the fear that I worked hard to overcome and have now successfully was fear of making friends with native americans or any aboriginal indiginous people with different Gods, or homosexuals, or catholics of all people......not following their philosophies...just making friends.
Let start with one of the fears they perpetuated from the begining.
..... #1 The fear as a parent that you were not doing the word which causes the hedge of protection around your children to be removed.
...... #2 that when your child is old enough to believe on there own TWI will own your teenagers because our teens had already been taught through the years to obey TWI through some of our personal actions.
....... #3 That you or a member of your family could be accused of being possessed by one of them debbil spurts, thus you don't want to ask an honest question about practical or doctrinal use of the word by TWI.
....... #4 fear of seeing yourself or fellow believers in the hot seat in the latter 90s. That was truly scary .... I have been on both ends of this one. Scared for your brethren and scared for yourself.
..... #5 lets not forget that natural ability of plain old human error. Scared of the end result or reproof that was coming, this was opposite of loving the reproof of course.
..... #6 Scared when your phone rings and your LCs number pops up on your caller I.D.
.... #7 Scared to tell your LC that you know the truth behind some covered up bologny and you can't put up with it anymore.
.......#8 Scared to open your mouth and speak
.... #9 Scared to leave TWI and become a Grease Spot ........ but you know its the right thing to do..
and then .....
you think about the hedge of protection you thinking you are leaving behind and you are responsible for your spouse and children in the decision your making.
Thinking about those believers who will be hurt when you walk ...... think about those believers you won't be able to protect anymore once you are gone.. thinking of those whom you will miss
I know my fear was bad but reading it from a family man's or women's point of view is much more intense. So much more to concider and work through. My hat is off to you for your courage to leave. Utmost respect, brother.
Imbus said: "TWI and the WC helped establish the FEAR I already had in my life."
This reminds me of VPWs teaching in PFAL regarding the alcoholic/drunk who came to church finally and VPW changed his sermon specifically to the wiles of alchohol.
Of course we all know what happenend; the drunk told him he didn't help and VPW decided he would further teach HOW TO HELP from that point on.
This premise of HOW TO HELP was to have been the same premise in craigers years.
But instead they taught FEAR and LOATHING in every state of the UNION and BEYOND. What a truly ANGRY bunch in my opinion.
Year2027 .... This is a great Topic thanks for posting it. I know you said your thanks, hope you don't mind if I carry on this thread a bit, I think its more appropriate here than in the GSers are possessed thread thats going on right now.
There are so many fears that I and my family felt. There are so many fears that the people in our twig/latter HFC felt.
I have another more personal fear that was brought up just yesterday. I am going to leave some of the details out but I believe the category of Possession needs to be looked at under the category of Fear.
Here goes .... I am of fragile mind on this one just to let everyone know. I think the reason I can write today is becuase of another GSer who listened.
Someone in my life committed suicide. I feel that this was selfish and it left alot of people to live with the pain. Regardless of the selfishness and pain ...... I loved him dearly.
We were taught in the Advance Class (no matter which one you took) that for someone to commit suicide they had to be spirit possessed.
Now when you think about someone you personal knew and grew with doing this or being possessed its scary. I have lived with the fear that this person whom I loved was possessed by a disgusting perverted demon.
I want to believe he wasn't possessed. I fear because I want to know hes gonna make it to God when ressurected (sp?).
I wish I would have never had the advance class just because of this one instance. Or any of the classes and events that followed for adv grads.
A hard subject for me--VERY HARD__ the truth of the matter is that in my "in" days I lived in a cocoon of fear. It was ever present, "how can I keep myself and the kids form getting Hurt" What happens if I can't pay the bills" fear of doing the worg thing saying the wrong thing dressing the wrong way. Fear of upsetting leadership.
It Hs taken me years to get where I am now and there are still little clouds of fear poised to strike on very bad days when I am tired or rundown.
I know how you feel. The girl that got me into TWI commited suiside. She was very dear to me. She was a corps grad and a loving person. Her husband was ordained clergy. So I have asked the questions you have too.
Well, for me I don't buy the possession doctrine. She was very depressed after having a baby and at that time the mental health profession was not fully aware of post-partem depression. So she killed herself.
There's a lot of reasons why people end their lives. Foe some it is family genetics at work. Some it is depression or a hoplessness that has no end. It is a relief for them to put an end to what they have no contol over. It is a mental disorder not a spiritual disorder.
I know of one child who saw the death of both parents and has been out of his mind with anger. He is so wounded that I think for him to recover from the violence that he has received and witness in his life, is near impossible. He has no conscience and is severly antisocial.
One of my co-worker said the best thing for this kid is to not continue to live. He has attemped suiside many times. Now that is sad but I tend to agree. He is so unhappy and out of his mind that a life time of therapy would not get his soul to heal.
There are some unfortunat folks that suffer so internally that no form of meds or therapy can releive them. Possession. No, Hell No. Stock it up to having imperfect bodies and minds. And sometimes trama to the head will cause a psycological shift.
What I do believe about possession is in the case of Jeffery Dohmer or Ted Bundie. Where the evil was acted on another human being. Serial killers to be exact.
BiBlically I don't buy the suiside possession thing. I don't care how you interpret the Bible.
IMBUS ... thank you so much for your post. I felt I was the only one in the world who had been thru this.
I really have thought about this many times and have discussed it with my husband and we have differed on some of our beliefs on this. Of course the conversation always goes back to those darn TWI classes.
I can't wait to show my husband this post. He is not here and I know I probably should have waited to post until he saw it.
BUT SOME EXCITEMENT HERE IN MY LIFE IN A POSITIVE WAY just from reading what you said :D--> :D--> :D-->
It truly has been the most horrible fear, that I never would have had if it weren't for TWI.
Thank you .
Digi ....
P.S. I'll let you know what hubby thinks after he reads your post.
Along those lines... (suicide)... it has occurred to me that it was just another part of TWI trying to remain 'blameless' for destroying a person's life... if someone left, "they're possessed"... if someone committed suicide "they're possessed"...
it fits... sadly... they could never say "we so trashed their life, their very existence mentally, physically and spiritually that they no longer were of use to us"... or "no longer wanted to live"...
that wouldn't have been a very good "witness" for them... so I think it (folks being so lost they ended it all) happened early in the ministry more than we know of, IMO, and it was just part of the "POSSESSED" cover...
I work with hundreds of kids. Every day there are 4 or 5 that you wonder about. Giving them an "hello" " good to see you" a hug, a compliment can light up their faces like you've never seen. I know I did learn that in the mean time, if God gives you revelation, it will be because you love that person and can help them or you need to be aware to protect yourself. I don't know fi it is revelation, but I know some lives have changed and are improving because of my care as well as many others in my workplace. Even if they are possessed. I think God's love and the actions of those who do His will can overcome.
I agree. Love is the greatest power in the universe. I too ask God when I start my shift," What can I do that will make a difference?" I get to be with these kids for 2 hrs. in the morning, so how the morning is makes or breaks their day. I take them hiking, biking, game morning or take them to the ranch to play with the goats.
Their are some kids that are so wounded that their defensive distrust cannot be penatrated. And no matter what you do or how much time you spend they cannot connect.
When these kid are well established in their street mentality and life style of violence, they look a kindness as a weakness and take full advantage.
The child I mentioned had sent several staff to the hospital for trying to keep him safe.
He is the only child I felt would have a bleak out come. That he would be killed in the process of killing. Now that my friend is sad.
We were taught that fear was "believing in reverse" and thus we came to fear our fears.
Yet, why would a loving God put us in such bondage?
How many mothers are like little Johnny's mother in session 1 of PFAL? What mother has not feared harm coming to her child? Most children wouldn't make it to adulthood if the fears of their mothers caused them harm.
"It was the FEAR in the heart, in the life of that MOTHER!" gag me please.
Hi, outandabout, I know first hand about the woman and her son, you see I once had a beautiful healthy and extremely smart 9 year old son and he had to take a bus to school and was let of on a very busy intersction and YES I worried about it. Then one day he was hit by a truck while crossing that street and killed that was in 1980 and ever since I have suffered so much because I thought my worries caused his death. Here it is 2004 and that still comes to my mind that it was my fault, I have prayed and prayed to God to forgive me for my fear, but it doesn't work and I still have that horrible guilt that, that horrible man VP put in my mind via pfal. From time to time Ihave had to take psyc. meds. because that fear is so great in me that I have had several nervous breakdowns and even went into a catatonic state and lost 3 months of my life. My Doc said that my brain shut down to protect my mind, but I think it was VP that started it all as I was a very healhy minded person before that happened, what a damn fool I was to beleive anything he said.
I can't begin to understand what that must be like to lose your child. But I hope you can come to understand that it was NEVER your fear that made that happen!
The universe would be in total chaos if our fears made things happen.
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imbus
THANKS ROY,
Good topic.
FEAR that your not doing the word.
FEAR of leadership.
FEAR of failure.
FEAR of commitment to anything.
TWI and the WC helped establish the FEAR I already had in my life.
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washingtonweather
the fear that I worked hard to overcome and have now successfully was fear of making friends with native americans or any aboriginal indiginous people with different Gods, or homosexuals, or catholics of all people......not following their philosophies...just making friends.
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vickles
Fear of our rewards when we get to heaven. Thats where the works came in so that we would not just be cleaning toilets for eternity.
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dmiller
Hiya Roy!!
:)--> 
:)-->
You make some good "fear factors" there, but they never got to me (tho I am sure they did to others).
When they told me my corps sponsorship for others, could NOT be counted as ABS, I told them they had the B*S* part right!
:D-->
After THAT line was fed to me, I beleived less and less of what they said, and questioned more and more of what they HAD said.
To make a long story short -- they were found wanting. Very wanting,and with no answers suitable.
So those "fear" things to me, never ever struck home, cause I knew they weren't true.
:)-->
Maybe I'm one of the lucky ones. Am wishing there were more, who see it the same way.
:(-->
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Digitalis
Let start with one of the fears they perpetuated from the begining.
..... #1 The fear as a parent that you were not doing the word which causes the hedge of protection around your children to be removed.
...... #2 that when your child is old enough to believe on there own TWI will own your teenagers because our teens had already been taught through the years to obey TWI through some of our personal actions.
....... #3 That you or a member of your family could be accused of being possessed by one of them debbil spurts, thus you don't want to ask an honest question about practical or doctrinal use of the word by TWI.
....... #4 fear of seeing yourself or fellow believers in the hot seat in the latter 90s. That was truly scary .... I have been on both ends of this one. Scared for your brethren and scared for yourself.
..... #5 lets not forget that natural ability of plain old human error. Scared of the end result or reproof that was coming, this was opposite of loving the reproof of course.
..... #6 Scared when your phone rings and your LCs number pops up on your caller I.D.
.... #7 Scared to tell your LC that you know the truth behind some covered up bologny and you can't put up with it anymore.
.......#8 Scared to open your mouth and speak
.... #9 Scared to leave TWI and become a Grease Spot ........ but you know its the right thing to do..
and then .....
you think about the hedge of protection you thinking you are leaving behind and you are responsible for your spouse and children in the decision your making.
Thinking about those believers who will be hurt when you walk ...... think about those believers you won't be able to protect anymore once you are gone.. thinking of those whom you will miss
Digi
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WordWolf
Man,
those of you "in" during th 90's really got
"bent over a chair".....
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imbus
Dig,
I know my fear was bad but reading it from a family man's or women's point of view is much more intense. So much more to concider and work through. My hat is off to you for your courage to leave. Utmost respect, brother.
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Radar OReilly
Digi, you NAILED IT!
ROR
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washingtonweather
yeah---fear that turned into SPIRITUAL BLACKMAIL
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Digitalis
Imbus said: "TWI and the WC helped establish the FEAR I already had in my life."
This reminds me of VPWs teaching in PFAL regarding the alcoholic/drunk who came to church finally and VPW changed his sermon specifically to the wiles of alchohol.
Of course we all know what happenend; the drunk told him he didn't help and VPW decided he would further teach HOW TO HELP from that point on.
This premise of HOW TO HELP was to have been the same premise in craigers years.
But instead they taught FEAR and LOATHING in every state of the UNION and BEYOND. What a truly ANGRY bunch in my opinion.
Imbus, I truly understand
your sister in christ
Digi
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imbus
Dig,
Sorry about my reference to you as a man. My hats off to you sister.
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year2027
God
Hi All
Thanks for the imput
with love Roy
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Digitalis
Year2027 .... This is a great Topic thanks for posting it. I know you said your thanks, hope you don't mind if I carry on this thread a bit, I think its more appropriate here than in the GSers are possessed thread thats going on right now.
There are so many fears that I and my family felt. There are so many fears that the people in our twig/latter HFC felt.
I have another more personal fear that was brought up just yesterday. I am going to leave some of the details out but I believe the category of Possession needs to be looked at under the category of Fear.
Here goes .... I am of fragile mind on this one just to let everyone know. I think the reason I can write today is becuase of another GSer who listened.
Someone in my life committed suicide. I feel that this was selfish and it left alot of people to live with the pain. Regardless of the selfishness and pain ...... I loved him dearly.
We were taught in the Advance Class (no matter which one you took) that for someone to commit suicide they had to be spirit possessed.
Now when you think about someone you personal knew and grew with doing this or being possessed its scary. I have lived with the fear that this person whom I loved was possessed by a disgusting perverted demon.
I want to believe he wasn't possessed. I fear because I want to know hes gonna make it to God when ressurected (sp?).
I wish I would have never had the advance class just because of this one instance. Or any of the classes and events that followed for adv grads.
Digi
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templelady
A hard subject for me--VERY HARD__ the truth of the matter is that in my "in" days I lived in a cocoon of fear. It was ever present, "how can I keep myself and the kids form getting Hurt" What happens if I can't pay the bills" fear of doing the worg thing saying the wrong thing dressing the wrong way. Fear of upsetting leadership.
It Hs taken me years to get where I am now and there are still little clouds of fear poised to strike on very bad days when I am tired or rundown.
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year2027
God
Hi Digitalis
I too want to see this one grow because he have a lot to talk about fears so we can over come them in our lives
When I said thanks I was moving it to the top
while I said thanks to all
with love Roy
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imbus
dig,
I know how you feel. The girl that got me into TWI commited suiside. She was very dear to me. She was a corps grad and a loving person. Her husband was ordained clergy. So I have asked the questions you have too.
Well, for me I don't buy the possession doctrine. She was very depressed after having a baby and at that time the mental health profession was not fully aware of post-partem depression. So she killed herself.
There's a lot of reasons why people end their lives. Foe some it is family genetics at work. Some it is depression or a hoplessness that has no end. It is a relief for them to put an end to what they have no contol over. It is a mental disorder not a spiritual disorder.
I know of one child who saw the death of both parents and has been out of his mind with anger. He is so wounded that I think for him to recover from the violence that he has received and witness in his life, is near impossible. He has no conscience and is severly antisocial.
One of my co-worker said the best thing for this kid is to not continue to live. He has attemped suiside many times. Now that is sad but I tend to agree. He is so unhappy and out of his mind that a life time of therapy would not get his soul to heal.
There are some unfortunat folks that suffer so internally that no form of meds or therapy can releive them. Possession. No, Hell No. Stock it up to having imperfect bodies and minds. And sometimes trama to the head will cause a psycological shift.
What I do believe about possession is in the case of Jeffery Dohmer or Ted Bundie. Where the evil was acted on another human being. Serial killers to be exact.
BiBlically I don't buy the suiside possession thing. I don't care how you interpret the Bible.
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Digitalis
IMBUS ... thank you so much for your post. I felt I was the only one in the world who had been thru this.
I really have thought about this many times and have discussed it with my husband and we have differed on some of our beliefs on this. Of course the conversation always goes back to those darn TWI classes.
I can't wait to show my husband this post. He is not here and I know I probably should have waited to post until he saw it.
BUT SOME EXCITEMENT HERE IN MY LIFE IN A POSITIVE WAY just from reading what you said
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
It truly has been the most horrible fear, that I never would have had if it weren't for TWI.
Thank you .
Digi ....
P.S. I'll let you know what hubby thinks after he reads your post.
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Tom Strange
Along those lines... (suicide)... it has occurred to me that it was just another part of TWI trying to remain 'blameless' for destroying a person's life... if someone left, "they're possessed"... if someone committed suicide "they're possessed"...
it fits... sadly... they could never say "we so trashed their life, their very existence mentally, physically and spiritually that they no longer were of use to us"... or "no longer wanted to live"...
that wouldn't have been a very good "witness" for them... so I think it (folks being so lost they ended it all) happened early in the ministry more than we know of, IMO, and it was just part of the "POSSESSED" cover...
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Schuks
Imbus:
There are so many factors to consider.
I guess we will know some day.
I work with hundreds of kids. Every day there are 4 or 5 that you wonder about. Giving them an "hello" " good to see you" a hug, a compliment can light up their faces like you've never seen. I know I did learn that in the mean time, if God gives you revelation, it will be because you love that person and can help them or you need to be aware to protect yourself. I don't know fi it is revelation, but I know some lives have changed and are improving because of my care as well as many others in my workplace. Even if they are possessed. I think God's love and the actions of those who do His will can overcome.
Right eh?
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imbus
Shucks,
I agree. Love is the greatest power in the universe. I too ask God when I start my shift," What can I do that will make a difference?" I get to be with these kids for 2 hrs. in the morning, so how the morning is makes or breaks their day. I take them hiking, biking, game morning or take them to the ranch to play with the goats.
Their are some kids that are so wounded that their defensive distrust cannot be penatrated. And no matter what you do or how much time you spend they cannot connect.
When these kid are well established in their street mentality and life style of violence, they look a kindness as a weakness and take full advantage.
The child I mentioned had sent several staff to the hospital for trying to keep him safe.
He is the only child I felt would have a bleak out come. That he would be killed in the process of killing. Now that my friend is sad.
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outandabout
We were taught that fear was "believing in reverse" and thus we came to fear our fears.
Yet, why would a loving God put us in such bondage?
How many mothers are like little Johnny's mother in session 1 of PFAL? What mother has not feared harm coming to her child? Most children wouldn't make it to adulthood if the fears of their mothers caused them harm.
"It was the FEAR in the heart, in the life of that MOTHER!" gag me please.
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wyteduv58
Hi, outandabout, I know first hand about the woman and her son, you see I once had a beautiful healthy and extremely smart 9 year old son and he had to take a bus to school and was let of on a very busy intersction and YES I worried about it. Then one day he was hit by a truck while crossing that street and killed that was in 1980 and ever since I have suffered so much because I thought my worries caused his death. Here it is 2004 and that still comes to my mind that it was my fault, I have prayed and prayed to God to forgive me for my fear, but it doesn't work and I still have that horrible guilt that, that horrible man VP put in my mind via pfal. From time to time Ihave had to take psyc. meds. because that fear is so great in me that I have had several nervous breakdowns and even went into a catatonic state and lost 3 months of my life. My Doc said that my brain shut down to protect my mind, but I think it was VP that started it all as I was a very healhy minded person before that happened, what a damn fool I was to beleive anything he said.
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outandabout
I can't begin to understand what that must be like to lose your child. But I hope you can come to understand that it was NEVER your fear that made that happen!
The universe would be in total chaos if our fears made things happen.
I'm so so sorry about your child.
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dmiller
Wyteduv -- That is sad.
:(-->
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