubble and hay" in our lives will be burnt away, and we'll have the "gold and silver" of our lives for eternity. (1 Cor. 3:12-15) I can wait until then to find out how much of each there was.
As I've come to read many of the posts by believers who were personally hurt by VPW, I'm more than a little saddened. I never thought he was perfect, of course; but I knew him as the man whose class taught me to love the Word. His teachings weren't always accurate, but they were passionate and challenged me to think outside my Roman Catholic box.
I'm not like a few of the Cafe dwellers who refuse to acknowledge the wrongs he did, but I also choose to remember that MY life is better for his ministry. In the last day, all the "stubble and hay" in our lives will be burnt away, and we'll have the "gold and silver" of our lives for eternity. (1 Cor. 3:12-15) I can wait until then to find out how much of each there was.
I'll agree with that, and it's more or less what I've said before.
"I'm glad I got in, and I'm glad I got out." That's how I usually say it.
I am also aware of a point some other posters have made-that "his ministry", where it
blessed people, was really "BG Leonard's ministry" with the label and box switched.
I AM thankful of what I DID learn. (I'd have been more thankful if the correct label
I could agree entirely with what GeorgeStGeorge said were it not for vp's deceitful teachings that caused countless innocent babies to be aborted. That brings to mind false prophets which puts the "good" we received also in the bad fruit category (Jesus said we can't get good fruit from a bad tree).
In an attempt not to appear judgmental, I'm adding that I also believe many false prophets were at one time true prophets and when they were, they did help people and were profitable to the kingdom.
At the time he died, I was very saddened. I also thought of him as a fatherly person who really cared about the younger generation.
The real effect we have on other people is by the way we live because that is the way we convey to the world what we REALLY believe at that moment. My life is not perfect either. However, my esteem of him has changed since learning of the doctrines he espoused or lived.
Truthfully--I was so busy trying to stay afloat in the TWI of Alaska that VPW's passing provoked scarcely a ripple in my world--
Sure I saw people around me in paroxyms of grief --I was sorry he died just Like I was sorry for anyone who died but I never "worshipped" the man in way shape or form--too much sound christian doctrine in my life from before The WAy.
That was a big part of my problem in the WAY couldn't get that veneration for leadership down--that kind of veneration was reserved for GOd and Jesus Christ...........
I have come to know you through your posts, and I just wanted to say I like you...you have incredible character, my friend and if you ever decide to cross the pond, I would love to give you a hug!
Geez, that brings back memories. I think it was right before I took the class, the woman who had witnessed to me on CompuServe called me in my dorm room about 3am.
Wow, it went right by and I didn't think of it at all.... I do remember getting the late night phone call from my branch leader at the believers' home I was house-sitting at, feeding their six puppies that was their two dogs' offspring.
My branch leader said, "Are you going to be ok?"
I said yes. Inside I was thinking, "Why wouldn't I be?" It wasn't like I knew the guy. Though I felt like I should have been more upset.
Of course, since it was GOD'S MINISTRY that was based on the WORD and not men, I had no doubts that we would continue on as before. Yeah, well, we know the rest.
As I remember I too was in bed, and a family member called me from hq, saying Dr had died. I then called my tc, who already knew about it since she was corps.
I'm glad he was there to teach God's Word. I have a greater understanding and appreciation of the bible; and some things just make a whole lot more sense than what I was previously taught. Principally three things I guess: salvation by grace, Jesus Christ is not God, and dead are not alive now.
He was also a man who did harm to folks, as we all know. I think of him as a Christian man who did both good and evil. I think he realized this, and put on his gravestone sort of a self-deprecating reminder for everyone to see and remember.
As I remember I too was in bed, and a family member called me from hq, saying Dr had died. I then called my tc, who already knew about it since she was corps.
I'm glad he was there to teach God's Word. I have a greater understanding and appreciation of the bible; and some things just make a whole lot more sense than what I was previously taught. Principally three things I guess: salvation by grace, Jesus Christ is not God, and dead are not alive now.
He was also a man who did harm to folks, as we all know. I think of him as a Christian man who did both good and evil.
I see God having mercy on him, as on all of us.
I think I see eye to eye with you on this, Oldies,
except for the headstone.
I've never seen any indication that he chose out the epitaph.
If anyone was an eyewitness to that, or knows of one, please
correct me-personally, I think I'd like to know one way or the other.
I had thought the headstone read "I wish I were the man I know to be"....VPW said that phrase often in his last years....Harve Platig even sang a song by that title during corpse weeks and such,referring to VPW....
I was very hurt when vp died. I was a WOW, and out whole family was very emotional over his death. We were to be the first group of WOWs who would come "home" without being greeted at our pinning service by vpw.
Now that I no longer worship men, I see my emotions were based on immaturity and blind stupidity. I am sorry when anybody dies, but I will never think of a man in such an idolatrous way again. That WOW pin means nothing to me today except for a year of hell spent with people who used grace as a license to sin (myself included--Sorry God).
I remember I was at work the day my wife called me to give me the news of VPW's passing and I was surprised it affected me little. I was so upset when LCM was installed to carry on for VPW and that whole Athletes Production never sat well for me and was a time too I started drinking a lot to kind of blur it all out and I am trying to be respectful and I will say I did learn via VPW how to make sense of the bible and there has been worse abuse in ministries by leaders in other groups but I never went into the Corp and I never really knew the man except at WOW meetings , ROA etc, etc.I had many close friends in the CORP and some of them when they came into my town shared about the man through their perspective. I still have a hard time with some of the sexual abuses, teachings on cancer being a devil spirt, etc,etc All behind the scenes VPW that came out later or surppressed when it did happen I was for one in major denial for years and dismissed these people as dis-gruntled wayfers who were lying. His passing doesn't change that for the ones that got hurt emotionaly and maybe you think I am being harsh ? Well my opinion and I don't consider myself a VPW basher but I wish VPW would have apologized and maybe he did to some.It matters little now. Having said all that it had to be tough on him watching his ministry turn into a joke and his so called brothers in Christ who he toiled with all those years just turn their backs on him ! I feel more for the Wierwille family and to them I would say I am sorry for your Dad's passing and may you, his family have peace when you remember him. God will sort it all out I trust.I mean no dis-respect to you the Wierwille family and of course there were things I learned and maybe if there had been a better check and balance sytem like you find in a church this Way Ministry would be thriving today? maybe or maybe not !I wonder sometimes. Like it or not VPW is still part of the Body of Christ. I still believe that and this is the first time I ever posted about VPW and never thought I would because I am not good at throwing stones( not that I haven't before) but have no problem telling you what I think privately. Thanks for starting the post and at least I was able to get a trickle out on this. A date that a man of God passed and not THE MAN OF GOD !Just my opinion and thoughts.
VPW's passing seemed to close one chapter and open up another for me...I was saddened,emotionally....I had seen him teach hundreds of times,after all...But I think that was when 'the way' became an organization rather than a 'ministry' for me...
I knew people died....But I expected something more earth-shaking when he passed away....Maybe a voice from heaven that said "carry on in his footsteps" or something like that...I don't know that I thought of him still as 'the man of God' at the time,but I did look to his life as an example of believing....I wondered why he died so young,and had some physical afflictions preceding his death...I expected a longer,fuller life from somebody who seemed to be so much more connected to God than I was...I was saddened---and disappointed....
[i expected a longer,fuller life from somebody who seemed to be so much more connected to God than I was...I was saddened---and disappointed.... Yeah Simon death is a b---- and there is a line from John Lennon in working class hero that I love "As soon as your born they make you feel small by giving you no time instead of it all" I struggle with death issues but I am learning to try to make my time count and even little time I have seen in some lives by example go a long way and I have been listening to an artist named Eva Cassidy who only lived to 33 ! Her short life span made a huge impact on me and I never heard of her until my sis sent me her music. This thread too has stirred up some emotion but stll not about VPW'S life. Another line from an Emmy Lou Harris song she sings on SPY BOY cd "It don't matter where you bury me I'll be home and I'll be free "To those that VPW'S life did impact in a positive way I understand too because issues in your heart are exempt from debate and group think and even gs group think. Some of that here I have noticed but no big whoopie. My apologies too for my long *** post and I am trying to learn to get to the point.The fact that if one wanted to go to Int'l to visit VPW'S Grave I am sure he would not have been too thrilled with that some of his followers whether they are in the Way or not are denied even that simple dignified courtesy of human decency if they were to choose to visit and pay respects without a major hassle if they are not in the new kinder so called gentler TWI .Maybe I am wrong about that ? That change now ? Sorry Simon my emotions have taken over but I think VPW did have a very huge impact on his short life span.I can't say VPW impacted me in a positive manner but it wouldn't be the first or last time someone has let me down either. I did however have 2 comical way moments with VPW at a wow meeting and a street encounter at a WONY pep rally or whatever they were called. Ok another time ! lol excuse the looooooooong post!
I agree,Dougie,issues of the heart are exempt from debate...I guess it's good to look at where we were and where we are,and how we got from there to here...
Even though I was in the way since '72,I had very little personal contact with VPW...I don't believe I ever really thought of him as my "father in the word"...But I did have a great deal of respect and awe for him...Somehow,his life seemed to me to be the "living epistle" of the word and ministry that I had committed my life to...Had I been in closer contact with him during his life,I may have looked more to him for who he was rather than the "chosen one" I made him out to be...When he died,the mortality of the way ministry and all that it stood for,seemed much clearer to me...
I remember 5/20/85- that year it was Victoria Day (a Canadian holiday) pretty funny - eh??
My BC had a memorial service for him at his house and he cried - but I didn't - all I did was meet him and shake his hand a coupla times.
I remember I wished I had known him better - which is a usual thing I think when someone dies. But after reading accounts here - I am glad I didn't know him better.
Isn't it refreshing to see our priorities change after leaving a cult?
I remember stupid things being upset that I didn't get a leather bound RTHS today, not driving 250 miles to see vp when he visited our state, and not getting a picture of me with lcm when I was on staff. Before I left staff, all of these things were dung to me. I have more important things to accomplish....like spending time with my new husband and making babies..... :D-->
Thanks for your sweet words! :D--> Yes, a hug is on the cards if I can find the Smokies (guess at Tennessee)...
George:
Of course you feel more upset about losing some people more than others, but when a person has had an effect on your life it's not always easy to feel glad about it.
I cried, yes I actually cried, when I read Death of a Patriarch, even though I had been out for years and knew VPW was deceased. Something still moved me. I didn't find out other stuff about him until later, from reading posts at Grease Spot.
Hearing about the demise of Bin Ladn or of LCM might well produce a different result!
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GeorgeStGeorge
As I've come to read many of the posts by believers who were personally hurt by VPW, I'm more than a little saddened. I never thought he was perfect, of course; but I knew him as the man whose class taught me to love the Word. His teachings weren't always accurate, but they were passionate and challenged me to think outside my Roman Catholic box.
I'm not like a few of the Cafe dwellers who refuse to acknowledge the wrongs he did, but I also choose to remember that MY life is better for his ministry. In the last day, all the "stubble and hay" in our lives will be burnt away, and we'll have the "gold and silver" of our lives for eternity. (1 Cor. 3:12-15) I can wait until then to find out how much of each there was.
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WordWolf
I'll agree with that, and it's more or less what I've said before.
"I'm glad I got in, and I'm glad I got out." That's how I usually say it.
I am also aware of a point some other posters have made-that "his ministry", where it
blessed people, was really "BG Leonard's ministry" with the label and box switched.
I AM thankful of what I DID learn. (I'd have been more thankful if the correct label
had been retained, but that's a separate issue.)
=========================================================
I know some people who first heard of his death felt like their whole world collapsed.
Somewhere along the line, the concept that Jesus would return in vpw's lifetime got
spread around. Some also believed that vpw's own personal believing acted like a
sort of spiritual safety net protecting the entire U.S. while he was alive, and his
death ended that.
(IF that were true, the sensible answer, which was obvious to me at the time, was that
the amassed believing of everyone in twi was that there was a net while he was alive,
and they withdrew that believing when he died-so it was THEIR believing that maintained
the net.)
I imagine some of those people will have something to say on this.
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waterbuffalo
I could agree entirely with what GeorgeStGeorge said were it not for vp's deceitful teachings that caused countless innocent babies to be aborted. That brings to mind false prophets which puts the "good" we received also in the bad fruit category (Jesus said we can't get good fruit from a bad tree).
In an attempt not to appear judgmental, I'm adding that I also believe many false prophets were at one time true prophets and when they were, they did help people and were profitable to the kingdom.
At the time he died, I was very saddened. I also thought of him as a fatherly person who really cared about the younger generation.
The real effect we have on other people is by the way we live because that is the way we convey to the world what we REALLY believe at that moment. My life is not perfect either. However, my esteem of him has changed since learning of the doctrines he espoused or lived.
WB
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templelady
Truthfully--I was so busy trying to stay afloat in the TWI of Alaska that VPW's passing provoked scarcely a ripple in my world--
Sure I saw people around me in paroxyms of grief --I was sorry he died just Like I was sorry for anyone who died but I never "worshipped" the man in way shape or form--too much sound christian doctrine in my life from before The WAy.
That was a big part of my problem in the WAY couldn't get that veneration for leadership down--that kind of veneration was reserved for GOd and Jesus Christ...........
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Trefor Heywood
If John Donne was right we are diminished by any man's death.
A total summation of a man's life is never possible in human terms, how we balance the good and the bad and the lasting results and effects.
But it made me think of how the last brake upon his successor was gone - it was a case of apres moi, le deluge.
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jezusfreaky
Dear Tref...
I have come to know you through your posts, and I just wanted to say I like you...you have incredible character, my friend and if you ever decide to cross the pond, I would love to give you a hug!
The Smokies are beautiful in the fall!
:D-->
Sorry for the choo-choo...on with the show...
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Zixar
Geez, that brings back memories. I think it was right before I took the class, the woman who had witnessed to me on CompuServe called me in my dorm room about 3am.
"(sniff) Doctor Wierwille's dead..."
"Uhhh....Doctor who?"
And the rest is history, as they say.
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outandabout
Wow, it went right by and I didn't think of it at all.... I do remember getting the late night phone call from my branch leader at the believers' home I was house-sitting at, feeding their six puppies that was their two dogs' offspring.
My branch leader said, "Are you going to be ok?"
I said yes. Inside I was thinking, "Why wouldn't I be?" It wasn't like I knew the guy. Though I felt like I should have been more upset.
Of course, since it was GOD'S MINISTRY that was based on the WORD and not men, I had no doubts that we would continue on as before. Yeah, well, we know the rest.
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oldiesman
As I remember I too was in bed, and a family member called me from hq, saying Dr had died. I then called my tc, who already knew about it since she was corps.
I'm glad he was there to teach God's Word. I have a greater understanding and appreciation of the bible; and some things just make a whole lot more sense than what I was previously taught. Principally three things I guess: salvation by grace, Jesus Christ is not God, and dead are not alive now.
He was also a man who did harm to folks, as we all know. I think of him as a Christian man who did both good and evil. I think he realized this, and put on his gravestone sort of a self-deprecating reminder for everyone to see and remember.
I see God having mercy on him, as on all of us.
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George Aar
Trefor,
I think Donne may have been mistaken (at least in this case).
I think the world is slightly enriched with the passing of usurping a-holes. Certainly so with the self-righteous grifter's...
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WordWolf
I think I see eye to eye with you on this, Oldies,
except for the headstone.
I've never seen any indication that he chose out the epitaph.
If anyone was an eyewitness to that, or knows of one, please
correct me-personally, I think I'd like to know one way or the other.
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Tom Strange
what is on his headstone?
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WordWolf
Besides the usual name, dob and dod,
and the twi standard phrase "awaiting the return",
his headstone has the phrase
"I wish I'd been the man I knew I was",
in quotes, as if it was a direct quotation out of his mouth.
My question is-did it come out of his mouth? Did he give the direction
to have that written as his time drew to a close?
Or was it "ghost-written" by another to lend an air of piety and
humility to the headstone?
I only have guesswork, either way.
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Tom Strange
oh... he used that in one of his classes though I don't remember which one...
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simonzelotes
I had thought the headstone read "I wish I were the man I know to be"....VPW said that phrase often in his last years....Harve Platig even sang a song by that title during corpse weeks and such,referring to VPW....
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Nottawayfer
I was very hurt when vp died. I was a WOW, and out whole family was very emotional over his death. We were to be the first group of WOWs who would come "home" without being greeted at our pinning service by vpw.
Now that I no longer worship men, I see my emotions were based on immaturity and blind stupidity. I am sorry when anybody dies, but I will never think of a man in such an idolatrous way again. That WOW pin means nothing to me today except for a year of hell spent with people who used grace as a license to sin (myself included--Sorry God).
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dougie73
I remember I was at work the day my wife called me to give me the news of VPW's passing and I was surprised it affected me little. I was so upset when LCM was installed to carry on for VPW and that whole Athletes Production never sat well for me and was a time too I started drinking a lot to kind of blur it all out and I am trying to be respectful and I will say I did learn via VPW how to make sense of the bible and there has been worse abuse in ministries by leaders in other groups but I never went into the Corp and I never really knew the man except at WOW meetings , ROA etc, etc.I had many close friends in the CORP and some of them when they came into my town shared about the man through their perspective. I still have a hard time with some of the sexual abuses, teachings on cancer being a devil spirt, etc,etc All behind the scenes VPW that came out later or surppressed when it did happen I was for one in major denial for years and dismissed these people as dis-gruntled wayfers who were lying. His passing doesn't change that for the ones that got hurt emotionaly and maybe you think I am being harsh ? Well my opinion and I don't consider myself a VPW basher but I wish VPW would have apologized and maybe he did to some.It matters little now. Having said all that it had to be tough on him watching his ministry turn into a joke and his so called brothers in Christ who he toiled with all those years just turn their backs on him ! I feel more for the Wierwille family and to them I would say I am sorry for your Dad's passing and may you, his family have peace when you remember him. God will sort it all out I trust.I mean no dis-respect to you the Wierwille family and of course there were things I learned and maybe if there had been a better check and balance sytem like you find in a church this Way Ministry would be thriving today? maybe or maybe not !I wonder sometimes. Like it or not VPW is still part of the Body of Christ. I still believe that and this is the first time I ever posted about VPW and never thought I would because I am not good at throwing stones( not that I haven't before) but have no problem telling you what I think privately. Thanks for starting the post and at least I was able to get a trickle out on this. A date that a man of God passed and not THE MAN OF GOD !Just my opinion and thoughts.
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simonzelotes
VPW's passing seemed to close one chapter and open up another for me...I was saddened,emotionally....I had seen him teach hundreds of times,after all...But I think that was when 'the way' became an organization rather than a 'ministry' for me...
I knew people died....But I expected something more earth-shaking when he passed away....Maybe a voice from heaven that said "carry on in his footsteps" or something like that...I don't know that I thought of him still as 'the man of God' at the time,but I did look to his life as an example of believing....I wondered why he died so young,and had some physical afflictions preceding his death...I expected a longer,fuller life from somebody who seemed to be so much more connected to God than I was...I was saddened---and disappointed....
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dougie73
[i expected a longer,fuller life from somebody who seemed to be so much more connected to God than I was...I was saddened---and disappointed.... Yeah Simon death is a b---- and there is a line from John Lennon in working class hero that I love "As soon as your born they make you feel small by giving you no time instead of it all" I struggle with death issues but I am learning to try to make my time count and even little time I have seen in some lives by example go a long way and I have been listening to an artist named Eva Cassidy who only lived to 33 ! Her short life span made a huge impact on me and I never heard of her until my sis sent me her music. This thread too has stirred up some emotion but stll not about VPW'S life. Another line from an Emmy Lou Harris song she sings on SPY BOY cd "It don't matter where you bury me I'll be home and I'll be free "To those that VPW'S life did impact in a positive way I understand too because issues in your heart are exempt from debate and group think and even gs group think. Some of that here I have noticed but no big whoopie. My apologies too for my long *** post and I am trying to learn to get to the point.The fact that if one wanted to go to Int'l to visit VPW'S Grave I am sure he would not have been too thrilled with that some of his followers whether they are in the Way or not are denied even that simple dignified courtesy of human decency if they were to choose to visit and pay respects without a major hassle if they are not in the new kinder so called gentler TWI .Maybe I am wrong about that ? That change now ? Sorry Simon my emotions have taken over but I think VPW did have a very huge impact on his short life span.I can't say VPW impacted me in a positive manner but it wouldn't be the first or last time someone has let me down either. I did however have 2 comical way moments with VPW at a wow meeting and a street encounter at a WONY pep rally or whatever they were called. Ok another time ! lol excuse the looooooooong post!
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simonzelotes
I agree,Dougie,issues of the heart are exempt from debate...I guess it's good to look at where we were and where we are,and how we got from there to here...
Even though I was in the way since '72,I had very little personal contact with VPW...I don't believe I ever really thought of him as my "father in the word"...But I did have a great deal of respect and awe for him...Somehow,his life seemed to me to be the "living epistle" of the word and ministry that I had committed my life to...Had I been in closer contact with him during his life,I may have looked more to him for who he was rather than the "chosen one" I made him out to be...When he died,the mortality of the way ministry and all that it stood for,seemed much clearer to me...
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CircleGame
I remember 5/20/85- that year it was Victoria Day (a Canadian holiday) pretty funny - eh??
My BC had a memorial service for him at his house and he cried - but I didn't - all I did was meet him and shake his hand a coupla times.
I remember I wished I had known him better - which is a usual thing I think when someone dies. But after reading accounts here - I am glad I didn't know him better.
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Nottawayfer
Isn't it refreshing to see our priorities change after leaving a cult?
I remember stupid things being upset that I didn't get a leather bound RTHS today, not driving 250 miles to see vp when he visited our state, and not getting a picture of me with lcm when I was on staff. Before I left staff, all of these things were dung to me. I have more important things to accomplish....like spending time with my new husband and making babies.....
:D-->
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dmiller
I was on Lead in South Dakota when it happened. 19 years ago, eh? Time do fly.
I am not 100% positive, but I think our Lead "experience" was cut short by a day, or day and a half due to the passing.
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Trefor Heywood
Colleen:
Thanks for your sweet words!
:D--> Yes, a hug is on the cards if I can find the Smokies (guess at Tennessee)...
George:
Of course you feel more upset about losing some people more than others, but when a person has had an effect on your life it's not always easy to feel glad about it.
I cried, yes I actually cried, when I read Death of a Patriarch, even though I had been out for years and knew VPW was deceased. Something still moved me. I didn't find out other stuff about him until later, from reading posts at Grease Spot.
Hearing about the demise of Bin Ladn or of LCM might well produce a different result!
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