Yet TWI demanded perfection from its followers and especially from its way corps trainees.
Also, somehow your reasoning of letting people off the hook because they're not perfect fits fine with me. Yet, if I or any follower of TWI were to ever give that as an excuse for an error committed...we would have NEVER heard the end of it.
It would have been an endless barrage of 'You're not committed enough .. that's why you slipped up.' or 'You didn't read you're word enough, that's why you missed that detail' or simply...'where's your head at!!!' or 'God told you, you just weren't listening' ad nauseum. The pat answer phrases are endless.
It's all well and dandy to forgive the hurts that others have done but when the other side holds it against you and because of your little blunder now has genuine suspicion for you .. it sure makes it difficult to have a healthy relationship with such a monster.
Welcome wonder1 Make yourself at home here at the ol' cafe!
Do you mind if I address your post? Thanks:
quote:I have seen that people who want nothing to do with the ministry were hurt in some way by a PERSON
Well, you are partly right. There are people here who want nothing to do with The Way International, but there is more than one reason:
Hurt by another PERSON, as you stated
Decided that the doctrines that were taught were incorrect
Saw that the general practices of the leadership did not line up with what was taught, let alone what the bible said
Were thrown out, and have no choice about having anything to do with The Way International (TWI)
I'm sure there are others, but the preceding are some general catagories
I invite you to visit the "My Story" forum which is about halfway down the page. Read the stories from those of us who relate why we are now "out".
quote:We get hurt all the time from people but I would bet that if some one hurt you at work you would not quit
Oh, I wouldn't be so sure wonder. If my employer lied to me, tried to get between me and my sweetie, and verbally abused me the way leaders in TWI did, I most certainly WOULD quit.
quote:or if someone in your family hurt you I bet you would not divorce them
Actually, now that you bring it up, I AM divorced, in large part due to the machinations of TWI "leadership". But I get your point. If I was to remarry I would not divorce her simply over a hurt.
But in a marriage you have made a lifetime committment, who made a lifetime committment to TWI? Not me. They always told us we couldn't join anyway!
Perhaps you could argue that a committment to God was made. I doubt that you could make a convincing argument that a committment to TWI = a committment to God.
Please feel free to make these arguments if that is where your heart is. We'll pretty much listen to you and treat you nicely as long as you don't say stuff like we're "off the Word", or "outside the walls of Zion" :D-->
You ask is the Ministry perfect Yes the Ministry of Jesus Christ is perfect but no man rule Ministry or man founded Ministry is perfect
I have not gave up on the Way people because they are in a fleshly Church nor will I ever give up on helping others get out of worldly temples or ministries like the Way is
I gave up on the temple of the Way and have traded it for the Temple of the truth Chruch the Temple of Christ in me
Now going to Churches or Ministries of men is not wrong but making it your temple is
Christ is the head not VPW The Christ in you is the Temple
When the Way try to be head of us it sin as a group of people standing together
Churches are just to be places sons of God stand together as a group
If the Way would stop asking for money and begin to give it to the poor in the Way they learn the truth
Then they would have real riches but the Way will not
As for the many ones that say they do not believe in Ministries any more do not worry because most or all still love God
quote: but I would bet that if some one hurt you at work you would not quit,
Wonder1 - amen and amen, yer right! ;)-->
But if some one hurt me at work -- and believe me, it has happened, I would expect to at least be able to discuss it with them, and work things out.
If I had been a reputable employee, I would expect them to listen to what my concerns were, and not just fly off the handle, and quit. But if that person (employer/whoever) would not listen, or even discuss the problem, then yes -- quitting would be an option, if no constructive dialouge was forthcoming.
FYI -- I was never hurt by a person, but rather by the doctrine from twi. And when I decided to question it back in 1985, it was they who told me I was not welcome. In essence, it was they who left me, because I (a person) "hurt them" with my "doubts".
I had been a "faithful employee" (if you will) for them from 1975, and it didn't really feel good to be banned from fellowship, once I started asking questions. :(-->
As you said (accurately) no one is perfect. My personal story is much more "harmless" than many of those you can read on this site, but I can say with all sincerity (which is no guarantee of truth), that they left me, and not vice versa.
I have seen that people who want nothing to do with the ministry were hurt in some way by a PERSON. A person who is no different than you or I. We get hurt all the time from people but I would bet that if some one hurt you at work you would not quit, or if someone in your family hurt you I bet you would not divorce them. People are just that people who often times mess up, no one is perfect!!!
It is very true that "no one is perfect." By nature human beings will always fall short of perfection.
However, people were not just hurt by "people" acting on their own. Many more were also hurt by people acting in an official capacity while carrying out the policies and doctrines of "the ministry".
What has happend and continues to happen to people in The Way Internatinal cannot be written off or swept under the rug by rationalizing that the blame lies with the person that hurt you -- and then even further rationalized that, "Oh well, no body's perfect, lets not lay any blame at "the ministry".
Since God created us as imperfect beings, your argument when taken to it's least common denominator, is kind of like Adam telling God:
"The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate."
It is TWI's harshness, lack of compassion and knowingly ungodly policies, (among other things) that are the reason folks have "divorced" TWI. Not simply because they got hurt by an imperfect person.
So to answer your question - no "the ministry" is not perfect. IMO is it no even a "ministry" at all. It just pretends to be one.
I have to agree with the other posters...what drove many ofus out of twi was so much more than simply a person.
Actually many of us were forced to leave...Any of us who ever stood up and said "No"...when ordered by the mog to obey an ungodly edict...were promptly marked and avoided...others of us were simply ignored and not told when the fellowship moved to a different location....simply because our lack of obediance made us spiritually suspicious....
Many of us never *left& the ministry...it left us.
For me it wasn't a matter of whether TWI was perfect or not. There just was no reason to stay, and I realized it had been that way for a long long time.
The "ministry" took and took from its followers and gave NOTHING to them.
quote:I have seen that people who want nothing to do with the ministry were hurt in some way by a PERSON. A person who is no different than you or I. We get hurt all the time from people but I would bet that if some one hurt you at work you would not quit, or if someone in your family hurt you I bet you would not divorce them. People are just that people who often times mess up, no one is perfect!!!
Wonder1, thanks for your opinion. Unfortunately, since it doesn't harmonize with the accusitive finger-pointing, perpetually accentuate-everything-evil about TWI mindset of some posters, it really has no value here. Maybe some, put it'll be squashed soon enough.
Hey buddy, don't let the door hit your butt too hard upon your departure.
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
You are correct: many who left did so because of people. I left primarily because everyone I knew was leaving at the same time, and because my personal investigation (scant as it was) led me to believe that staying was not the godly thing to do. I praise God I was never hurt in the way so many others were.
But another significant reason to leave is doctrinal: I do not buy TWI's take on tithing, on "the law of" believing, or on a slew of other, significant issues. I don't foresee changing their minds about those issues, so if I'm going to be honest, I'm not going to stay.
I would like to say those doctrinal issues are the reason I left, but they're not. I came to those conclusions later. But they are the reason I would continue to stay away, even if TWI really did become "kinder and gentler." For all I know, TWI already is kinder and gentler. But I've moved on. And, for me, that's okay.
I don't require TWI to be perfect. Lord knows I'm not. Neither is CES, CBC, Restoration Fellowship, or any other ministry. I just have no desire to re-join TWI only to be constantly reminded that, in their uninformed opinion, I'm robbing God because I don't fork over thousands of dollars to their coffers every year.
Yeah, I might add ....nobody yet has called to tell where they moved the fellowship to....or indicated that I am spiritually sharp enough to be invited to participate with the spiritual elite again....
I DID run unexpectedly into a long time, one time BEST twi friend from another state a thousand miles away...recently.....though they lived in a state far away...though both of us had moved several times since knowing each other in twi....in spite of meeting in a state we were temporarily visiting...in a location that neither of us knew the other was in....after not seeing each other for 15 years...they wouldn`t even let me take them to lunch...or come to my home or had any desire to meet the 6 children that had been born to me since our last get together.... despite the fact that when we had known and very much loved ...and were respected and loved BY the *believer* while we were *in* for years......sigh I still am not *good* enough for one of the household to risk the contamination of hanging out with one who isn`t spiritually worthey....
But why would you want to hang out with anyone from twi now, anyway? you think they're involved in a never changing, mind controlling, abusive cult that you have nothing but contempt for, right? (please correct me if I'm wrong, I wouldn't want to falsely accuse you of anything, thereby lying). maybe they realize things aren't the same between you, don't want to argue with you and just figure it's best to move on?
quote:Wonder1, thanks for your opinion. Unfortunately, since it doesn't harmonize with the accusitive finger-pointing, perpetually accentuate-everything-evil about TWI mindset of some posters, it really has no value here. Maybe some, put it'll be squashed soon enough.
The POINT was oldies.....that it isn`t a QUESTION of me not cutting the ministry any slack because of a person who hurt me... sweet heart....
The POINT was, that twi doesn`t want OR need me back.... that because of the state of my spiritual degradation...I am no longer considered to be worthy to be a friend to one who is in.
I doubt one could make an argument that any group is perfect or even close. Maybe you could say one is perfect for you? That's about it.
Otherwise, I'll just say that I agree with Raf and Outandabout. No real reason to stay as there wasn't much there. Just a little, keep to themselves Bible-worshippers with delusions of grandeur.
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Tom Strange
wonder1: I see you're new here... welcome!
But I fail to see the point between
and an organization that methodically plotted and planned to take advantage of folks under the guise of a "christian ministry"...Link to comment
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A la prochaine
Wonder 1,
Welcome to Greasespot.
Yes you are correct, no one is perfect.
Yet TWI demanded perfection from its followers and especially from its way corps trainees.
Also, somehow your reasoning of letting people off the hook because they're not perfect fits fine with me. Yet, if I or any follower of TWI were to ever give that as an excuse for an error committed...we would have NEVER heard the end of it.
It would have been an endless barrage of 'You're not committed enough .. that's why you slipped up.' or 'You didn't read you're word enough, that's why you missed that detail' or simply...'where's your head at!!!' or 'God told you, you just weren't listening' ad nauseum. The pat answer phrases are endless.
It's all well and dandy to forgive the hurts that others have done but when the other side holds it against you and because of your little blunder now has genuine suspicion for you .. it sure makes it difficult to have a healthy relationship with such a monster.
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Oakspear
Welcome wonder1
Make yourself at home here at the ol' cafe!
Do you mind if I address your post? Thanks:
Well, you are partly right. There are people here who want nothing to do with The Way International, but there is more than one reason:- Hurt by another PERSON, as you stated
- Decided that the doctrines that were taught were incorrect
- Saw that the general practices of the leadership did not line up with what was taught, let alone what the bible said
- Were thrown out, and have no choice about having anything to do with The Way International (TWI)
- I'm sure there are others, but the preceding are some general catagories
I invite you to visit the "My Story" forum which is about halfway down the page. Read the stories from those of us who relate why we are now "out". Oh, I wouldn't be so sure wonder. If my employer lied to me, tried to get between me and my sweetie, and verbally abused me the way leaders in TWI did, I most certainly WOULD quit. Actually, now that you bring it up, I AM divorced, in large part due to the machinations of TWI "leadership". But I get your point. If I was to remarry I would not divorce her simply over a hurt.But in a marriage you have made a lifetime committment, who made a lifetime committment to TWI? Not me. They always told us we couldn't join anyway!
Perhaps you could argue that a committment to God was made. I doubt that you could make a convincing argument that a committment to TWI = a committment to God.
Please feel free to make these arguments if that is where your heart is. We'll pretty much listen to you and treat you nicely as long as you don't say stuff like we're "off the Word", or "outside the walls of Zion"
:D-->
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Oakspear
oh...and I REALLY try to avoid calling TWI "the ministry"
:D-->
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year2027
God
Hi Wonder1
Wecome here God bless your heart
You ask is the Ministry perfect Yes the Ministry of Jesus Christ is perfect but no man rule Ministry or man founded Ministry is perfect
I have not gave up on the Way people because they are in a fleshly Church nor will I ever give up on helping others get out of worldly temples or ministries like the Way is
I gave up on the temple of the Way and have traded it for the Temple of the truth Chruch the Temple of Christ in me
Now going to Churches or Ministries of men is not wrong but making it your temple is
Christ is the head not VPW The Christ in you is the Temple
When the Way try to be head of us it sin as a group of people standing together
Churches are just to be places sons of God stand together as a group
If the Way would stop asking for money and begin to give it to the poor in the Way they learn the truth
Then they would have real riches but the Way will not
As for the many ones that say they do not believe in Ministries any more do not worry because most or all still love God
All we can do is love each other
with love Roy
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dmiller
Wonder1 - amen and amen, yer right!
;)-->
But if some one hurt me at work -- and believe me, it has happened, I would expect to at least be able to discuss it with them, and work things out.
If I had been a reputable employee, I would expect them to listen to what my concerns were, and not just fly off the handle, and quit. But if that person (employer/whoever) would not listen, or even discuss the problem, then yes -- quitting would be an option, if no constructive dialouge was forthcoming.
FYI -- I was never hurt by a person, but rather by the doctrine from twi. And when I decided to question it back in 1985, it was they who told me I was not welcome. In essence, it was they who left me, because I (a person) "hurt them" with my "doubts".
I had been a "faithful employee" (if you will) for them from 1975, and it didn't really feel good to be banned from fellowship, once I started asking questions.
:(-->
As you said (accurately) no one is perfect. My personal story is much more "harmless" than many of those you can read on this site, but I can say with all sincerity (which is no guarantee of truth), that they left me, and not vice versa.
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dmiller
Oh -- I forgot to mention -- Welcome to GreaseSpot!!
:)--> 
:)-->
(You're making waves already!).
;)-->
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Goey
It is very true that "no one is perfect." By nature human beings will always fall short of perfection.
However, people were not just hurt by "people" acting on their own. Many more were also hurt by people acting in an official capacity while carrying out the policies and doctrines of "the ministry".
What has happend and continues to happen to people in The Way Internatinal cannot be written off or swept under the rug by rationalizing that the blame lies with the person that hurt you -- and then even further rationalized that, "Oh well, no body's perfect, lets not lay any blame at "the ministry".
Since God created us as imperfect beings, your argument when taken to it's least common denominator, is kind of like Adam telling God:
"The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate."
It is TWI's harshness, lack of compassion and knowingly ungodly policies, (among other things) that are the reason folks have "divorced" TWI. Not simply because they got hurt by an imperfect person.
So to answer your question - no "the ministry" is not perfect. IMO is it no even a "ministry" at all. It just pretends to be one.
Welcome to Greasespot !
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rascal
I`ll add my greetings wonder....welcome to gspot.
I have to agree with the other posters...what drove many ofus out of twi was so much more than simply a person.
Actually many of us were forced to leave...Any of us who ever stood up and said "No"...when ordered by the mog to obey an ungodly edict...were promptly marked and avoided...others of us were simply ignored and not told when the fellowship moved to a different location....simply because our lack of obediance made us spiritually suspicious....
Many of us never *left& the ministry...it left us.
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outandabout
For me it wasn't a matter of whether TWI was perfect or not. There just was no reason to stay, and I realized it had been that way for a long long time.
The "ministry" took and took from its followers and gave NOTHING to them.
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Tom Strange
Well... I left them... a corrupt and twisted organization who's goal was not "Word Over the World" as advertised...
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oldiesman
Wonder1, thanks for your opinion. Unfortunately, since it doesn't harmonize with the accusitive finger-pointing, perpetually accentuate-everything-evil about TWI mindset of some posters, it really has no value here. Maybe some, put it'll be squashed soon enough.
Hey buddy, don't let the door hit your butt too hard upon your departure.
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
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Raf
Wonder,
Welcome. How would you like your coffee?
You are correct: many who left did so because of people. I left primarily because everyone I knew was leaving at the same time, and because my personal investigation (scant as it was) led me to believe that staying was not the godly thing to do. I praise God I was never hurt in the way so many others were.
But another significant reason to leave is doctrinal: I do not buy TWI's take on tithing, on "the law of" believing, or on a slew of other, significant issues. I don't foresee changing their minds about those issues, so if I'm going to be honest, I'm not going to stay.
I would like to say those doctrinal issues are the reason I left, but they're not. I came to those conclusions later. But they are the reason I would continue to stay away, even if TWI really did become "kinder and gentler." For all I know, TWI already is kinder and gentler. But I've moved on. And, for me, that's okay.
I don't require TWI to be perfect. Lord knows I'm not. Neither is CES, CBC, Restoration Fellowship, or any other ministry. I just have no desire to re-join TWI only to be constantly reminded that, in their uninformed opinion, I'm robbing God because I don't fork over thousands of dollars to their coffers every year.
God Bless You.
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rascal
Yeah, I might add ....nobody yet has called to tell where they moved the fellowship to....or indicated that I am spiritually sharp enough to be invited to participate with the spiritual elite again....
I DID run unexpectedly into a long time, one time BEST twi friend from another state a thousand miles away...recently.....though they lived in a state far away...though both of us had moved several times since knowing each other in twi....in spite of meeting in a state we were temporarily visiting...in a location that neither of us knew the other was in....after not seeing each other for 15 years...they wouldn`t even let me take them to lunch...or come to my home or had any desire to meet the 6 children that had been born to me since our last get together.... despite the fact that when we had known and very much loved ...and were respected and loved BY the *believer* while we were *in* for years......sigh I still am not *good* enough for one of the household to risk the contamination of hanging out with one who isn`t spiritually worthey....
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oldiesman
But why would you want to hang out with anyone from twi now, anyway? you think they're involved in a never changing, mind controlling, abusive cult that you have nothing but contempt for, right? (please correct me if I'm wrong, I wouldn't want to falsely accuse you of anything, thereby lying). maybe they realize things aren't the same between you, don't want to argue with you and just figure it's best to move on?
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Oakspear
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Oakspear
Was this a drive-by posting? Or will wonder be back?
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oldiesman
Oakspear, I don't think I ever tried carp so I can't even be full of it.
How do you get italics in your quote, buddy?
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Oakspear
same way that you get them in a post precede it with and end it with
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Oakspear
"Buddy?"
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Oakspear
it's a figure of speech...switch the order of "a" and "r" and watcha get?
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GarthP2000
Well, you could tilt your monitor to the side a little bit, ... and there ya go, italics.
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rascal
The POINT was oldies.....that it isn`t a QUESTION of me not cutting the ministry any slack because of a person who hurt me... sweet heart....
The POINT was, that twi doesn`t want OR need me back.... that because of the state of my spiritual degradation...I am no longer considered to be worthy to be a friend to one who is in.
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JustThinking
To answer the question in the name of the post:
No Freakin' Way! (Could be a pun or tag line)
Wonder, I'll add my welcome.
I doubt one could make an argument that any group is perfect or even close. Maybe you could say one is perfect for you? That's about it.
Otherwise, I'll just say that I agree with Raf and Outandabout. No real reason to stay as there wasn't much there. Just a little, keep to themselves Bible-worshippers with delusions of grandeur.
JT
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