IT'S NOT TRUE! IT JUST IS NOT TRUE! SHUT UP, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU!! VPW WAS THE BEST MOGFART THIS WORLD HAS HAD SINCE THE FIRST CENTURY! HE TAUGHT THE WORD LIKE IT HASN'T BEEN TAUGHT SINCE THE FIRST CENTURY!!!
pay no attention to the books people say he plagarized.
pay no attention to the women he abused.
pay no attention to the first hand accounts of his cruelty.
pay no attention to the facts.
pay no attention to the facts.
pay no attention to the FACTS.
The man refused to marry inter-racial couples and even went so far as to suggest inter-cultural couples shouldn't marry. craiggers himself talked about learning this from vee pee pee and also enforced it. It was very very rare to see people of color in twi and I can't think of one inter-racial couple.
Wow! Some of this was before my time so it's good to know. We heard #11 about Jewish bankers at our Advanced Class. It was run by LCM but still used VPW's video. Not sure which one said it.
Also, the Jews and Pope helped to instigate the Civil War. They were in cahoots with the Illuminati according to LCM. (Caution, I don't have my notes so this is an old memory)
Aww, I'm sure you're not lying about what you saw and heard. Just don't think it's the complete picture, is all. Either that wasn't the "policy" you thought it was, or it was the policy and someone defied it.
I just remembered a second interracial couple, married by TWI.
I once asked about the very vanilla look of TWI. The response was "black culture" has never really responded to God's Word. It was quite a surprise to me given the rich history of black churches in America. When I asked if playing country music at TWI events in major urban areas was a good idea, I was told "that's what HQ wants us to play." I know lots of minority teens who love "the fiddle." (Said as his eyes roll)
This was TWI II but it doesn't sound any different. Same kind of answers to why we don't do music that would appeal to people who aren't white, over 25 and from the midwest. NOOOO interest at all. Just the question made all the other people (all white, over 25 and middle class) uncomfortable.
I'll add my two couples. However, the focus of their marriage counseling was whether it was a good idea to get married to each other. My perception though was that it wasn't done just to discourage them. It was to get them to consider (along with everything else) the potential cultural differences and agree ahead of time on how to handle them.
So on a field level, it didn't seem bad IF you were both AC grads. Reaching out to minorities though? Never saw it.
TWI loved to trumpet Zaire and the work Rev. Bayunga Nioka-Simbi was doing over there. Of course, those were African-Africans, not African-Americans.
If a "whites-preferred" policy existed, it didn't permeate the entire organization, at least not while I was in it. Our twigs were usually at least half non-Caucasian.
Actually, not only did TWI leadership not want to reach out to minorities, but they actively chased them off. I remember a Spanish-speaking fellowship in my area that was closed down by Michael Fart (the fact that it made it all the way to him is a bad sign as well) because he felt that if they wanted to live in the U.S. and learn about "God's word" then they should learn English. Granted, this statement was given to me second-hand, but I do know first-hand that even though it was the only area that had a lot of outreach it was still shut down. I guess TWI doesn't want migrant workers and others that don't have a lot of money to join. I'm not sure if this occurred with Radar O'Reilly was around here, because I was very young at the time and didn't really have much insight into what was going on.
If a "whites-preferred" policy existed, it didn't permeate the entire organization, at least not while I was in it. Our twigs were usually at least half non-Caucasian.
The same holds true for me, but it wasn't so much because of the leadership. We did have some good Corps people who I know were 100% non-racist, up to the limb level that I can personally vouch for. However, thinking back, in the TWI fellowship that I grew up in, we had one black guy that was witnessed to which ended up bringing his girlfriend and eventually she broke up with him and brought another boyfriend and her sister, and about fifty thousand little kids. There was also another black woman that was in TWI from a long time ago that came back and ended up in my fellowship. There were a few others as well, and they didn't seem to be discriminated against in any way by the local and state leadership. Of course, when considering the situation with the Spanish speaking fellowship, it looks like the racism came mainly from the top.
I recall the Spanish language fellowships in NY and NJ flourishing. Again, late 1980s.
Sounds like someone was either sending or receiving mixed signals.
This was a bit later than that, so things may have changed. Also, an attempt was made to split the people up and get them into English speaking fellowships, but since a good number of them didn't understand English, they got tired of it and left.
I don't really feel like giving details here but if anyone wants to discuss it I will be less vague via private topics.
quote:The man refused to marry inter-racial couples and even went so far as to suggest inter-cultural couples shouldn't marry. craiggers himself talked about learning this from vee pee pee and also enforced it. It was very very rare to see people of color in twi and I can't think of one inter-racial couple.
Insurgent, i did see them they did exist. Geeze, one of the best men of God I knew, Ken Barden (black), married Evelyn (white). And they were both corps. If Victor Paul was a white Supremacist, why did he allow Ken in the Corps? Your false accusations against Mr. Wilerwille are stinky.
TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow.
quote:Goey, ha ha ... you got me there... ok there are some Christians who are racists, but we in TWI weren't among them...
Speak for yourself Oldies.
Of course TWI was not *officially* racist. And many of the followers were not either.
However, I was aquainted with a certain Limb Leader reverend (80-81?) who used the "N" word quite often in regards to blacks. He despised blacks , and discouraged witnessing to them. I was there.
TWI was not "officially" racist, i.e. there was nothing in writing or even verbally promulgated that minorities were to be excluded
There were minorities involved in TWI, including in leadership positions
There were outreach efforts directed at minorities and follow up in the way of available fellowships
None of this proves that Wierwille wasn't a racist. A racist can observe all the outward societal conventions but still hold hatred or contempt in his heart for those who are different. Often a racist will have a neighbor or co-worker who is a minority, but who he deems "different" than the rest.
Wierwille admits in The Way, Living in Love that he had a problem with blacks since his brother died as a result of a car crash involving a black man.
IMHO it is not realistic to maintain that Wierwille was not prejudiced against Jews. It would have been enough to cite Koestler's Thirteenth Tribe as an academic point, but what was the point about constantly bringing up modern Jews' lack of connection to the biblical Jews? So what?
I don't think thats true that vpw was not racist...does anyone remember when a certain I think 7th corps black man married a white woman and what happened?
I'm asking because if my memory serves me right he was not happy about it.
Vickles, I don't remember that specific incident, but I do recall Wierwille and Vince Finnegan at Corps week 1981 discussing inter-racial marriages and telling folks that it was not "best", that it did not contribute to the furtherance of "the Word", so people shouldn't do it.
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insurgent
IT'S NOT TRUE! IT JUST IS NOT TRUE! SHUT UP, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU!! VPW WAS THE BEST MOGFART THIS WORLD HAS HAD SINCE THE FIRST CENTURY! HE TAUGHT THE WORD LIKE IT HASN'T BEEN TAUGHT SINCE THE FIRST CENTURY!!!
pay no attention to the books people say he plagarized.
pay no attention to the women he abused.
pay no attention to the first hand accounts of his cruelty.
pay no attention to the facts.
pay no attention to the facts.
pay no attention to the FACTS.
The man refused to marry inter-racial couples and even went so far as to suggest inter-cultural couples shouldn't marry. craiggers himself talked about learning this from vee pee pee and also enforced it. It was very very rare to see people of color in twi and I can't think of one inter-racial couple.
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JustThinking
Sunesis,
Wow! Some of this was before my time so it's good to know. We heard #11 about Jewish bankers at our Advanced Class. It was run by LCM but still used VPW's video. Not sure which one said it.
Also, the Jews and Pope helped to instigate the Civil War. They were in cahoots with the Illuminati according to LCM. (Caution, I don't have my notes so this is an old memory)
JT
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Raf
I'm aware of one interracial couple married by TWI in the 1980s.
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insurgent
Well there you go, Raf, we're liars. Every one of us.
;)-->
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Raf
Aww, I'm sure you're not lying about what you saw and heard. Just don't think it's the complete picture, is all. Either that wasn't the "policy" you thought it was, or it was the policy and someone defied it.
I just remembered a second interracial couple, married by TWI.
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JustThinking
Insurgent,
I once asked about the very vanilla look of TWI. The response was "black culture" has never really responded to God's Word. It was quite a surprise to me given the rich history of black churches in America. When I asked if playing country music at TWI events in major urban areas was a good idea, I was told "that's what HQ wants us to play." I know lots of minority teens who love "the fiddle." (Said as his eyes roll)
This was TWI II but it doesn't sound any different. Same kind of answers to why we don't do music that would appeal to people who aren't white, over 25 and from the midwest. NOOOO interest at all. Just the question made all the other people (all white, over 25 and middle class) uncomfortable.
JT
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JustThinking
Raf,
I'll add my two couples. However, the focus of their marriage counseling was whether it was a good idea to get married to each other. My perception though was that it wasn't done just to discourage them. It was to get them to consider (along with everything else) the potential cultural differences and agree ahead of time on how to handle them.
So on a field level, it didn't seem bad IF you were both AC grads. Reaching out to minorities though? Never saw it.
JT
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Trefor Heywood
I seem to recall reading in the Way Rag an article abour "Ebony Outreach"...
Sounded very condescending.
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oldiesman
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Goey
Chritistian Separatists
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Zixar
TWI loved to trumpet Zaire and the work Rev. Bayunga Nioka-Simbi was doing over there. Of course, those were African-Africans, not African-Americans.
If a "whites-preferred" policy existed, it didn't permeate the entire organization, at least not while I was in it. Our twigs were usually at least half non-Caucasian.
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Mister P-Mosh
Actually, not only did TWI leadership not want to reach out to minorities, but they actively chased them off. I remember a Spanish-speaking fellowship in my area that was closed down by Michael Fart (the fact that it made it all the way to him is a bad sign as well) because he felt that if they wanted to live in the U.S. and learn about "God's word" then they should learn English. Granted, this statement was given to me second-hand, but I do know first-hand that even though it was the only area that had a lot of outreach it was still shut down. I guess TWI doesn't want migrant workers and others that don't have a lot of money to join. I'm not sure if this occurred with Radar O'Reilly was around here, because I was very young at the time and didn't really have much insight into what was going on.
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Raf
I recall the Spanish language fellowships in NY and NJ flourishing. Again, late 1980s.
Sounds like someone was either sending or receiving mixed signals.
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Mister P-Mosh
The same holds true for me, but it wasn't so much because of the leadership. We did have some good Corps people who I know were 100% non-racist, up to the limb level that I can personally vouch for. However, thinking back, in the TWI fellowship that I grew up in, we had one black guy that was witnessed to which ended up bringing his girlfriend and eventually she broke up with him and brought another boyfriend and her sister, and about fifty thousand little kids. There was also another black woman that was in TWI from a long time ago that came back and ended up in my fellowship. There were a few others as well, and they didn't seem to be discriminated against in any way by the local and state leadership. Of course, when considering the situation with the Spanish speaking fellowship, it looks like the racism came mainly from the top.
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Mister P-Mosh
This was a bit later than that, so things may have changed. Also, an attempt was made to split the people up and get them into English speaking fellowships, but since a good number of them didn't understand English, they got tired of it and left.
I don't really feel like giving details here but if anyone wants to discuss it I will be less vague via private topics.
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oldiesman
TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow.
-Zixar
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WordWolf
Sounds to me like another case where there were more blessings on the field
than at headquarters.
Then again, NY in general periodically made rude gestures in the direction
of conformity. Not that we weren't tricked plenty of times, just that you
had to be subtle-overt pressure to conform gets a knee-jerk reaction in
the Big Apple and points nearby. (I can't speak for what went on
upstate, but the Spanish fellowships were NYC all the way.)
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oldiesman
Goey, ha ha ... you got me there... ok there are some Christians who are racists, but we in TWI weren't among them...
TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow.
-Zixar
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Tom Strange
Zixar! it took me a while.. but you're busted!
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Goey
Speak for yourself Oldies.
Of course TWI was not *officially* racist. And many of the followers were not either.
However, I was aquainted with a certain Limb Leader reverend (80-81?) who used the "N" word quite often in regards to blacks. He despised blacks , and discouraged witnessing to them. I was there.
Goey
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Oakspear
- TWI was not "officially" racist, i.e. there was nothing in writing or even verbally promulgated that minorities were to be excluded
- There were minorities involved in TWI, including in leadership positions
- There were outreach efforts directed at minorities and follow up in the way of available fellowships
None of this proves that Wierwille wasn't a racist. A racist can observe all the outward societal conventions but still hold hatred or contempt in his heart for those who are different. Often a racist will have a neighbor or co-worker who is a minority, but who he deems "different" than the rest.Wierwille admits in The Way, Living in Love that he had a problem with blacks since his brother died as a result of a car crash involving a black man.
IMHO it is not realistic to maintain that Wierwille was not prejudiced against Jews. It would have been enough to cite Koestler's Thirteenth Tribe as an academic point, but what was the point about constantly bringing up modern Jews' lack of connection to the biblical Jews? So what?
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vickles
I don't think thats true that vpw was not racist...does anyone remember when a certain I think 7th corps black man married a white woman and what happened?
I'm asking because if my memory serves me right he was not happy about it.
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Oakspear
Vickles, I don't remember that specific incident, but I do recall Wierwille and Vince Finnegan at Corps week 1981 discussing inter-racial marriages and telling folks that it was not "best", that it did not contribute to the furtherance of "the Word", so people shouldn't do it.
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ckeer
I think that VP's identification with Patton can blamed on Rock and Roll. Specifically the Rolling Stones
Sympathy for the Devil
(sorry I couldn't help myself,the devil made me do it)
:o-->
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