didn't you know that the older more sexually experienced men of god in the church are supposed to teach the fair young maidens.... godly design you know.... how he set it up....
Rascal and Vickles - your stories are so heartbreaking. I can only hope God has repaid you the years that the locusts ate (that's one of my favorite verses in the O.T.) Thank you again for sharing your stories.
Rascal, I have to know - did you ever get another horse or a dog?
I wonder some times if men have a hard time identifying with a woman's viewpoint in this situation. They can be raised so differently that it's easy for a guy to think "well, I would just say no." It's so much easier for them to do it because it's considered more acceptable. Especially in the timeframe we're discussing. Maybe it's a little easier for women now but in the 70s?
Kind of like people putting themselves into different time periods and judging others actions. "Well, I wouldn't have owned slaves, fought in that war", etc. Then add to that the difference in genders and it gets even worse.
My suggestion to those like OM would be to print their posts and have the women closest to them read it. Or their mother. Maybe a few women. How about a rape counselor? See how they view it and ask them to tell you why.
When you take the time to get their perspective, it can be a real eye-opener.
I have had this exact conversation with someone who was molested and it changed my whole way of thinking.
quote:My suggestion to those like OM would be to print their posts and have the women closest to them read it. Or their mother. Maybe a few women.
Just Thinking, that's a great suggestion. On the flip side, did it ever occur to you that there are women, thinking and feeling twi and ex-twi women, who generally agree with what i've been saying?
Internet posting aside, I hope you get as much from it as I did. Thanks for being willing to consider it or at least listening to the suggestion. Hope you have a good weekend also.
I support you and you are right on the money. Speaking from your experiance says alot.
Please remember, Om's word or opinion is not written in gold nor on Tablets. This is one mans perspective and does NOT hold the opinion of the rest of the Body of Christ. I believe your brothers here are supportive AND protective.
" A MAN CONVIENCED AGAINST HIS WILL, IS OF THE SAME OPINION STILL".
He may never change his opinion, that is his right. But ladies don't let that stop you from being validated in your own truth.
I think when a male critisizes us it touches a nerve. It brings back to us the "critical Parenting" we grew up with and you run the cycle of shame all over again.
Recognize that he is just a man, not your father, not Jesus Christ,not the MOG, not anything more.
I think he is a little Autocratic(ME MAN,you women) he is vertually harmless.
If this helps...When he post... Think of him standing 4ft.11 and having a tiny winkie. If that mind picture doesn't do it for you...try to amagin him bald, rotting teeth and a huge beer belly. BURP, Get the picture? This might help with possible "trauma maleness"
OM, Hope I didn't offend you ...just wanted to help my sisters get past the Male mistique. :D-->
Thankyou Suniesis and ex ...Yes I have to say that God has indeed attempted to restore what the locusts devoured....
The two dogs that I was forced to give away, were unexpectedly returned to me a couple of years later...just before I left twi...and as for the rest.......lol
I now have (I kid you not)...7 horses...7 dogs...and 7 kids......various and assundry other critters that have fallen under my care...oh yeah and ONE extwi husband that feels pretty put upon at times by his animal nut of a wife.. I swear that it wasn`t because I planned it this way....lol ... ya think maybe God has a sense of humor????
quote:On the flip side, did it ever occur to you that there are women, thinking and feeling twi and ex-twi women, who generally agree with what i've been saying?
Show us ONE. Just ONE. You'd think if they were there they'd step up to the plate. I cannot imagine a woman would ever "generally agree" with you on this...
As with all "polling," it will depend on how the question is worded.
"If your pastor asked you to have sex with him and that it would please God and that it wasn't adultery, would you do it?"
100% of respondents will agree with OM.
"If you were persuaded that your church was God's only true church on earth, and that disobeying your pastor was tantamount to disobeying God, and you were persuaded that God's True Word was not available outside that church, and you truly believed that, and you trusted the people who told you that with all your heart, and your pastor asked you to have sex with him and that it would please God and that it wasn't adultery, would you do it?"
I suspect that 100% number will decline somewhat. If anything, they will challenge the premise of the question. "I wouldn't be stupid enough to get involved in such a church." Maybe, but it doesn't answer the question.
His godly side: He was a Christian with a tremendous ability to teach God's Word and convey upon the listeners, respect for the written word. His dark side: he engaged in sexual harassment and adultery, plagiarism, drinking/smoking; at various times with a mean and condescending demeanor.
I am not particularly thrilled about talking about someone not able to reply for the weekend, however am I missing something here? It would appear oldiesman admits this man would/could have done the things some know to be true. Am I correct that it is the fact he is holding the woman responsible for her participation that is still in conflict here? I see some reference to another topic ties in here so indulge me if you would with the cliff notes version. Does he agree that both MOG held some of us in bondage which was an incredible abuse of clergy towards their flock?
I see that he holds some level of respect for what he was taught while a part of twi, and in that I can not convict the man of something that I myself could be accused of, as I too have not turned my back on all that I was taught while in for close to 20 years.
quote:Originally posted by oldiesman:he didn't earn it, so be it.
Have you thought about or do you realize that the difference between a state accredited institution, and a non-accredited institution, may have nothing to do with the actual workload or curriculum, but may be something as simple as a few thousand dollars paid to the state, to get the license?
Still, since Victor Paul was either too lazy, distracted, or poor to go to a state accredited institution, your contention that his doctorate isn't valid has merit.
quote:Do you really think he came up with that class? Are was it taken from someone else? Do you really think he wrote those books?
If you're referring to PFAL, I believe God worked in him to adapt it from the various teachings he learned from other men of God scattered across the continent, coupled with what he himself learned from his own study. Was it God Breathed? no. Did he get it by revelation? no. Doesn't make it any less godly, though.
quote: Tell me what you really think he was?
Just summarizing:
His godly side: He was a Christian with a tremendous ability to teach God's Word and convey upon the listeners, respect for the written word. His dark side: he engaged in sexual harassment and adultery, plagiarism, drinking/smoking; at various times with a mean and condescending demeanor.
Sorry about posting the whole post of OM. Don't know how to clip and paste just yet.
Om acknowledges and recognizes that V.P had a dark side.
With that acknowledgment I am more apt to consider his opinion. Before he sounded like a delusional Nut who was waiting for "THE RETURN"...of V.P.(figuratively)
Thank you imbus. I am trying to piece it together here. I am far from having all my demons exorcised. Wouldn't I be burnt at the stack for that one? ;)--> But I find it easier to see the bigger picture than I once did.
The big picture is always hard to come by when you have limited knowledge. That is what GS is for. To hear others views, right or wrong, good ,bad or indifferent! After 5 months of posting here I am starting to feel normal again.
quote:I see some reference to another topic ties in here so indulge me if you would with the cliff notes version. Does he agree that both MOG held some of us in bondage which was an incredible abuse of clergy towards their flock?
I don't know that there is a cliff notes version... I see you're kinda new here...
The easiest way to find out about what a person thinks is to click on their name and take a look at their posts. If you'll click on OM's name, then on "veiw recent posts" it'll take you to a bunch of pages with a lot of posts sorted by topic. You can do that with any poster.
That way you can form your own opinions based upon what that person posted, not on what someone else says.
Look for the topics "Using the Word to Control", "Why some people don't get the abuse stories", "Child Abuse in TWI", "TWI taught us to be abusers" and I think there just might be one in there on "Adultry" as well...
You'll have to read it yourself, it'll also give you background on some of the "feelings" going back and forth here...
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excathedra
another reason outside of being retarded....
didn't you know that the older more sexually experienced men of god in the church are supposed to teach the fair young maidens.... godly design you know.... how he set it up....
straight from veepeeg's mouth
DUH i forgot to ask him "chapter and verse"
thanks for the memory (bob hope)
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excathedra
"boo hoo sob sob the care of all the churches are upon me daily.... blowme...."
**
"no do it this way.... the man you marry will be so blessed...."
ha !!!!
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vickles
oops sorry
Edited by vicklesLink to comment
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Tom Strange
you're too funny myseestorEx!
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excathedra
thank you tommy
;)-->
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Tom Strange
but wasn't it Uncle Harry who said: "thanks for the mammaries"..?
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Sunesis
Rascal and Vickles - your stories are so heartbreaking. I can only hope God has repaid you the years that the locusts ate (that's one of my favorite verses in the O.T.) Thank you again for sharing your stories.
Rascal, I have to know - did you ever get another horse or a dog?
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excathedra
i hope the same thing as sunesis does for you, dear ladies
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Abigail
"I say I was very gullible and vulnerable. "
"This could sound like BS now since I’m older and not in a cult. But I remember what it was like."
Gullible.
Young.
Vulnerable.
See oldies, these women recognize they had some degree of responsibility. It was just laid out for you.
So is it worse to be young, gullible and vullnerable or older, wiser, and predatory?
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JustThinking
I wonder some times if men have a hard time identifying with a woman's viewpoint in this situation. They can be raised so differently that it's easy for a guy to think "well, I would just say no." It's so much easier for them to do it because it's considered more acceptable. Especially in the timeframe we're discussing. Maybe it's a little easier for women now but in the 70s?
Kind of like people putting themselves into different time periods and judging others actions. "Well, I wouldn't have owned slaves, fought in that war", etc. Then add to that the difference in genders and it gets even worse.
My suggestion to those like OM would be to print their posts and have the women closest to them read it. Or their mother. Maybe a few women. How about a rape counselor? See how they view it and ask them to tell you why.
When you take the time to get their perspective, it can be a real eye-opener.
I have had this exact conversation with someone who was molested and it changed my whole way of thinking.
JT
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oldiesman
Consider it a possibility ...
Have a great weekend, one and all...
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JustThinking
Oldies,
Thank you. And I do see some of your points.
Internet posting aside, I hope you get as much from it as I did. Thanks for being willing to consider it or at least listening to the suggestion. Hope you have a good weekend also.
JT
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imbus
Ladies,
I support you and you are right on the money. Speaking from your experiance says alot.
Please remember, Om's word or opinion is not written in gold nor on Tablets. This is one mans perspective and does NOT hold the opinion of the rest of the Body of Christ. I believe your brothers here are supportive AND protective.
" A MAN CONVIENCED AGAINST HIS WILL, IS OF THE SAME OPINION STILL".
He may never change his opinion, that is his right. But ladies don't let that stop you from being validated in your own truth.
I think when a male critisizes us it touches a nerve. It brings back to us the "critical Parenting" we grew up with and you run the cycle of shame all over again.
Recognize that he is just a man, not your father, not Jesus Christ,not the MOG, not anything more.
I think he is a little Autocratic(ME MAN,you women) he is vertually harmless.
If this helps...When he post... Think of him standing 4ft.11 and having a tiny winkie. If that mind picture doesn't do it for you...try to amagin him bald, rotting teeth and a huge beer belly. BURP, Get the picture? This might help with possible "trauma maleness"
OM, Hope I didn't offend you ...just wanted to help my sisters get past the Male mistique.
:D-->
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rascal
Thankyou Suniesis and ex ...Yes I have to say that God has indeed attempted to restore what the locusts devoured....
The two dogs that I was forced to give away, were unexpectedly returned to me a couple of years later...just before I left twi...and as for the rest.......lol
I now have (I kid you not)...7 horses...7 dogs...and 7 kids......various and assundry other critters that have fallen under my care...oh yeah and ONE extwi husband that feels pretty put upon at times by his animal nut of a wife.. I swear that it wasn`t because I planned it this way....lol ... ya think maybe God has a sense of humor????
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Tom Strange
OM said:
Show us ONE. Just ONE. You'd think if they were there they'd step up to the plate. I cannot imagine a woman would ever "generally agree" with you on this...Link to comment
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Raf
As with all "polling," it will depend on how the question is worded.
"If your pastor asked you to have sex with him and that it would please God and that it wasn't adultery, would you do it?"
100% of respondents will agree with OM.
"If you were persuaded that your church was God's only true church on earth, and that disobeying your pastor was tantamount to disobeying God, and you were persuaded that God's True Word was not available outside that church, and you truly believed that, and you trusted the people who told you that with all your heart, and your pastor asked you to have sex with him and that it would please God and that it wasn't adultery, would you do it?"
I suspect that 100% number will decline somewhat. If anything, they will challenge the premise of the question. "I wouldn't be stupid enough to get involved in such a church." Maybe, but it doesn't answer the question.
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Tom Strange
No Raf... here's how OM needs to show they approve... THEY need to READ every post on this thread... and that other thread...
Then they can post what they feel... of course, they can post what they feel anyway... all they have to do is register...
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excathedra
i'm sure there are men - and women - who would agree with oldies
so what ?
(i don't mean for that to sound harsh)
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houseisarockin
I am not particularly thrilled about talking about someone not able to reply for the weekend, however am I missing something here? It would appear oldiesman admits this man would/could have done the things some know to be true. Am I correct that it is the fact he is holding the woman responsible for her participation that is still in conflict here? I see some reference to another topic ties in here so indulge me if you would with the cliff notes version. Does he agree that both MOG held some of us in bondage which was an incredible abuse of clergy towards their flock?
I see that he holds some level of respect for what he was taught while a part of twi, and in that I can not convict the man of something that I myself could be accused of, as I too have not turned my back on all that I was taught while in for close to 20 years.
And thank you Tom Strange.
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imbus
/
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imbus
Sorry about posting the whole post of OM. Don't know how to clip and paste just yet.
Om acknowledges and recognizes that V.P had a dark side.
With that acknowledgment I am more apt to consider his opinion. Before he sounded like a delusional Nut who was waiting for "THE RETURN"...of V.P.(figuratively)
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houseisarockin
Thank you imbus. I am trying to piece it together here. I am far from having all my demons exorcised. Wouldn't I be burnt at the stack for that one?
;)--> But I find it easier to see the bigger picture than I once did.
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imbus
The big picture is always hard to come by when you have limited knowledge. That is what GS is for. To hear others views, right or wrong, good ,bad or indifferent! After 5 months of posting here I am starting to feel normal again.
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Tom Strange
House said:
I don't know that there is a cliff notes version... I see you're kinda new here...The easiest way to find out about what a person thinks is to click on their name and take a look at their posts. If you'll click on OM's name, then on "veiw recent posts" it'll take you to a bunch of pages with a lot of posts sorted by topic. You can do that with any poster.
That way you can form your own opinions based upon what that person posted, not on what someone else says.
Look for the topics "Using the Word to Control", "Why some people don't get the abuse stories", "Child Abuse in TWI", "TWI taught us to be abusers" and I think there just might be one in there on "Adultry" as well...
You'll have to read it yourself, it'll also give you background on some of the "feelings" going back and forth here...
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