Howard Allen, God's greatest layman? <BR><BR>I met Howard a few times and he gave me the creeps. <BR><BR>If I were doing a movie about TWI I would cast William H. Macy as Howard Allen.
Goey, Howard gave me the creeps too... through my eyes, he seemed like some animal in heat... Loved to hug the women, openly remaking on 'women'... and, if you observed his 'EYES', he seemed extra fond of breasts...
very creepy....
It was reported by several folks that Howard slipped "mickies" to young girls and carried them into the back of the motorcoach for Vic...
...Uncle Harry was known as "scary Harry, the furniture king".
Howard was also known to greet the fair sex with a not-so-holy kiss. I was a recipient of one of those once, and silly me, chalked it up to him not knowing how to kiss!
Howard was also known to greet the fair sex with a not-so-holy kiss. I was a recipient of one of those once, and silly me, chalked it up to him not knowing how to kiss!
Nice to meet you, too, Howard.
Ew,
Shaz
How goshdarnflippinridiculous! Gack! I can see the LOOK ON HIS face as he'd enter a room... just scoping it out... Why the heck didn't those wives speak the He11 UP?
Will someone please tell me what a "gift ministry" is? I have always believed that God has given ALL of us gifts...did TWI say that only certain people had gifts and that others did not?
Will someone please tell me what a "gift ministry" is? I have always believed that God has given ALL of us gifts...did TWI say that only certain people had gifts and that others did not?
Here's what twi used.
Ephesians 4:10-12.
" 10He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;"
And in some twi doctrine (pfal proper), all Christians had "Christ in them" and were fantastic.
HOWEVER,
AFTER that,
then you get into the hierarchy, and the gift ministries mentioned there-
Funny, VPW never claimed to be a pastor - to my recollection. I think we all would have seen through THAt lie!
Then he also said that every gift minister would end "manifesting" all the gift ministries at different time - but that one or the most two would be his or her long suit. Except for Paul - vpw said he had 3 gm's
Of course, vpw said that Jesus Christ embodied all the gm's.
Once again Wordwolf aptly and effectively explains twi's position on the gift ministries and shows Veepee as the deceptive snake that he was.
I would add that Veepee got OTHER people to proclaim his "gift ministries" and spiritual superiority to the rank and file...
...For example, some corps grad would be "sharing" with a group of new people and would casually say with a smile on their face, how "Dr. Wierwille (he was not a doctor)...had the ministries of an apostle, prophet and teacher....while the new people would all look at each other with mouths agape, and say..."wowwww"
Wierwille was to the body of Christ what Jack Kevorkian was to medical treatments.
So there was no encouraging people to seek God to find their own "gift ministries" I presume? It seems like to me there was a blatant discouragement of it. That is just odd to me, but I guess it did keep vpw at an elevated level that nobody could attain and served a purpose for him.
Also, did I understand right that there was a hierarchy within the gift ministries? Certain gifts were better than others? Or are you trying to say that the more gift ministries you had/have, the higher in rank you were if you chose to operate in them?
So there was no encouraging people to seek God to find their own "gift ministries" I presume?
[Correct.
And when I asked about them, the answers I got were a bit evasive.
Nobody wanted to admit to not knowing the answers.]
It seems like to me there was a blatant discouragement of it. That is just odd to me, but I guess it did keep vpw at an elevated level that nobody could attain and served a purpose for him.
[Correct and correct.]
Also, did I understand right that there was a hierarchy within the gift ministries? Certain gifts were better than others?
[No, that's not what I meant...]
Or are you trying to say that the more gift ministries you had/have, the higher in rank you were if you chose to operate in them?
[That's kinda what I meant- that vpw supposedly had a bunch, so he was "special" in that way
as well as others. vpw was great at encouraging other people to make claims about him so he
didn't have to. (This gave him "plausible deniability" since nobody could catch him saying
it on record. This still works with some people.)
Let's not forget "Helps and Governments".
IIRC,
the five "gift ministries" were not required for ordination,
and helps and governments WERE included.
That's fine since they're in the Epistles as well.
However, one always heard about "the five gift ministries"
like they were the upper tier of ordination,
and the others were the lower tier.
And forget ever getting a straight answer on who has what.
Howard Allen, God's greatest layman? <BR><BR>I met Howard a few times and he gave me the creeps. <BR><BR>If I were doing a movie about TWI I would cast William H. Macy as Howard Allen.
Goey, I think Brad Dourif would make a great uncle Howard. Even Gary Oldman would play a great Howard.
Seeing that I started this thread over 2 years ago, I thought that I might as well comment further.
Howard's biggest contribution to twi was that he, without ceasing, would pucker up and kiss Vics big behind at every opprotunity. THAT's why Veepee cherished him so much. He was Veepee's sidekick. Sorta like what Tonto was to the Lone Ranger. "Hmmmm, kinosabe, you want me to fetch you another young girl?"...
...The few conversations that I had with Howard, I never thought he was too bright.
I remember Howard honoring our twig with his presence at a hotel room in Boston.
No, it wasn't that sort of thing.
Our local twig was having a small meeting at a hotel room during some weekend-long Way function.
"Special guest" Howard was coming to teach, as a favor to the twig leader "Paul", who bragged on earlier
about acquiring from Howard the enlightenment of how to properly use a shovel.
Howard taught something containing some financial nugget of course. Can't remember anything in particular now. Other than the fact that he appeared distracted the whole time. Kept fiddling with his walky-talky on his belt. Strangest thing I ever did see, yuh.
Recommended Posts
GrouchoMarxJr
It was reported by several folks that Howard slipped "mickies" to young girls and carried them into the back of the motorcoach for Vic...
...Uncle Harry was known as "scary Harry, the furniture king".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
SafariVista
Goey, Howard gave me the creeps too... through my eyes, he seemed like some animal in heat... Loved to hug the women, openly remaking on 'women'... and, if you observed his 'EYES', he seemed extra fond of breasts...
very creepy....
tragically criminal....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Howard was also known to greet the fair sex with a not-so-holy kiss. I was a recipient of one of those once, and silly me, chalked it up to him not knowing how to kiss!
Nice to meet you, too, Howard.
Ew,
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
SafariVista
How goshdarnflippinridiculous! Gack! I can see the LOOK ON HIS face as he'd enter a room... just scoping it out... Why the heck didn't those wives speak the He11 UP?
What a bunch of animals...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Aw gee, the more I hear the less I like.
So glad I'm not there now. (Guess what, I've got a life. And I'm in charge of it.)
Still sorry to hear this about HA, though.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
qtana
Will someone please tell me what a "gift ministry" is? I have always believed that God has given ALL of us gifts...did TWI say that only certain people had gifts and that others did not?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Here's what twi used.
Ephesians 4:10-12.
" 10He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;"
And in some twi doctrine (pfal proper), all Christians had "Christ in them" and were fantastic.
HOWEVER,
AFTER that,
then you get into the hierarchy, and the gift ministries mentioned there-
Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers-
were part of the hierarchy.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
BTW,
those 5 "gift ministries" were mentioned in the abstract,
and there were "reverends" ("ministers") in twi,
but it was nearly impossible to ever pin anyone down on exactly
WHO was WHAT.
Nobody ever seemed to have a SPECIFIC "ministry",
and specific questions were met with a song-and-dance
that answered NOTHING.
The exception, of course, being vpw.
He called HIMSELF "THE Teacher."
And had other people do it.
(It was right in Session 12 of the tapes.)
This suggested he had that "gift ministry."
And he made up the definition of an apostle as
"one who brings new light to his generation. It may be old light, but to the generation
he brings it to-it is new."
at the same time he asserted that
God told him He would teach vpw like people hadn't been taught for 20 centuries if vpw
would teach others.
Does that or does that NOT look like he's written the definition to match his claims of himself?
And he spoke for God to these people, and defined that a prophet is
"one who speaks for God",
and even predicted all sorts of disasters and troubles in the news-
which he got from the John Birch Society and Liberty Lobby.
Isnt the prediction thing the classic definition of "prophet"?
And evangelist wasn't someone who actually evangelizes-
he's someone who gets the other Christians fired up enough about
evangelizing that they go out and do it.
Convenient how this allows him to stay home, not have to
travel on "crusades" like Billy Graham,
and yet coincidentally match his own definition.
And he made lots of little speeches about how much he cared
for "his people" and watched out for them- and arranged
little demonstrations and displays of same-
and in private screamed at them when things were imperfect,
and raped the women.
Meanwhile the shepherd gives his life for the sheep,
and the word for "pastor" comes from the word for "shepherd."
It's almost like vpw was embarassed by Christ's example
of same, and avoided the Gospels for that reason.
So,
depending on how clever vpw was that week,
he left people thinking that he was a minister with all
5 "gift ministries",
like that made him five times the minister everyone else was.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
Funny, VPW never claimed to be a pastor - to my recollection. I think we all would have seen through THAt lie!
Then he also said that every gift minister would end "manifesting" all the gift ministries at different time - but that one or the most two would be his or her long suit. Except for Paul - vpw said he had 3 gm's
Of course, vpw said that Jesus Christ embodied all the gm's.
How nice of him.........
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
Once again Wordwolf aptly and effectively explains twi's position on the gift ministries and shows Veepee as the deceptive snake that he was.
I would add that Veepee got OTHER people to proclaim his "gift ministries" and spiritual superiority to the rank and file...
...For example, some corps grad would be "sharing" with a group of new people and would casually say with a smile on their face, how "Dr. Wierwille (he was not a doctor)...had the ministries of an apostle, prophet and teacher....while the new people would all look at each other with mouths agape, and say..."wowwww"
Wierwille was to the body of Christ what Jack Kevorkian was to medical treatments.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
Good one Groucho!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
qtana
So there was no encouraging people to seek God to find their own "gift ministries" I presume? It seems like to me there was a blatant discouragement of it. That is just odd to me, but I guess it did keep vpw at an elevated level that nobody could attain and served a purpose for him.
Also, did I understand right that there was a hierarchy within the gift ministries? Certain gifts were better than others? Or are you trying to say that the more gift ministries you had/have, the higher in rank you were if you chose to operate in them?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i don't know. i think i was taught you would know your own or others
hierarchy hmmmm yes for sure
there were people "ordained" and i'll be damned if i could ever figure out their "gift ministry"
i think ordination and gift ministry(ies) were synonymous at least for quite a while when i was "in"
and then there was the story about you got ordained only if the area needed it or something
sigh
so many stories so many lies
Link to comment
Share on other sites
krys
Let's not forget "Helps and Governments".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
helps and governments ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
i wonder if i could help if i was in the government ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
[WordWolf in boldface again.]
IIRC,
the five "gift ministries" were not required for ordination,
and helps and governments WERE included.
That's fine since they're in the Epistles as well.
However, one always heard about "the five gift ministries"
like they were the upper tier of ordination,
and the others were the lower tier.
And forget ever getting a straight answer on who has what.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Seth R.
Goey, I think Brad Dourif would make a great uncle Howard. Even Gary Oldman would play a great Howard.
Seth
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
My choice to play Howard would be Steve Buscemi.
If a person did a lot of chair stringing, would that be "Helps"?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Here's another thread on Howard...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
now I see
Thanks for bumping it WordWolf!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
Seeing that I started this thread over 2 years ago, I thought that I might as well comment further.
Howard's biggest contribution to twi was that he, without ceasing, would pucker up and kiss Vics big behind at every opprotunity. THAT's why Veepee cherished him so much. He was Veepee's sidekick. Sorta like what Tonto was to the Lone Ranger. "Hmmmm, kinosabe, you want me to fetch you another young girl?"...
...The few conversations that I had with Howard, I never thought he was too bright.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
I remember Howard honoring our twig with his presence at a hotel room in Boston.
No, it wasn't that sort of thing.
Our local twig was having a small meeting at a hotel room during some weekend-long Way function.
"Special guest" Howard was coming to teach, as a favor to the twig leader "Paul", who bragged on earlier
about acquiring from Howard the enlightenment of how to properly use a shovel.
Howard taught something containing some financial nugget of course. Can't remember anything in particular now. Other than the fact that he appeared distracted the whole time. Kept fiddling with his walky-talky on his belt. Strangest thing I ever did see, yuh.
Danny
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Every time I ever heard Howard teach (live, or on tape),
I remembered that I didn't get to bed early enough the previous night ---
And promptly fell asleep (physically, NOT biblically -- mind you)!
:unsure:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Just for easy reference,
the other 2 Howard threads are
"Howard the Duck"
and "Where is Howard A"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.