You wrote: “If there were many claims that users found the carburetor of the 1952 Ford Snowhopper to be inferior and problematic, would you accuse them of focusing on negatives? (Maybe I shouldn't ask...)”
Maybe you should ask Craig… and get this back on topic.
I come in here and post my piece, ON TOPIC, with my heart included (labeled an advertisement) and people pile on me who just can’t stand to have a contradictor on the premises (like how TWI is always accused of behaving). Then I am accused of derailing because I answer back my accusers!
If some of you people had the power to ban me (M&A in TWI lingo?) you’d certainly do it without as much as a second thought, then turn right around on this thread or another and complain how Craig would do the same things.
...I didn’t assume you lack the true God’s blessings, I OBSERVED it. When people are blessed they talk about positive things, and are not attracted to negatives and do not amplify negatives...When people wallow in negatives they lack the True God’s blessings. This happens to me sometimes too, and then I bring my mind back to … … … you know what.
Mike, that is utter b.s.
While it is true that when people are blessed they talk about those blessings, that does not preclude talking about the evil that is out there.
You observed nothing about templelady's life. You made an assumption based on your own world-view.
quote:If you think the passing along of only one side of a story without due process is not gossip, then let’s invent a special word for it, and I will not partake in that either.
Uh Mike? ... Isn't that about all you do - pass along only one side of the story and shut you mind to "due process" (other side(s)). You have have even admitted it.
One standard for Mike - another standard for everyone else. -- Hypocrite.
No, that’s not what I do. I spent 11 years investigating, from 1987 to 1998, without making up my mind. Then, after all the pertinent data was familiar to me or re-familiarized, I made my informed decision with God’s help.
Now I stick to my decision, especially since I have not seen any new data for the “other” side for years.
Part of my mission here is to bring to the table data that has been obviously forgotten by most here or that had slipped by most here SO THAT they can make an informed decision, rather than an enflamed emotional decision.
The “due process” I was referring to is the kind of filtering of improper data, like courts do, and having the accused speak for themselves to include in the data. In order for the accused to feel free to come here they would have to see that’s a civilized process they’re walking into, not a kangaroo court filled with hate mongers.
Nearly all of the accusations I’ve placed at the feet of top leadership here I have freely admitted to being guilty of myself.
My original post on this thread was to express my interest in reconciling with Craig, and helping him recover as my brother.
Now, wyh don't we bring this to the "Masters" thread in the Doctrinal Forum to hash it out and allow this topic to continue. I've been warming up after my vacation and am ready to go at it there.
I just saw your post above Goey’s. I still want to leave this thread, but will quickly respond.
You wrote: “Mike, that is utter b.s. _ While it is true that when people are blessed they talk about those blessings, that does not preclude talking about the evil that is out there. _ You observed nothing about templelady's life. You made an assumption based on your own world-view.”
I will admit this. As I was working it occurred to me that I don’t know templelady very well or her previous incarnation here as Maure. I did assume that she fit in with the rest of the hate mongering mob here, but I do know that there are exceptions. I think I did make an assumption, but it wasn’t based on my world-view, but on my GreaseSpot view. Many here have exhibited a mob mentality as they post.
When characters are typed on the screen, and there are no emoticons to indicate otherwise, I sometimes catch myself supplying negative emotion where the typist may have had none. I’ve seen this effect played out on me too, so I’ve started using more emoticons.
I'm often under multiple attack here, where one person is very charged up negatively and another is not. Lumping the two together is pretty hard to avoid in the heat of battle.
I’ll say this to you, templelady, if I supplied the wrong emotion/attitude to go along with your words I apologize.
I know that an “iffy” apology like that is not satisfying to some (some require blood) then I suggest you post (not on this thread, but the “Masters” thread in the Doctrinal Dungeon) a string of positive, Word based, life affirming, God-glorified URLs of templelady’s heart, then I’ll be motivated to see if there’s not ten times as many negative posts in her portfolio. She may get my full verbal apology (no blood) based on the data. This way I’ll get to know her a bit, too.
I once promoted strongly the idea that born-again children of God could not be possessed. You make me reconsider it when I read your stuff.
Wierwille's PFAL was not God-breathed. Most of it was copied and plagiarized from people like BG Leonard, J Stiles, and many more. Not just inspired by...illegally lifted and put into print as if it was his own. The class is the same portrayal of writings he copied.
I am happy you are willing to forgive LCM. There will be many having a tough time with that and your example on that part is good. I admit, we must all TRY to lose our bitterness of the past.
But if you ask LCM to return to PFAL, it is like asking him to start it all over again. I believe the best thing for Craig is to begin new and restructure his life and put the past behind him and move on, even if he has to join a church. It will be too tough for ex-Way people to trust him into their own fellowships so for him a low profile is best where people do not know him and don't know what he did, especially to women under his pastorship.
If he has to look at God's Word, then I suggest he just read the Bible and humble himself to what others have to say now. PFAL is being proven inaccurate day by day.
Please see that while you try to keep your spiritual side of forgiveness, you can lose the "way brain" at the same time.
I mean this in all honesty, forthrightness, and caring.
"Gaslight" means to declare a person did or said something she didn't, or to deny you said/did something you did, in order to make the other person appear crazy. Especially effective when there's no witnesses to rebut the declaration.
I have come to learn that your failures at TWI are typical of the human condition of not having been born with spirit,
I don't think Craig's failures were at all typical. They were/are pretty extraordinary.
But it's common for people with a fundamentalist view of things to see the world as black or white with no variance. Reminds me of a president who said something to the effect of "If you're not with us, you're against us."
If you believe that people and actions are either "on the word" or "off the word" then there is no room for a whole range of motivations from mistaken, to misguided, to deliberatly evil, to narsacistic. Nor is there room for complicity or responsability. With this belief you loose site of how a person can be a victim of another and at the same time can have done things (or neglected to do things) that prolong that victimization.
This is a very comforting way to view the world for many people. That is why they follow and/or lead in organizations like the way. Logic is futile to changing those world views. People change when they feel more comfortable changing their views than sticking with the old ones.
You wrote: “I don't think Craig's failures were at all typical. They were/are pretty extraordinary.”
Yes they were not typical or even comparable with ours, but they were still typical for those rare individuals who have THAT much power in their hands. I think if any of us had been given that much power we would have screwed it up even worse than Craig. Like I said, we had differing symptoms from Craig's, but we all had the same end result of not being able to effectively and consistently operate the revelation manifestations, which leads to an inability to operate the importation manifestations. In this we are in the same boat as Craig.
***
You wrote: “But it's common for people with a fundamentalist view of things to see the world as black or white with no variance.”
Yes again. I was pretty shocked when I re-read the “Fellowship Is the Secret” chapter in TNDC. In there it’s very plain that fellowship is NOT a black and white thing, but has many shades of gray in between. The richness or fullness of our fellowship with the Father and His Son are laid out often in that chapter. It was the TVT (Twi’s Verbal Tradition) that very starkly portrayed fellowship as either “in” or “out.”
***
You wrote: “If you believe that people and actions are either "on the word" or "off the word" then there is no room for a whole range of motivations from mistaken, to misguided, to deliberatly evil, to narsacistic.”
Yes again. I’ve several times posted here that I see a mental model of Craig and people like Craig being like the pilot in the 60’s movie “Fail Safe” in their misapplication of training. Unlike that movie, though, I think Craig can recover from this, even Craig. There IS a way.
3 cents must have his ideological moments (tho rare I'm sure). Perhaps he hates torture for more than purely rational reasons?
Mike must have his reasonable moments. Perhaps he sometimes entertains doubts about the divinely revealed nature of PFAL before remiring hisself once again.
quote:I think if any of us had been given that much power we would have screwed it up even worse than Craig.
Speak for yourself. If I had had that much power, I would have given that "power" back, because I never felt that leaders should lord it over the flock. The greatest leader is the greatest servant, and all that....
I think we’re saying the same thing when we align our nomenclature.
The power I was talking about was legitimate 5-senses authority he was handed over the materials, the properties, and the expenditures, not people. This did include payroll for those who volunteered for such service, and directing the teaching programs.
I think the power you were talking about was the corrupt, self-serving kind of power that relied on fear, and where upper leaders were getting fake “revelation” about underlings personal lives in the 5-senses organization that was none of the leaders’ business.
SOMEONE had to be given the legitimate power of the 5-senses corporation, so giving this back would only mean someone else got it. As I showed on another thread here, this kind of 5-senses power was the ONLY power Dr gave him in his installation. That thread is called “News Flash! LCM Never Installed Spiritual Leader of The Way!” and can be found at:
I’m convinced that only someone who had reached the “all nine all the time” stage could long resist the adversary’s seductions in stewarding TWI and all that power. The reason we have records of people like Eve, David, and Solomon, who were GREAT believers at one time, is to show us that without the accurate Word and the spiritual power, none of us humans are any match against the adversary. We all drift from the Word and get burned, it’s just a matter of time. I believe Craig was chosen by revelation because God knew he could withstand the many pressures the longest. I can think of many more mechanisms of corrupting the Word we were given in PFAL that are FAR more subtle than sex scandals, yet far more devastating to the body spiritually. I’m making an educated guess on these kinds of ‘what-if’s, but some day in the not-too-distant future we will all find out for sure.
I disagree. Even if given the "power" of the organization and its assets, payroll, etc., I like to think I would not abuse it.
Heck, I've been in supervisory positions in business. I also work with children, very often without a witness in the room. I didn't take advantage of my employees, financially or otherwise. I worked as hard as they did, and they respected me for that. I looked after their needs. And if I begin to overstep my bounds in the instruction of children, no one needs to tell me to rethink. I do it myself.
It's called a conscience.
I think that "power corrupts" only those who are looking to take advantage, and hadn't yet had an opportunity.
That would be Craig. He was convinced he was entitled.
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excathedra
i think bally boy works for UPS also
WordWolf
Mike,
On an auto-parts message board,
would you accuse the posters of being obsessed with their cars and
thinking of nothing else, if that's all they posted about?
No,
that's what the board is FOR.
That's them using the board for its intended purpose.
If there were many claims that users found the carburetor of the
1952 Ford Snowhopper to be inferior and problematic,
would you accuse them of focusing on negatives?
(Maybe I shouldn't ask...)
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Tom Strange
Ya know... I had a 1952 Ford Snowhopper once... and I NEVER had a problem with the carburetor...
... now the fuel pump, that's another story!
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Mike
WordWolf,
You wrote: “If there were many claims that users found the carburetor of the 1952 Ford Snowhopper to be inferior and problematic, would you accuse them of focusing on negatives? (Maybe I shouldn't ask...)”
Maybe you should ask Craig… and get this back on topic.
I come in here and post my piece, ON TOPIC, with my heart included (labeled an advertisement) and people pile on me who just can’t stand to have a contradictor on the premises (like how TWI is always accused of behaving). Then I am accused of derailing because I answer back my accusers!
If some of you people had the power to ban me (M&A in TWI lingo?) you’d certainly do it without as much as a second thought, then turn right around on this thread or another and complain how Craig would do the same things.
The whole world is watching.
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Oakspear
While it is true that when people are blessed they talk about those blessings, that does not preclude talking about the evil that is out there.
You observed nothing about templelady's life. You made an assumption based on your own world-view.
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Goey
Mike Posted:
Uh Mike? ... Isn't that about all you do - pass along only one side of the story and shut you mind to "due process" (other side(s)). You have have even admitted it.One standard for Mike - another standard for everyone else. -- Hypocrite.
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Mike
Goey,
So, another derailing you want to drag me into?
No, that’s not what I do. I spent 11 years investigating, from 1987 to 1998, without making up my mind. Then, after all the pertinent data was familiar to me or re-familiarized, I made my informed decision with God’s help.
Now I stick to my decision, especially since I have not seen any new data for the “other” side for years.
Part of my mission here is to bring to the table data that has been obviously forgotten by most here or that had slipped by most here SO THAT they can make an informed decision, rather than an enflamed emotional decision.
The “due process” I was referring to is the kind of filtering of improper data, like courts do, and having the accused speak for themselves to include in the data. In order for the accused to feel free to come here they would have to see that’s a civilized process they’re walking into, not a kangaroo court filled with hate mongers.
Nearly all of the accusations I’ve placed at the feet of top leadership here I have freely admitted to being guilty of myself.
My original post on this thread was to express my interest in reconciling with Craig, and helping him recover as my brother.
Now, wyh don't we bring this to the "Masters" thread in the Doctrinal Forum to hash it out and allow this topic to continue. I've been warming up after my vacation and am ready to go at it there.
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Mike
Oakspear,
I just saw your post above Goey’s. I still want to leave this thread, but will quickly respond.
You wrote: “Mike, that is utter b.s. _ While it is true that when people are blessed they talk about those blessings, that does not preclude talking about the evil that is out there. _ You observed nothing about templelady's life. You made an assumption based on your own world-view.”
I will admit this. As I was working it occurred to me that I don’t know templelady very well or her previous incarnation here as Maure. I did assume that she fit in with the rest of the hate mongering mob here, but I do know that there are exceptions. I think I did make an assumption, but it wasn’t based on my world-view, but on my GreaseSpot view. Many here have exhibited a mob mentality as they post.
When characters are typed on the screen, and there are no emoticons to indicate otherwise, I sometimes catch myself supplying negative emotion where the typist may have had none. I’ve seen this effect played out on me too, so I’ve started using more emoticons.
I'm often under multiple attack here, where one person is very charged up negatively and another is not. Lumping the two together is pretty hard to avoid in the heat of battle.
I’ll say this to you, templelady, if I supplied the wrong emotion/attitude to go along with your words I apologize.
I know that an “iffy” apology like that is not satisfying to some (some require blood) then I suggest you post (not on this thread, but the “Masters” thread in the Doctrinal Dungeon) a string of positive, Word based, life affirming, God-glorified URLs of templelady’s heart, then I’ll be motivated to see if there’s not ten times as many negative posts in her portfolio. She may get my full verbal apology (no blood) based on the data. This way I’ll get to know her a bit, too.
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Eagle
Hi Mike and God Bless,
I once promoted strongly the idea that born-again children of God could not be possessed. You make me reconsider it when I read your stuff.
Wierwille's PFAL was not God-breathed. Most of it was copied and plagiarized from people like BG Leonard, J Stiles, and many more. Not just inspired by...illegally lifted and put into print as if it was his own. The class is the same portrayal of writings he copied.
I am happy you are willing to forgive LCM. There will be many having a tough time with that and your example on that part is good. I admit, we must all TRY to lose our bitterness of the past.
But if you ask LCM to return to PFAL, it is like asking him to start it all over again. I believe the best thing for Craig is to begin new and restructure his life and put the past behind him and move on, even if he has to join a church. It will be too tough for ex-Way people to trust him into their own fellowships so for him a low profile is best where people do not know him and don't know what he did, especially to women under his pastorship.
If he has to look at God's Word, then I suggest he just read the Bible and humble himself to what others have to say now. PFAL is being proven inaccurate day by day.
Please see that while you try to keep your spiritual side of forgiveness, you can lose the "way brain" at the same time.
I mean this in all honesty, forthrightness, and caring.
God Bless.
Eagle
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templelady
Your apology is accepted
What I find Annoying about you isn't what you believe--that's your business --I don't agree -that's life
What I find annoying is your PI of what I and Many others say--My original post was about VPW being a blessing
Yet I get such things as the following out of you
Again HUH???
Just stick to what I actually post and I will be more willing to listen to your viewpoint --don't say I'll agree but will feel much less cornered.
As It is I feel like you are trying to "gaslight" me
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Mike
templelady,
That’s a new idiom for me: gaslight. What does it mean?
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Mike
Eagle,
I've made a note to answer your post soon on the Masters thread.
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shazdancer
Mike,
"Gaslight" means to declare a person did or said something she didn't, or to deny you said/did something you did, in order to make the other person appear crazy. Especially effective when there's no witnesses to rebut the declaration.
Shaz
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My3Cents
I don't think Craig's failures were at all typical. They were/are pretty extraordinary.
But it's common for people with a fundamentalist view of things to see the world as black or white with no variance. Reminds me of a president who said something to the effect of "If you're not with us, you're against us."
If you believe that people and actions are either "on the word" or "off the word" then there is no room for a whole range of motivations from mistaken, to misguided, to deliberatly evil, to narsacistic. Nor is there room for complicity or responsability. With this belief you loose site of how a person can be a victim of another and at the same time can have done things (or neglected to do things) that prolong that victimization.
This is a very comforting way to view the world for many people. That is why they follow and/or lead in organizations like the way. Logic is futile to changing those world views. People change when they feel more comfortable changing their views than sticking with the old ones.
Mike, I wish you the best.
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Mike
My3Cents,
Thank you, and I wish the same for you.
You wrote: “I don't think Craig's failures were at all typical. They were/are pretty extraordinary.”
Yes they were not typical or even comparable with ours, but they were still typical for those rare individuals who have THAT much power in their hands. I think if any of us had been given that much power we would have screwed it up even worse than Craig. Like I said, we had differing symptoms from Craig's, but we all had the same end result of not being able to effectively and consistently operate the revelation manifestations, which leads to an inability to operate the importation manifestations. In this we are in the same boat as Craig.
***
You wrote: “But it's common for people with a fundamentalist view of things to see the world as black or white with no variance.”
Yes again. I was pretty shocked when I re-read the “Fellowship Is the Secret” chapter in TNDC. In there it’s very plain that fellowship is NOT a black and white thing, but has many shades of gray in between. The richness or fullness of our fellowship with the Father and His Son are laid out often in that chapter. It was the TVT (Twi’s Verbal Tradition) that very starkly portrayed fellowship as either “in” or “out.”
***
You wrote: “If you believe that people and actions are either "on the word" or "off the word" then there is no room for a whole range of motivations from mistaken, to misguided, to deliberatly evil, to narsacistic.”
Yes again. I’ve several times posted here that I see a mental model of Craig and people like Craig being like the pilot in the 60’s movie “Fail Safe” in their misapplication of training. Unlike that movie, though, I think Craig can recover from this, even Craig. There IS a way.
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Juan Cruz
clear, beautiful reason
vs.
ideological mud
side by side...
almost looks black or white! lol
but i know it's not
3 cents must have his ideological moments (tho rare I'm sure). Perhaps he hates torture for more than purely rational reasons?
Mike must have his reasonable moments. Perhaps he sometimes entertains doubts about the divinely revealed nature of PFAL before remiring hisself once again.
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shazdancer
Mike,
You said...
Speak for yourself. If I had had that much power, I would have given that "power" back, because I never felt that leaders should lord it over the flock. The greatest leader is the greatest servant, and all that....Shaz
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Mike
Shaz,
I think we’re saying the same thing when we align our nomenclature.
The power I was talking about was legitimate 5-senses authority he was handed over the materials, the properties, and the expenditures, not people. This did include payroll for those who volunteered for such service, and directing the teaching programs.
I think the power you were talking about was the corrupt, self-serving kind of power that relied on fear, and where upper leaders were getting fake “revelation” about underlings personal lives in the 5-senses organization that was none of the leaders’ business.
SOMEONE had to be given the legitimate power of the 5-senses corporation, so giving this back would only mean someone else got it. As I showed on another thread here, this kind of 5-senses power was the ONLY power Dr gave him in his installation. That thread is called “News Flash! LCM Never Installed Spiritual Leader of The Way!” and can be found at:
http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=9...9442#2276059442
I’m convinced that only someone who had reached the “all nine all the time” stage could long resist the adversary’s seductions in stewarding TWI and all that power. The reason we have records of people like Eve, David, and Solomon, who were GREAT believers at one time, is to show us that without the accurate Word and the spiritual power, none of us humans are any match against the adversary. We all drift from the Word and get burned, it’s just a matter of time. I believe Craig was chosen by revelation because God knew he could withstand the many pressures the longest. I can think of many more mechanisms of corrupting the Word we were given in PFAL that are FAR more subtle than sex scandals, yet far more devastating to the body spiritually. I’m making an educated guess on these kinds of ‘what-if’s, but some day in the not-too-distant future we will all find out for sure.
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Tom Strange
"remiring"???
Juan! I think you've just invented a word!
congratulations son! you're a father!
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Mike
Someday it will grow up to be a sentence, and then maybe even a paragraph.
;)-->
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excathedra
i'm embarrassed to say that my last post gives credence clear water revival to that doctrine
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Tom Strange
well then myseestorEx... we better "run for the jungle"!
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shazdancer
Mike,
I disagree. Even if given the "power" of the organization and its assets, payroll, etc., I like to think I would not abuse it.
Heck, I've been in supervisory positions in business. I also work with children, very often without a witness in the room. I didn't take advantage of my employees, financially or otherwise. I worked as hard as they did, and they respected me for that. I looked after their needs. And if I begin to overstep my bounds in the instruction of children, no one needs to tell me to rethink. I do it myself.
It's called a conscience.
I think that "power corrupts" only those who are looking to take advantage, and hadn't yet had an opportunity.
That would be Craig. He was convinced he was entitled.
Shaz
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WordWolf
Yes, Mike.
We're aware you're under the impression that vpw only surrendered
the legal, visible and titular aspects of the organization to
lcm, all evidence to the contrary. A separate issue is that
only vpw declared vpw had any further authority than that to
bestow. That's courtesy of the thread:
"Newsflash: vpw never installed spiritual leader of twi!"
We also know that YOU'RE convinced that only some sort of
spiritual superman could resist abusing an office.
The rest of us-we're not convinced. Some of us HAVE held
trusts and offices-and NEVER abused them. Some of us know
leaders who'd never THINK to abuse their office.
The shepherd gives his life for the sheep.
It DOES give me pause at the thought of what YOU would do if
handed the reins, since you're so sure anybody'd fall....
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Tom Strange
WW said:
good point WW, but I think you left out a word... "since you're so sure anybody ELSE would fail..."Link to comment
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