quote:Just a thought, but I've often wondered if codependent personalities is the reason why a lot of us stayed in twi for years AFTER we recognized things were very screwed up.
Very possible I would think. One of the chief 'tactics' (both in WC and in twigs) is to make their followers 'co-dependent'.
A therapist once defined co-dependency to me as "taking your temperature to see how I feel"... this is exactly the behavior TWI builds in it's followers.
If we weren't co-dependent when we got there, they did everything they could to make us that way.
That's one of the reasons it was so hard to walk away.
I was thinking more in terms of the 1940's through the early 1960's. But even so, having been divorced myself in the mid-80's, I experienced a few jerks with that mindset, so I know it was still out there....
And no, she would not necessarily have been well-provided for in a divorce. Wierwille earned a small salary from TWI. The benefits (the plane, motorcoach, housekeeping, etc.) were all picked up by the organization.
quote:"...but I want to talk about the possibility that some of it could be generational." [
If we want to support that theory, then possibly we could look Mrs Wierwille's peers, like Dorothy Owens, Emmogene Allen, etc. Were they also submissive in the same ways as Mrs Wierwille? If they were, then Radar possibly has a good point for the generational thing as being "some of it".
I never observed VPW and his treatment of Mrs Wierwille, but I will offer this.
Today there are religious groups where the women/wives are expected to be submissive. They base this upon their interpretation of scripture. These groups exist in today's society and not necessarily in 1930's rural communities. The people involved are of a different generation than Mrs. Wierwille, yet there is still the submission thing going on. It goes on in TWI to this day - and the folks were not raised with 30's values - they come from all walks of live and from differing cultures.
Also consider that marriages are different, even within a group like TWI. In one marriage the husband may be more damanding of submission than in another marriage. One woman may be more prone to submissivenes than another. Personalities are different.
I would guess that, considering VPW's personality that anyone married to him would have to have been pretty submissive, regardless of what generation they may have been raised in. Tack on his religious beliefs and his moginess, and I doubt that the generational thing was too much of a factor in Mrs. Wierwilles "submissiveness." -- "Some of it" maybe, but I doubt very much.
quote: Tack on his religious beliefs and his moginess, and I doubt that the generational thing was too much of a factor in Mrs. Wierwilles "submissiveness."
Moginess?? --> Goey -- I think you have added another word to the GS vocabulary. :)-->
Did vic abuse her in public? I guess it depends on how you define abuse.
In public he put on quite a show. He "fawned" over her, calling her Dottie. I doubt that he had even a sliver of the affection for her that he pretended in public to have. It was always about him...not her. He wanted to have this image of being a loving, caring, adoring, and doting husband, who put her on a pedistal. It was an act. Just one more con by the huckster vic. He was an extremely selfish man who always had to have the spotlight on himself.
IMHO Dottie was abused in public by the sheer act of veepee's charade. He used her like a prop. She must have seen the hypocracy and felt used. Afterall, how can you feel like your on a pedistal when old vics out in the motorcoach with his young female "corps kids"? I suppose she kept up a front for him because she was a "dutiful" wife...whatever that is. Don't forget that vic was fired from his preaching job at the church (early on)...for his sexual exploits. This was no new revelation for Dorthea, she knew where she stood early on.
I think she was sorta like Don Corleone's wife in the first Godfather movie. She lost herself in raising the children and keeping the house. Vic demanded that she keep her nose out of his business and be happy being the "first lady". Afterall, all the women in the kingdom belong to the king. Even as all of us, who kissed the ring of the "great man"...she also was abused in her own unique way.
But when in public he was so eager to abuse others it was a lesson to all that if you did the same you would get the same treatment. So therefore you would have the coffee so so and every thing else. It was a conditioning, a learned thing that grew as time went. And he talked down to her also. Maybe it wasn't at the SNS but it was done.
She loved her Gold flat ware I can asure you. I put them in the wrong place and was told by her what a f--- -- I was. They were abusers. Shi- rolls down hill. If you lived with them you would know.
Great points in the replies. Where would she go what would she do if she left him. How would she suport herself and kids. How would she be treated by her peers. All of you that have divorced know these hard questions. At what exspence do you stay are leave. Being in a marriage for 28 years I understand from my vantage point. The sofa is not made to sleep on but you do what you have to, to make the next day and month and year.
Financial abuse was definitely in play here. Wierwille had managed to achieve great wealth, but because it was all tied up in the organization, she would have no access to it without his approval.
"IMHO Dottie was abused in public by the sheer act of veepee's charade. He used her like a prop. She must have seen the hypocracy and felt used. Afterall, how can you feel like your on a pedistal when old vics out in the motorcoach with his young female "corps kids"? I suppose she kept up a front for him because she was a "dutiful" wife...whatever that is. Don't forget that vic was fired from his preaching job at the church (early on)...for his sexual exploits. This was no new revelation for Dorthea, she knew where she stood early on."
______________________
Great Points UH.
I just remember how the vast majority of Way Corps treated people. Maybe back in the early 70s before the Way Corps program things were not as bad but as years past the "in your face" mentality dominated TWI. I saw people pushed up against walls by leaders. called all sorts of vulgarity and accused falsely not privately but in public. It became an accepted standard of confrontation condoned and instilled by the leaders. Its was VPs Way Corps leadership program. He oversaw it. He was responsible for this evolution of out of control anger that prevailed in TWI. He condoned abusive behavior therefore he was an abuser himself. The very nature and foundation of TWI was confrontation. We're right your wrong.
I am not saying that there were no good corps, there were. But they were far and few and in between. Remember the old TWI logic.."love is not an emotion" and how it was used to justify in your face confrontations. The corps were programed to confront.
Then the kicker is VP went with LCM as Pres. The master of abuse. That choice brought confrontaion and abuse to new heights as we here can attest to. I conclude...VP must have been an abuser based on what was accepted and condoned while he was at the helm. His choices and results point clearly at an abusive man, himself. In public he was one thing but behind closed doors with all the statistics and information available about the characteristics of an abuser VP fits the criteria completely.
quote: I don't know but going down the road i can see her sitting there in the front with the pig in the back with the door closed and a victom willing or unwilling.
So then let me get this straight...while Victor Paul was giving it to some young babe, Mrs. Wierwille knew exactly what was going on and on the lookout in the front?
Now there's a tale I never thought i'd hear...
quote:She loved her Gold flat ware I can asure you. I put them in the wrong place and was told by her what a f--- -- I was.
Geeze, for Mrs. Wierwille to say that, you must've really screwed up her gold flatware. I bet you never did that again.
Damn right she knew oldies ... dott matrix can atest to this...
I know that Mrs. W said that when she caught on to his shenanigans...when she got upset...he got very nasty and said * if you don`t like it...you can just get the hell out.
She had no place to go....as I understand it her mother was nearly impossible to live with ...which I kind of figure is why she ran off with ole vp in the first place....poor thing looking for love ...and ends up with such a mean ****....
Her words at his funeral said it all...*he was a mean, mean man*
and danny said "I don't know but going down the road i can see her sitting there in the front with the pig in the back with the door closed and a victom willing or unwilling."
did you get the part about "i dont know but going down the road i can see...."
AND he said victim willing or unwilling
and you said Victor Paul was giving it to some babe
quote:and just because danny said she told him what a f--**** up he was, doesn't mean she used the word f--****. come on.
Sounds to me like she told him cause he put the gold flatware in the wrong place. He must've really screwed that flatware up. I mean, how bad can you be with gold flatware?
VP knocked over a podium back during a SNS in the 70's out of anger. As he knocked that ol podium to the ground he said with a threat.." Billy Bright..someone should take you out behind the barn." He was a maniac..used scripture as a tool for demeaning people. Yet I am convinced if Billy Bright was in the room that night he would have given ol Vic a better fight than that old podium. Hypocrats are real tuff hiding behind their lack of self esteem but when actually having toconfront their victims face to face they wallow away in feeble cowardness.
Vic along with his low self esteem and uncontrolled anger was a drunk that chain smoked. Instead of poking threats and accusations at everyone else he should have looked into the mirror and faced the real enemy of his soul.
This is in my humble opinion. Regardless of the times, men never should have been mean or physically abused their wives. I was brought up by my family and culture (Scotch-Irish from Boston) to treat women like a lady. I am old-fashioned I assume. I believe in opening doors for women, tipping my hat if I am wearing one, and pay for the entertainment when we are on a date. I help my wife clean the house because she works, too. Sometimes, I like to surprise her by having the entire house done before she gets home and needs to sit back and relax. She has done this for me. I also know she likes a good neck and back massage and a chilled glass of wine every now and then after work. So I make sure that is supplied. I think she is a doll and always will. I cannot imagine a man wanting to abuse his wife. Not in any time.
I think the 'generational' stuff puts pressure on people, but ultimately we make our own choices. Radar's uncle could have found something other than serial adultery to spend that time and energy on; he chose to do what he did. Same for VP.
I never saw my dad hit my mom. My sisters say he could be abusive. He died when I was 9. He used to spank me but he was not brutal.
As for whether or not a man should ever hit a woman....Clint Eastwood did so in at least 2 of his movies: The Gauntlet, and Sudden Impact. Didn't hurt his career. Paul Newman may have scripted himself out of a best actor oscar in his 1982 movie 'The Verdict' by allowing his character, a lawyer, to punch a woman in the mouth who had been sabotaging him behind his back. Art imitates life.
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WB said:
Very possible I would think. One of the chief 'tactics' (both in WC and in twigs) is to make their followers 'co-dependent'.A therapist once defined co-dependency to me as "taking your temperature to see how I feel"... this is exactly the behavior TWI builds in it's followers.
If we weren't co-dependent when we got there, they did everything they could to make us that way.
That's one of the reasons it was so hard to walk away.
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shazdancer
Dear waterbuffalo,
I was thinking more in terms of the 1940's through the early 1960's. But even so, having been divorced myself in the mid-80's, I experienced a few jerks with that mindset, so I know it was still out there....
And no, she would not necessarily have been well-provided for in a divorce. Wierwille earned a small salary from TWI. The benefits (the plane, motorcoach, housekeeping, etc.) were all picked up by the organization.
Regards,
Shaz
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Goey
Radar Posted:
If we want to support that theory, then possibly we could look Mrs Wierwille's peers, like Dorothy Owens, Emmogene Allen, etc. Were they also submissive in the same ways as Mrs Wierwille? If they were, then Radar possibly has a good point for the generational thing as being "some of it".
I never observed VPW and his treatment of Mrs Wierwille, but I will offer this.
Today there are religious groups where the women/wives are expected to be submissive. They base this upon their interpretation of scripture. These groups exist in today's society and not necessarily in 1930's rural communities. The people involved are of a different generation than Mrs. Wierwille, yet there is still the submission thing going on. It goes on in TWI to this day - and the folks were not raised with 30's values - they come from all walks of live and from differing cultures.
Also consider that marriages are different, even within a group like TWI. In one marriage the husband may be more damanding of submission than in another marriage. One woman may be more prone to submissivenes than another. Personalities are different.
I would guess that, considering VPW's personality that anyone married to him would have to have been pretty submissive, regardless of what generation they may have been raised in. Tack on his religious beliefs and his moginess, and I doubt that the generational thing was too much of a factor in Mrs. Wierwilles "submissiveness." -- "Some of it" maybe, but I doubt very much.
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WordWolf
Trying to stick to the main topic....
All I've got is speculation and supposition based on first-hand accounts.
I do not suspect he physically abused her, hit her, etc.
I think we're talking about the other kinds, though.
I suspect he used the "carrot-and-stick" approach- loving, but insistent that
things go exactly in accordance with his whims, or she would get a lot of grief.
My suspicion is that, primarily, it was NOT about money for her.
However, this is all speculation, and I can't exactly interrogate her.
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dmiller
Moginess??
--> Goey -- I think you have added another word to the GS vocabulary. 
:)-->
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GrouchoMarxJr
Did vic abuse her in public? I guess it depends on how you define abuse.
In public he put on quite a show. He "fawned" over her, calling her Dottie. I doubt that he had even a sliver of the affection for her that he pretended in public to have. It was always about him...not her. He wanted to have this image of being a loving, caring, adoring, and doting husband, who put her on a pedistal. It was an act. Just one more con by the huckster vic. He was an extremely selfish man who always had to have the spotlight on himself.
IMHO Dottie was abused in public by the sheer act of veepee's charade. He used her like a prop. She must have seen the hypocracy and felt used. Afterall, how can you feel like your on a pedistal when old vics out in the motorcoach with his young female "corps kids"? I suppose she kept up a front for him because she was a "dutiful" wife...whatever that is. Don't forget that vic was fired from his preaching job at the church (early on)...for his sexual exploits. This was no new revelation for Dorthea, she knew where she stood early on.
I think she was sorta like Don Corleone's wife in the first Godfather movie. She lost herself in raising the children and keeping the house. Vic demanded that she keep her nose out of his business and be happy being the "first lady". Afterall, all the women in the kingdom belong to the king. Even as all of us, who kissed the ring of the "great man"...she also was abused in her own unique way.
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Danny
Very good UH
But when in public he was so eager to abuse others it was a lesson to all that if you did the same you would get the same treatment. So therefore you would have the coffee so so and every thing else. It was a conditioning, a learned thing that grew as time went. And he talked down to her also. Maybe it wasn't at the SNS but it was done.
She loved her Gold flat ware I can asure you. I put them in the wrong place and was told by her what a f--- -- I was. They were abusers. Shi- rolls down hill. If you lived with them you would know.
Great points in the replies. Where would she go what would she do if she left him. How would she suport herself and kids. How would she be treated by her peers. All of you that have divorced know these hard questions. At what exspence do you stay are leave. Being in a marriage for 28 years I understand from my vantage point. The sofa is not made to sleep on but you do what you have to, to make the next day and month and year.
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shazdancer
Financial abuse was definitely in play here. Wierwille had managed to achieve great wealth, but because it was all tied up in the organization, she would have no access to it without his approval.
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Hills Bro
"IMHO Dottie was abused in public by the sheer act of veepee's charade. He used her like a prop. She must have seen the hypocracy and felt used. Afterall, how can you feel like your on a pedistal when old vics out in the motorcoach with his young female "corps kids"? I suppose she kept up a front for him because she was a "dutiful" wife...whatever that is. Don't forget that vic was fired from his preaching job at the church (early on)...for his sexual exploits. This was no new revelation for Dorthea, she knew where she stood early on."
______________________
Great Points UH.
I just remember how the vast majority of Way Corps treated people. Maybe back in the early 70s before the Way Corps program things were not as bad but as years past the "in your face" mentality dominated TWI. I saw people pushed up against walls by leaders. called all sorts of vulgarity and accused falsely not privately but in public. It became an accepted standard of confrontation condoned and instilled by the leaders. Its was VPs Way Corps leadership program. He oversaw it. He was responsible for this evolution of out of control anger that prevailed in TWI. He condoned abusive behavior therefore he was an abuser himself. The very nature and foundation of TWI was confrontation. We're right your wrong.
I am not saying that there were no good corps, there were. But they were far and few and in between. Remember the old TWI logic.."love is not an emotion" and how it was used to justify in your face confrontations. The corps were programed to confront.
Then the kicker is VP went with LCM as Pres. The master of abuse. That choice brought confrontaion and abuse to new heights as we here can attest to. I conclude...VP must have been an abuser based on what was accepted and condoned while he was at the helm. His choices and results point clearly at an abusive man, himself. In public he was one thing but behind closed doors with all the statistics and information available about the characteristics of an abuser VP fits the criteria completely.
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Hills Bro
MZ Imagine "PS If the Way Corps program was such a failure then Howscome I turned out so well!?!"
________________
answer:
You left TWI
:D--> 
or maybe
you are now thinking independently for yourself instead of repeating pre-programed responses
-->
or maybe your just simply GOOD!
:D-->
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excathedra
oh veepee was definitely an abuser in an "in-your-face" way
i told this before but it fits here
i was telling him about a corps friend of mine whose heart was torn to shreds by a maniac "leader"
veepee's response --
"how long do i have to suck your asses" ?
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oldiesman
So then let me get this straight...while Victor Paul was giving it to some young babe, Mrs. Wierwille knew exactly what was going on and on the lookout in the front?
Now there's a tale I never thought i'd hear...
Geeze, for Mrs. Wierwille to say that, you must've really screwed up her gold flatware. I bet you never did that again.
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rascal
Damn right she knew oldies ... dott matrix can atest to this...
I know that Mrs. W said that when she caught on to his shenanigans...when she got upset...he got very nasty and said * if you don`t like it...you can just get the hell out.
She had no place to go....as I understand it her mother was nearly impossible to live with ...which I kind of figure is why she ran off with ole vp in the first place....poor thing looking for love ...and ends up with such a mean ****....
Her words at his funeral said it all...*he was a mean, mean man*
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excathedra
and just because danny said she told him what a f--**** up he was, doesn't mean she used the word f--****. come on.
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excathedra
and danny said "I don't know but going down the road i can see her sitting there in the front with the pig in the back with the door closed and a victom willing or unwilling."
did you get the part about "i dont know but going down the road i can see...."
AND he said victim willing or unwilling
and you said Victor Paul was giving it to some babe
**
you seem young for an oldiesman
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excathedra
...
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oldiesman
Sounds to me like she told him cause he put the gold flatware in the wrong place. He must've really screwed that flatware up. I mean, how bad can you be with gold flatware?
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JustThinking
Rascal,
Dumb question. Were you referring to Mrs. W or her mother? That's quite a statement!
JT
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Hills Bro
VP knocked over a podium back during a SNS in the 70's out of anger. As he knocked that ol podium to the ground he said with a threat.." Billy Bright..someone should take you out behind the barn." He was a maniac..used scripture as a tool for demeaning people. Yet I am convinced if Billy Bright was in the room that night he would have given ol Vic a better fight than that old podium. Hypocrats are real tuff hiding behind their lack of self esteem but when actually having toconfront their victims face to face they wallow away in feeble cowardness.
Vic along with his low self esteem and uncontrolled anger was a drunk that chain smoked. Instead of poking threats and accusations at everyone else he should have looked into the mirror and faced the real enemy of his soul.
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Eagle
This is in my humble opinion. Regardless of the times, men never should have been mean or physically abused their wives. I was brought up by my family and culture (Scotch-Irish from Boston) to treat women like a lady. I am old-fashioned I assume. I believe in opening doors for women, tipping my hat if I am wearing one, and pay for the entertainment when we are on a date. I help my wife clean the house because she works, too. Sometimes, I like to surprise her by having the entire house done before she gets home and needs to sit back and relax. She has done this for me. I also know she likes a good neck and back massage and a chilled glass of wine every now and then after work. So I make sure that is supplied. I think she is a doll and always will. I cannot imagine a man wanting to abuse his wife. Not in any time.
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johniam
I think the 'generational' stuff puts pressure on people, but ultimately we make our own choices. Radar's uncle could have found something other than serial adultery to spend that time and energy on; he chose to do what he did. Same for VP.
I never saw my dad hit my mom. My sisters say he could be abusive. He died when I was 9. He used to spank me but he was not brutal.
As for whether or not a man should ever hit a woman....Clint Eastwood did so in at least 2 of his movies: The Gauntlet, and Sudden Impact. Didn't hurt his career. Paul Newman may have scripted himself out of a best actor oscar in his 1982 movie 'The Verdict' by allowing his character, a lawyer, to punch a woman in the mouth who had been sabotaging him behind his back. Art imitates life.
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waterbuffalo
Well, VERY interesting comments, all.
Getting back to the alcoholic personality, let's see if any of these characteristics fit anyone we used to know to a tee:
1)Irritable most of the time
2)Argumentative
3)Flies off the handle at the most insignificant things
4)Always right
5)Snappy and cutting answers when none are called for
6)Misunderstands other people's motives
7)Forgets lots of things and says they were never told about this or forgets things that they did or said
8)Accuses others often
When in a close relationship with an alcoholic, finding that you defend yourself quite often or that you can never please them is common.
These are just a few of the characteristics I've noticed from my observations and studies (I go to Al Anon and it is GREAT).
WB
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waterbuffalo
On second thought, this could apply to a lot of people. LOL!
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excathedra
LOL wb ! number 7 has me reeeeallly concerned
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