In '83 or so I worked for awhile at a Target store. One Saturday I was working with an intermediate supervisor I got along with OK. He was sick this day. Whenever I was with him 5 minutes wouldn't go by and he would complain about how bad he felt and how much work he had to do that day and what a bummer it was. His stomach was hurt.
About an hour and a half into my shift, after hearing repeated confessions of suffering from him, I asked him 3 questions: do you believe in God? do you believe in healing? and would you like me to pray for you right now? He said yes to all three (slight pause before the third one since we were on the floor where customers were).
So I prayed for him. It took less than 10 seconds which surprised him. He must've expected an excorcism. We then separated from each other and 5 minutes later he came up to me excited and said his stomach didn't hurt anymore. He said his mom was catholic and she believed in stuff like that and what did I believe in?
I didn't say anything bad to him about the catholic church, I just said the bible said it was possible so I believed it. He never came to a fellowship or anything, but he was genuinely excited at least for that time.
We don't know how much impact we had on people after we witnessed to them. Maybe a lot. But TWI became so focussed on getting classes together that they had no use for stories like the one above. If there is a common reason why so many of us stayed so long it's because we all got it in our heads that believing positively according to the true word was a good thing to do. I still believe it, but shame on TWI for "urinating in our slim fast" (so to speak)!
I was working on a roof project one time, and one of the men on my crew came up to me and said "I really feel lousy! I think I need to go home."
I turned to him and said "Do you want to be able to make your car payment?", "Do you want to have a job tomorrow?", "Do you think I'll be overjoyed having to do your work as well as mine?"
He answered "no" to all of these questions and then I told him to cut the bull$hit and get his lazy a$$ back to work.
A few minutes later I asked him how he felt. "Just fine" he replied...
Dovey our bird brother Mr. Wrenn last I knew was alive and well in Ohio. I saw him a few years ago he was in Kansas City teaching on Romans for a weekend. As far as I know he is still involved with Chris Geer.....( end of bird update)
Hello. Long time, no post(various computer problems...)
In my area, around the mid-'90s (TWI II), there allegedly was a person the missus & I knew well who allegedly was HIV+ (no leaders#!t would come out & say so, word got out through the grapevine). Of course we were "consuled" (ORDERED!) by leaders#!t not to question them because they were under such stress.
Fast forward 3 months later...the limb Nazi reports that a twigger in the limb was delivered from a "major health issue". I secretly approached the person & asked them what was what...they had no idea what the hell I was talking about...they went for a job physical & had a small ulcer & the doc gave 'em some pills...cleared it up, end of story.
Oh contraire, I did indeed. But I'm not sure it took "guts". Mostly I think it was just a lack of common courtesy. That and a mindset that I had special knowledge that they were not privy to.
Yes, I needed to save those poor (er, well they were rich, but poor "spiritually", you know) pathetic bastards from their sinful lives. Yeah, they weren't going to get any rewards the way they were heading, that's for SURE! God needed me to insinuate my superstitions on them. That's what they needed!
So, YES! I did "witness" to my bosses (one in WA. and one in Alabama) and all it took was to be basically full of myself and rude enough to think that what I believed was more important than what they did.
Just like the goddam J.W.'s that come up on my porch every now and then. No guts required, just a profound lack of civility...
In 1976 at the last ROA in Shelby co. fairgrounds I think.
Any way my daughter and I were walking to our tent when we saw a small crowd of people surrouding a man in a wheelchair so we went to see what was going on and there was a well known Rev. Gerald W. talking to the man about healing and the man who's arms, hands, and leg were all shrivelled up, his hans were all twisted and his fingers looked like claws.
.....cut for brevity
It must be a trick or something but I touched his hands and arms and they were real.
Hey, you know, skilled magicians can really convince people of doing things that are not real but appear to be. I would have to have known the person in question for a long long time before I were to be convinced of a miracle.
I only witnessed one so-called miracle. It was the well publicized story of a man who had one of his eyes put out as a child, then through a temendous miracle, sight came bursting from that eye socket, which only had a glass eye. He would show his "miracle" by covering his good eye with a patch, and then with the glass eye removed and an empty socket showing, could evidently read anything that was given to him. Over the years, I thought about that "miracle", and since he did have a good eye, the whole testimony is not free from scrutiny. It's quite possible he used a magician's prop for a patch, which appeared to be sight blocking, but was actually a see-through patch.
Also, VPW, at the '78 ROA, supposedly delivered a baby from polio, or some crippling disorder, and only had the braces to show for it. No acutal miracle was witnessed. Hey, he could have actually bought the brace at a medical suppply store.
I too am very skeptical of any "miracle" that is performed now days.
Well for my two cents, I suspect that there were a few remarkable healings. the power of positive thinking is real (IMHO), and that was not a teaching confined to TWI.
One scenario that did .... me off was when a 16 year old girl in my twig was ministered to for diabetes. She had been doctor diagnosed, and took her daily insulin shots for years. When she was ministered to she was told NOT to return to the doctor for verification as that would be "negative believing". Her mother had a fit over this when the girl refused to go to her regular testing the next month.
When Mom called me, I told her that there was no reason her daughter should not go for her checkup. If indeed she was healed, the tests would reveal it. If she wasn't, then her daughter should return to her daily insulin regimen and enjoy a long life. I caught grief from the person who did the ministering for contradicting their "inspired utterance" I responded tuf schlitz, , there was no way I was gonna take the sentence for recklessly endangering a minor. If God healed, there was nothing the doctor could do to take that away. Her mom appreciated me standing up for her right to have her daughter tested.
I was told that indeed the tests indicated that the girl did not need to take insulin anymore. I admit, since I was not privy to the daily observation of the girl, I do not know whether she was truly healed, this is a third person story once again. HOWEVER....
I remember the last night of a PFAL class I ran in 1974? in IL. The night before, coming home late and tired, I had missed the last two steps on my basement stairs in the dark, and "broke" my ankle. At least to me it seemed broken, I could put no weight on it, it was swollen, and felt like a bone was out of place. Stupid, (and broke) me, I did not got to a doctor to xray it. I knew that our limb leader (GW), was coming up for the last night of the class, and didn't want to miss showing off my class to him.
Anyway, come session 12, I found ways to sit on a table when I needed to be in front of the class. I made my way to the front when the lights were dim. (I didn't want my one-legged walk to be a hindrance to the students' believing, you know). I completed the class. In those days, the mere presence of a limb leader didn't yet mean that you deferred all "spiritual duties" to them when they were in town, and I wasn't even corps.
However, in the parking lot I asked the limb leader to minister to me. He did so, ministering to me for a broken ankle, and then said, "kick that tire". I felt no change, and gingerly tried to put weight on that foot. Pain was immediate.
GW then yelled at me in that fearsome booming voice "I said, KICK THE TIRE". Somewhat out of fear, (as GW was known to be able to induce) I reared back and kicked the tire. I felt no pain and we went to dinner and the ankle never troubled me again. Not doctor verified, but to me it was very real. The only people there were me and the limb coordinator and I think one other person, maybe D. Pettit? Oh well, to me it was real. Was it healing or was it positive thinking? Who cares?
George, your questions to the worker were of God. Notice the IMMEDIATE MIRACLE of HEALING when the truth was held forth, even as a question?? Amazing ...
TWI taught us that if you're in fellowship and you just go about your business then you'll be in the right place at the right time and good things will happen. I have one concrete example of this.
I was living with 2 other guys. It was Sunday. Normally, I didn't read the funnies, but this day for some "reason" I picked up the funnies and read through them.
There was a section in the funnies called 'Our own oddities' in which STL residents could send in weird stories and the paper would write it out and have a cartoon illustrating it. One of the stories was a woman who found a contact lens in her eye that had been there for 4 years.
So I read the funnies and that was that...or was it? Fifteen minutes after I finished reading one of my roommates came home and said he couldn't find one of his contact lenses.
Immediately I knew that God inspired me to read the funnies that day knowing I'd read the bit about the contact lens. So I confidently told the roommate his lens was in his eye. Fits like a hand in a glove. Perfectly logical to me.
He looked and said it wasn't there, but a half hour later he said he looked again and it was there. Is that a miracle or is it just a sign or wonder.
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Tom Strange
good for you JT!
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johniam
In '83 or so I worked for awhile at a Target store. One Saturday I was working with an intermediate supervisor I got along with OK. He was sick this day. Whenever I was with him 5 minutes wouldn't go by and he would complain about how bad he felt and how much work he had to do that day and what a bummer it was. His stomach was hurt.
About an hour and a half into my shift, after hearing repeated confessions of suffering from him, I asked him 3 questions: do you believe in God? do you believe in healing? and would you like me to pray for you right now? He said yes to all three (slight pause before the third one since we were on the floor where customers were).
So I prayed for him. It took less than 10 seconds which surprised him. He must've expected an excorcism. We then separated from each other and 5 minutes later he came up to me excited and said his stomach didn't hurt anymore. He said his mom was catholic and she believed in stuff like that and what did I believe in?
I didn't say anything bad to him about the catholic church, I just said the bible said it was possible so I believed it. He never came to a fellowship or anything, but he was genuinely excited at least for that time.
We don't know how much impact we had on people after we witnessed to them. Maybe a lot. But TWI became so focussed on getting classes together that they had no use for stories like the one above. If there is a common reason why so many of us stayed so long it's because we all got it in our heads that believing positively according to the true word was a good thing to do. I still believe it, but shame on TWI for "urinating in our slim fast" (so to speak)!
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George Aar
I was working on a roof project one time, and one of the men on my crew came up to me and said "I really feel lousy! I think I need to go home."
I turned to him and said "Do you want to be able to make your car payment?", "Do you want to have a job tomorrow?", "Do you think I'll be overjoyed having to do your work as well as mine?"
He answered "no" to all of these questions and then I told him to cut the bull$hit and get his lazy a$$ back to work.
A few minutes later I asked him how he felt. "Just fine" he replied...
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vickles
Well geo, if my boss talked to me like that and I wanted to keep my job I would have said I was feeling fine too.
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excathedra
now now now.... geo.
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WhiteDove
Bird Update
Dovey our bird brother Mr. Wrenn last I knew was alive and well in Ohio. I saw him a few years ago he was in Kansas City teaching on Romans for a weekend. As far as I know he is still involved with Chris Geer.....( end of bird update)
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Weout1200
Hello. Long time, no post(various computer problems...)
In my area, around the mid-'90s (TWI II), there allegedly was a person the missus & I knew well who allegedly was HIV+ (no leaders#!t would come out & say so, word got out through the grapevine). Of course we were "consuled" (ORDERED!) by leaders#!t not to question them because they were under such stress.
Fast forward 3 months later...the limb Nazi reports that a twigger in the limb was delivered from a "major health issue". I secretly approached the person & asked them what was what...they had no idea what the hell I was talking about...they went for a job physical & had a small ulcer & the doc gave 'em some pills...cleared it up, end of story.
Go figure.
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johniam
Geo: You never had the guts to witness to your bosses, did you?
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George Aar
Johnur,
Oh contraire, I did indeed. But I'm not sure it took "guts". Mostly I think it was just a lack of common courtesy. That and a mindset that I had special knowledge that they were not privy to.
Yes, I needed to save those poor (er, well they were rich, but poor "spiritually", you know) pathetic bastards from their sinful lives. Yeah, they weren't going to get any rewards the way they were heading, that's for SURE! God needed me to insinuate my superstitions on them. That's what they needed!
So, YES! I did "witness" to my bosses (one in WA. and one in Alabama) and all it took was to be basically full of myself and rude enough to think that what I believed was more important than what they did.
Just like the goddam J.W.'s that come up on my porch every now and then. No guts required, just a profound lack of civility...
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dmiller
sorry for the choo-choo.
:(--> back to the main topic.
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WhiteDove
quote:
________________________________________________
...on the 8th Day, GOD made the Harley, & it was Good.
Actually it was a Triumph:
"the roar of Moses' triumph is heard in the hills"
Some scholars think that Jesus drove a Honda but did not like to talk about it.
"For I did not speak of my own Accord...John12:49
But everyone knows he really drove a Jesus
After he accended he left the Honda to the apostles to carpool in
"The Apostles were in one Accord" Acts 5:12
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dmiller
WhiteDove --
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
Too funny! Was just getting ready to sign off for the night, and saw this here. I'll be "chuckling" in my dreams tonight!
:)-->
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dmiller
Do they still make Triumphs??
-->
Been thinking of getting a bike, and Triumph and Norton are the only two I am intereted in.
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simonzelotes
I thought God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden in a Fury....
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WhiteDove
You are correct Simon but he also clearly owns a Pontiac and a Geo.
"Pursue your enemies with your Tempest and terrify them with your Storm" Psalm 83:15
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Weout1200
What did I start?
:)-->
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CKnapp3
Hey, you know, skilled magicians can really convince people of doing things that are not real but appear to be. I would have to have known the person in question for a long long time before I were to be convinced of a miracle.
I only witnessed one so-called miracle. It was the well publicized story of a man who had one of his eyes put out as a child, then through a temendous miracle, sight came bursting from that eye socket, which only had a glass eye. He would show his "miracle" by covering his good eye with a patch, and then with the glass eye removed and an empty socket showing, could evidently read anything that was given to him. Over the years, I thought about that "miracle", and since he did have a good eye, the whole testimony is not free from scrutiny. It's quite possible he used a magician's prop for a patch, which appeared to be sight blocking, but was actually a see-through patch.
Also, VPW, at the '78 ROA, supposedly delivered a baby from polio, or some crippling disorder, and only had the braces to show for it. No acutal miracle was witnessed. Hey, he could have actually bought the brace at a medical suppply store.
I too am very skeptical of any "miracle" that is performed now days.
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dmiller
Me too CKnapp, yet I do not eliminate the fact that they could, and do take place.
Big tent revivals, high profile TV "evangelists", etc, etc, are suspect immediately.
Anything that happens outside of the "spotlight", garnering no attention except to the immediate participants -- those I would choose to not question.
But then again -- if it garnered no attention, I'd never hear of it.
:)-->
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HAPe4me
Well for my two cents, I suspect that there were a few remarkable healings. the power of positive thinking is real (IMHO), and that was not a teaching confined to TWI.
One scenario that did .... me off was when a 16 year old girl in my twig was ministered to for diabetes. She had been doctor diagnosed, and took her daily insulin shots for years. When she was ministered to she was told NOT to return to the doctor for verification as that would be "negative believing". Her mother had a fit over this when the girl refused to go to her regular testing the next month.
When Mom called me, I told her that there was no reason her daughter should not go for her checkup. If indeed she was healed, the tests would reveal it. If she wasn't, then her daughter should return to her daily insulin regimen and enjoy a long life. I caught grief from the person who did the ministering for contradicting their "inspired utterance" I responded tuf schlitz, , there was no way I was gonna take the sentence for recklessly endangering a minor. If God healed, there was nothing the doctor could do to take that away. Her mom appreciated me standing up for her right to have her daughter tested.
I was told that indeed the tests indicated that the girl did not need to take insulin anymore. I admit, since I was not privy to the daily observation of the girl, I do not know whether she was truly healed, this is a third person story once again. HOWEVER....
(next post)
~HAPe4me
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HAPe4me
speaking of "inspired utterance".
I remember the last night of a PFAL class I ran in 1974? in IL. The night before, coming home late and tired, I had missed the last two steps on my basement stairs in the dark, and "broke" my ankle. At least to me it seemed broken, I could put no weight on it, it was swollen, and felt like a bone was out of place. Stupid, (and broke) me, I did not got to a doctor to xray it. I knew that our limb leader (GW), was coming up for the last night of the class, and didn't want to miss showing off my class to him.
Anyway, come session 12, I found ways to sit on a table when I needed to be in front of the class. I made my way to the front when the lights were dim. (I didn't want my one-legged walk to be a hindrance to the students' believing, you know). I completed the class. In those days, the mere presence of a limb leader didn't yet mean that you deferred all "spiritual duties" to them when they were in town, and I wasn't even corps.
However, in the parking lot I asked the limb leader to minister to me. He did so, ministering to me for a broken ankle, and then said, "kick that tire". I felt no change, and gingerly tried to put weight on that foot. Pain was immediate.
GW then yelled at me in that fearsome booming voice "I said, KICK THE TIRE". Somewhat out of fear, (as GW was known to be able to induce) I reared back and kicked the tire. I felt no pain and we went to dinner and the ankle never troubled me again. Not doctor verified, but to me it was very real. The only people there were me and the limb coordinator and I think one other person, maybe D. Pettit? Oh well, to me it was real. Was it healing or was it positive thinking? Who cares?
~HAPe4me
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tomtuttle
George, your questions to the worker were of God. Notice the IMMEDIATE MIRACLE of HEALING when the truth was held forth, even as a question?? Amazing ...
If you wanna grow, you gotta GO!!!
Answer a question with a question.
Each one punch one ...
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Trefor Heywood
They still make Triumph motorcylces here dmiller but they are hard to get new and very expensive.
Nortons alas are always second hand
:(-->
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JustThinking
If God made Harleys BEFORE Eve then Adam would have needed another softail to ride.
Ok, that was bad. Sorry!
JT
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johniam
TWI taught us that if you're in fellowship and you just go about your business then you'll be in the right place at the right time and good things will happen. I have one concrete example of this.
I was living with 2 other guys. It was Sunday. Normally, I didn't read the funnies, but this day for some "reason" I picked up the funnies and read through them.
There was a section in the funnies called 'Our own oddities' in which STL residents could send in weird stories and the paper would write it out and have a cartoon illustrating it. One of the stories was a woman who found a contact lens in her eye that had been there for 4 years.
So I read the funnies and that was that...or was it? Fifteen minutes after I finished reading one of my roommates came home and said he couldn't find one of his contact lenses.
Immediately I knew that God inspired me to read the funnies that day knowing I'd read the bit about the contact lens. So I confidently told the roommate his lens was in his eye. Fits like a hand in a glove. Perfectly logical to me.
He looked and said it wasn't there, but a half hour later he said he looked again and it was there. Is that a miracle or is it just a sign or wonder.
Yes, yes, George, I know, it's a coincidence.
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