Does anyone know (or think they know) where the expression "It's Greek to me" comes from?
I have my own good guess but I wonder what else is out there.
Now, on topic... considering that most of the pronounciation 'rules' for Bible Greek that are/were used in TWI were put into writing by a Dutch scholar, shouldn't we be just a bit suspect. And given that much of what TWI taught has been proven to be anything BUT "the rightly divided word," why on earth would we care to pronounce words according to their definitions of "correctness"?
Simply put, Greek pronounciations were absolutley slaughtered in TWI. Not even close to correct MOST of the time. As a matter of fact,... oh never mind.
Dunno about the phrase "Greek to me." Probably just a reference to any language you don't know sounding like gobbledygook. Coulda said, "sounds like tongues to me," I guess.
As to Greek pronunciations, I would go with Geek's explanations on page 1. He didn't learn them from TWI. Neither did I. In fact, I notice that some of his diphthong list comes straight from "New Testament Greek for Beginners" by J.G.Machen, who was a professor of the New Testament at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia. I don't think that book was ever available in The Way Bookstore. At least, that's not where I bought it.
Wierwille didn't pronounce correctly because he didn't pay attention to learning it. Or he had a speech/learning impediment. And if so, what were we doing listening to him on other matters?
As for VPW's accent, my father was born and raised in the same region of Ohio, and he never spoke as hicked-up as VPW. Nor do any of my other Ohio-native relatives, all of whom still live in the vicinity of Dayton. If there's an Ohio accent, that isn't it.
accent when it suited his purposes. Preachers and public speakers typically have stock public speaking mechanisms they employ and over time it becomes automatic to them.
During the High Country Caravan phase I recall hearing Way people from like Oregon copping southern accents or at least employing a few southern phrases. Perhaps they though this was what the ministry wanted but it sounded very strange.
I had a friend who was a rock singer and he later went on to lead a Way prods group that
was C&W based though his accent was affected.
He was southern yes thats true but he darn sure
wouldn't have picked the C&W vibe unless someone in leadership had told him to.
I remember living down south for years. I didn't want to get a southern accent but get it I did. When I got home to visit everyone couldn't get over the accent. It was gone after being with them several days.
I didn't do it on purpose it just happened. I have to laugh now thinking about that southern accent.
I thought I remembered it but I had to double check to be sure. "It's Greek to me" comes from no less a literary giant than William Shakespeare himself.
"The Tragey of Julius Caesar" Act 1 Scene 2 - near the end of the scene.
CASSIUS Did Cicero say any thing?
CASCA Ay, he spoke Greek.
CASSIUS To what effect?
CASCA Nay, an I tell you that, Ill ne'er look you i' the
face again: but those that understood him smiled at
one another and shook their heads; but, for mine own
part, it was Greek to me. I could tell you more
news too: Marullus and Flavius, for pulling scarfs
off Caesar's images, are put to silence. Fare you
well. There was more foolery yet, if I could
remember it.
Concerning Greek pronounciations. Ask a Greek :)-->
My husband is Greek - he is first generation American - his parents came to America via Ellis Island. Greek was his first language and still the language he speaks with his mother and other relatives. He's teaching it to me so that when we go over to Greece to visit (some day soon) I will be able to converse with his relatives.
We're attempting to raise our son in a bilingual household - it's a challenge. I've picked up a little Greek (the language, not the kid) and it is a very guttural language. I've also found it to have many words that sound like what they really are (onomatopoeia). For example, "snore" in Greek is "v'Rule, v'Rule" (phonic spelling, of course) or "fart" is "pru-TZ, pru-TZ" (again, phonic spelling).
Classical Greek is like Latin - it's a dead language. No one knows how it is supposed to sound. Erasmus, a Dutch scholar, is the one who decided how Classical Greek should be spoken. The language was "sung" more than spoken, by scholars’' guesses. So, really the way that VPW spoke the language isn't really debatable. Yes, by Modern Greek standards, he was off in his pronunciations, but that's not what he was teaching, was it?
My husband's family is from a village in the mountains near Thesslonique. They speak what he describes as "West Virginia Greek" - there is different pronunciations to words that mean the same thing - it's less formal. I assume it's much like the way we Yankees think about the Southerners and their pronunciation of certain words ("y'all" vs. "you all").
By the way, the Greeks have their own version of "It's Greek to me!" - they say "It's Chinese to me!" (I'm not making this up - it's true!)
That seems to be the consensus outside of Greece. Here, of course, the Greeks tend to think any 'barbarian' trying to tell them how their language is supposed to be pronounced is ... well, ridiculous. After all, the language has arrived (albeit in an evolved manner as in all 'living' languages) from ancient times and there are groups of Greeks that have been isolated or separated (Asia Minor Pontiacs for instance) that speak an entirely different dialect than do Greeks in Greece, however there are similarities. Also, Cretans have a strong (unique) dialect.
In the Greek Orthodox church, however, the service is done in an older (Koine?) form of Greek, based on centuries and centuries of tradition. Much like the Catholics doing a service in Latin. Many people here don't understand every word but there are quite a few (like my wife) who have had a classical eduaction with 6 years of ancient and koine Greek study who do understand the services.
As CUF pointed out. The agreed upon pronunciations seem to have come from a Dutch scholar. To my mind, the people that have had thousands of years of tradition speaking the same language and who to this day do services in the form of the language from as old as, if not older than, the 3rd century A.D. are the ones most likely to tell us the "proper" pronounciation.
So again I say if you want to know how a Greek word is pronounced...ask a Greek.
ChasU.,
I know your husbands dialect well! They simply cut the endings off many of the words. Ex. Speeti (house) becomes Speet. And yes, the Greeks do say it's chinese to me.
A modern English-speaking person, upon encountering a passage of Middle English text, would have a hard time pronouncing the words, let alone understanding what it says. And a paragraph of Old English would completely confound him.
The same holds true of Classic Greek, Koin?reek, and Modern Greek, as you know. I would be curious as to which form is spoken in the church, and how the pronunciations are maintained -- oral tradition, or some other?
I guess the point here is that the pronunciations of Biblical (Koin?Greek words have a scholarly tradition in the Western world, albeit from a Dutch scholar. Perhaps he is wrong to the modern Greek ear, or wrong to the ancient ear. But nonetheless, those pronunciations are the accepted ones. Wierwille didn't take the time to listen and get it right.
His inattentiveness in this area, when he demanded attention to detail out of everyone else, makes his other claims suspect.
'Course, maybe he got his pronunciations directly from God, when he was receiving the rest of PFAL, eh, Mike? -->
Recommended Posts
Greek2me
Quick question.
Does anyone know (or think they know) where the expression "It's Greek to me" comes from?
I have my own good guess but I wonder what else is out there.
Now, on topic... considering that most of the pronounciation 'rules' for Bible Greek that are/were used in TWI were put into writing by a Dutch scholar, shouldn't we be just a bit suspect. And given that much of what TWI taught has been proven to be anything BUT "the rightly divided word," why on earth would we care to pronounce words according to their definitions of "correctness"?
Simply put, Greek pronounciations were absolutley slaughtered in TWI. Not even close to correct MOST of the time. As a matter of fact,... oh never mind.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustThinking
Greek2me,
For me, I just don't know if the pronunciation is correct or not. If anyone can recommend a good book for laymen, it would be much appreciated.
JT
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
HI Greek2Me,
Dunno about the phrase "Greek to me." Probably just a reference to any language you don't know sounding like gobbledygook. Coulda said, "sounds like tongues to me," I guess.
As to Greek pronunciations, I would go with Geek's explanations on page 1. He didn't learn them from TWI. Neither did I. In fact, I notice that some of his diphthong list comes straight from "New Testament Greek for Beginners" by J.G.Machen, who was a professor of the New Testament at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia. I don't think that book was ever available in The Way Bookstore. At least, that's not where I bought it.
Wierwille didn't pronounce correctly because he didn't pay attention to learning it. Or he had a speech/learning impediment. And if so, what were we doing listening to him on other matters?
Regards,
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve!
Nope, JT, it is not your imagination.
One vivid example is when docvic(praise be his name) was talking about how "Christian" came from "Christ in", gack!
And later he talks about Aristotelians being followers of Aristotle. He got that one right, so how in the world did he f**k up the other one?
And he said that followers of Freud were "Freud-in-yists", whatever that hell those are. He meant, of course, Freudians.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Zixar
Thanks for the correction, RGeek!
As for VPW's accent, my father was born and raised in the same region of Ohio, and he never spoke as hicked-up as VPW. Nor do any of my other Ohio-native relatives, all of whom still live in the vicinity of Dayton. If there's an Ohio accent, that isn't it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
vickles
vpw's accent was the same as my mother's side of the family. They were miners in PA...the accent is poor german american.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
diazbro
I always thought that VPW adopted the down home
accent when it suited his purposes. Preachers and public speakers typically have stock public speaking mechanisms they employ and over time it becomes automatic to them.
During the High Country Caravan phase I recall hearing Way people from like Oregon copping southern accents or at least employing a few southern phrases. Perhaps they though this was what the ministry wanted but it sounded very strange.
I had a friend who was a rock singer and he later went on to lead a Way prods group that
was C&W based though his accent was affected.
He was southern yes thats true but he darn sure
wouldn't have picked the C&W vibe unless someone in leadership had told him to.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
vickles
I remember living down south for years. I didn't want to get a southern accent but get it I did. When I got home to visit everyone couldn't get over the accent. It was gone after being with them several days.
I didn't do it on purpose it just happened. I have to laugh now thinking about that southern accent.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
Anyone who pronounces "problem" as prob-LEN
can't be trusted to pronunce Greek properly.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
diazbro
Vickles said:
I didn't do it on purpose it just happened. I have to laugh now thinking about that southern accent.
>>
Interesting. I should point out that the people
in Oregon to whom I was referring didn't leave
Oregon. They started picking up "southernisms"
courtesy of Way teachings, tapes, and shows.
Now that was bizarre.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
vickles
they must have been listening to those tapes way to long...
:D-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Greek2me
I thought I remembered it but I had to double check to be sure. "It's Greek to me" comes from no less a literary giant than William Shakespeare himself.
"The Tragey of Julius Caesar" Act 1 Scene 2 - near the end of the scene.
CASSIUS Did Cicero say any thing?
CASCA Ay, he spoke Greek.
CASSIUS To what effect?
CASCA Nay, an I tell you that, Ill ne'er look you i' the
face again: but those that understood him smiled at
one another and shook their heads; but, for mine own
part, it was Greek to me. I could tell you more
news too: Marullus and Flavius, for pulling scarfs
off Caesar's images, are put to silence. Fare you
well. There was more foolery yet, if I could
remember it.
Concerning Greek pronounciations. Ask a Greek
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChasUFarley
My husband is Greek - he is first generation American - his parents came to America via Ellis Island. Greek was his first language and still the language he speaks with his mother and other relatives. He's teaching it to me so that when we go over to Greece to visit (some day soon) I will be able to converse with his relatives.
We're attempting to raise our son in a bilingual household - it's a challenge. I've picked up a little Greek (the language, not the kid) and it is a very guttural language. I've also found it to have many words that sound like what they really are (onomatopoeia). For example, "snore" in Greek is "v'Rule, v'Rule" (phonic spelling, of course) or "fart" is "pru-TZ, pru-TZ" (again, phonic spelling).
Classical Greek is like Latin - it's a dead language. No one knows how it is supposed to sound. Erasmus, a Dutch scholar, is the one who decided how Classical Greek should be spoken. The language was "sung" more than spoken, by scholars’' guesses. So, really the way that VPW spoke the language isn't really debatable. Yes, by Modern Greek standards, he was off in his pronunciations, but that's not what he was teaching, was it?
My husband's family is from a village in the mountains near Thesslonique. They speak what he describes as "West Virginia Greek" - there is different pronunciations to words that mean the same thing - it's less formal. I assume it's much like the way we Yankees think about the Southerners and their pronunciation of certain words ("y'all" vs. "you all").
By the way, the Greeks have their own version of "It's Greek to me!" - they say "It's Chinese to me!" (I'm not making this up - it's true!)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Greek2me
Oak,
That seems to be the consensus outside of Greece. Here, of course, the Greeks tend to think any 'barbarian' trying to tell them how their language is supposed to be pronounced is ... well, ridiculous. After all, the language has arrived (albeit in an evolved manner as in all 'living' languages) from ancient times and there are groups of Greeks that have been isolated or separated (Asia Minor Pontiacs for instance) that speak an entirely different dialect than do Greeks in Greece, however there are similarities. Also, Cretans have a strong (unique) dialect.
In the Greek Orthodox church, however, the service is done in an older (Koine?) form of Greek, based on centuries and centuries of tradition. Much like the Catholics doing a service in Latin. Many people here don't understand every word but there are quite a few (like my wife) who have had a classical eduaction with 6 years of ancient and koine Greek study who do understand the services.
As CUF pointed out. The agreed upon pronunciations seem to have come from a Dutch scholar. To my mind, the people that have had thousands of years of tradition speaking the same language and who to this day do services in the form of the language from as old as, if not older than, the 3rd century A.D. are the ones most likely to tell us the "proper" pronounciation.
So again I say if you want to know how a Greek word is pronounced...ask a Greek.
ChasU.,
I know your husbands dialect well! They simply cut the endings off many of the words. Ex. Speeti (house) becomes Speet. And yes, the Greeks do say it's chinese to me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Dear Chas and G2M,
A modern English-speaking person, upon encountering a passage of Middle English text, would have a hard time pronouncing the words, let alone understanding what it says. And a paragraph of Old English would completely confound him.
The same holds true of Classic Greek, Koin?reek, and Modern Greek, as you know. I would be curious as to which form is spoken in the church, and how the pronunciations are maintained -- oral tradition, or some other?
I guess the point here is that the pronunciations of Biblical (Koin?Greek words have a scholarly tradition in the Western world, albeit from a Dutch scholar. Perhaps he is wrong to the modern Greek ear, or wrong to the ancient ear. But nonetheless, those pronunciations are the accepted ones. Wierwille didn't take the time to listen and get it right.
His inattentiveness in this area, when he demanded attention to detail out of everyone else, makes his other claims suspect.
'Course, maybe he got his pronunciations directly from God, when he was receiving the rest of PFAL, eh, Mike?
-->
Now everyone practice: ex-heh-GECKO-my.
Now I'd like to sell you some auto insurance...
Regards,
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Greek2me
Shaz
Exactly! or is that EXzaktally, or maybe ezzzacly, or as Red Fox's character on Sanford and Son used to say, Zackly.
Mind you, you don't want to have a case of the 'zackly's' now, do we?
;)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
diazbro
ChasUFarley said:
By the way, the Greeks have their own version of "It's Greek to me!" - they say "It's Chinese to me!" (I'm not making this up - it's true!)
>>
And the Chinese say "its french to me" ! This is
also quite true.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
well then... what do the French say??? (other than "we have no deodorant")
Link to comment
Share on other sites
diazbro
Tom Strange a pos?a question:
well then... what do the French say???
>>
At one time they would say "Its Hebrew to me".....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.