I think this came up in the not too distant past. I never heard the "okay to use a little force" comment before (although it would be in line with his mysogenistic behavior). I think it was more of an "older mind set" subscribed to by both, where the man was the head, what the man said goes, and the woman's place is to support her man, regardless"... they were raised in different times and had different standards... IMO ...as did many of our depression era parents...
I never saw my Dad ever use physical abuse on my Mom. They argued but never cursed or hit. They even laughed together while watching Jackie Gleason verbally abuse his on screen wife and get awards for doing it. Couldn't you see that series running in todays market?
I never saw my Dad use it either (and it never happened). But I did learn (after he passed) that they had far many more arguments than I ever thought. In front of us, and in public, my Mom didn't dispute him or disagree with him. Later on, she's shared all sorts of things with my wife!
I never saw veepee use physical abuse on Mrs. W either. I was just stating that IMO, her 'submissiveness' publicly was a reflection of the times she was raised in. Know what I mean?
quote: I spoke with some ex-way corps a number of years ago and they told me that VP actually told them in private that it was Ok to use a little force to keep your wife in line.
Since this was said "in private", how can one refute, or promulagate this statement??
Ms Imagine.....how wonderful to see you :)-->, your voice of reason has been sorely missed...at least by me. There will never be another Joan Wilder ;)-->
I have been waiting for a thread to talk about this...and this seems like the closest that has come up in quite awhile. They usually turn into some sort of a lambast of Dorothea Wierwille, but I want to talk about the possibility that some of it could be generational.
My uncle Louie was the light and delight of my life. He was the father my father could never bring himself to be...the man figure of my childhood and teen years. The father figure that loved me, took care of me, took me on trips to other countries & continents in real life, and other universes by way of his stories when I was a small child.
He was a medaled officer in WW2, a leader in the world of mentoring, a city councilman and eventually mayor of my hometown. He has buildings and programs named after him in the town and area I live in as well as the Red Cross and Seabees of America.
He married my aunt in 1941 and they remained
married until the day of his death in 1994. My aunt worshiped the ground he walked on, she cooked his meals, ironed his shirts (in true military fashion,) and presided over his "impromptu" dinners. Today, April 30, 2004 she still deeply mourns his death.
My uncle was a serial "hound." He chased and pretty much caught every skirt within eyesight. He didn't have a "type," it didn't matter if they were gorgeous or ugly, he was INTERESTED.
I grew up knowing this about him. His behavior caused a huge family confrontation when I was 8 years old. I was locked in my granma's kitchen (she lived in an inlaw apartment) while my dad confronted my aunt about her husband's behavior. I can vividly remember periodically being shoved out of the way of the kitchen door that night as the adults came in for another bottle of real Kentucky bourbon, my dad yelled, and my aunt cried.
I was always okay with my uncle's predatory behavior until my junior year at Encinal High School (for the benefit of MasterHerbalist, Socks, Jim and Kit) when my uncle "took up" with the hs secretary. I put my foot down on that one....it hit too close to home. I took the bus to his office and laid down the law. I didn't care who he F###u###c###k###ed as long as she didn't work at my high school. He immediately terminated the relationship, and that was that.
My point is this, was this type of behavior generational? Was it simply that the wives and husbands were truly "soul mates" that had understandings between themselves? Was it just "one of those things?"
I don't know. I think about it alot, because each time the subject comes up, I think of my beloved uncle, who meant the world to me.
In my 9 years on staff and 2 in residence I only encountered two couples that had physical abuse (that I know of) involved in their relationship.
One...he was VERY HIGHLY PLACED and to this day runs a north eastern US spin off. Their marital discord was well known...it could be heard from at least 2 or 3 "units" away. Ms Imagine....I think they lived in the unit you lived in a few occupants before you lived there. Of course, that is 'ALLEDGELY LIVED" in that unit a few years before you.
The second couple, I know of no PHYSICAL abuse, HOWEVER, the wife just about had a nervous breakdown when her washer broke down. She was shrieking as she LITERALLY cried that her husband was going to be SOOOOO ANGRY.
Hills topic does bring up an interesting question to my mind.
Can any x-way change if they do not make an effort to rid themselves of their WayBrain?
I think we all have wrong thoughts and wrong habits due to our Way training, I personally am making an effort to confront them and change.
I discuss my thoughts with an nonway and then they point out the strangeness in my logic. I can usually trace it back to something we were taught either verbally or by action.
Hillsguy doesn't mind how I talk to him...he doesn't take me all that seriously ...nobody should.:)-->
I can't remember for sure...the number of the unit that it is. It was a unit that was laid out at a different angle than most of the others in the unit park.
Any other questions....private message/topic or email me okay?
Your Uncle sounds like a great guy (except for that one area)...
I don't know Radar... about "generational cheating"... (if that's what you meant)... my teachers, from Grade school to high school would always comment on how handsome my Dad was... and since his passing she has shared with my wife what a "flirt" he always was... he was a very friendly guy (he was always friendly with guys, too).
But he never cheated on my Mom.
I don't know what veepee's excuse was... he was sociopathic in other behavior, why would he have a conscience about that?
I don't think a 'wandering eye' or 'cheating on your wife' are generational issues. Maybe the way the wife 'stood by her man' was though. And I think that does tie into what I was saying earlier about veepee and Dorothea's relationship (at least the one we saw publicly).
If you're talking about how your Aunt 'put up with' his behavior... that still goes on today... though I'm sure not as much as it did back then because you women are so 'empowered' today... and I do think that's a good thing...
So, if the 'stand by your man' thing was what you were asking might be generational... I think it was.
Not really to answer any of the questions, but for the sake of discussion I'd like to touch on two points.
1) Spousal abuse. I don't really get why anyone would think that it's ok. To me, it seems completely unnatural. I think I'd commit suicide before I ever punched my wife.
On the other hand, tickle fights, as well as a good brawl in Virtua Fighter 4 on the Playstation 2 are perfectly acceptable.
2) Cheating. It's definitely not generational, because I think more people do it now than they did back then. Personally, I don't care if people do it, as long as their spouse is ok with it. As a committed, heterosexual, man, I can see the lure of other women. It's natural to want to be with other women. The thing that stops me from doing it is knowing that it would hurt my wife. Even if she wouldn't know, I won't do it out of principle, plus the fact that I'm bad at keeping secrets from her and would feel extremely guilty.
parking a bus in your driveway and screwing other women on it. does that count as abuse ?
--
in public ROA stage style i saw him be nice to "mother." at other times in regular life around the farm i saw him be a real ****head to her
like she said "he was a mean man"
--
radar, been thinking about your questions and i can't really figure out how cheating is thing of the times
i do agree that women were definitely more "trapped" when there were no shelters, they didn't have jobs, their families would not have accepted divorce, etc.
ps. my uncle (not comparing yours) was the light and life of my life and definitely the father i wanted. he was a "serial hound" also. but then he hounded me when i was eleven....
--
don't you think your uncle was very unkind to your aunt ? her worshipping him in my mind was some kind of denial.
I see your point about it not being generational, but I still don't know how I really feel about all of that.
In their age group, my aunt is in her mid 80s now, it wasn't all that uncommon. I can think of a few other men in their social circle that were similar to my Uncle. Maybe serial adultery transends all generations? Is it something buried deep in humanity and more socially acceptable at different levels and different times?
I guess I do think my uncle was incredibly cruel to her, but on the other hand, he adored her, gave her every luxury life could think of and never once did anyone in my family hear so much as a squeek that he would leave her or that she would throw him out. Maybe it was all just convenience? I don't know, but I don't think I will ever really get an answer to this.
Regarding physical abuse in twi. Like I said, amongst the leadership I knew of two cases. I am sure those cases were just a "sampling" and I thought it was stupid the women stayed but after that incident that happened in my own family when I was 8...I thought that to try and do an "intervention" was not gonna accomplish anything. If I had it to do over, I would have said something in both of those situations.
If someone did something of not his likeing what happened (in private and in public)? They got it with both feet. He never did wht the bible said as far as confortation. So what would you and I do to keep from being the one to get the foot? It was a mind set he laid it out he was the MOG. What he did was ok. Of couse he abused her. And she knew. She liked all the niceides of the servants around her the trips the food the money the cars. She sold her soul just like him. Put up with a little yelling and cheating for the goods.
She knew what went on in the coach in the drive way. I don't know but going down the road i can see her sitting there in the front with the pig in the back with the door closed and a victom willing or unwilling. he was a wolf not a hound.
I lived there to and he said a lot more than just a little hitting will do them some good. Alot of things were talked about in the motorcycle shop late at night after he drank to much. If wanted to be in the click all you had to do is be on his good side.
He was abusive. Why would it not happen to his own wife?
If veepee was an alcoholic, as Ralph supposedly said, that would make her codependent, by default, and it would explain a lot of things.
Just a thought, but I've often wondered if codependent personalities is the reason why a lot of us stayed in twi for years AFTER we recognized things were very screwed up.
I also wonder how much Mrs. Wierwille believed in what VP was trying to do . Did she think it was a scam? Did she think he was the MOGFODAT, but with human frailties? Or somewhere in between?
I think there was a lot more going on in her decision to stay than just a love of high living, although that may have played a part. In her generation, divorce was considered a failure on the part of the woman. Divorced women were looked on as tramps. She would also be leaving a minister of the church, possibly, in her mind, the MOG. She must have worried how she would support herself and her children. I just don't think it was an easy decision.
Although I don't believe that an alcoholic's spouse is automatically a co-dependent, I agree with you, it could explain a lot.
Tha co-dependent finds their own identity and fulfillment in being the rescuer of the alcoholic. Did Mrs. Wierwille feel that her mission was to keep the MOG together enough to get his message out to the world?
Surely she knew the way had millions and she would be well provided for.
I disagree that in the 70s and 80s, divorced women were looked upon as tramps. WOuld she not have been looked upon as the injured party when all came out?
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
6
5
5
7
Popular Days
Apr 30
14
May 1
12
May 3
10
May 2
6
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 6 posts
Radar OReilly 5 posts
Hills Bro 5 posts
waterbuffalo 7 posts
Popular Days
Apr 30 2004
14 posts
May 1 2004
12 posts
May 3 2004
10 posts
May 2 2004
6 posts
Tom Strange
I think this came up in the not too distant past. I never heard the "okay to use a little force" comment before (although it would be in line with his mysogenistic behavior). I think it was more of an "older mind set" subscribed to by both, where the man was the head, what the man said goes, and the woman's place is to support her man, regardless"... they were raised in different times and had different standards... IMO ...as did many of our depression era parents...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Hills Bro
I never saw my Dad ever use physical abuse on my Mom. They argued but never cursed or hit. They even laughed together while watching Jackie Gleason verbally abuse his on screen wife and get awards for doing it. Couldn't you see that series running in todays market?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
I never saw my Dad use it either (and it never happened). But I did learn (after he passed) that they had far many more arguments than I ever thought. In front of us, and in public, my Mom didn't dispute him or disagree with him. Later on, she's shared all sorts of things with my wife!
I never saw veepee use physical abuse on Mrs. W either. I was just stating that IMO, her 'submissiveness' publicly was a reflection of the times she was raised in. Know what I mean?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
"Once condoned", and "continuing to condone", are two separate entities, entirely.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Question --
Answer -- NO
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Since this was said "in private", how can one refute, or promulagate this statement??
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Well,
that makes it hearsay, in and of itself.
If someone sees the post, and replies, saying,
"Yes, I was on-staff, and vpw told me personally that my mrs would be a lot
more co-operative if I backhanded her every once in a while", then that
would be another thing entirely.
This might be considered a request for those who might have such testimony
to step forward.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mzimagine
Mr. Hills
You certainly don't have a superior attitude like those horrible Way Corps, do you?
You don't think that you only have the right answers, do you?
You don't think that the offsprout leaders can't make changes, do you?
Lovingly,
MZ Imagine
PS If the Way Corps program was such a failure then Howscome I turned out so well!?!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Radar OReilly
Ms Imagine.....how wonderful to see you
:)-->, your voice of reason has been sorely missed...at least by me. There will never be another Joan Wilder 
;)-->
I have been waiting for a thread to talk about this...and this seems like the closest that has come up in quite awhile. They usually turn into some sort of a lambast of Dorothea Wierwille, but I want to talk about the possibility that some of it could be generational.
My uncle Louie was the light and delight of my life. He was the father my father could never bring himself to be...the man figure of my childhood and teen years. The father figure that loved me, took care of me, took me on trips to other countries & continents in real life, and other universes by way of his stories when I was a small child.
He was a medaled officer in WW2, a leader in the world of mentoring, a city councilman and eventually mayor of my hometown. He has buildings and programs named after him in the town and area I live in as well as the Red Cross and Seabees of America.
He married my aunt in 1941 and they remained
married until the day of his death in 1994. My aunt worshiped the ground he walked on, she cooked his meals, ironed his shirts (in true military fashion,) and presided over his "impromptu" dinners. Today, April 30, 2004 she still deeply mourns his death.
My uncle was a serial "hound." He chased and pretty much caught every skirt within eyesight. He didn't have a "type," it didn't matter if they were gorgeous or ugly, he was INTERESTED.
I grew up knowing this about him. His behavior caused a huge family confrontation when I was 8 years old. I was locked in my granma's kitchen (she lived in an inlaw apartment) while my dad confronted my aunt about her husband's behavior. I can vividly remember periodically being shoved out of the way of the kitchen door that night as the adults came in for another bottle of real Kentucky bourbon, my dad yelled, and my aunt cried.
I was always okay with my uncle's predatory behavior until my junior year at Encinal High School (for the benefit of MasterHerbalist, Socks, Jim and Kit) when my uncle "took up" with the hs secretary. I put my foot down on that one....it hit too close to home. I took the bus to his office and laid down the law. I didn't care who he F###u###c###k###ed as long as she didn't work at my high school. He immediately terminated the relationship, and that was that.
My point is this, was this type of behavior generational? Was it simply that the wives and husbands were truly "soul mates" that had understandings between themselves? Was it just "one of those things?"
I don't know. I think about it alot, because each time the subject comes up, I think of my beloved uncle, who meant the world to me.
Any takers?
ROR
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Radar OReilly
Regarding Hills question,
In my 9 years on staff and 2 in residence I only encountered two couples that had physical abuse (that I know of) involved in their relationship.
One...he was VERY HIGHLY PLACED and to this day runs a north eastern US spin off. Their marital discord was well known...it could be heard from at least 2 or 3 "units" away. Ms Imagine....I think they lived in the unit you lived in a few occupants before you lived there. Of course, that is 'ALLEDGELY LIVED" in that unit a few years before you.
The second couple, I know of no PHYSICAL abuse, HOWEVER, the wife just about had a nervous breakdown when her washer broke down. She was shrieking as she LITERALLY cried that her husband was going to be SOOOOO ANGRY.
ROR
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mzimagine
No. 3?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mzimagine
Hills topic does bring up an interesting question to my mind.
Can any x-way change if they do not make an effort to rid themselves of their WayBrain?
I think we all have wrong thoughts and wrong habits due to our Way training, I personally am making an effort to confront them and change.
I discuss my thoughts with an nonway and then they point out the strangeness in my logic. I can usually trace it back to something we were taught either verbally or by action.
Hillsguy doesn't mind how I talk to him...he doesn't take me all that seriously ...nobody should.
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Radar OReilly
Joan....
I can't remember for sure...the number of the unit that it is. It was a unit that was laid out at a different angle than most of the others in the unit park.
Any other questions....private message/topic or email me okay?
ROR
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
Your Uncle sounds like a great guy (except for that one area)...
I don't know Radar... about "generational cheating"... (if that's what you meant)... my teachers, from Grade school to high school would always comment on how handsome my Dad was... and since his passing she has shared with my wife what a "flirt" he always was... he was a very friendly guy (he was always friendly with guys, too).
But he never cheated on my Mom.
I don't know what veepee's excuse was... he was sociopathic in other behavior, why would he have a conscience about that?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Radar OReilly
I dunno Tommy. I was hoping someone here could help me put it all into perspective.
ROR
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
I don't think a 'wandering eye' or 'cheating on your wife' are generational issues. Maybe the way the wife 'stood by her man' was though. And I think that does tie into what I was saying earlier about veepee and Dorothea's relationship (at least the one we saw publicly).
If you're talking about how your Aunt 'put up with' his behavior... that still goes on today... though I'm sure not as much as it did back then because you women are so 'empowered' today... and I do think that's a good thing...
So, if the 'stand by your man' thing was what you were asking might be generational... I think it was.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mister P-Mosh
Not really to answer any of the questions, but for the sake of discussion I'd like to touch on two points.
1) Spousal abuse. I don't really get why anyone would think that it's ok. To me, it seems completely unnatural. I think I'd commit suicide before I ever punched my wife.
On the other hand, tickle fights, as well as a good brawl in Virtua Fighter 4 on the Playstation 2 are perfectly acceptable.
2) Cheating. It's definitely not generational, because I think more people do it now than they did back then. Personally, I don't care if people do it, as long as their spouse is ok with it. As a committed, heterosexual, man, I can see the lure of other women. It's natural to want to be with other women. The thing that stops me from doing it is knowing that it would hurt my wife. Even if she wouldn't know, I won't do it out of principle, plus the fact that I'm bad at keeping secrets from her and would feel extremely guilty.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
parking a bus in your driveway and screwing other women on it. does that count as abuse ?
--
in public ROA stage style i saw him be nice to "mother." at other times in regular life around the farm i saw him be a real ****head to her
like she said "he was a mean man"
--
radar, been thinking about your questions and i can't really figure out how cheating is thing of the times
i do agree that women were definitely more "trapped" when there were no shelters, they didn't have jobs, their families would not have accepted divorce, etc.
ps. my uncle (not comparing yours) was the light and life of my life and definitely the father i wanted. he was a "serial hound" also. but then he hounded me when i was eleven....
--
don't you think your uncle was very unkind to your aunt ? her worshipping him in my mind was some kind of denial.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Radar OReilly
Exxie,
I see your point about it not being generational, but I still don't know how I really feel about all of that.
In their age group, my aunt is in her mid 80s now, it wasn't all that uncommon. I can think of a few other men in their social circle that were similar to my Uncle. Maybe serial adultery transends all generations? Is it something buried deep in humanity and more socially acceptable at different levels and different times?
I guess I do think my uncle was incredibly cruel to her, but on the other hand, he adored her, gave her every luxury life could think of and never once did anyone in my family hear so much as a squeek that he would leave her or that she would throw him out. Maybe it was all just convenience? I don't know, but I don't think I will ever really get an answer to this.
Regarding physical abuse in twi. Like I said, amongst the leadership I knew of two cases. I am sure those cases were just a "sampling" and I thought it was stupid the women stayed but after that incident that happened in my own family when I was 8...I thought that to try and do an "intervention" was not gonna accomplish anything. If I had it to do over, I would have said something in both of those situations.
Radar
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
Did he abuse her? Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
If someone did something of not his likeing what happened (in private and in public)? They got it with both feet. He never did wht the bible said as far as confortation. So what would you and I do to keep from being the one to get the foot? It was a mind set he laid it out he was the MOG. What he did was ok. Of couse he abused her. And she knew. She liked all the niceides of the servants around her the trips the food the money the cars. She sold her soul just like him. Put up with a little yelling and cheating for the goods.
She knew what went on in the coach in the drive way. I don't know but going down the road i can see her sitting there in the front with the pig in the back with the door closed and a victom willing or unwilling. he was a wolf not a hound.
I lived there to and he said a lot more than just a little hitting will do them some good. Alot of things were talked about in the motorcycle shop late at night after he drank to much. If wanted to be in the click all you had to do is be on his good side.
He was abusive. Why would it not happen to his own wife?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waterbuffalo
If veepee was an alcoholic, as Ralph supposedly said, that would make her codependent, by default, and it would explain a lot of things.
Just a thought, but I've often wondered if codependent personalities is the reason why a lot of us stayed in twi for years AFTER we recognized things were very screwed up.
WB
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Dear Danny,
I also wonder how much Mrs. Wierwille believed in what VP was trying to do . Did she think it was a scam? Did she think he was the MOGFODAT, but with human frailties? Or somewhere in between?
I think there was a lot more going on in her decision to stay than just a love of high living, although that may have played a part. In her generation, divorce was considered a failure on the part of the woman. Divorced women were looked on as tramps. She would also be leaving a minister of the church, possibly, in her mind, the MOG. She must have worried how she would support herself and her children. I just don't think it was an easy decision.
Regards,
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Dear waterbuffalo,
Although I don't believe that an alcoholic's spouse is automatically a co-dependent, I agree with you, it could explain a lot.
Tha co-dependent finds their own identity and fulfillment in being the rescuer of the alcoholic. Did Mrs. Wierwille feel that her mission was to keep the MOG together enough to get his message out to the world?
Very sad.
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waterbuffalo
Shaz,
Surely she knew the way had millions and she would be well provided for.
I disagree that in the 70s and 80s, divorced women were looked upon as tramps. WOuld she not have been looked upon as the injured party when all came out?
WB
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.