distasteful.... abominable is a better word but maybe that's not strong enough
that's why it's hard when people talk about the "if it feels good, do it" in the same breath as sexual abuse
i agree we have to look at ourselves and why we did things so we make better choices today
but one thing i wish people could realize is that you spend days, nights, years blaming yourself -- that it was in fact all your fault -- and it takes therapy, re-thinking etc., to look at the thing
and sometimes "fault" and "responsibility" sound the same and ahhhhhh never mind
I agree, it usually takes two to do the dance of abuse and said so a page or two ago. I agree, it is healthy for the victim to understand their "steps" in the dance so they can make healthier choices.
However, if you read the responses of many of the women here, they DID this already. Unfortunately, Oldies seems incapable of seeing this or unwilling to acknowledge it. This is very hurtful for those who were willing to come forth and admit what they had been through and the role they played in it.
It shows a complete lack of sensitivity towards these women. It appears as if he is far more concerned with defending the perpetrator than with helping the victims heal.
Letting go of rage because it is obvious the abuser will never admit their wrongdoing is sometimes required to get beyond your personal view of yourself. Part of the rage includes wanting them to be as miserable as we were. I think in both cases they knew it to be wrong but I wonder if the guilt and shame they felt was put off on the victimized to help ease their minds.
There is a balance of strength and openness needed with one you chose to bare your soul to. I believe these men singled out certain ones that did not possess that balance and rather than aid in their wholeness took unto themselves the opportunity for personal gain.
I do know as stated before there were women that offered themselves freely, what they may have thought of themselves I don't believe they even considered at the time. But that does not dismiss the abuse of power in any way.
Raf: I so agree. I really, really do. However, I still have one quibble. I don't think pointing out the role of the victim in a cycle of abuse is at all irrelevant. Cycles of abuse can be interrupted by either a) altering the behavior of the bully, or b) altering the behavior of the victim. I think a disservice is done to victims when they are portrayed as helpless and hopeless, whose prayer for salvation can only be answered by controlling or changing the actions of the bully, else they are doomed.
We are very close to agreement. I haven't said that they are helpless or hopeless. I have said that they are victims of the abuse of power. Whether motivated by fear, misplaced love, deception, or a host of other psychological influences, they chose not to break the cycle. I use the word "choice" a little loosely in this context. I think a lot of them felt they had no choice. A lot of them felt that succumbing was better than the alternative: loss of family, friends, fellowship, reputation, status, or whatever.
And again, to be clear, for those who were drugged against their will or knowledge, there's not even a question of their "culpability." They were raped, by anyone's definition. But that's another issue.
Look at how excathedra put it:
quote:but one thing i wish people could realize is that you spend days, nights, years blaming yourself -- that it was in fact all your fault -- and it takes therapy, re-thinking etc., to look at the thing.
Who are we to come to her now and tell her to "own up" to her role? She spent years in that self-condemnation, and we do her a disservice when we tell her to "take responsibility." Not because she hasn't, but because she has. The same thing happened when imbus told her story on another thread. The first thing she was hit with was, "do you see how you committed adultery too?" As if she didn't realize that! As if that sin didn't burden her heart for years! As if she needed us to tell her what she did was wrong!
She didn't need it.
We talk about doing a disservice when we recognize that victims were victimized: Let me turn that around. We do these women a disservice when, by our words, we seek to place them back in the same self-condemnation from which they've finally begun to recover. And that's what happens when we tell them "own up," "take responsibility," "you sinned."
They know that. They don't need a refresher course.
Cycles of abuse can be interrupted. But we're not dealing with cases in which they were. Can we remember for a second that this stuff actually happened to real human beings, some of whom are reading this? They know that cycles of abuse can be interrupted, now. They didn't even know they were being abused then. A little perspective is in order. They weren't helpless. They weren't hopeless. They know that now. They did not know that then. In the context of this discussion (as far as I see it) what they know now is irrelevant. Only what they knew then counts toward the point of the abuse of power.
Maybe I'm wrong about the issue of relevancy. I've tried hard to make a case for my position. You've done a fine job of offering a counterpoint/rebuttal. Maybe we're not completely seeing eye to eye on this particular matter, but we don't necessarily have to. I truly appreciate the dialogue.
Incidentally, I don't recall if I said this before, but look at my posts on the thread called "How much authority did TWI have over you." I think you'll find we're not really all that far apart.
I would like to remind Oldiesman that this constant and blind defense of VPW could have a very real possibility of having Oldies wind up looking like this:
When last we left of with our heroes, Rockee and Bullwinkle….
Oh wrong cartoon….
When at first I saw the things said by OM they did strike a chord with me. A discord if you will. I saw great posts come to the aid of a woman who had posted how VP had abused her. Om’s tone was to minimize and get things slightly off track and I saw this very effective method used by him repeatedly.
Goes something like this…
Well, even John Lynn mentioned he knew about the spiking of the drinks (with maybe a form of the date rape drug).
Om did not retreat in horror or say anything remotely like “shutter at the thought…”
Instead he asked something like, “Well how many times?”
This pushed us forward on the same GENERAL topic; however, it was now on the access road and not the hwy.
We were no longer looking at the horrendous deed of drugging parishioners in a church to be able to force an old fat man’s penis into them. But we were directed to look at the “numbers”.
Subtle. Manipulative. By design a way to take things away from the actual nightmare some women have been forced to live with.
On another or several discussions, when brought to the board how VPW stalked women like a hunter stalking a deer, a woman shared how VPW got her into the coach by inviting her on a little road trip. I believe the road trip was to go to another campus and visit her fianc? (Nice lure) then, as she slept in the motor coach the next thing she knows he was on her and as she wrestled repeating “no” VPW continued to force the situation until he had penetrated her body with his.
OM then said something like “Why didn’t the women say no? They could have gotten out of there. There was no gun to their heads” It again steered the conversation from the heinous crime of rape, compounded by the fact that THIS man was offering “Jesus” as a lure to be a successful predator.
On one of the occasions he then took the conversation to “how old were they?”
It was Alfa cat and Long gone who were so very lucid in spotting the attacks on the poor girl who had just bared her soul and they pointed out the systematic dismissing and steering the topic away from the CRIMINAL worthy of JAIL TIME acts committed by a serial felon to a discussion about age.
Then, in one of the MANY times OM was successful, Laleo who is one of the most provocative writers the site has, wrote the most beautiful blurb on his defense. I reacted to HER writings instead of staying on the trail like a bloodhound to expose “the patterns” OM uses to victimize victims and to praise the felon.
She spoke so beautifully about how he was the guy in twig who lent people his car and brought food to twig and was always there for people. And all of us KNOW “that guy” his name is not Phil or OM but we all know a guy like that.
Laleo tapped into my soul and the heart of many who identified with such a guy as she was describing (she does not know him personally either). Then, the thread took a turn to be kind to OM because we all had someone in mind with the descriptive prose. We feel in love with her gorgeous writing skills and heart that she penned. Unfortunately, I think her compelling paragraph had little to do with "this" sly man.
I fell in love with her words. I allowed her words to influence me in my own assessment of OM. And because Laleo is kind and has a caring heart I just dropped out of the fight.
But the fighting continued….. On and on and on and on and on…..
I went back and started to pull threads where OM had spoken and saw patterns. I even posted what I was seeing at that time. But nothing stopped him because he is/was successful.
Oldies has used his counsel like a smooth defense attorney to distract, blame, counter, dismiss and humiliate the victim. Taking their already weak area of pain and applying pressure to the wound.
The biggest reason a person does not report sexual crime? For fear they will not be believed.
Oldies’ modus operandi: Keep applying pressure by changing a word to lighten the actual events, so that the jury dismisses the charges, and allegations and views the victim as an hysterical liar.
Out of frustration, he has been called and thought of as hardheaded or stupid which I also wondered and perhaps voiced. But after a while, when you see his success rate and his patterns, I recognize him as a brilliant opponent, diabolically brilliant. (IMO)
VPW was a bully as a criminal as OM is a sly bully in defense of the criminal VPW.
Then I actually found this written and it applied to VPW the criminal and his lawyer (tongue in cheek) Oldiesman.
a) Denial: the bully denies everything. Variations include Trivialization ("This is so trivial it's not worth talking about...") and the Fresh Start tactic ("I don't know why you're so intent on dwelling on the past" and "Look, what's past is past, I'll overlook your behavior and we'll start afresh") - this is an abdication of responsibility by the bully (or the followers of THE bully who became bullies themselves) and an attempt to divert and distract attention by using false conciliation. Imagine if this line of defense were available to all criminals ("Look I know I've just murdered 12 people but that's all in the past, we can't change the past, let's put it behind us, concentrate on the future so we can all get on with our lives" - this would do wonders for prison overcrowding).
b) Retaliation: the bully counterattacks. The bully quickly and seamlessly follows the denial with an aggressive counter-attack of counter-criticism or counter-allegation, often based on distortion or fabrication. Lying, deception, duplicity, hypocrisy and blame are the hallmarks of this stage. The purpose is to avoid answering the question and thus avoid accepting responsibility for their behavior. Often the target (victim) is tempted - or coerced - into giving another long explanation to prove the bully's allegation false; by the time the explanation is complete, everybody has forgotten the original question.
Both a) and b) are delivered with aggression in the guise of assertiveness; in fact there is no assertiveness (which is about recognizing and respecting the rights of oneself and others) at all. Note that explanation - of the original question - is conspicuous by its absence.
If you're dealing with a serial bully who has just exhibited this avoidance tactic, sit passively and draw attention to the pattern of behavior they've just exhibited, and then the purpose of the tactic. Then ask for an answer to the question.
Bullies also rely on the denial of others and the fact that when their target reports the abuse they will be disbelieved ("are your sure this is really going on?", "I find it hard to believe - are you sure you're not imagining it?"). Frequently targets are asked why they didn't report the abuse before, and they will usually reply "because I didn't think anyone would believe me." Sadly they are often right in this assessment. Because of the Jekyll & Hyde nature, compulsive lying, and plausibility, no-one can - or wants - to believe it..
Denial features in most cases of sexual assault, as in the case of Paul Hickson, the UK Olympic swimming coach who sexually assaulted and raped teenage girls in his care over a period of 20 years or more. When his victims were asked why they didn't report the abuse, most replied "Because I didn't think anyone would believe me". Abusers confidently, indeed arrogantly, rely on this belief, often aggressively inculcating (instilling) the belief ("No-one will ever believe you") just after the sexual assault when their victim is in a distressed state. Targets of bullying in the workplace often come up against the same attitudes by management when they report a bullying colleague. In a workplace environment, the bully usually recruits one or two colleagues (sometimes one is a sleeping partner ) who will back up the bully's denial when called to account.
Oldies man, you are a genius as a defense attorney.
Now after he is exposed again. The usual is that he will either say he did not mean to hurt anyone, he will accommodate his client, "Weirwille", by now pointing the finger at the victim again and remind the victim that she needs to forgive....
Again, another sly attack on the person speaking up...
My opinion is not meant as a swipe to you. You have a beautiful heart and a compelling way of posturing your opinions.
But you did say:
“However, I still think that oldiesman's points can be debated rather than dismissed, because the victim does have a role, whether we want to acknowledge it here or not. In your examples of rapists, and Oprah, and women who meet men who suck their life savings from them -- none of us wants to be that person. Those predators will always exist, not only in The Way, where many of us met people who should have been in prison long before we crossed paths with them, but also outside of The Way. Simply leaving The Way is no more a guarantee for happiness than was being in The Way. At some point, the changes have to come from within.”
I believe that most women on here who have revealed their corps experiences with VPW have moved on.
You can talk about high school, can you not? Who does not remember a person who was not welcome at the lunch table or never chosen for sides at sports? We all know that person and perhaps some of us were that person. Because that person then speaks of their experiences, perhaps to their own child going through them currently, does not imply they have not moved on.
IT does not mean that given the situations today they would not have LEARNED from the experience.
The problem here, as I see it, is that this is an XWAY site. People come here to find out what happened and to heal. And if those of us who KNOW and experienced the core issues of deceit when we got close to VPW can help those people by letting them KNOW what we KNOW then we should.
Would anyone go on a "cancer" site and tell those who have fought the disease to stop sharing their stories?
Does aides go away if it is not discussed? Or perhaps by telling people "I got it" and HOW they got it, they can prevent another casualty.
So why here?
The concern, again is a subtle attack, once someone brings it up – if they ever bring it up again those in the gallery of the sexual abuse think, “Well, look at that, they are still not over it.” And perhaps some are not. I am. But even if some are not who are we to mandate healing?
I am completely aware that predators are not the genesis of TWI and have been around as long as the devil has been walking the earth and it is a bit ludicrous to think I would need reminding of that. However, this again, weakens the position of the one sharing their experience.
Let’s not hear them, let us point out THEIR fallacies.
Gee, a little girl rides a bike and is grabbed off the street. Damn. The lesson? She should never ride a bike. The woman asleep in her bed who is raped. Damn. Never go to sleep. The gal who is drug behind a bush. Well, stay away from landscaping. The woman asked out on a date, then loved and married a man who drained her account? Don’t date. And God forbid you should ever want to learn about Jesus from a man….
This does not negate some responsibility in "some" cases. I should not lend my car to a stranger, or open my door at 3:00 am to a knock.... But there are many situations where you are just a victim. The reason, as I see it, that perhaps we humans try so hard to make it "the victims fault" is because we want to believe we have more control over our lives and we are not as vulnerable as we REALLY are in life.
So, if we can see "a reason" this happened to her and avoid that REASON then we can prevent it from happening to ourselves...
But to the victims, this thing that we do to each other, is extremely damaging. And although most people who respond in that way (that it could have been prevented) do so out of their own fears, there are some serial bullys who pleasure in wounding the wounded... Or in this case use that hurtful response to protect the offender.
First, upon speaking up one is met with, it is why should we believe you? Then, it is how many others did this happen to? Then, it is have you accepted responsibility for your part? (Yes, I went into a motor coach to discuss Jesus with a man who said he had a special promise from God --- Oh my! I should not go places to talk to ministers about God.)
Then there are the rantings of the Move on! You must forgive squad!
The point is ALL the people screaming “move on” “I do not believe you” “recognize your part” is still by design to draw people away from recognizing VPW was a criminal so that his crimes via his legacy can live on. AND the victims can continue to be humiliated and not heard.
There are many lessons in life. Do not leave your open drink at a party then come back and drink it. Don’t go to a remote ATM at night.
BUT now we cannot jog alone, sleep in our own beds without a weapon on the nightstand and never trust a man who claims to work for God…. That is how we are to live if we accept culpability for crimes perpetrated against us. Sorry a$$ living conditions, eh?
My relative was attacked in the early evening hours while pumping gas yesterday. He was struck across the head with something then had fists flying at him. He was able to push away the attacker and drive off. Unsure if it was an attepted car jacking or what, he is now afraid to go outside.
The lesson? He should have never gotten gas.
But when he came home with his head bloody and swollen.... the first thing I said was what happened? And then I thought there had to be something he could have done to prevent this. I then reprooved myself and let him tell me over and over how frightened he was. How helpless he felt. How he drove and hid behind a fast food place because he did not want to be followed to our house.
It is irresponsible for society to constantly hang a sign around the neck of the victim saying "I bear the responsibility for the crime perpetrated against me."
Oldiesman is not speaking to save women from being hurt again. His motive is clear to me that he is protecting VPW. You, on the other hand, are a heart-felt woman who for some reason feels for him. I am not confusing your beauty with his deception.
I disagree with you but I still esteem you. I know you and you are a heck of a gal! But your kind words or assessment of oldiesman are wasted on him, in my opinion. I think he knows what he is doing and he does it well.
The main characteristic which strengthens your argument is that Oldies will *never* allow himself to stray from whitewashing his teacher's reputation. Oh he might say that VPW has 'sinned' or even committed adultery. But it is always encased in the "Well, everybody sins" category. Always. And with, as you noted, the associated blame on the victim, usually as much as possible to alleviate any real blame upon his 'Father in the Word'.
And for what? Any real good reputation and legacy accorded to Wierwille in the minds of those who were affected by his 'ministry', is either dying, or is already dead. Suffice it to say that Wierwille will NOT go down in history as a great man, ... except in the minds of the 2 or 3 who desperately cling to his memory.
It is sad. But I am through feeling sorry for those two or three people. They have been given the truth. They have had the clouds blown from their vision and choose to follow the clouds.
So OM and M -- enjoy your defense of a criminal.
Maybe when God himself tells you that you were deceived you will accept what he says.
Wow, Dott, Thankyou for identifying and articulating this so well.... I have noticed this same pattern...and with growing vexation have watched him generally succede in his attempt to discredit posters ...their accounts...eventually to derail the thread when he can`t...(I still wonder what his agenda is...it sure isn`t to participate)
Oldies ....you treat the people here dispicably...the folks whom are giving first hand accounts of the vileness of character exhibited by vp wierwille... a man whom you never met....
Your attacks and manipulation of your brothers and sisters in christ here and now ...people whom are no doubt very dear to God....in defense of the wolf that devoured and destroyed so much....makes it pretty clear to most of us just which side of the *fence* you are on....buddy.
Dott I will add that if operating true to form...once being nailed with no wiggle room.......there will be the attempt to garner sympathy...in a don`t be so mean to poor old oldies campaign...generally he succedes ....
Dot...can I have your autograph? Well said, well put, well done.
Reality is ... we are all victims of TWI, one way or another. Some more severe than others.
Some have moved on, some have just started their journey of recovery and some, yes, will be stuck for years.
Even Oldie is a victim. He is so incased in TWI reality that he is not aware or just does't care, how it will effect anothers.
Shi@ happens and life is not fair but thank God there are loving folks out there that support and assist the process of healing.
As it has been said..."You are a part of the problem or part of the solution." I believe 98% of the folks that post want to heal and move on.
If a few get inspiried to be an avocate for the facts, let's not misread that as being stuck or unforgiving.
Oldies I have said in a previous post that you are the most hurt person I have come across on this web site.. I hope that one Day you heal. But I do understand that the reality of all that has been said, is very disturbing and can cause emotional deress. If your belief system keeps you safe than I support you. Although I don't like the way you treat people.
On another thread OM just said he would go to a local TWI fellowship if one were close to him.
So, he never left TWI in his heart or actions.
Really, he is still "in" and still holding the torch for VPW. Still valuing the message of a madman and trying to carry it forth here.
He is a real live example of why we all left.
quote: quote:
I have seen that people who want nothing to do with the ministry were hurt in some way by a PERSON. A person who is no different than you or I. We get hurt all the time from people but I would bet that if some one hurt you at work you would not quit, or if someone in your family hurt you I bet you would not divorce them. People are just that people who often times mess up, no one is perfect!!!
Wonder 1,
I don't think I'd have a problem going to a local fellowship if there were one by me. But I think the closest one to me is around 1 1/2 hours away. Too far.
If I went to check it out, I wouldn't send money to hq, but I'd be happy to contribute fine coffee and twinkies.
Don't ever expect change. He is an innie with a traffic Dilemma...
But I will tell you if I was at work and a coworker called me into their office and sat naked and asked me to perform a lewd act I would screammmmmm! Then sue.
Again, people think VP just did this to a handful of gals... It was hundreds. It was NO mistake. It was an "on purpose" over and over again.
My mind is somewhere else at the moment -- we had a funeral, and a recital, and my daughter is now home from college, so I've been busy (plus I've developed an addiction to the PBS series "Colonial House") -- but I did want to let you know that I read your posts and appreciate the response, and also the time you took to write it. We're in agreement more than disagreement – in fact, on the points you have mentioned, we aren't really in much disagreement at all.
As far as oldiesman goes, he can speak for himself (and, if he has any decency, he will). I can understand why it sounded like I was defending him. Technically, I wasn't. However, I still think (despite Raf's and Long Gone's excellent rebuttals) that the original post presented what I think is a distorted view of the social climate in The Way, as it was experienced by most "believers." In that light, I don't think oldiesman's original post was out of line. As far as what I think of him personally – I don't. You may have overestimated the amount of sympathy I have for him, even though you correctly concluded that I don't know him – never met him, never corresponded with him, have barely interacted with him on these boards, and I don't read many of the threads he participates in.
Taking your analogy about inappropriate posts on a cancer board, the way I see some of these disputes is this: Pretend for a moment that PFAL is a cookbook, and many of us ended up with diabetes as a result of eating the cafeteria food. Oldiesman comes along and says that he has eaten the same food we've all eaten, in fact, he still uses the same cookbook, and his blood sugar levels continue to be at a low-normal. Diabetic #1 responds by saying that this is impossible. The Decadent Turbo Chocolate Devil's Dream Deluxe, all by itself, is enough to put the average person into sugar shock. Oldiesman searches for the recipe, doesn't find it in his book, reluctantly concedes that some of the ingredients are listed, but not all in the same recipe, and the rest of us wonder how he could have escaped dessert since we were force fed. We don't know the answer to that. What we do know is that we can have four siblings, all in the same family, eating the same food, and some end up with diabetes, and some do not. It isn't a question of fault, shame, or superiority. Maybe mom's cooking is to blame, but the diabetic is the one who has to cope with the consequences of her lousy cooking. That's what I mean by having responsibility. The diabetic is in a position of having to study his diet, and eat carefully and selectively to stabilize his blood sugar levels, regardless of whether anyone else ended up with diabetes or not.
Anyway, whatever ill effects we ended up with are ours to cope with. And whatever hurt or injustice we might feel by having oldiesman around to remind us he doesn't have diabetes is part of the process, too. That's how I see it.
Dot, you have a very open and caring heart, which comes through in all of your posts. I always consider what you have to say.
Another well written peice. I can see from your perspective and it is "easy to be entreated".(James 3:17) However with some posters, using your anaogy... they have been very accusitory and have figuritivly stated, "You have diabeties because your a pig and have no self control". A stsement based on ignorance. When simply a pre-exisiting problem was the truth of the matter.(A predisposition for diabeties).Who would have guessed.
I know that the cake was not in Oldies cook book. But because it wasn't in his cook book does not mean it was not in mine, when in fact it was. He has leaned hard on the credability of the individuals who's cook book is different.
I know this post was in responce to anothers post. Thought I would jump into the mix.
Anyway, whatever ill effects we ended up with are ours to cope with. And whatever hurt or injustice we might feel by having oldiesman around to remind us he doesn't have diabetes is part of the process, too.
>>
Or perhaps he has yet to be diagnosed or maybe
has a different problem ? Through the years I've
met some hardcore VPW supportes many of whom later come crashing down after some breakthrough
moment with the realization that they were denying the problem all along and were expending
tremendous amounts of energy to keep the illusion going on. In my opinion OM is still
in suspension and is working hard to convince us and himself that VPW wasn't all that bad.
One could easily get the impression, by oldies continuing to derail the accounts of the victims of twi perpetrated abuse (physical, mental, sexual)by minimizing their suffering and by shifting blame and responsiblity to them, that he is not who is says he is. Rather than a ex-twier just trying to offer a balanced perspective, one could consider quite validly that Oldies is and always has been an twi operative whose mission is to subvert the quest for truth and to discourage others from airing their stories.
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excathedra
distasteful.... abominable is a better word but maybe that's not strong enough
that's why it's hard when people talk about the "if it feels good, do it" in the same breath as sexual abuse
i agree we have to look at ourselves and why we did things so we make better choices today
but one thing i wish people could realize is that you spend days, nights, years blaming yourself -- that it was in fact all your fault -- and it takes therapy, re-thinking etc., to look at the thing
and sometimes "fault" and "responsibility" sound the same and ahhhhhh never mind
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Abigail
Excathedra, I hear you.
Laleo,
I agree, it usually takes two to do the dance of abuse and said so a page or two ago. I agree, it is healthy for the victim to understand their "steps" in the dance so they can make healthier choices.
However, if you read the responses of many of the women here, they DID this already. Unfortunately, Oldies seems incapable of seeing this or unwilling to acknowledge it. This is very hurtful for those who were willing to come forth and admit what they had been through and the role they played in it.
It shows a complete lack of sensitivity towards these women. It appears as if he is far more concerned with defending the perpetrator than with helping the victims heal.
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houseisarockin
Okay so I have more, shoot me.
Letting go of rage because it is obvious the abuser will never admit their wrongdoing is sometimes required to get beyond your personal view of yourself. Part of the rage includes wanting them to be as miserable as we were. I think in both cases they knew it to be wrong but I wonder if the guilt and shame they felt was put off on the victimized to help ease their minds.
There is a balance of strength and openness needed with one you chose to bare your soul to. I believe these men singled out certain ones that did not possess that balance and rather than aid in their wholeness took unto themselves the opportunity for personal gain.
I do know as stated before there were women that offered themselves freely, what they may have thought of themselves I don't believe they even considered at the time. But that does not dismiss the abuse of power in any way.
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Raf
We are very close to agreement. I haven't said that they are helpless or hopeless. I have said that they are victims of the abuse of power. Whether motivated by fear, misplaced love, deception, or a host of other psychological influences, they chose not to break the cycle. I use the word "choice" a little loosely in this context. I think a lot of them felt they had no choice. A lot of them felt that succumbing was better than the alternative: loss of family, friends, fellowship, reputation, status, or whatever.
And again, to be clear, for those who were drugged against their will or knowledge, there's not even a question of their "culpability." They were raped, by anyone's definition. But that's another issue.
Look at how excathedra put it:
Who are we to come to her now and tell her to "own up" to her role? She spent years in that self-condemnation, and we do her a disservice when we tell her to "take responsibility." Not because she hasn't, but because she has. The same thing happened when imbus told her story on another thread. The first thing she was hit with was, "do you see how you committed adultery too?" As if she didn't realize that! As if that sin didn't burden her heart for years! As if she needed us to tell her what she did was wrong!
She didn't need it.
We talk about doing a disservice when we recognize that victims were victimized: Let me turn that around. We do these women a disservice when, by our words, we seek to place them back in the same self-condemnation from which they've finally begun to recover. And that's what happens when we tell them "own up," "take responsibility," "you sinned."
They know that. They don't need a refresher course.
Cycles of abuse can be interrupted. But we're not dealing with cases in which they were. Can we remember for a second that this stuff actually happened to real human beings, some of whom are reading this? They know that cycles of abuse can be interrupted, now. They didn't even know they were being abused then. A little perspective is in order. They weren't helpless. They weren't hopeless. They know that now. They did not know that then. In the context of this discussion (as far as I see it) what they know now is irrelevant. Only what they knew then counts toward the point of the abuse of power.
Maybe I'm wrong about the issue of relevancy. I've tried hard to make a case for my position. You've done a fine job of offering a counterpoint/rebuttal. Maybe we're not completely seeing eye to eye on this particular matter, but we don't necessarily have to. I truly appreciate the dialogue.
Incidentally, I don't recall if I said this before, but look at my posts on the thread called "How much authority did TWI have over you." I think you'll find we're not really all that far apart.
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excathedra
..
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GarthP2000
(Never mind. Tried to post an humourous image, but it didn't take)
:(-->
P.S., *I HATE TRIPOD*!!! Because it won't let me link directly to an image on my space there.
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Raf
Well, what's the site?
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GarthP2000
(It took NOW!
:D-->)
I would like to remind Oldiesman that this constant and blind defense of VPW could have a very real possibility of having Oldies wind up looking like this:
:D-->
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Dot Matrix
In my opinion:
When last we left of with our heroes, Rockee and Bullwinkle….
Oh wrong cartoon….
When at first I saw the things said by OM they did strike a chord with me. A discord if you will. I saw great posts come to the aid of a woman who had posted how VP had abused her. Om’s tone was to minimize and get things slightly off track and I saw this very effective method used by him repeatedly.
Goes something like this…
Well, even John Lynn mentioned he knew about the spiking of the drinks (with maybe a form of the date rape drug).
Om did not retreat in horror or say anything remotely like “shutter at the thought…”
Instead he asked something like, “Well how many times?”
This pushed us forward on the same GENERAL topic; however, it was now on the access road and not the hwy.
We were no longer looking at the horrendous deed of drugging parishioners in a church to be able to force an old fat man’s penis into them. But we were directed to look at the “numbers”.
Subtle. Manipulative. By design a way to take things away from the actual nightmare some women have been forced to live with.
On another or several discussions, when brought to the board how VPW stalked women like a hunter stalking a deer, a woman shared how VPW got her into the coach by inviting her on a little road trip. I believe the road trip was to go to another campus and visit her fianc? (Nice lure) then, as she slept in the motor coach the next thing she knows he was on her and as she wrestled repeating “no” VPW continued to force the situation until he had penetrated her body with his.
OM then said something like “Why didn’t the women say no? They could have gotten out of there. There was no gun to their heads” It again steered the conversation from the heinous crime of rape, compounded by the fact that THIS man was offering “Jesus” as a lure to be a successful predator.
On one of the occasions he then took the conversation to “how old were they?”
It was Alfa cat and Long gone who were so very lucid in spotting the attacks on the poor girl who had just bared her soul and they pointed out the systematic dismissing and steering the topic away from the CRIMINAL worthy of JAIL TIME acts committed by a serial felon to a discussion about age.
Then, in one of the MANY times OM was successful, Laleo who is one of the most provocative writers the site has, wrote the most beautiful blurb on his defense. I reacted to HER writings instead of staying on the trail like a bloodhound to expose “the patterns” OM uses to victimize victims and to praise the felon.
She spoke so beautifully about how he was the guy in twig who lent people his car and brought food to twig and was always there for people. And all of us KNOW “that guy” his name is not Phil or OM but we all know a guy like that.
Laleo tapped into my soul and the heart of many who identified with such a guy as she was describing (she does not know him personally either). Then, the thread took a turn to be kind to OM because we all had someone in mind with the descriptive prose. We feel in love with her gorgeous writing skills and heart that she penned. Unfortunately, I think her compelling paragraph had little to do with "this" sly man.
I fell in love with her words. I allowed her words to influence me in my own assessment of OM. And because Laleo is kind and has a caring heart I just dropped out of the fight.
But the fighting continued….. On and on and on and on and on…..
I went back and started to pull threads where OM had spoken and saw patterns. I even posted what I was seeing at that time. But nothing stopped him because he is/was successful.
Oldies has used his counsel like a smooth defense attorney to distract, blame, counter, dismiss and humiliate the victim. Taking their already weak area of pain and applying pressure to the wound.
The biggest reason a person does not report sexual crime? For fear they will not be believed.
Oldies’ modus operandi: Keep applying pressure by changing a word to lighten the actual events, so that the jury dismisses the charges, and allegations and views the victim as an hysterical liar.
Out of frustration, he has been called and thought of as hardheaded or stupid which I also wondered and perhaps voiced. But after a while, when you see his success rate and his patterns, I recognize him as a brilliant opponent, diabolically brilliant. (IMO)
VPW was a bully as a criminal as OM is a sly bully in defense of the criminal VPW.
Then I actually found this written and it applied to VPW the criminal and his lawyer (tongue in cheek) Oldiesman.
The serial bully:
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm#Guru
It is NOT harmless. Here is exposure:
a) Denial: the bully denies everything. Variations include Trivialization ("This is so trivial it's not worth talking about...") and the Fresh Start tactic ("I don't know why you're so intent on dwelling on the past" and "Look, what's past is past, I'll overlook your behavior and we'll start afresh") - this is an abdication of responsibility by the bully (or the followers of THE bully who became bullies themselves) and an attempt to divert and distract attention by using false conciliation. Imagine if this line of defense were available to all criminals ("Look I know I've just murdered 12 people but that's all in the past, we can't change the past, let's put it behind us, concentrate on the future so we can all get on with our lives" - this would do wonders for prison overcrowding).
b) Retaliation: the bully counterattacks. The bully quickly and seamlessly follows the denial with an aggressive counter-attack of counter-criticism or counter-allegation, often based on distortion or fabrication. Lying, deception, duplicity, hypocrisy and blame are the hallmarks of this stage. The purpose is to avoid answering the question and thus avoid accepting responsibility for their behavior. Often the target (victim) is tempted - or coerced - into giving another long explanation to prove the bully's allegation false; by the time the explanation is complete, everybody has forgotten the original question.
Both a) and b) are delivered with aggression in the guise of assertiveness; in fact there is no assertiveness (which is about recognizing and respecting the rights of oneself and others) at all. Note that explanation - of the original question - is conspicuous by its absence.
If you're dealing with a serial bully who has just exhibited this avoidance tactic, sit passively and draw attention to the pattern of behavior they've just exhibited, and then the purpose of the tactic. Then ask for an answer to the question.
Bullies also rely on the denial of others and the fact that when their target reports the abuse they will be disbelieved ("are your sure this is really going on?", "I find it hard to believe - are you sure you're not imagining it?"). Frequently targets are asked why they didn't report the abuse before, and they will usually reply "because I didn't think anyone would believe me." Sadly they are often right in this assessment. Because of the Jekyll & Hyde nature, compulsive lying, and plausibility, no-one can - or wants - to believe it..
Denial features in most cases of sexual assault, as in the case of Paul Hickson, the UK Olympic swimming coach who sexually assaulted and raped teenage girls in his care over a period of 20 years or more. When his victims were asked why they didn't report the abuse, most replied "Because I didn't think anyone would believe me". Abusers confidently, indeed arrogantly, rely on this belief, often aggressively inculcating (instilling) the belief ("No-one will ever believe you") just after the sexual assault when their victim is in a distressed state. Targets of bullying in the workplace often come up against the same attitudes by management when they report a bullying colleague. In a workplace environment, the bully usually recruits one or two colleagues (sometimes one is a sleeping partner ) who will back up the bully's denial when called to account.
Oldies man, you are a genius as a defense attorney.
Now after he is exposed again. The usual is that he will either say he did not mean to hurt anyone, he will accommodate his client, "Weirwille", by now pointing the finger at the victim again and remind the victim that she needs to forgive....
Again, another sly attack on the person speaking up...
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Dot Matrix
Laleo
My opinion is not meant as a swipe to you. You have a beautiful heart and a compelling way of posturing your opinions.
But you did say:
“However, I still think that oldiesman's points can be debated rather than dismissed, because the victim does have a role, whether we want to acknowledge it here or not. In your examples of rapists, and Oprah, and women who meet men who suck their life savings from them -- none of us wants to be that person. Those predators will always exist, not only in The Way, where many of us met people who should have been in prison long before we crossed paths with them, but also outside of The Way. Simply leaving The Way is no more a guarantee for happiness than was being in The Way. At some point, the changes have to come from within.”
I believe that most women on here who have revealed their corps experiences with VPW have moved on.
You can talk about high school, can you not? Who does not remember a person who was not welcome at the lunch table or never chosen for sides at sports? We all know that person and perhaps some of us were that person. Because that person then speaks of their experiences, perhaps to their own child going through them currently, does not imply they have not moved on.
IT does not mean that given the situations today they would not have LEARNED from the experience.
The problem here, as I see it, is that this is an XWAY site. People come here to find out what happened and to heal. And if those of us who KNOW and experienced the core issues of deceit when we got close to VPW can help those people by letting them KNOW what we KNOW then we should.
Would anyone go on a "cancer" site and tell those who have fought the disease to stop sharing their stories?
Does aides go away if it is not discussed? Or perhaps by telling people "I got it" and HOW they got it, they can prevent another casualty.
So why here?
The concern, again is a subtle attack, once someone brings it up – if they ever bring it up again those in the gallery of the sexual abuse think, “Well, look at that, they are still not over it.” And perhaps some are not. I am. But even if some are not who are we to mandate healing?
I am completely aware that predators are not the genesis of TWI and have been around as long as the devil has been walking the earth and it is a bit ludicrous to think I would need reminding of that. However, this again, weakens the position of the one sharing their experience.
Let’s not hear them, let us point out THEIR fallacies.
Gee, a little girl rides a bike and is grabbed off the street. Damn. The lesson? She should never ride a bike. The woman asleep in her bed who is raped. Damn. Never go to sleep. The gal who is drug behind a bush. Well, stay away from landscaping. The woman asked out on a date, then loved and married a man who drained her account? Don’t date. And God forbid you should ever want to learn about Jesus from a man….
This does not negate some responsibility in "some" cases. I should not lend my car to a stranger, or open my door at 3:00 am to a knock.... But there are many situations where you are just a victim. The reason, as I see it, that perhaps we humans try so hard to make it "the victims fault" is because we want to believe we have more control over our lives and we are not as vulnerable as we REALLY are in life.
So, if we can see "a reason" this happened to her and avoid that REASON then we can prevent it from happening to ourselves...
But to the victims, this thing that we do to each other, is extremely damaging. And although most people who respond in that way (that it could have been prevented) do so out of their own fears, there are some serial bullys who pleasure in wounding the wounded... Or in this case use that hurtful response to protect the offender.
First, upon speaking up one is met with, it is why should we believe you? Then, it is how many others did this happen to? Then, it is have you accepted responsibility for your part? (Yes, I went into a motor coach to discuss Jesus with a man who said he had a special promise from God --- Oh my! I should not go places to talk to ministers about God.)
Then there are the rantings of the Move on! You must forgive squad!
The point is ALL the people screaming “move on” “I do not believe you” “recognize your part” is still by design to draw people away from recognizing VPW was a criminal so that his crimes via his legacy can live on. AND the victims can continue to be humiliated and not heard.
There are many lessons in life. Do not leave your open drink at a party then come back and drink it. Don’t go to a remote ATM at night.
BUT now we cannot jog alone, sleep in our own beds without a weapon on the nightstand and never trust a man who claims to work for God…. That is how we are to live if we accept culpability for crimes perpetrated against us. Sorry a$$ living conditions, eh?
My relative was attacked in the early evening hours while pumping gas yesterday. He was struck across the head with something then had fists flying at him. He was able to push away the attacker and drive off. Unsure if it was an attepted car jacking or what, he is now afraid to go outside.
The lesson? He should have never gotten gas.
But when he came home with his head bloody and swollen.... the first thing I said was what happened? And then I thought there had to be something he could have done to prevent this. I then reprooved myself and let him tell me over and over how frightened he was. How helpless he felt. How he drove and hid behind a fast food place because he did not want to be followed to our house.
It is irresponsible for society to constantly hang a sign around the neck of the victim saying "I bear the responsibility for the crime perpetrated against me."
Oldiesman is not speaking to save women from being hurt again. His motive is clear to me that he is protecting VPW. You, on the other hand, are a heart-felt woman who for some reason feels for him. I am not confusing your beauty with his deception.
I disagree with you but I still esteem you. I know you and you are a heck of a gal! But your kind words or assessment of oldiesman are wasted on him, in my opinion. I think he knows what he is doing and he does it well.
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GarthP2000
Excellent post, Dot!
:)-->
The main characteristic which strengthens your argument is that Oldies will *never* allow himself to stray from whitewashing his teacher's reputation. Oh he might say that VPW has 'sinned' or even committed adultery. But it is always encased in the "Well, everybody sins" category. Always. And with, as you noted, the associated blame on the victim, usually as much as possible to alleviate any real blame upon his 'Father in the Word'.
And for what? Any real good reputation and legacy accorded to Wierwille in the minds of those who were affected by his 'ministry', is either dying, or is already dead. Suffice it to say that Wierwille will NOT go down in history as a great man, ... except in the minds of the 2 or 3 who desperately cling to his memory.
Sad and wasteful, isn't it?
:(-->
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Dot Matrix
It is sad. But I am through feeling sorry for those two or three people. They have been given the truth. They have had the clouds blown from their vision and choose to follow the clouds.
So OM and M -- enjoy your defense of a criminal.
Maybe when God himself tells you that you were deceived you will accept what he says.
Maybe...
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rascal
Wow, Dott, Thankyou for identifying and articulating this so well.... I have noticed this same pattern...and with growing vexation have watched him generally succede in his attempt to discredit posters ...their accounts...eventually to derail the thread when he can`t...(I still wonder what his agenda is...it sure isn`t to participate)
Oldies ....you treat the people here dispicably...the folks whom are giving first hand accounts of the vileness of character exhibited by vp wierwille... a man whom you never met....
Your attacks and manipulation of your brothers and sisters in christ here and now ...people whom are no doubt very dear to God....in defense of the wolf that devoured and destroyed so much....makes it pretty clear to most of us just which side of the *fence* you are on....buddy.
Dott I will add that if operating true to form...once being nailed with no wiggle room.......there will be the attempt to garner sympathy...in a don`t be so mean to poor old oldies campaign...generally he succedes ....
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diazbro
In my opinion, OM possesses a willful ignorance that characterizes the VPW devotee. This is to
say that I don't think he is ignorant in the
sense that he doesn't have the capacity to
understand what people are saying but rather
he chooses to ignore the facts in support of
the legacy of VPW. But Waydale and Gspot have
always had at least one VPW loyalist and OM is
an example of this. Just keep that in mind and
you won't be surprised by anything he says.
I've said it before that I don't have a problem
with people supporting the legacy of VPW - as long as they are open about it. I can respect that alot more than I can the closeted
VPW supporter who tries to masquerade as someone who is interested in hearing points of view that don't favorably represent VPW and TWI.
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imbus
Dot...can I have your autograph? Well said, well put, well done.
Reality is ... we are all victims of TWI, one way or another. Some more severe than others.
Some have moved on, some have just started their journey of recovery and some, yes, will be stuck for years.
Even Oldie is a victim. He is so incased in TWI reality that he is not aware or just does't care, how it will effect anothers.
Shi@ happens and life is not fair but thank God there are loving folks out there that support and assist the process of healing.
As it has been said..."You are a part of the problem or part of the solution." I believe 98% of the folks that post want to heal and move on.
If a few get inspiried to be an avocate for the facts, let's not misread that as being stuck or unforgiving.
Oldies I have said in a previous post that you are the most hurt person I have come across on this web site.. I hope that one Day you heal. But I do understand that the reality of all that has been said, is very disturbing and can cause emotional deress. If your belief system keeps you safe than I support you. Although I don't like the way you treat people.
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Dot Matrix
On another thread OM just said he would go to a local TWI fellowship if one were close to him.
So, he never left TWI in his heart or actions.
Really, he is still "in" and still holding the torch for VPW. Still valuing the message of a madman and trying to carry it forth here.
He is a real live example of why we all left.
Don't ever expect change. He is an innie with a traffic Dilemma...
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excathedra
and as far as quitting a job or leaving a basturd....
come on....
no one's perfect... everyone "messes up" HA give me a break
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Dot Matrix
Wonder1 wrote the first part OM is the response.
But I will tell you if I was at work and a coworker called me into their office and sat naked and asked me to perform a lewd act I would screammmmmm! Then sue.
Again, people think VP just did this to a handful of gals... It was hundreds. It was NO mistake. It was an "on purpose" over and over again.
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excathedra
no kidding. it's a shame OM wasn't exposed to his friggin twinkie
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excathedra
and dot, forget about a coworker, more like the top dog who holds your life in their hands, so to speak....
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laleo
Hi Dot,
My mind is somewhere else at the moment -- we had a funeral, and a recital, and my daughter is now home from college, so I've been busy (plus I've developed an addiction to the PBS series "Colonial House") -- but I did want to let you know that I read your posts and appreciate the response, and also the time you took to write it. We're in agreement more than disagreement – in fact, on the points you have mentioned, we aren't really in much disagreement at all.
As far as oldiesman goes, he can speak for himself (and, if he has any decency, he will). I can understand why it sounded like I was defending him. Technically, I wasn't. However, I still think (despite Raf's and Long Gone's excellent rebuttals) that the original post presented what I think is a distorted view of the social climate in The Way, as it was experienced by most "believers." In that light, I don't think oldiesman's original post was out of line. As far as what I think of him personally – I don't. You may have overestimated the amount of sympathy I have for him, even though you correctly concluded that I don't know him – never met him, never corresponded with him, have barely interacted with him on these boards, and I don't read many of the threads he participates in.
Taking your analogy about inappropriate posts on a cancer board, the way I see some of these disputes is this: Pretend for a moment that PFAL is a cookbook, and many of us ended up with diabetes as a result of eating the cafeteria food. Oldiesman comes along and says that he has eaten the same food we've all eaten, in fact, he still uses the same cookbook, and his blood sugar levels continue to be at a low-normal. Diabetic #1 responds by saying that this is impossible. The Decadent Turbo Chocolate Devil's Dream Deluxe, all by itself, is enough to put the average person into sugar shock. Oldiesman searches for the recipe, doesn't find it in his book, reluctantly concedes that some of the ingredients are listed, but not all in the same recipe, and the rest of us wonder how he could have escaped dessert since we were force fed. We don't know the answer to that. What we do know is that we can have four siblings, all in the same family, eating the same food, and some end up with diabetes, and some do not. It isn't a question of fault, shame, or superiority. Maybe mom's cooking is to blame, but the diabetic is the one who has to cope with the consequences of her lousy cooking. That's what I mean by having responsibility. The diabetic is in a position of having to study his diet, and eat carefully and selectively to stabilize his blood sugar levels, regardless of whether anyone else ended up with diabetes or not.
Anyway, whatever ill effects we ended up with are ours to cope with. And whatever hurt or injustice we might feel by having oldiesman around to remind us he doesn't have diabetes is part of the process, too. That's how I see it.
Dot, you have a very open and caring heart, which comes through in all of your posts. I always consider what you have to say.
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imbus
Laleo,
Another well written peice. I can see from your perspective and it is "easy to be entreated".(James 3:17) However with some posters, using your anaogy... they have been very accusitory and have figuritivly stated, "You have diabeties because your a pig and have no self control". A stsement based on ignorance. When simply a pre-exisiting problem was the truth of the matter.(A predisposition for diabeties).Who would have guessed.
I know that the cake was not in Oldies cook book. But because it wasn't in his cook book does not mean it was not in mine, when in fact it was. He has leaned hard on the credability of the individuals who's cook book is different.
I know this post was in responce to anothers post. Thought I would jump into the mix.
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diazbro
laleo said:
Anyway, whatever ill effects we ended up with are ours to cope with. And whatever hurt or injustice we might feel by having oldiesman around to remind us he doesn't have diabetes is part of the process, too.
>>
Or perhaps he has yet to be diagnosed or maybe
has a different problem ? Through the years I've
met some hardcore VPW supportes many of whom later come crashing down after some breakthrough
moment with the realization that they were denying the problem all along and were expending
tremendous amounts of energy to keep the illusion going on. In my opinion OM is still
in suspension and is working hard to convince us and himself that VPW wasn't all that bad.
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oenophile
One could easily get the impression, by oldies continuing to derail the accounts of the victims of twi perpetrated abuse (physical, mental, sexual)by minimizing their suffering and by shifting blame and responsiblity to them, that he is not who is says he is. Rather than a ex-twier just trying to offer a balanced perspective, one could consider quite validly that Oldies is and always has been an twi operative whose mission is to subvert the quest for truth and to discourage others from airing their stories.
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