Last week, during their monthly fellowship coordinator's meeting most of the meeting consisted of this BC reproving everyone there for not sending him a thank you card for doing the communion service.
QUOTE]
This should be added to the drinking game thread: Take a drink everytime you have to write a thank you card to a TWI leader.
"Thinking a little more on this subject, I must take note, that when studying the life of Jesus, I do not see any manipulation or secrecy going on at all. No name tags, no lock boxes, no titles, no corporations, no buildings or properties, no organizational plans, no tax exempt status, no lawsuits, no rape accusations, no power echelons, no chain of commands, no political endorsements, no fund drives, bake sales or bingo nights. Jesus never asked to be paid money to teach, never handed out any loyalty oaths to be signed, was never sadistic or controlling or dishonest.
Maybe twi got it wrong in a few places?"
UH,
This is mixed bag of comments, some of which don't even apply to TWI. They certainly have not had many or any political endorsements, for example. Now they gave them a few times.
Jesus also only had 12 people in his "organization." When I go back to the old testament, I see the example of Moses who tried you're way. It nearly wore him out. Throughout the times in the Bible even when things were Godly, there was some structure just to make sure things got done. In your examples, you mix in organizational items with acts of evil. It's possible to have a framework without evil and it's also still possible to have evil without organization. They're mutually exclusive.
As for money, Judas collected the money so they're was giving. Unless Jesus was moonlighting at TGISabbath, the money came from his somewhere.
As for "lockboxes", there were times when he had sidebar conversations with his disciples only. I know that people abused the concept of confidentiality to hide crimes but that doesn't mean Jesus said everything to everyone.
Sum up: my impression is you're painting two extremes, both of which are not good.
quote:In your examples, you mix in organizational items with acts of evil. It's possible to have a framework without evil and it's also still possible to have evil without organization. They're mutually exclusive.
I think you meant, they're not mutually exclusive.
I THINK you're saying that evil and organization are not mutually inclusive. In other words, just because you have organization doesn't mean you're evil. And just because you're evil, doesn't mean you're organized.
Just because a person can theoretically walk out of an abusive situation doesn't mean that it's not abuse.
The recipient of the abuse often has decided that what will be lost (marriage, children, job benefits, God's protection) is too important to lose even in exchange for getting away from or stopping the abuse.
The abuser knows this. The husband who kicks the cr*p out of his wife knows that she is afraid to be out on her own; the loud-mouthed boss knows that the employee that he treats badly would be hard pressed to find another job elsewhere; the cult-leader knows that many followers have been convinced that death lies outside the cult walls.
Sadistic Way leaders knew the power that they had.
quote: if they told you to jump off a cliff, would you jump?
Yep- not only would I but I did- Literally!
Face first about a 30 ft leap off family rocks (So named because they were such ball busters), LEAD- Tieny NM 1985. Of course there were strings attached (I was rapelling). I thought it was going to make me soooo spiritual!
My short stint Corpse training was filled with activities to "take me to my breaking point and beyond so I would learn to go to God and learn to rely on Him". Many were foolish or downright dangeous in retrospect. I think the point about how the absolute authority and trust that I and others put ourselves under became self reinforcing and lead to behavior on the part of leadership that was evil is valid.
Another example from TWI 2- anyone else remember what I called loyalty/humility tests? one example might be to require a believer to do repairs on his home within a certain period of time- or some other task- perhaps lose weight. Or tell one spouse that they could not come to twig or fellowship with believers for a week or two to see if that lead to "Godly repentence" and then when that spouse squared away pull the same stunt on the other one if they got out of line. I belive it may have contributed to if not caused divorces.I know it strained my marriage.
Finally for about the last three years I was in TWI I lived with three fears:
1. I could not live up to the standard of GOD'S Word that was being demanded by LCM & Co.
2. I would eventually be kicked out because of no 1.
3. I would not be able to stand being separated from TWI after I left because they are the only fellowship with God's rightly divided Word. Thus they were right and I would be miserably wrong!
So how did I go from PFAL which supposedly taught me I was a joint hier with Christ and could over come any fear with the Word, knowing that I knew that I knew that I knew because I had the keys to the Words intrepretation, to living with those three fears daily for three years?
Perhaps lazyness and blind foolish faith in TWI on my part, but here was something else in the way I continued to be taught and lead and I belive it became increasingly evil.
Another example from TWI 2- anyone else remember what I called loyalty/humility tests? one example might be to require a believer to do repairs on his home within a certain period of time- or some other task- perhaps lose weight. Or tell one spouse that they could not come to twig or fellowship with believers for a week or two to see if that lead to "Godly repentence" and then when that spouse squared away pull the same stunt on the other one if they got out of line. I belive it may have contributed to if not caused divorces.I know it strained my marriage.
***********************
Ckeer, we went through all of that from '96 on, until we left in '99. I believe the HFC was trying to bust up our marriage. He was a major LCM wannabe--even grew a goatee like LCM's.
Yeah, we couldn't keep up, either. Just a matter of time before we were kicked.
JustThinking...I think you missed my point. The fact that you used Moses as an example indicates that you perceive the twi version of Christianity. In other words, you need an organization, "headed" up by one leader at the top (shall we call him the mog?) who delegates through a chain of command. Afterall, how else could it possibly function???
Organizations are fine if you're selling soap, building houses or pedaling books and tapes. As far as I can tell, Christianity has one head...Christ. The bible says that he orchestrates "his body" in a "spiritual way". I have nothing against Christian organizations as long as they don't hinder the way in which the Christian "church" is supposed to operate. Organizations are not an essential ingredient, according to the bible, in the spiritual functioning of the church...and don't give me that hooey about the gift ministries because they are never told to operate within an organization either.
As far as mixing evil with aspects of an organization, it's really not mixing apples and oranges when you consider my above points. I guess what I should have stated was that Jesus never formed or belonged to any organization nor did he committ any evil. These are two aspects that twi did engage in. Jesus never engaged in either...that was my point. My implication is that the true body of Christ is organization-free in it's purest form and operates best when individuals have their own access to the Head rather than denying this access by referring to an organization instead of going directly to the Head themselves.
Can anybody tell that I have been soured on religion?
quote:Come on oldies say something. I'm sure at sometime your love will show through.
Hi Danny, I generally don't post on evenings and weekends. Hope everyone had a nice weekend.
Yeah, the allegations here don't apply very well. On the one hand, you've got people being forced to do humiliating things at gunpoint. On the other hand, you have folks who freely avail themselves of a program where they are to obey a man of god. If they don't like it, or if it was too harsh treatment for them, "there's the door". Many did leave the corps too.
quote:They became kings in their own little kingdoms. As the brainwashed peasants kissed their rings, their minds went over to the "dark side"...Certainly not in every case, but in many.
This seems to be a key element in the mind control propaganda mindset. You must have been brainwashed to have submit yourself to a loud-mouth balding man with a large forehead, right? It couldn't have been for other reasons...no...you had to be brainwashed. You COULDN'T make decisions on your own...
Yes you could folks. It doesn't apply because those Iraq prisoners were there at gunpoint. There's a difference.
It applies....you have fear of death from a bullet.....fear of death spiritually which would result in degradation and eventual physical death....
It is fear of death either way that motivates us to do that which we normally would not.
Even bigger than the fear of physical death is the fear of dissapointing God or worst of all getting possessed.
WHY did we fear these things worse than any live physical bullet???
A) We were under the impression that these guys taught us the word AND will of God...
B) We trusted these people who taught us scripture ...believing that they had pure motives and wanted the best for our lives...
C) We were taught by these people whom had built this trust that if we did not obey leadership first time everytime...we would be stiff necked/open for possession/let Satan into our lives which would result in our degredation and destruction....
You had folks teach us enough scripture to win our trust and lend themselves an aura of respectability....requiring things on God`s behalf....the things I was required to do ....I did for God...there is no man/ knife/ or gun that could have induced some of the actions that were required to comply with...
Funny thing though...I look back and see that GOD didn`t want or need these things...*I* desperatly didn`t want to DO these things....WHO did????? Oh yeah it was twi leaders THEIR desires THEIR agendas ...THEY profited.........
I would have scoffed at a gun or knife or any other form of physical danger....but the threat of not being spiritual enough...not being pleasing to God was enough to make me cringe..and obey with alacrity whatever was being demanded.
Most of us saw what happened to ANYONE who dared disobey leadership....they always dissapeared and we were told horrible stories about their spiritual unworthiness...and how they had let Satan take over....
Oldies maybe you weren`t required to take those those soul wrenching actions........ maybe that is why you are in denial...Whatever the reason........ it is pretty ignorant of you to sit back in your computer chair and decide what pressures were applied...deny the very existance of the force that was used to coerce the rest of us into actions against our better judgement...(I`d say will but speaking personally...I had none at all at that point) .... be it with Gun or scripture
quote:It is fear of death either way that motivates us to do that which we normally would not.
I'm not saying that some folks weren't motivated by fear. But fear isn't the only motive that activates decisions. Here's what we learned in twi, which i still agree with.
Why do we do things?
1- Self Preservation
2- Self Recognition
3- Fear
4- Love
I think all of these motivational forces were in play in various folks lives.
The analogy given at the beginning of this thread is too narrow and doesn't represent the whole truth.
Wasn't LEAD a program where cliff climbing happened...and people ended up falling off a cliff and going back for more...to prove they weren't seed or something.
Oldies...just because YOU didn`t do these things out of fear certainly does NOT negate the point that was made about sadistic leadership demanding what which we did not wish to give....and brandishing the authority given themselves by scripture AS the loaded gun pointed at our heads.
Yes we, many of us WERE forced into compliance....scripture was the weapon that gave them the power to steal that which was not theirs.
Wasn't LEAD a program where cliff climbing happened...and people ended up falling off a cliff and going back for more...to prove they weren't seed or something.
Did you ever go LEAD, OM?
Never went and never had any desire to. Folks who freely availed themselves to go into the corps, placed themselves in a position to be required to submit to this discipline. Even this can't be compared to those who were sexually humiliated in Iraq...not even close...
Ummm those required to service the mogs as their spiritual responsibility weren`t sexually humiliated?
It doesn`t compare?? Maybe because you weren`t required to *do* the wrinkled old fart or required participation in threesoms with the great lcm as part of your spiritual *duties*
Maybe you have no idea the depths of the humiliation or degradation experienced by twi women.
Compulsion is compulsion whether it is intimidation...by gun/knife/superior physical force or spiritual manipulation and intimidation....
when I went LEAD, it was the first year I think, and it was mostly like an "outward bound" kind of thing with manifestations thrown in...
of course, from what I read here at GS... it seems almost everything turned "dark" as the years went by... as opposed to only being "dark" below the surface when I was in...
I may have. If I did, I apologize. Moses was just one example. Do I think there has to be the one, ultimate leader. Not at all. In fact, that idea scares me silly. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." Unsupervised or unchecked power is called a dictatorship. TWI is a great case.
Can you give me an example of any large group of people which has successfully done what you describe? I have seen a lot of examples of failure. No real successes though. It sounds nice but doesn't seem to work with humans. Most people aren't very comfortable with no direction at all. Even the church in Acts had an organization to it. If you have an example in the Bible, it would be even better. I'm certainly willing to admit I'm wrong here, if I am.
For me, I have been in management for a long time (over 15 years) and would estimate that less than 10% of the folks I meet are truly independent enough to do what you describe. The rest talk about it but really rely on someone else. For example, if people didn't have to go to work to survive, how many would get up in the morning and do something? I think it's wishful thinking that MORE would get done under that way.
So it's clear to me, are you saying that if christianity dropped all forms of organization, more would get done for God? Also, is this too off-topic? Maybe we should move it to another thread?
quote:Ummm those required to service the mogs as their spiritual responsibility weren`t sexually humiliated?
It really would depend on the mind set of the participant involved, but I do question that those engaged in that activity thought it was a requirement to service the mog in that way; I think most freely availed themselves to do it; others were abused, but I would say generally, no, folks who did that sort of thing didn't think it was sexual humiliation at the time (those who thought it might be, or found it distasteful didn't do it, obviously.)
quote:It doesn`t compare?? Maybe because you weren`t required to *do* the wrinkled old fart or required participation in threesoms with the great lcm as part of your spiritual *duties*
rascal, i still haven't bought the idea that these women were "required" as you say to do this....you make it sound like they had no will of their own. i still don't see that...it sounds to me like you always must portray them as brainwashed, mind-controlled children to get your point across...
Perhaps if the grouchy hairy uncle’s first post had not mentioned brain-washing, oldies wouldn’t have such a firm objection.
There are some parallels that are quite easily seen between the abusive prison guards and TWI leaders. One could easily argue that the prisoner’s guards did not have ultimate authority. They are starting to answer for their crimes now. Just as easily as a targeted victim of TWI could refuse to submit and call on a higher power, so could those prisoners! Therefore, because those prisoners refused to stand up for their rights and call those guards’ bluff because they really wouldn’t pull the trigger anyway. Wait, did the prisoners stop and think about Rumsfeld, Bush or the American Congress or people before they acted? I have to conclude then all abuse was as much their fault as any Americans! Oh, the prisoners didn’t know if their abusers would pull the trigger or not, wait; I haven’t seen all the pictures and the ones I have seen I don’t see pointed guns! Once again because I don’t see pointed guns then the pointed guns are a fabrication and have to be wrong! Don’t bother to try and show me a pointed gun picture I won’t buy it anyway!
Someone just told me the story of a 12th WC gal that while in residence up and left. Huge public humiliation followed, the gal’s friends and family abandoned her and believed she was possessed by some major spirits! Slowly as friends and family left TWI they started to believe her side of the story. A major leader came right out and told her that she could do him, alone or in a threesome or get out now!
Now she did the right thing, but until WayDale and that exodus that followed over the sexual exploits being reveled of a certain leader, no one would hardly talk to her let alone believe her. Ultimate authority? No! But enough power to ruin a portion of a person’s life and separate them from all their loved ones. Maybe the next girl thought about that, being alienated from all their loved ones that are *in*, or maybe she bought the flesh is flesh and sticking a finger in an ear is the same as sex to God! (Don’t laugh, that line was documented in another court case)
But it was power and it was authority wrongly used against their victims. Brain-washing, nope; true science has proven even the Korean brain-washing in POW camps is nothing more than urban legend. But the lack of brain washing doesn’t negate the abuse of authority or the evil manipulation by those in authority and pass the blame to the victims.
quote:rascal, i still haven't bought the idea that these women were "required" as you say to do this....you make it sound like they had no will of their own. i still don't see that...it sounds to me like you always must portray them as brainwashed, mind-controlled children to get your point across...
OM... as stated before a hundred thousand times... "required"? If you didn't, life as you knew it would end. No more "blessing of God"... no more "part of the household"... no more "walking with God's true ministry"... if they didn't, and resisted, they were "cast out", labeled as "possessed", out from under the "umbrella of God's protection" for not doing the "will of God"... for this was how it was presented to them, a very real dilemma for most... "spiritual life" or "spiritual death"...
...but that's been gone over with you before... you have refused to "see" it in the past, and I'm sure you'll refuse to "see" it now... fortunately, the reality of the evilness of TWI does not rely on your vision of it...
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JustThinking
Quote from UncleHarry:
"Thinking a little more on this subject, I must take note, that when studying the life of Jesus, I do not see any manipulation or secrecy going on at all. No name tags, no lock boxes, no titles, no corporations, no buildings or properties, no organizational plans, no tax exempt status, no lawsuits, no rape accusations, no power echelons, no chain of commands, no political endorsements, no fund drives, bake sales or bingo nights. Jesus never asked to be paid money to teach, never handed out any loyalty oaths to be signed, was never sadistic or controlling or dishonest.
Maybe twi got it wrong in a few places?"
UH,
This is mixed bag of comments, some of which don't even apply to TWI. They certainly have not had many or any political endorsements, for example. Now they gave them a few times.
Jesus also only had 12 people in his "organization." When I go back to the old testament, I see the example of Moses who tried you're way. It nearly wore him out. Throughout the times in the Bible even when things were Godly, there was some structure just to make sure things got done. In your examples, you mix in organizational items with acts of evil. It's possible to have a framework without evil and it's also still possible to have evil without organization. They're mutually exclusive.
As for money, Judas collected the money so they're was giving. Unless Jesus was moonlighting at TGISabbath, the money came from his somewhere.
As for "lockboxes", there were times when he had sidebar conversations with his disciples only. I know that people abused the concept of confidentiality to hide crimes but that doesn't mean Jesus said everything to everyone.
Sum up: my impression is you're painting two extremes, both of which are not good.
JT
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Raf
I think you meant, they're not mutually exclusive.
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Raf
Actually, I can't figure out what you meant...
I THINK you're saying that evil and organization are not mutually inclusive. In other words, just because you have organization doesn't mean you're evil. And just because you're evil, doesn't mean you're organized.
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Danny
Come on oldies say something. I'm sure at sometime your love will show through.
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Oakspear
Just because a person can theoretically walk out of an abusive situation doesn't mean that it's not abuse.
The recipient of the abuse often has decided that what will be lost (marriage, children, job benefits, God's protection) is too important to lose even in exchange for getting away from or stopping the abuse.
The abuser knows this. The husband who kicks the cr*p out of his wife knows that she is afraid to be out on her own; the loud-mouthed boss knows that the employee that he treats badly would be hard pressed to find another job elsewhere; the cult-leader knows that many followers have been convinced that death lies outside the cult walls.
Sadistic Way leaders knew the power that they had.
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ckeer
Oldies-
Yep- not only would I but I did- Literally!
Face first about a 30 ft leap off family rocks (So named because they were such ball busters), LEAD- Tieny NM 1985. Of course there were strings attached (I was rapelling). I thought it was going to make me soooo spiritual!
My short stint Corpse training was filled with activities to "take me to my breaking point and beyond so I would learn to go to God and learn to rely on Him". Many were foolish or downright dangeous in retrospect. I think the point about how the absolute authority and trust that I and others put ourselves under became self reinforcing and lead to behavior on the part of leadership that was evil is valid.
Another example from TWI 2- anyone else remember what I called loyalty/humility tests? one example might be to require a believer to do repairs on his home within a certain period of time- or some other task- perhaps lose weight. Or tell one spouse that they could not come to twig or fellowship with believers for a week or two to see if that lead to "Godly repentence" and then when that spouse squared away pull the same stunt on the other one if they got out of line. I belive it may have contributed to if not caused divorces.I know it strained my marriage.
Finally for about the last three years I was in TWI I lived with three fears:
1. I could not live up to the standard of GOD'S Word that was being demanded by LCM & Co.
2. I would eventually be kicked out because of no 1.
3. I would not be able to stand being separated from TWI after I left because they are the only fellowship with God's rightly divided Word. Thus they were right and I would be miserably wrong!
So how did I go from PFAL which supposedly taught me I was a joint hier with Christ and could over come any fear with the Word, knowing that I knew that I knew that I knew because I had the keys to the Words intrepretation, to living with those three fears daily for three years?
Perhaps lazyness and blind foolish faith in TWI on my part, but here was something else in the way I continued to be taught and lead and I belive it became increasingly evil.
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Bramble
Quote from Ckeer
********************
Another example from TWI 2- anyone else remember what I called loyalty/humility tests? one example might be to require a believer to do repairs on his home within a certain period of time- or some other task- perhaps lose weight. Or tell one spouse that they could not come to twig or fellowship with believers for a week or two to see if that lead to "Godly repentence" and then when that spouse squared away pull the same stunt on the other one if they got out of line. I belive it may have contributed to if not caused divorces.I know it strained my marriage.
***********************
Ckeer, we went through all of that from '96 on, until we left in '99. I believe the HFC was trying to bust up our marriage. He was a major LCM wannabe--even grew a goatee like LCM's.
Yeah, we couldn't keep up, either. Just a matter of time before we were kicked.
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dmiller
CC -- GOOD QUESTION!
:)--> Think we'll get an answer? 
-->
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GrouchoMarxJr
JustThinking...I think you missed my point. The fact that you used Moses as an example indicates that you perceive the twi version of Christianity. In other words, you need an organization, "headed" up by one leader at the top (shall we call him the mog?) who delegates through a chain of command. Afterall, how else could it possibly function???
Organizations are fine if you're selling soap, building houses or pedaling books and tapes. As far as I can tell, Christianity has one head...Christ. The bible says that he orchestrates "his body" in a "spiritual way". I have nothing against Christian organizations as long as they don't hinder the way in which the Christian "church" is supposed to operate. Organizations are not an essential ingredient, according to the bible, in the spiritual functioning of the church...and don't give me that hooey about the gift ministries because they are never told to operate within an organization either.
As far as mixing evil with aspects of an organization, it's really not mixing apples and oranges when you consider my above points. I guess what I should have stated was that Jesus never formed or belonged to any organization nor did he committ any evil. These are two aspects that twi did engage in. Jesus never engaged in either...that was my point. My implication is that the true body of Christ is organization-free in it's purest form and operates best when individuals have their own access to the Head rather than denying this access by referring to an organization instead of going directly to the Head themselves.
Can anybody tell that I have been soured on religion?
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oldiesman
Hi Danny, I generally don't post on evenings and weekends. Hope everyone had a nice weekend.
Yeah, the allegations here don't apply very well. On the one hand, you've got people being forced to do humiliating things at gunpoint. On the other hand, you have folks who freely avail themselves of a program where they are to obey a man of god. If they don't like it, or if it was too harsh treatment for them, "there's the door". Many did leave the corps too.
This seems to be a key element in the mind control propaganda mindset. You must have been brainwashed to have submit yourself to a loud-mouth balding man with a large forehead, right? It couldn't have been for other reasons...no...you had to be brainwashed. You COULDN'T make decisions on your own...Yes you could folks. It doesn't apply because those Iraq prisoners were there at gunpoint. There's a difference.
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rascal
It applies....you have fear of death from a bullet.....fear of death spiritually which would result in degradation and eventual physical death....
It is fear of death either way that motivates us to do that which we normally would not.
Even bigger than the fear of physical death is the fear of dissapointing God or worst of all getting possessed.
WHY did we fear these things worse than any live physical bullet???
A) We were under the impression that these guys taught us the word AND will of God...
B) We trusted these people who taught us scripture ...believing that they had pure motives and wanted the best for our lives...
C) We were taught by these people whom had built this trust that if we did not obey leadership first time everytime...we would be stiff necked/open for possession/let Satan into our lives which would result in our degredation and destruction....
You had folks teach us enough scripture to win our trust and lend themselves an aura of respectability....requiring things on God`s behalf....the things I was required to do ....I did for God...there is no man/ knife/ or gun that could have induced some of the actions that were required to comply with...
Funny thing though...I look back and see that GOD didn`t want or need these things...*I* desperatly didn`t want to DO these things....WHO did????? Oh yeah it was twi leaders THEIR desires THEIR agendas ...THEY profited.........
I would have scoffed at a gun or knife or any other form of physical danger....but the threat of not being spiritual enough...not being pleasing to God was enough to make me cringe..and obey with alacrity whatever was being demanded.
Most of us saw what happened to ANYONE who dared disobey leadership....they always dissapeared and we were told horrible stories about their spiritual unworthiness...and how they had let Satan take over....
Oldies maybe you weren`t required to take those those soul wrenching actions........ maybe that is why you are in denial...Whatever the reason........ it is pretty ignorant of you to sit back in your computer chair and decide what pressures were applied...deny the very existance of the force that was used to coerce the rest of us into actions against our better judgement...(I`d say will but speaking personally...I had none at all at that point) .... be it with Gun or scripture
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oldiesman
I'm not saying that some folks weren't motivated by fear. But fear isn't the only motive that activates decisions. Here's what we learned in twi, which i still agree with.
Why do we do things?
1- Self Preservation
2- Self Recognition
3- Fear
4- Love
I think all of these motivational forces were in play in various folks lives.
The analogy given at the beginning of this thread is too narrow and doesn't represent the whole truth.
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CoolWaters
Speaking of cliffs...
Wasn't LEAD a program where cliff climbing happened...and people ended up falling off a cliff and going back for more...to prove they weren't seed or something.
Did you ever go LEAD, OM?
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rascal
Oldies...just because YOU didn`t do these things out of fear certainly does NOT negate the point that was made about sadistic leadership demanding what which we did not wish to give....and brandishing the authority given themselves by scripture AS the loaded gun pointed at our heads.
Yes we, many of us WERE forced into compliance....scripture was the weapon that gave them the power to steal that which was not theirs.
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oldiesman
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rascal
Ummm those required to service the mogs as their spiritual responsibility weren`t sexually humiliated?
It doesn`t compare?? Maybe because you weren`t required to *do* the wrinkled old fart or required participation in threesoms with the great lcm as part of your spiritual *duties*
Maybe you have no idea the depths of the humiliation or degradation experienced by twi women.
Compulsion is compulsion whether it is intimidation...by gun/knife/superior physical force or spiritual manipulation and intimidation....
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Tom Strange
when I went LEAD, it was the first year I think, and it was mostly like an "outward bound" kind of thing with manifestations thrown in...
of course, from what I read here at GS... it seems almost everything turned "dark" as the years went by... as opposed to only being "dark" below the surface when I was in...
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JustThinking
UncleHarry,
I may have. If I did, I apologize. Moses was just one example. Do I think there has to be the one, ultimate leader. Not at all. In fact, that idea scares me silly. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." Unsupervised or unchecked power is called a dictatorship. TWI is a great case.
Can you give me an example of any large group of people which has successfully done what you describe? I have seen a lot of examples of failure. No real successes though. It sounds nice but doesn't seem to work with humans. Most people aren't very comfortable with no direction at all. Even the church in Acts had an organization to it. If you have an example in the Bible, it would be even better. I'm certainly willing to admit I'm wrong here, if I am.
For me, I have been in management for a long time (over 15 years) and would estimate that less than 10% of the folks I meet are truly independent enough to do what you describe. The rest talk about it but really rely on someone else. For example, if people didn't have to go to work to survive, how many would get up in the morning and do something? I think it's wishful thinking that MORE would get done under that way.
So it's clear to me, are you saying that if christianity dropped all forms of organization, more would get done for God? Also, is this too off-topic? Maybe we should move it to another thread?
JT
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dmiller
I can see the 4-color, glossy paper, 3-fold brochures now!
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oldiesman
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Grizzy
Perhaps if the grouchy hairy uncle’s first post had not mentioned brain-washing, oldies wouldn’t have such a firm objection.
There are some parallels that are quite easily seen between the abusive prison guards and TWI leaders. One could easily argue that the prisoner’s guards did not have ultimate authority. They are starting to answer for their crimes now. Just as easily as a targeted victim of TWI could refuse to submit and call on a higher power, so could those prisoners! Therefore, because those prisoners refused to stand up for their rights and call those guards’ bluff because they really wouldn’t pull the trigger anyway. Wait, did the prisoners stop and think about Rumsfeld, Bush or the American Congress or people before they acted? I have to conclude then all abuse was as much their fault as any Americans! Oh, the prisoners didn’t know if their abusers would pull the trigger or not, wait; I haven’t seen all the pictures and the ones I have seen I don’t see pointed guns! Once again because I don’t see pointed guns then the pointed guns are a fabrication and have to be wrong! Don’t bother to try and show me a pointed gun picture I won’t buy it anyway!
Someone just told me the story of a 12th WC gal that while in residence up and left. Huge public humiliation followed, the gal’s friends and family abandoned her and believed she was possessed by some major spirits! Slowly as friends and family left TWI they started to believe her side of the story. A major leader came right out and told her that she could do him, alone or in a threesome or get out now!
Now she did the right thing, but until WayDale and that exodus that followed over the sexual exploits being reveled of a certain leader, no one would hardly talk to her let alone believe her. Ultimate authority? No! But enough power to ruin a portion of a person’s life and separate them from all their loved ones. Maybe the next girl thought about that, being alienated from all their loved ones that are *in*, or maybe she bought the flesh is flesh and sticking a finger in an ear is the same as sex to God! (Don’t laugh, that line was documented in another court case)
But it was power and it was authority wrongly used against their victims. Brain-washing, nope; true science has proven even the Korean brain-washing in POW camps is nothing more than urban legend. But the lack of brain washing doesn’t negate the abuse of authority or the evil manipulation by those in authority and pass the blame to the victims.
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WaywardWayfer
Rascal, I wouldn't waste my time responding. I've put Oldies in the "Mike" category....to be ignored
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Tom Strange
OM... here we are again!
OM... as stated before a hundred thousand times... "required"? If you didn't, life as you knew it would end. No more "blessing of God"... no more "part of the household"... no more "walking with God's true ministry"... if they didn't, and resisted, they were "cast out", labeled as "possessed", out from under the "umbrella of God's protection" for not doing the "will of God"... for this was how it was presented to them, a very real dilemma for most... "spiritual life" or "spiritual death"......but that's been gone over with you before... you have refused to "see" it in the past, and I'm sure you'll refuse to "see" it now... fortunately, the reality of the evilness of TWI does not rely on your vision of it...
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