I have heard a lot of great things since I was affiliated with that group. I have heard people say things that were wrong, and yes sometimes their EGO's were bigger than their problems. But I have always confronted people face to face If I thought they were wrong. I never let people walk all over me.
quote:I have seen that people who want nothing to do with the ministry were hurt in some way by a PERSON. A person who is no different than you or I. We get hurt all the time from people but I would bet that if some one hurt you at work you would not quit, or if someone in your family hurt you I bet you would not divorce them. People are just that people who often times mess up, no one is perfect!!!
Wonder 1,
I don't think I'd have a problem going to a local fellowship if there were one by me. But I think the closest one to me is around 1 1/2 hours away. Too far.
If I went to check it out, I wouldn't send money to hq, but I'd be happy to contribute fine coffee and twinkies.
I have heard a lot of great things since I was affiliated with that group. I have heard people say things that were wrong, and yes sometimes their EGO's were bigger than their problems. But I have always confronted people face to face If I thought they were wrong. I never let people walk all over me.
Wonder1,
you can type your post under all the text if you want to respond
directly to someone's post-no need to make a separate post.
That's what I did here. As you can see, it is obvious where you
wrote and where I wrote.
I'm going to take a wild guess and suppose that you're a fairly
recent arrival to twi and an even MORE recent arrival to the
GSC. (Again, welcome.) My, my, you've certainly missed a lot of
the exciting stuff! I recommend spending some time reading
quote:Originally posted by wonder1:... But I have always confronted people face to face If I thought they were wrong. I never let people walk all over me.
That worked for me too w1, when the problems were between me and another local wayfer; the problems came about when I had issues with what was being taught at the highest levels, or with actions "leadership" took. It was a different story then.
One of the things that is evident here is that we all experienced different TWI's in greater or lesser degree, depending on where we were and who our "leaders" were.
Check out the threads that deal with TWI doctrines too, very interesting.
"I don't think I'd have a problem going to a local fellowship if there were one by me. But I think the closest one to me is around 1 1/2 hours away. Too far."
Where's your believing man? It's all in the "Synchronized Life." Stay focused and get there.
Tell you what, let's make up an imaginary ministry and see where we go with it. People staqrt ministries all the time, right?
Just for grins, let's say that the guy who starts it claims that God talked to him and confirmed his words with the likely stunt of a snowstorm on a clear warm day. The guy digs around the library and cobbles together a set of teachings. some seem right, others are demonstrably wrong, but to us it seems about the best out there. Seems like.
Let's say this founder is a sexual predator. Wait, let's not be so hasty. We'll just make him a garden variety sexual pervert. Ya know, looks at girlie magazines, visits prostitutes in cheap motels & whack off in front of them. He gets caught. Then gets caught again. Remember Swaggart? Personally, I'd say the guy should step down from public ministry and would consider his ministry totally discredited. Rememebr Jim Bakker? Afterwards, he actually had the integrity to say he was WRONG. So did Swaggart!
No, let's get more brutal. Let's go ahead and say this founder, while publicly charismatic, and teaching what we THINK are good things, is secretly a sick sexual predator. He recruits teens to his lovemobile and coerces them into sex. He does it repreatedly, over and over and over and over again. Stories from more and more hurting ladies come out about the abuses & indignities suffered under this "man of God".
Knowing the above, would you:
1. Excuse the old cad, for, after all he taught "The Word".
2. Not excuse him, but figure, what the heck, he taught "The Word"
3. Look just a bit deeper and see if God really reveals His Word to sicko sexual predators. If He really ordains longtime alcoholics. If God confirms the ministry of men that consider themselves "The Man of God of The World"
4. Leave the sinful sick mess behind and seek the Christian walk with those who honor God by their love, charity, fidelity, etc.
5. Pick your alternate option. Lord knows, many here have...
Oh, and does his behavior cast just a wee bit doubt on his teaching. If his personal life lacks such integrity, might it be possible he shucked & jived there, too?
Evan, let's not forget that Dr. Wierwille learned from men of God scattered across the continent. That means his teachings should be understood in that light. There's still lots of goodies in PFAL and other Wierwille books, despite his inappropriate conduct.
Evan, let's not forget that Dr. Wierwille learned from men of God scattered across the continent. That means his teachings should be understood in that light. There's still lots of goodies in PFAL and other Wierwille books, despite his inappropriate conduct.
>>
ah the ole "treasure , even if its stolen treasure, is still treasure" argument ? First
of all I don't know that anyone believes that
that which VPW plagiarized is necessarily
"treasure", true, or even accepted by mainstream denominations. You are acting
like the teachings of Stiles and Leonard are
like gold. Not everyone believes that.
But lets look at the early sessions of PFAL.
for example VP's teaching on believing = receiving was lifted straight from 50s pop psychology ( a la Norman Vincent Peale, Earl Nightingale, Maxwell Maltz) though many here know that it doesn't work as VPW outlined. Parental fear doesn't kill children as VPW taught in PFAL so its not like he taught us something that was even useful at least in
this area.
Lots of other ideas taught in PFAL (Is JC God ?
Are the dead alive now ? Is the trinity divine ?) are hotly debated and sometimes even
over in the doctrinal thread so its not like
people accept all those teachings as the alpha
and omega of theology.
So we have a plagiarist who assembled his spirtual platform using the works of others and
attempted to rebrand it under TWI name and via
the infamous PFAL class. Furthmore he adopted
relatively obscure teachings from others most likely to avoid ready detection by those with a general knowledge of christian teaching.
Also VPW self published allowing him the
convenience of avoiding editorial review
processes that might isolate his inadequacies
as a researcher and theologian. Anyone who has
done even 6 months of work towards any college
degree knows that proper attribution is a rule
that cannot be ignored.
VPW was just an operator trying to pull a fast one. You keep VPW's treasure if you want to but thats your choice. Your dedication to the memory of VPW is touching though it keeps you in denial about just how dishonest he was about the roots of "his" ministry and his "doctoral resarach" at the esteemed Pikes Peak Seminary.
Welcome wonder1, I hope you find what you are looking for at the caf?I know I have- myself.
In reference to your subject as to “the ministry” being perfect, and your statement that no one is perfect. I think this why my wife and I were TOLD TO LEAVE (not by our own choice- not because we felt we were hurt by anyone). Let me explain:
This was 1995-1996 and LCM’s new Way of Abundance and Power class had just been released. He had declared that the Word had gone over the World, and that he was going to lead the faithful in the household into the Promised Land of the Prevailing Word. He had also made references in teachings to how when Israel crossed over into the Promised Land there was not a weak kneed Israelite who crossed over. Perhaps he was pointing out how God had protected strengthened and healed all those who crossed over, but the way it was received by local leadership and the rest of the believers in Atlanta that only those who constantly and indefatigably strove to live up to the STANDARD OF THE WORD would be allowed to “Cross Over”. In summary the Ministry was Perfect and you had be prepared to become perfect too or else. (Any one else remember that mind set in TWI at that time?)
Anyhow here was my situation: My wife, who I had met and married in the ministry in 1986-1987 (the start of the fog years) was a diabetic and she had been since she was less than two. Now in her forties she had the kinds of deterioration that comes from long term diabetes, including kidney failure and deterioration in her central nervous system. (in 1997 a CAT scan revealed that he brain had literally shrunk and had many small scars –typical for her long term diabetes) When I brought her to Twig I had to lead her in and sometimes use a wheelchair. While she sat her eyes would close and she would relax- she was awake and could repeat every word that was spoken but she was scolded for nodding off during the teachings. I worked and spent an hour in the morning and another each evening setting up her dialysis equipment. I cooked, I cleaned as much as possible, I helped her bathe, did laundry you name it. I did the best I could but frankly I was overwhelmed and either did not realize it or would not admit it to myself or anyone else.
I could not keep the house clean enough to satisfy leadership. The bathroom needed repairs- a shower needed re-tiling so I did that. I hired people to come clean- but they did not clean well enough. Where were the rest of the household you may ask? I wonder too, wonder1 since in the past believers were always willing to help and watched out for each other, but not this time. Why wasn’t leadership spiritually aware of my wife’s physical/neurological problem? I don’t blame them but if the ministry was perfect as I believed at the time and thus its branch and limb coordinators were as close to perfect as humanly possible why did they miss it?
On to our last Twig- the branch coordinator was a special guest. I guess you could say we were the opening act. Our twig coordinator explained to us that I was not doing all I needed to remain strong in the household- basically I could not keep up with the house. The branch coordinator asked if we wanted to stay in the ministry and we both stated emphatically YES! He then said that if we had not said that he would have told us to leave and it would have been “Katie bar the door” (did he mean we would be Mark & Avoid? - I think so). He then asked us if we were willing to do what it would take to stay. I replied I’m not sure that it was possible and planned on explaining why since my wife and I were already doing all we could. (As you said wonder1 nobody’s perfect and we were about as perfect as we could be at the time- it just wasn’t perfect enough). I did not get the chance to say anything, he just told us to leave.
From then on my Wife and I staid away from believers and ex believers living in our own little world believing that the ministry was perfect, and we weren’t. We believed it wasn’t anyone’s fault but our own. When my wife died in December of 2000, we knew nothing of LCM’s adultery and his stepping down. We did not know then as I do now that a wonderful nurse who knew us from the ministry did not make herself know to us because she thought we were still “innies” since she had left before we were kicked out.
This post is longer and more involved than I had intended but I needed to say it all now for myself, Wonder1- Its one of the great things about GSC, it is a place to vent.
Let me get to my point- At the time I left I believed and I also believe that the collective thinking within the ministry was that it was perfect and getting even more perfect therefore my wife and I were not perfect (enough) to be allowed to stay. I did not then nor I do I today blame those who were involved with us when we left. My conclusion is that the quest for perfection in the ministry magnified its imperfection and the imperfection of its leaders..
However this belief in the ministries perfection left me in an exquisitely painful limbo until mid 2003 when I began to look around on the internet to see what was going on with TWI since I yearned to go back but feared the possible pain of being kicked out again more than the hollow ache of being alone. Now I know that the ministry was not perfect and its leaders weren’t either. I am beginning to move on.
I hope GSC and its regulars help you with your growth and healing (if you needed it) also.
I feel so sorry for your loss. I hope you have since recognized the irony. (It makes me angry, and sad.) While TWI leaders were demanding that you keep things as clean as one of the root locales (where there are so many Corps running around cleaning the same things over and over that a speck of dust never gets a chance to hit the ground), they were making the believers come and clean THEIR homes! Meanwhile, YOU were doing the important work of caring for your wife. If there is a bema, I can't imagine God handing out Cleanliness awards! But for Caring, He surely must.
Reminds me of the story of Mary and Martha. You chose the good part.
I only have one question, because I missed the wonderful LCM years. What the heck were we supposed to be "crossing over" TO? What the heck is "the promised land of the prevailing word?" All nine all the time? Satan never touches us, 'cause we know so much hot Bible? We live perfect lives, because the Bible is uppermost in our thoughts? Signs, miracles, and wonders because we're all giving 15% and got out of debt? Sheesh, it was so clear that victorious living was NOT in evidence, so I guess they didn't cross over after all. -->
I guess Craig was wrong, huh? The emporer had no clothes, only tights.
God’s ministry huh? The true household and the faithful remnant all living in Zion right?
I am sorry for your loss, yet I look and see a man that if I was going to choose to associate with and want to fellowship with it would be you! You and anyone else that shows such great love, devotion and commitment to a spouse through such tragedy.
I can testify to that mind set of perfection you are talking about, but allow me to clarify something here. LCM taught that, his WC cronies did not take it wrong, nor did they do a single action without his full knowledge! He did successfully distance himself so while such atrocities were happening there was always doubt he knew or backed such things.
Where was the household? They were either busy being so distracted with their own busy work to be good enough to be in the household, or they were so busy being busy-bodies reporting weakness to leaders so more people could be busy building *strength*. That and the ever present *service* to leaders, while you were confronted for lack of a clean house, the household was cleaning the leader’s house!
I have found some people that were out there on spiritual probation, faithfully writing their letters every month, isolated and to full of fear to contact any one no longer associated with TWI. Some for up to four years!
The one that wrote away for four years had a medical condition that was kept well in check by medication. But, he was weak and imperfect because he was on medication! They separated him from his family and he ended up divorced and had to fight for even simple visitation rights. With in a year of the TWI *suggested divorce, they booted his exwife. Then she was out there writing away and refusing to attempt to work things out with him, for fear it would prevent her getting back in.
And people wonder why I would prefer to see more time devoted to dealing with the *Present Truth* on this site................
Shaz- I do see the irony now, in fact when I learned of LCM's sexual escapades and VPW's, I initally felt saddened but also relieved because I recognized that the house hold cleansing was a byproduct of the spiritual filth in LCM's life. It made sense in a TwistedWayI saw.
As I understood it the believers in the ministry were crossing over from what was one "administration" that of VPW's vision of Word over the World- where everone who would believe had the opportunity to hear the rightly divided word through PFAL and the TWI to a new "administration" of The Prevailing Word. Now it was obvious that the Word was not prevailing in the world but LCM taught that the faithful believers could have the Word prevail in their lives if they followed and applied his teachings. It would be a Spiritual Paradise where the faithful household would enjoy sweet fellowship with God and signs miracles and wonders would abound. Now it looks like they traded a "patriarcal administration"- of grace that taught we were free from the law under VPW (Is this how VP excused his serial sexual exploits to himself?) to a "Law administration" under LCM where we free but had to exactly follow instructions and "suggestions" instanly to the greatest detail, and report back in detail and thank the inquisitors for their loving concern. (Is this how LCM excussed and hid from himself the sin of his own serial adultery?)
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wonder1
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wonder1
I have heard a lot of great things since I was affiliated with that group. I have heard people say things that were wrong, and yes sometimes their EGO's were bigger than their problems. But I have always confronted people face to face If I thought they were wrong. I never let people walk all over me.
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Tom Strange
wonder1, are you still "affiliated with that group"? If not, why or why not?
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oldiesman
Thanks Oakspear.
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oldiesman
Wonder 1,
I don't think I'd have a problem going to a local fellowship if there were one by me. But I think the closest one to me is around 1 1/2 hours away. Too far.
If I went to check it out, I wouldn't send money to hq, but I'd be happy to contribute fine coffee and twinkies.
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WordWolf
Wonder1,
you can type your post under all the text if you want to respond
directly to someone's post-no need to make a separate post.
That's what I did here. As you can see, it is obvious where you
wrote and where I wrote.
I'm going to take a wild guess and suppose that you're a fairly
recent arrival to twi and an even MORE recent arrival to the
GSC. (Again, welcome.) My, my, you've certainly missed a lot of
the exciting stuff! I recommend spending some time reading
thru the documents linked to the main page:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com
Here's one you might find especially interesting, to say the
least....
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/misc/adultery.htm
It tells many things. It was originally a study on what the
Bible says on adultery. It conflicts with what was told to
young women and leadership at the "root" locales. When the
contents were brought to twi's attention, leadership sat on it.
When they were no longer able to ignore it, they fired the
writer, fired anyone connected with it, and spread rumours about
them being possessed, evil, and so on. That's all because of the
contents of a paper that said "the Bible says adultery is wrong."
In any other "Christian" organization, the response would be
"yeah, no kidding-of course the Bible says adultery is wrong!"
In twi, it was controversial, and led to firing.
Doesn't that strike you as particularly odd?
The entire contents are on the link. Please review it and ask
yourself: Is this study accurately reflecting what God's Word
says about adultery?
Is this study acceptable for adults to study and review?
If you think it's UNacceptable, is it any LESS acceptable than a
class where photos of naked adults are shown, and body parts,
including slang words for the same, are discussed aloud?
If not, then I'm sure you'll have a few NEW questions when someone
suggests you take twi's class on sex, whatever they're calling
it now.
The writer of that study decided to confront people who he
concluded were wrong. Please read for yourself what the result
was.
I myself asked some questions here and there.
Ever been threatened with physical violence just for asking
questions?
I was, last time I was on grounds. It was in a context of CALM
discussion, where I was seated, calmly talking with someone over
the events up to date. Ever tell someone your conversations
were being monitored and eavesdropped on, then have an eavesdropper
prove your point by interrupting you minutes later? I did, last
time I was on grounds. The "thought police" were quite busy
enduring nothing was spoken that met with their disapproval.
Whatever you're seeing NOW in the organization is nothing but a
pale echo of what I saw, and what I saw was a pale echo of what
others saw long before that. Many of the blessings of God are
simply not allowed at "The Way", and some never were allowed.
Feel free to look around, ask honest questions, and follow up with
us. Please phrase your questions politely, and many of us will
attempt to do the same.
Please understand that some of us are still hurt and bitter, still
recovering from lives that were destroyed by people who claimed to
represent God. Some of them can't look a Bible in the face again
because of what they endured. Some of them are bitter at all
Christians because so-called Christians ruined everything they had.
Many are still quite emotional, especially when someone suggests
that what they lived thru, or witnessed with their own eyes, were
illusions, figments, lies spun out. Some people have told them
such from time to time, in attempts to ensure themselves that the
"good old days" really were as good as we were told they were.
This may mean some responses you get will be a bit charged, a bit
heated. Please take that into account.
Please also take into account that twi has periodically attempted
to pry into the private lives of people still IN that post here,
or those informing the posters, in order to expose and kick out
current "members" of the way. (Are they still claiming there are
really no members, or was that claim discarded?) So, if you want
personal information-names, phone numbers-many will NOT give them
and will expect you're here to expose them and kick them out, or to
hurt them for posting here.
These are well-documented by now. Let us know if you need some
real-life examples of any of these.
At some point, you'll want to ask yourself:
The actions twi takes-are these the actions of a Christian
organization? Is this pleasing to God? Is this how God said to
act?
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Oakspear
One of the things that is evident here is that we all experienced different TWI's in greater or lesser degree, depending on where we were and who our "leaders" were.
Check out the threads that deal with TWI doctrines too, very interesting.
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JustThinking
OM quote:
"I don't think I'd have a problem going to a local fellowship if there were one by me. But I think the closest one to me is around 1 1/2 hours away. Too far."
Where's your believing man? It's all in the "Synchronized Life." Stay focused and get there.
JT
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oldiesman
Apatheia Unbelief
I refuse to travel 1 1/2 hours to go to church.
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JustThinking
OM,
Forgot the "wink" symbol. I was just teasing.
Sorry for the omission.
JT
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TheEvan
Tell you what, let's make up an imaginary ministry and see where we go with it. People staqrt ministries all the time, right?
Just for grins, let's say that the guy who starts it claims that God talked to him and confirmed his words with the likely stunt of a snowstorm on a clear warm day. The guy digs around the library and cobbles together a set of teachings. some seem right, others are demonstrably wrong, but to us it seems about the best out there. Seems like.
Let's say this founder is a sexual predator. Wait, let's not be so hasty. We'll just make him a garden variety sexual pervert. Ya know, looks at girlie magazines, visits prostitutes in cheap motels & whack off in front of them. He gets caught. Then gets caught again. Remember Swaggart? Personally, I'd say the guy should step down from public ministry and would consider his ministry totally discredited. Rememebr Jim Bakker? Afterwards, he actually had the integrity to say he was WRONG. So did Swaggart!
No, let's get more brutal. Let's go ahead and say this founder, while publicly charismatic, and teaching what we THINK are good things, is secretly a sick sexual predator. He recruits teens to his lovemobile and coerces them into sex. He does it repreatedly, over and over and over and over again. Stories from more and more hurting ladies come out about the abuses & indignities suffered under this "man of God".
Knowing the above, would you:
1. Excuse the old cad, for, after all he taught "The Word".
2. Not excuse him, but figure, what the heck, he taught "The Word"
3. Look just a bit deeper and see if God really reveals His Word to sicko sexual predators. If He really ordains longtime alcoholics. If God confirms the ministry of men that consider themselves "The Man of God of The World"
4. Leave the sinful sick mess behind and seek the Christian walk with those who honor God by their love, charity, fidelity, etc.
5. Pick your alternate option. Lord knows, many here have...
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TheEvan
Oh, and does his behavior cast just a wee bit doubt on his teaching. If his personal life lacks such integrity, might it be possible he shucked & jived there, too?
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oldiesman
Evan, let's not forget that Dr. Wierwille learned from men of God scattered across the continent. That means his teachings should be understood in that light. There's still lots of goodies in PFAL and other Wierwille books, despite his inappropriate conduct.
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diazbro
oldiesman said:
Evan, let's not forget that Dr. Wierwille learned from men of God scattered across the continent. That means his teachings should be understood in that light. There's still lots of goodies in PFAL and other Wierwille books, despite his inappropriate conduct.
>>
ah the ole "treasure , even if its stolen treasure, is still treasure" argument ? First
of all I don't know that anyone believes that
that which VPW plagiarized is necessarily
"treasure", true, or even accepted by mainstream denominations. You are acting
like the teachings of Stiles and Leonard are
like gold. Not everyone believes that.
But lets look at the early sessions of PFAL.
for example VP's teaching on believing = receiving was lifted straight from 50s pop psychology ( a la Norman Vincent Peale, Earl Nightingale, Maxwell Maltz) though many here know that it doesn't work as VPW outlined. Parental fear doesn't kill children as VPW taught in PFAL so its not like he taught us something that was even useful at least in
this area.
Lots of other ideas taught in PFAL (Is JC God ?
Are the dead alive now ? Is the trinity divine ?) are hotly debated and sometimes even
over in the doctrinal thread so its not like
people accept all those teachings as the alpha
and omega of theology.
So we have a plagiarist who assembled his spirtual platform using the works of others and
attempted to rebrand it under TWI name and via
the infamous PFAL class. Furthmore he adopted
relatively obscure teachings from others most likely to avoid ready detection by those with a general knowledge of christian teaching.
Also VPW self published allowing him the
convenience of avoiding editorial review
processes that might isolate his inadequacies
as a researcher and theologian. Anyone who has
done even 6 months of work towards any college
degree knows that proper attribution is a rule
that cannot be ignored.
VPW was just an operator trying to pull a fast one. You keep VPW's treasure if you want to but thats your choice. Your dedication to the memory of VPW is touching though it keeps you in denial about just how dishonest he was about the roots of "his" ministry and his "doctoral resarach" at the esteemed Pikes Peak Seminary.
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excathedra
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ckeer
Welcome wonder1, I hope you find what you are looking for at the caf?I know I have- myself.
In reference to your subject as to “the ministry” being perfect, and your statement that no one is perfect. I think this why my wife and I were TOLD TO LEAVE (not by our own choice- not because we felt we were hurt by anyone). Let me explain:
This was 1995-1996 and LCM’s new Way of Abundance and Power class had just been released. He had declared that the Word had gone over the World, and that he was going to lead the faithful in the household into the Promised Land of the Prevailing Word. He had also made references in teachings to how when Israel crossed over into the Promised Land there was not a weak kneed Israelite who crossed over. Perhaps he was pointing out how God had protected strengthened and healed all those who crossed over, but the way it was received by local leadership and the rest of the believers in Atlanta that only those who constantly and indefatigably strove to live up to the STANDARD OF THE WORD would be allowed to “Cross Over”. In summary the Ministry was Perfect and you had be prepared to become perfect too or else. (Any one else remember that mind set in TWI at that time?)
Anyhow here was my situation: My wife, who I had met and married in the ministry in 1986-1987 (the start of the fog years) was a diabetic and she had been since she was less than two. Now in her forties she had the kinds of deterioration that comes from long term diabetes, including kidney failure and deterioration in her central nervous system. (in 1997 a CAT scan revealed that he brain had literally shrunk and had many small scars –typical for her long term diabetes) When I brought her to Twig I had to lead her in and sometimes use a wheelchair. While she sat her eyes would close and she would relax- she was awake and could repeat every word that was spoken but she was scolded for nodding off during the teachings. I worked and spent an hour in the morning and another each evening setting up her dialysis equipment. I cooked, I cleaned as much as possible, I helped her bathe, did laundry you name it. I did the best I could but frankly I was overwhelmed and either did not realize it or would not admit it to myself or anyone else.
I could not keep the house clean enough to satisfy leadership. The bathroom needed repairs- a shower needed re-tiling so I did that. I hired people to come clean- but they did not clean well enough. Where were the rest of the household you may ask? I wonder too, wonder1 since in the past believers were always willing to help and watched out for each other, but not this time. Why wasn’t leadership spiritually aware of my wife’s physical/neurological problem? I don’t blame them but if the ministry was perfect as I believed at the time and thus its branch and limb coordinators were as close to perfect as humanly possible why did they miss it?
On to our last Twig- the branch coordinator was a special guest. I guess you could say we were the opening act. Our twig coordinator explained to us that I was not doing all I needed to remain strong in the household- basically I could not keep up with the house. The branch coordinator asked if we wanted to stay in the ministry and we both stated emphatically YES! He then said that if we had not said that he would have told us to leave and it would have been “Katie bar the door” (did he mean we would be Mark & Avoid? - I think so). He then asked us if we were willing to do what it would take to stay. I replied I’m not sure that it was possible and planned on explaining why since my wife and I were already doing all we could. (As you said wonder1 nobody’s perfect and we were about as perfect as we could be at the time- it just wasn’t perfect enough). I did not get the chance to say anything, he just told us to leave.
From then on my Wife and I staid away from believers and ex believers living in our own little world believing that the ministry was perfect, and we weren’t. We believed it wasn’t anyone’s fault but our own. When my wife died in December of 2000, we knew nothing of LCM’s adultery and his stepping down. We did not know then as I do now that a wonderful nurse who knew us from the ministry did not make herself know to us because she thought we were still “innies” since she had left before we were kicked out.
This post is longer and more involved than I had intended but I needed to say it all now for myself, Wonder1- Its one of the great things about GSC, it is a place to vent.
Let me get to my point- At the time I left I believed and I also believe that the collective thinking within the ministry was that it was perfect and getting even more perfect therefore my wife and I were not perfect (enough) to be allowed to stay. I did not then nor I do I today blame those who were involved with us when we left. My conclusion is that the quest for perfection in the ministry magnified its imperfection and the imperfection of its leaders..
However this belief in the ministries perfection left me in an exquisitely painful limbo until mid 2003 when I began to look around on the internet to see what was going on with TWI since I yearned to go back but feared the possible pain of being kicked out again more than the hollow ache of being alone. Now I know that the ministry was not perfect and its leaders weren’t either. I am beginning to move on.
I hope GSC and its regulars help you with your growth and healing (if you needed it) also.
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excathedra
i'm really really sorry ((((((((ckeer))))))))
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JustThinking
Ckeer,
Some posts leave me at a loss for words. I'm glad you found your way here.
JT
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shazdancer
(((((((ckeer)))))))
I feel so sorry for your loss. I hope you have since recognized the irony. (It makes me angry, and sad.) While TWI leaders were demanding that you keep things as clean as one of the root locales (where there are so many Corps running around cleaning the same things over and over that a speck of dust never gets a chance to hit the ground), they were making the believers come and clean THEIR homes! Meanwhile, YOU were doing the important work of caring for your wife. If there is a bema, I can't imagine God handing out Cleanliness awards! But for Caring, He surely must.
Reminds me of the story of Mary and Martha. You chose the good part.
I only have one question, because I missed the wonderful LCM years. What the heck were we supposed to be "crossing over" TO? What the heck is "the promised land of the prevailing word?" All nine all the time? Satan never touches us, 'cause we know so much hot Bible? We live perfect lives, because the Bible is uppermost in our thoughts? Signs, miracles, and wonders because we're all giving 15% and got out of debt? Sheesh, it was so clear that victorious living was NOT in evidence, so I guess they didn't cross over after all.
-->
I guess Craig was wrong, huh? The emporer had no clothes, only tights.
Regards,
Shaz
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ckeer
Thanks all- that was something I needed to share
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outandabout
ckeer, I hope you finally came to realize that the "ministry" was out to lunch, not you and your wife. How cruel they were, how shallow.
Crossing over to WHAT? What was that all about?
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Tom Strange
People like that really suck... I'm so glad I believe in Karma...
They'll all be pretty surprised (maybe) when they find out they've been on the wrong side...
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Grizzy
ckeer,
God’s ministry huh? The true household and the faithful remnant all living in Zion right?
I am sorry for your loss, yet I look and see a man that if I was going to choose to associate with and want to fellowship with it would be you! You and anyone else that shows such great love, devotion and commitment to a spouse through such tragedy.
I can testify to that mind set of perfection you are talking about, but allow me to clarify something here. LCM taught that, his WC cronies did not take it wrong, nor did they do a single action without his full knowledge! He did successfully distance himself so while such atrocities were happening there was always doubt he knew or backed such things.
Where was the household? They were either busy being so distracted with their own busy work to be good enough to be in the household, or they were so busy being busy-bodies reporting weakness to leaders so more people could be busy building *strength*. That and the ever present *service* to leaders, while you were confronted for lack of a clean house, the household was cleaning the leader’s house!
I have found some people that were out there on spiritual probation, faithfully writing their letters every month, isolated and to full of fear to contact any one no longer associated with TWI. Some for up to four years!
The one that wrote away for four years had a medical condition that was kept well in check by medication. But, he was weak and imperfect because he was on medication! They separated him from his family and he ended up divorced and had to fight for even simple visitation rights. With in a year of the TWI *suggested divorce, they booted his exwife. Then she was out there writing away and refusing to attempt to work things out with him, for fear it would prevent her getting back in.
And people wonder why I would prefer to see more time devoted to dealing with the *Present Truth* on this site................
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ckeer
Shaz- I do see the irony now, in fact when I learned of LCM's sexual escapades and VPW's, I initally felt saddened but also relieved because I recognized that the house hold cleansing was a byproduct of the spiritual filth in LCM's life. It made sense in a TwistedWayI saw.
As I understood it the believers in the ministry were crossing over from what was one "administration" that of VPW's vision of Word over the World- where everone who would believe had the opportunity to hear the rightly divided word through PFAL and the TWI to a new "administration" of The Prevailing Word. Now it was obvious that the Word was not prevailing in the world but LCM taught that the faithful believers could have the Word prevail in their lives if they followed and applied his teachings. It would be a Spiritual Paradise where the faithful household would enjoy sweet fellowship with God and signs miracles and wonders would abound. Now it looks like they traded a "patriarcal administration"- of grace that taught we were free from the law under VPW (Is this how VP excused his serial sexual exploits to himself?) to a "Law administration" under LCM where we free but had to exactly follow instructions and "suggestions" instanly to the greatest detail, and report back in detail and thank the inquisitors for their loving concern. (Is this how LCM excussed and hid from himself the sin of his own serial adultery?)
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