Good Pat....hold their feet to the fire........As long as you keep shining the legal light on em...they have to keep their noses particularly squeaky clean....ie KNOWING that thy are under scrutiny forces them to curtail some of their more nefarious activities....imo
I find the counterclaim rather interesting. According to item 45, "A recognized cornerstone by most religious experts as to whether a religious group is a Christian-based one or not is the belief in the Trinity. TWI's publication "Jesus Christ is Not God" is a refutation and disparagement of this belief."
To the best of my knowledge, the "Path of Christ" ministry is currently recommending the CES book "One God and One Lord," which shares the theology espoused in "Jesus Christ is Not God."
So, Pat, is the Path of Christ Ministry a Christian-based one?
I'm just curious, because a major thrust of your counterclaim is that you would not have gotten involved with TWI had you known it was a non-Christian organization (item 2). Item 45 is presented as supportive of the contention that TWI is not Christian, but that same standard would suggest to me that you are not Christian either.
The counterclaim has nothing to do with my personal beliefs. And for the record,I have supported CES, CFF, and others even if I don't agree with their theology.
If they at least try to act civillay towards others and are not cult-like. Look at my believers links page.
The thrust is misrepresentation by TWI to the general public. If you advertise to the general public that you are a christian based group, and yet you desparage those orthodox christian beliefs, you are misrepresenting yourself to the public.
And TWI misrepresented themselves as a Christian organization when in reality, monetary gain was their motivation for what they did, which is the issue I stated in the counterclaim.
I'm on your believer links page, as you are on mine. That's not the point.
The point is, using the same criteria you claim proves that TWI is misrepresenting itself to the public, the same can be said about you. You claim Path of Christ is Christian based, yet you disparage the Trinity and give money to organizations which actively disparage the Trinity.
You don't see anything, I don't know, WRONG with this?
quote:And TWI misrepresented themselves as a Christian organization when in reality, monetary gain was their motivation for what they did, which is the issue I stated in the counterclaim.
Fine, but that's got nothing to do with the Trinity. What does monetary gain have to do with item 45? I'm asking you about the importance of item 45. Can you offer an explanation of how item 45 discredits TWI without discrediting you?
It's holding TWI legally accountable for espousing a doctrine you, too, espouse. That's the point.
My beliefs are irrelevant, true. But your beliefs are entirely relevant because, in case you hadn't noticed, you're a part of the case.
So spare me the pious "they made money off it" deal, because that's NOT the point of item 45. You threw item 45 in there to prejudice the case against them, and IT (item 45) is cynical and hypocritical because you disagree with the very authorities you are claiming have some say in what makes an organization Christian or not.
quote:TWI gained financially by their deception.
Are you saying that rejection of the Trinity is deception, but that's only bad when you profit off it?
I keep asking you, what's the point of item 45? If you don't want to answer, don't. But don't feign to answer it when you're not.
If you would have read the line 45 carefully, you would notice that it is a ground for the trademark to be cancelled. It has nothing to do with my personal experience.
TWI made numerous public disparaging remarks from their pulpit about christian beliefs, and churches as a whole. They wrote books disparaging the beliefs. They sent ambassadors out to do it.
The point that you miss is that it is not a complaint about my experience with TWI, it is about the grounds for cancelling the trademark. Read the heading above.
What you or I believe is irrelevant. What is relevant is the corporate practice and how they did business with the public.
I do not do business with the public, neither does your website. We freely offer our information and do not charge money under false pretenses.
Enough of line 45. You want to discuss something important?
Ok, fair enough. Line 45 has nothing to do with your experience.
But it does have to do with the trademark, ...
how, exactly? Because a non-trinitarian doesn't have the right to claim to be a Christian and thus a follower of "The Way," Jesus Christ?
Item 45 is irrelevant to every part of your claim, Pat. The law cannot, CANnot allow scholars or partisans to dictate what is Christian and what is not. As such, item 45 has no relevance to the trademark issue as a matter of fact or law.
Pat, when you get into this battle, please, please, arm yourself.
P.S. I wasn't ignoring you in chat. I just didn't see you there.
From a follower of the WAy I received a copy of an article with the above caption. Naturally I was Interested and I know you must be also. I have noticed in my teaching travels across the country that there are a number of groups who refer to themselves as "THE WAY". I just recently heard of a radio broadcast called "The WAy" I have a small publication in my office which is being circulated rather widely in northern Ohio, published by a group called "The Way".It is such a wonderful name and everyone who is a Christian is entitled to call himself "The Way". - Victor Paul Wierwille
If your interested PJ in this little gem email me.
I don't know if "we" should get so hung up about the individual items in the countersuit... it appears to me that Pat's throwing a whole lot of things "up against the wall" just to make sure that they get "out in the open" and TWI has to answer them (I believe), no matter how we may view them.
And depending upon their answers, it opens up the issues for rebuttal... (of course, I'm not a lawyer, I just play one on TV)...
quote: Victor Paul Wierwille, founding president of TWI was misrepresented from TWI's inception as having a doctorate degree and was passed off as Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille.
However Wierwille's "doctorate" was purchased from an ill-reputed and un-accredited mill. This deception was deliberate with the express intent to deceive the public.
I think it was Raf (on another thread) who pointed out that VPW did indeed do the work to attain doctorate status, altho he did it through an un-accredited institution.
Wouldn't it be hard to "prove" that this was a deliberate action, expressly intending to deceive the public. -->
Maybe you see it a different way, but that is just my "IMHO". Tossing it out for you to consider.
Way to go Pat I'm all for you and I hope you win!!!!!!!! sounds to me like TWI is a little shortt on ABS so they are trying to get it from you. Praying for you, Dovey
You hit the nail on the head. In any lawsuit, there are many more charges made than may stick. It is expected that some will be trimmed off.
For example, I listed 3 grounds upon which TWI's trademark should be cancelled. By law, any one of them is sufficient to accomplish this.
The most controversial has been the infamous # 45. It is grounds # 3 to cancel, namely bringing disrepute to a belief and so forth.
2 questions to ask yourself:
#1) If you were a stranger on the street and a church said they were pentecostal, you would have a certain expectation of beliefs, or if the church was jewish another expectation, and if muslim etc.
If someone said that there was a christian bible study, your expectation would be standard beliefs such as the trinity, 3 crucified, crosses, easter etc.
Would TWI's alice in wonderland beliefs of eve being a lesbian etc. be what you expected? Would you feel that TWI misrepresented who they were and what they stand for?
#2) If you were to look at TWI as an example of christianity, would you have a favorable opinion of christianity? If not, #3 of bringing disrepute to a belief is what we are talking about...
And yes, I hope to have many things to talk about in front of the jury, who will be comprised of everyday folk who will be judging TWI by the way their attorney acts and the actual issues.
When they hear for example that someone who may have travelled cross country to visit their childs grave, and then are denied access because they don't have an appointment.
And then TWI hands them a cemetary policy sheet and says to make an appointment with alternate days, what do you think a jury will think about TWI?
Many of us may have done the work to qualify for a specific degree. That doesn't matter. What does matter is that it was done under the supervision of an accredited institution as per their requirements.
If I studied medicine on my own enough to know the material and started passing myself off as an MD, would that be fraud?
The answer would be yes as evidenced by the handcuffs on your wrists as you are led away by the police who caught you pretending to be doctor .....
quote:sounds to me like TWI is a little shortt on ABS so they are trying to get it from you.
TWI knows or should know that there are no assets that I possess that they will get if they win. My wife and I live very modestly and our net worth is below what TWI can attach by Vermont Law.....
However, TWI's attorneys are raking in about $1000 an hour as there are 3 assigned to the case. Your ABS at work.....
Rumor has it that after the peeler transcripts came out, Rosie was on a tear for weeks. I guess that my posting of the info below has made them a little upset.
Perhaps it is also because of the comments GS posters have made about the truthfullness of Rosie's testamony....
03-03-04 Rosalie Rivenbark's Handwritten note faxed to TWI's attorneys about the McMullen trial
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rascal
Good Pat....hold their feet to the fire........As long as you keep shining the legal light on em...they have to keep their noses particularly squeaky clean....ie KNOWING that thy are under scrutiny forces them to curtail some of their more nefarious activities....imo
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pjroberge
Rascal,
I htink you will find some of the points in my counterclaim rather interesting.
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Raf
I find the counterclaim rather interesting. According to item 45, "A recognized cornerstone by most religious experts as to whether a religious group is a Christian-based one or not is the belief in the Trinity. TWI's publication "Jesus Christ is Not God" is a refutation and disparagement of this belief."
To the best of my knowledge, the "Path of Christ" ministry is currently recommending the CES book "One God and One Lord," which shares the theology espoused in "Jesus Christ is Not God."
So, Pat, is the Path of Christ Ministry a Christian-based one?
I'm just curious, because a major thrust of your counterclaim is that you would not have gotten involved with TWI had you known it was a non-Christian organization (item 2). Item 45 is presented as supportive of the contention that TWI is not Christian, but that same standard would suggest to me that you are not Christian either.
Just trying to see the relevance of item 45.
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pjroberge
Raf,
The counterclaim has nothing to do with my personal beliefs. And for the record,I have supported CES, CFF, and others even if I don't agree with their theology.
If they at least try to act civillay towards others and are not cult-like. Look at my believers links page.
The thrust is misrepresentation by TWI to the general public. If you advertise to the general public that you are a christian based group, and yet you desparage those orthodox christian beliefs, you are misrepresenting yourself to the public.
And TWI misrepresented themselves as a Christian organization when in reality, monetary gain was their motivation for what they did, which is the issue I stated in the counterclaim.
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Raf
I'm on your believer links page, as you are on mine. That's not the point.
The point is, using the same criteria you claim proves that TWI is misrepresenting itself to the public, the same can be said about you. You claim Path of Christ is Christian based, yet you disparage the Trinity and give money to organizations which actively disparage the Trinity.
You don't see anything, I don't know, WRONG with this?
Fine, but that's got nothing to do with the Trinity. What does monetary gain have to do with item 45? I'm asking you about the importance of item 45. Can you offer an explanation of how item 45 discredits TWI without discrediting you?
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pjroberge
People are not devoting their money and years of their life to me.They did to TWI. That's the point.
TWI gained financially by their deception. My or your beliefs again are irrelevant.
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Raf
No, item 45 is irrelevant. That's the point.
It's showboating. That's the point.
It's holding TWI legally accountable for espousing a doctrine you, too, espouse. That's the point.
My beliefs are irrelevant, true. But your beliefs are entirely relevant because, in case you hadn't noticed, you're a part of the case.
So spare me the pious "they made money off it" deal, because that's NOT the point of item 45. You threw item 45 in there to prejudice the case against them, and IT (item 45) is cynical and hypocritical because you disagree with the very authorities you are claiming have some say in what makes an organization Christian or not.
Are you saying that rejection of the Trinity is deception, but that's only bad when you profit off it?
I keep asking you, what's the point of item 45? If you don't want to answer, don't. But don't feign to answer it when you're not.
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Raf
If you think I'm being hard on you, wait until their lawyers get through with you.
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pjroberge
Rafael,
If you would have read the line 45 carefully, you would notice that it is a ground for the trademark to be cancelled. It has nothing to do with my personal experience.
TWI made numerous public disparaging remarks from their pulpit about christian beliefs, and churches as a whole. They wrote books disparaging the beliefs. They sent ambassadors out to do it.
The point that you miss is that it is not a complaint about my experience with TWI, it is about the grounds for cancelling the trademark. Read the heading above.
What you or I believe is irrelevant. What is relevant is the corporate practice and how they did business with the public.
I do not do business with the public, neither does your website. We freely offer our information and do not charge money under false pretenses.
Enough of line 45. You want to discuss something important?
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LG
The "Pro Se" on the signature line pretty well sums it up.
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Raf
Ok, fair enough. Line 45 has nothing to do with your experience.
But it does have to do with the trademark, ...
how, exactly? Because a non-trinitarian doesn't have the right to claim to be a Christian and thus a follower of "The Way," Jesus Christ?
Item 45 is irrelevant to every part of your claim, Pat. The law cannot, CANnot allow scholars or partisans to dictate what is Christian and what is not. As such, item 45 has no relevance to the trademark issue as a matter of fact or law.
Pat, when you get into this battle, please, please, arm yourself.
P.S. I wasn't ignoring you in chat. I just didn't see you there.
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WhiteDove
Followers Of THE WAY
From a follower of the WAy I received a copy of an article with the above caption. Naturally I was Interested and I know you must be also. I have noticed in my teaching travels across the country that there are a number of groups who refer to themselves as "THE WAY". I just recently heard of a radio broadcast called "The WAy" I have a small publication in my office which is being circulated rather widely in northern Ohio, published by a group called "The Way".It is such a wonderful name and everyone who is a Christian is entitled to call himself "The Way". - Victor Paul Wierwille
If your interested PJ in this little gem email me.
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Cynic
To establish TWI's illegitimacy, Pat has invoked Trinitarianism as a fundamental belief for legitimate Christian theism.
Somebody pinch me.
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Tom Strange
I don't know if "we" should get so hung up about the individual items in the countersuit... it appears to me that Pat's throwing a whole lot of things "up against the wall" just to make sure that they get "out in the open" and TWI has to answer them (I believe), no matter how we may view them.
And depending upon their answers, it opens up the issues for rebuttal... (of course, I'm not a lawyer, I just play one on TV)...
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dmiller
Cynic -- consider yourself "pinched"!
:D-->
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dmiller
Pat -- you said in item #9
I think it was Raf (on another thread) who pointed out that VPW did indeed do the work to attain doctorate status, altho he did it through an un-accredited institution.
Wouldn't it be hard to "prove" that this was a deliberate action, expressly intending to deceive the public.
-->
Maybe you see it a different way, but that is just my "IMHO". Tossing it out for you to consider.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Good luck Pj...I'm always glad to see someone stand up against those miscreants.
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dmiller
Still trying to get to #45. Puter is cutting me off on that one.
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wyteduv58
Way to go Pat I'm all for you and I hope you win!!!!!!!! sounds to me like TWI is a little shortt on ABS so they are trying to get it from you. Praying for you, Dovey
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pjroberge
Tom,
You hit the nail on the head. In any lawsuit, there are many more charges made than may stick. It is expected that some will be trimmed off.
For example, I listed 3 grounds upon which TWI's trademark should be cancelled. By law, any one of them is sufficient to accomplish this.
The most controversial has been the infamous # 45. It is grounds # 3 to cancel, namely bringing disrepute to a belief and so forth.
2 questions to ask yourself:
#1) If you were a stranger on the street and a church said they were pentecostal, you would have a certain expectation of beliefs, or if the church was jewish another expectation, and if muslim etc.
If someone said that there was a christian bible study, your expectation would be standard beliefs such as the trinity, 3 crucified, crosses, easter etc.
Would TWI's alice in wonderland beliefs of eve being a lesbian etc. be what you expected? Would you feel that TWI misrepresented who they were and what they stand for?
#2) If you were to look at TWI as an example of christianity, would you have a favorable opinion of christianity? If not, #3 of bringing disrepute to a belief is what we are talking about...
And yes, I hope to have many things to talk about in front of the jury, who will be comprised of everyday folk who will be judging TWI by the way their attorney acts and the actual issues.
When they hear for example that someone who may have travelled cross country to visit their childs grave, and then are denied access because they don't have an appointment.
And then TWI hands them a cemetary policy sheet and says to make an appointment with alternate days, what do you think a jury will think about TWI?
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pjroberge
regarding VPW's "doctorate"
Many of us may have done the work to qualify for a specific degree. That doesn't matter. What does matter is that it was done under the supervision of an accredited institution as per their requirements.
If I studied medicine on my own enough to know the material and started passing myself off as an MD, would that be fraud?
The answer would be yes as evidenced by the handcuffs on your wrists as you are led away by the police who caught you pretending to be doctor .....
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pjroberge
However, TWI's attorneys are raking in about $1000 an hour as there are 3 assigned to the case. Your ABS at work.....
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excathedra
wonder why they decided to sue you now ? they're trying to get their lawyers to take the class ?
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pjroberge
Dear Ex,
Rumor has it that after the peeler transcripts came out, Rosie was on a tear for weeks. I guess that my posting of the info below has made them a little upset.
Perhaps it is also because of the comments GS posters have made about the truthfullness of Rosie's testamony....
03-03-04 Rosalie Rivenbark's Handwritten note faxed to TWI's attorneys about the McMullen trial
2-17-04 The Doug McMullen Trial
1-27-04 The Way International's Property
In The Toledo, Ohio Area
1-20-04 Peeler Case Evidentiary
Hearing March 19, 2003 Court Testimony
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