quote:i don't think all were intimidated and feared into it. some felt it was a great privilege
i know personally some had nervous breakdowns
and on and on and on
i think the man had serious problems. my experience only is enough for me to know that
i think it's a shame that a minister who professed / taught about love, didn't "live" love on so many occasions. he definitely had a public life and private life that were not consistent
but i'm not into convincing you, oldies
Excathedra, I may not respond to you nearly as much as I could, or should, so it might not look like I'm listening to you; but please know that I do read and consider what you say.
" PFAL isn't God Breathed and Dr. Wierwille never suggested same"
He did too. Remember PFAL '77? The first thing VP said when he came out on stage - in regards to the fact that the decision had been made that the '77 version was not going to replace the '67 version as "THE" class - he stated that "Paul never rewrote Ephesians".
The innuendos were constant that "Doctor" was getting revelation all through all of his teachings. Yes indeed, he was inspired!
Please spare us your revisionist history of WayWorld.
And re:"I think the "every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king" story is falsely applied to Wierwille"
Well how about the "Shunnamite woman" teaching? You know, the story where the "man of God" took up residence with that woman. And the line from that teaching was "What do you think they were DOING all that time in that house together?" The obvious inference being that they must have been having sex. After all a minister HAS TO have sex REAL regularly, doesn't he?
Or how about the dopey "teaching" that the original sin was masterbation? "Yeah, it'd be a real sin to masterbate when there's all of these hot chicks around to hump, wouldn't it Howard?"
And there's numerous others, and you know it.
Wierwille constantly dropped innuendos and hints that sex (especially with a MOG) was just fine. And, after all, if you really felt bad about it ('cause of your spiritual immaturity) you just "thanked" God for forgiveness. How convenient.
The minor item that's always left out of these stories is that there's another party involved in sex. Yeah, THE WOMAN. But then, what does that bitch matter?
Oldies the REASON that you never heard the the teaching parallells between David and vp .... quite frankly ...is simply because you weren`t deemed *spiritual* enough to handle it....for those who were initiated...for those admitted into the oh so secret inner circle, it was the doctrine used to justify their behavior.
The qualifications for initiation into the inner circle....higher spirituality??/ greater spiritual maturity??? ....naw either you were one of vp`s good ol boy buddies on one end of the spectrum...or young beautifull and naive on the other end.....you never qualified on either requirement...thus never were initiated into these greater truths...
maybe this would shed a bit of light regarding balance of power
quote:As physicians are expected not to misuse touch when examining the naked patient, so clergy are expected not to touch inappropriately the vulnerabilities of congregants or counselees. Emerging wisdom says that no emotionally exposed, vulnerable person can give meaningful consent to a sexual relationship with the person to whom she or he has turned to facilitate healing or conversion.
quote:I think the problem why some folks get so emotional is maybe the level of hatred they have toward Wierwille and the BOT.
Like Raf said... what has that got to do with your behavior? I believe we're emotional because we are not accepting of the krap you're throwing out. Happened to too many people for too long.
Nice dodge though. Again, none of these discussions of your behavior would be taking place had you followed Jesus' lead in your above referenced post.
We are to try and be more "Christ like" not more "MOG like"...
What exactly are you asking me to apologize for? For equating Imbus's act with adultery? or for mentioning it here?
Two things, Accuser II:
1. Reminding Imbus that it was adultery was callous and unnecessary, given that she already expressed that this was entirely wrong and inappropriate behavior. There was no need for you to come in and ASK her if she recognized this was adultery. Your question was demeaning, condemnatory and unnecessary and she deserves an apology.
2. On numerous occasions you have stated that she refuses to accept responsibility for her actions. She has accepted responsibility for her actions. You accused her of this, falsely. You owe her an apology.
And let me add a third thing: you're being a stubborn fool, insisting that she said what she didn't say, insisting that she didn't acknowledge what she did, and continuing to act as if you have the moral high ground, just like the Pharisees who dragged the woman caught in adultery before the Lord.
Did Jesus kneel down to her and say, "Now, woman, you do recognize that what you did was adultery, don't you?"
No, he did not do that. And do you know why? He assumed she already knew that.
You could have assumed that Imbus already knew that. Instead you were a condescending jerk.
quote:The innuendos were constant that "Doctor" was getting revelation all through all of his teachings. Yes indeed, he was inspired!
Please spare us your revisionist history of WayWorld.
George, if you're referring to PFAL '77, your analogy doesn't fly. If that was really true, that PFAL 77 was God Breathed and he portrayed it as such, don't you think he would have made it one of those mandatory classes everyone should take? After all, it replaces the old one? As it turned out, I don't think any of us saw the finished product on tape, I know I didn't.
quote:And re:"I think the "every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king" story is falsely applied to Wierwille"
Well how about the "Shunnamite woman" teaching? You know, the story where the "man of God" took up residence with that woman. And the line from that teaching was "What do you think they were DOING all that time in that house together?" The obvious inference being that they must have been having sex. After all a minister HAS TO have sex REAL regularly, doesn't he?
Or how about the dopey "teaching" that the original sin was masterbation? "Yeah, it'd be a real sin to masterbate when there's all of these hot chicks around to hump, wouldn't it Howard?"
And there's numerous others, and you know it.
Wierwille constantly dropped innuendos and hints that sex (especially with a MOG) was just fine. And, after all, if you really felt bad about it ('cause of your spiritual immaturity) you just "thanked" God for forgiveness. How convenient.
The minor item that's always left out of these stories is that there's another party involved in sex. Yeah, THE WOMAN. But then, what does that bitch matter?
geo.
I still disagree that adultery in TWI had its roots from PFAL.
I said I was done with topic and I'm back to give one last input.
" A MAN CONVINCED AGAINS HIS WILL , IS OF THE SAME OPINION STILL"
It is meaningless to me about OM perspective. He IMO, is incapable to go any farther than what he has been taught.
I'v learned by working with amotionally disturbed kids how you can get hooked in a power struggle by words. This is what is happening here. OM is getting some secondary needs meet and you my fine friends are feeding into it. It's not about opinions with him it's abot attention seeking and manipulation. He has obviously got a few folks riled. And he enjoys the Power of being confrontational.
Like the kids I work with, the more you try to reason with them , the more hooked you become.
GOOD JOB, OM you once again, gained control of the post by being what TWI has trained you to be. But I sence you had some serious behavior issues befor TWI and that TWI was a place to comfortably hide or act out on your stuff.
quote:I don't think there are any meaningful parallels between David and Dr. Wierwille. That's your (and others who want to discredit Wierwille and PFAL) mindset fantasy.
Were the alleged abuses all fantasies too? . The fantasy I see is yours that holds your precious PFAL up as the greatest thing since Mom's Apple Pie, TWI-1 up as an abuse free, true movement of God, and VPW up as God's true Man Of God. That's the actuall fantasy.
What you can't seem to grasp is that this is not about folks "wanting" to discredit Wierwille or PFAL. My preference would be that Werwille would have been an upright Man of God and that PFAL would have been what VPW represented it to be. But such is not the case and denying it only adds to the problems.
quote:Dr. Wierwille was not a king and all way corps girls didn't "belong" to him.
Of course he wasn't. But numerous first hand accounts by those close to him say that he acted as if he was a king and acted as if these women were all fair game. But, you choose your fantasy beliefs over the first hand accounts of those who witnessed these thngs - why is that? It is my opinion that your own narcisscism and adoration of VPW and PFAL won't allow you to admit that the things that you hold dear were actually rotten at the core. In other words - you are a big chicken that is all full of himself.
quote:It is reported that Wierwille was a sex addict, who could have had "thousands of women". Geeze. So these thousands of women were all of them intimidated and feared into having sex, with repercussions if they failed to comply with the king? I don't buy it, it's too outlandish.
According to the accounts I have seen and consider reliable, it would suggest that VPW did indeed have issues with sex, but personally I think "sex pervert" fits better than "sex addict", however both may actually fit. As far as "thousands" go, I kind of doubt that. Wierwille was no Wilt Chamberlain. Hundreds is much more likely (or even less). But all it really takes is one, and I personally know of three that I have spoken to first hand and consider reliable. And to be honest, I know of one that I don't actually believe to be true.
What you have really done here Oldies is take this one "outlandish story" and built a strawman around it, while ignoring, denying and belittling the first hand accounts of those in a position to know. You are lying to yourself and helping no one. Your goal seems to be only to preserve your fantasy about VPW and PFAL - no matter the cost.
quote:I think most of these were consentual encounters. And there's some evidence of this, if you read "The Cult That Snapped". Apparently having sex with Wierwille in the large number of cases wasn't an intimidating experience.
I think "some" of them were possibly consensentual where the other person knew it was wrong and did it anyway.
However those encounters where the woman "consented" because VPW, as the Man Of God, (and his assistants) used his/their position of presumed spiritual authority, and a twisting of scriptures to teach and convince these women (who would normally not have done such) that under Grace, sex with a married man (Wierwille) was not only ok, but actually spiritual -- were not consentual at all. This is classic abuse. It is a dispicable abuse of authority and of the women themselves. You can't seem to grasp that. Why ?
And even if some of these women "wanted to do the MOG", as the supposed Man Of God and one of spiritual authority it was his duty to set them straight rather than to take advantage of their error. Of all people VPW should have known and done better. And Oldies, where do you suppose the idea came from that it was ok "to do Mog" anyway? " -- Wouldn't you think that a real MOG would have corrected that error rather than take advantage of it ? -- I do.
Oldies, what I see here with you, is that you hold VPW (the supoposed Man Of God) to a lower standard than the women that looked up to him as the Mog who knew the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century. You freely and openly accuse the women of adultery yet about the best you can do with your hero Wierwille is say "I don't deny it happend".
You are blinded by your adoration of Wierwille and PFAL and almost as dispicable as he was.
quote:You could have assumed that Imbus already knew that. Instead you were a condescending jerk.
Raf, I disagree with your reasons for the apology, and judging from Imbus's response just now, no apology will be forthcoming. Also, I'm getting tired of your namecalling. Please cut that out.
OM, You had no intention of apologizing so stop the BS. I call it the way I see it and you my friend are a unhealthy individual. I'm sad that you will stay stuck in your world of Black and white. I know TWI has hurt a bunch of folks but you my friend, are the most hurt I'v seen on these post. You have a lot to recover from and I know your journey will be very painful. I don't think that you will be capable of going throug it. So I realize you can do no other.
So happy trails my friend. And I really do you find some happiness and comfort in your life.
quote:Were the alleged abuses all fantasies too? . The fantasy I see is yours that holds your precious PFAL up as the greatest thing since Mom's Apple Pie, TWI-1 up as an abuse free, true movement of God, and VPW up as God's true Man Of God. That's the actuall fantasy.
Goey, when did I say that TWI-1 was abuse free? I've consistently said that there was both good and evil going on. Haven't you been listening? or too busy listening to yourself to hear what I've said?
I do still believe that TWI-1 was a true movement of God...at least that's the way I see the good things that resulted. But some folks here like yourself just find that thought repugnant, and that's unfortunate.
Sure, you acknowledge that there was abuse going on.
You just refuse to acknowledge any actual incidents of abuse. Let someone talk about the abuse that was going on, on a personal level, and all you can do is remind that person what a sinner she is. Well done.
quote:I still disagree that adultery in TWI had its roots from PFAL.
I don't recall anyone saying this except you. Of course the root was an evil and calculating heart. The lines were placed in PFAL to give them credence when later referred to in order to help convince folks it was "OK if you could handle it"... and if that didn't work... drug them...
oh... In my opinion...
And if you don't think ol' veepee was that calculating... you're deluding yourself...
(((imbus)) I applaud your willingness to exhibit compassion and understanding with this m
You are a much better person than I...I despise oldies for maligning my sisters in christ...I despise his necessity to make believers look *guily* in order to preserve his distorted perspective of twi.
I think that his willingness to *crucify* us in order to make vpw acceptable is despicable...
YOU have taken the higher road in dealing with a calloused destructive individual...and have my respect.
True. No one said the PFAL teaching was an explicit endorsement of adultery.
The PFAL teaching failed to adequately condemn the adultery. That's been said.
There was an absence of sound teaching on matters of sex, particularly adultery, in TWI. That's been said. Someone got fired just for saying adultery was wrong in every administration. That's been said.
People TWISTED the Bible and the PFAL passage in question in order to justify their misbehavior and adultery. That's been said.
But Oldiesman figures if he didn't twist the teaching, then no one did. That's a foolish position to take, given the weight of the evidence against it.
First of All (((( to all who stood up for me and imbus)))
That said I was thinking about some of the other abuses besides house cleaning and Phone calls. I know that the phone call I got is trivial compared to what went on after the fog years.
But they were the building blocks--
First cookies, then more meeting, then more required meetings, then more required activities, (cleaning, cooking, baby sitting), then more scrutiny into private lives, then yelling sessions, then...
You get the idea
SAme with the sex...
VPW's predilication for young girls not his wife,
then the upper echelons joining in into a expanding circle, then pediophile twig coordinators.. then on to LCM....
THe classic bully/abuser format
First the yelling, then the emotional abuse, then bad acts, escalting as they got away with the one before....
quote:I do still believe that TWI-1 was a true movement of God...at least that's the way I see the good things that resulted. But some folks here like yourself just find that thought repugnant, and that's unfortunate.
Oldies, you are the most thick-headed person I have ever come in contact with.
How many times do I have have to tell you that I think that good things came as a result of TWI? How many times do you have to hear that I think PFAL had some very good stuff in it? How hard is is to understand that I can acknowledge the good and yet still see the corruption. The fact that I saw corruption in TWI-1 from the get go, does not mean I find it "repugnant" that good resulted. God and his Word were bigger than the corruption. I give God the credit - not VPW or TWI. Do you have a problem with that? Why keep trying to paint the false picture? You are wearing it out.
Now, why didn't you address the other parts of my post? - Especially the paragraphs about consent and doing the MOG.
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oldiesman
Excathedra, I may not respond to you nearly as much as I could, or should, so it might not look like I'm listening to you; but please know that I do read and consider what you say.
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George Aar
OM,
" PFAL isn't God Breathed and Dr. Wierwille never suggested same"
He did too. Remember PFAL '77? The first thing VP said when he came out on stage - in regards to the fact that the decision had been made that the '77 version was not going to replace the '67 version as "THE" class - he stated that "Paul never rewrote Ephesians".
The innuendos were constant that "Doctor" was getting revelation all through all of his teachings. Yes indeed, he was inspired!
Please spare us your revisionist history of WayWorld.
And re:"I think the "every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king" story is falsely applied to Wierwille"
Well how about the "Shunnamite woman" teaching? You know, the story where the "man of God" took up residence with that woman. And the line from that teaching was "What do you think they were DOING all that time in that house together?" The obvious inference being that they must have been having sex. After all a minister HAS TO have sex REAL regularly, doesn't he?
Or how about the dopey "teaching" that the original sin was masterbation? "Yeah, it'd be a real sin to masterbate when there's all of these hot chicks around to hump, wouldn't it Howard?"
And there's numerous others, and you know it.
Wierwille constantly dropped innuendos and hints that sex (especially with a MOG) was just fine. And, after all, if you really felt bad about it ('cause of your spiritual immaturity) you just "thanked" God for forgiveness. How convenient.
The minor item that's always left out of these stories is that there's another party involved in sex. Yeah, THE WOMAN. But then, what does that bitch matter?
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rascal
Oldies the REASON that you never heard the the teaching parallells between David and vp .... quite frankly ...is simply because you weren`t deemed *spiritual* enough to handle it....for those who were initiated...for those admitted into the oh so secret inner circle, it was the doctrine used to justify their behavior.
The qualifications for initiation into the inner circle....higher spirituality??/ greater spiritual maturity??? ....naw either you were one of vp`s good ol boy buddies on one end of the spectrum...or young beautifull and naive on the other end.....you never qualified on either requirement...thus never were initiated into these greater truths...
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oldiesman
Watered Garden,
I already agree with what you're saying so I'm not sure what you're point is. PFAL isn't 100% truth. It has errors.
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excathedra
maybe this would shed a bit of light regarding balance of power
the article-
http://www.votf.org/papers/AbuseofPowerasJusticeIssue.html
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oldiesman
Raf,
What exactly are you asking me to apologize for? For equating Imbus's act with adultery? or for mentioning it here?
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excathedra
i know, oldies, thank you
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Tom Strange
Nice dodge though. Again, none of these discussions of your behavior would be taking place had you followed Jesus' lead in your above referenced post.
We are to try and be more "Christ like" not more "MOG like"...
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Raf
Two things, Accuser II:
1. Reminding Imbus that it was adultery was callous and unnecessary, given that she already expressed that this was entirely wrong and inappropriate behavior. There was no need for you to come in and ASK her if she recognized this was adultery. Your question was demeaning, condemnatory and unnecessary and she deserves an apology.
2. On numerous occasions you have stated that she refuses to accept responsibility for her actions. She has accepted responsibility for her actions. You accused her of this, falsely. You owe her an apology.
And let me add a third thing: you're being a stubborn fool, insisting that she said what she didn't say, insisting that she didn't acknowledge what she did, and continuing to act as if you have the moral high ground, just like the Pharisees who dragged the woman caught in adultery before the Lord.
Did Jesus kneel down to her and say, "Now, woman, you do recognize that what you did was adultery, don't you?"
No, he did not do that. And do you know why? He assumed she already knew that.
You could have assumed that Imbus already knew that. Instead you were a condescending jerk.
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oldiesman
George, if you're referring to PFAL '77, your analogy doesn't fly. If that was really true, that PFAL 77 was God Breathed and he portrayed it as such, don't you think he would have made it one of those mandatory classes everyone should take? After all, it replaces the old one? As it turned out, I don't think any of us saw the finished product on tape, I know I didn't.
I still disagree that adultery in TWI had its roots from PFAL.
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imbus
I said I was done with topic and I'm back to give one last input.
" A MAN CONVINCED AGAINS HIS WILL , IS OF THE SAME OPINION STILL"
It is meaningless to me about OM perspective. He IMO, is incapable to go any farther than what he has been taught.
I'v learned by working with amotionally disturbed kids how you can get hooked in a power struggle by words. This is what is happening here. OM is getting some secondary needs meet and you my fine friends are feeding into it. It's not about opinions with him it's abot attention seeking and manipulation. He has obviously got a few folks riled. And he enjoys the Power of being confrontational.
Like the kids I work with, the more you try to reason with them , the more hooked you become.
GOOD JOB, OM you once again, gained control of the post by being what TWI has trained you to be. But I sence you had some serious behavior issues befor TWI and that TWI was a place to comfortably hide or act out on your stuff.
BRAVO OM,BRAVO!
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Goey
Oldies,
Were the alleged abuses all fantasies too? . The fantasy I see is yours that holds your precious PFAL up as the greatest thing since Mom's Apple Pie, TWI-1 up as an abuse free, true movement of God, and VPW up as God's true Man Of God. That's the actuall fantasy.What you can't seem to grasp is that this is not about folks "wanting" to discredit Wierwille or PFAL. My preference would be that Werwille would have been an upright Man of God and that PFAL would have been what VPW represented it to be. But such is not the case and denying it only adds to the problems.
Of course he wasn't. But numerous first hand accounts by those close to him say that he acted as if he was a king and acted as if these women were all fair game. But, you choose your fantasy beliefs over the first hand accounts of those who witnessed these thngs - why is that? It is my opinion that your own narcisscism and adoration of VPW and PFAL won't allow you to admit that the things that you hold dear were actually rotten at the core. In other words - you are a big chicken that is all full of himself.According to the accounts I have seen and consider reliable, it would suggest that VPW did indeed have issues with sex, but personally I think "sex pervert" fits better than "sex addict", however both may actually fit. As far as "thousands" go, I kind of doubt that. Wierwille was no Wilt Chamberlain. Hundreds is much more likely (or even less). But all it really takes is one, and I personally know of three that I have spoken to first hand and consider reliable. And to be honest, I know of one that I don't actually believe to be true.
What you have really done here Oldies is take this one "outlandish story" and built a strawman around it, while ignoring, denying and belittling the first hand accounts of those in a position to know. You are lying to yourself and helping no one. Your goal seems to be only to preserve your fantasy about VPW and PFAL - no matter the cost.
I think "some" of them were possibly consensentual where the other person knew it was wrong and did it anyway.However those encounters where the woman "consented" because VPW, as the Man Of God, (and his assistants) used his/their position of presumed spiritual authority, and a twisting of scriptures to teach and convince these women (who would normally not have done such) that under Grace, sex with a married man (Wierwille) was not only ok, but actually spiritual -- were not consentual at all. This is classic abuse. It is a dispicable abuse of authority and of the women themselves. You can't seem to grasp that. Why ?
And even if some of these women "wanted to do the MOG", as the supposed Man Of God and one of spiritual authority it was his duty to set them straight rather than to take advantage of their error. Of all people VPW should have known and done better. And Oldies, where do you suppose the idea came from that it was ok "to do Mog" anyway? " -- Wouldn't you think that a real MOG would have corrected that error rather than take advantage of it ? -- I do.
Oldies, what I see here with you, is that you hold VPW (the supoposed Man Of God) to a lower standard than the women that looked up to him as the Mog who knew the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century. You freely and openly accuse the women of adultery yet about the best you can do with your hero Wierwille is say "I don't deny it happend".
You are blinded by your adoration of Wierwille and PFAL and almost as dispicable as he was.
.
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oldiesman
Raf, I disagree with your reasons for the apology, and judging from Imbus's response just now, no apology will be forthcoming. Also, I'm getting tired of your namecalling. Please cut that out.
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Raf
No apology will be forthcoming, Oldiesman.
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imbus
OM, You had no intention of apologizing so stop the BS. I call it the way I see it and you my friend are a unhealthy individual. I'm sad that you will stay stuck in your world of Black and white. I know TWI has hurt a bunch of folks but you my friend, are the most hurt I'v seen on these post. You have a lot to recover from and I know your journey will be very painful. I don't think that you will be capable of going throug it. So I realize you can do no other.
So happy trails my friend. And I really do you find some happiness and comfort in your life.
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excathedra
yes goey thanks for the reminder. wierwille certainly did have a responsibility even if some of his followers were wide-eyed adoring fans
yuck
sorry yuck
double yuck
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oldiesman
Goey, when did I say that TWI-1 was abuse free? I've consistently said that there was both good and evil going on. Haven't you been listening? or too busy listening to yourself to hear what I've said?
I do still believe that TWI-1 was a true movement of God...at least that's the way I see the good things that resulted. But some folks here like yourself just find that thought repugnant, and that's unfortunate.
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Raf
Sure, you acknowledge that there was abuse going on.
You just refuse to acknowledge any actual incidents of abuse. Let someone talk about the abuse that was going on, on a personal level, and all you can do is remind that person what a sinner she is. Well done.
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Tom Strange
oh... In my opinion...
And if you don't think ol' veepee was that calculating... you're deluding yourself...
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rascal
(((imbus)) I applaud your willingness to exhibit compassion and understanding with this m
You are a much better person than I...I despise oldies for maligning my sisters in christ...I despise his necessity to make believers look *guily* in order to preserve his distorted perspective of twi.
I think that his willingness to *crucify* us in order to make vpw acceptable is despicable...
YOU have taken the higher road in dealing with a calloused destructive individual...and have my respect.
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Raf
True. No one said the PFAL teaching was an explicit endorsement of adultery.
The PFAL teaching failed to adequately condemn the adultery. That's been said.
There was an absence of sound teaching on matters of sex, particularly adultery, in TWI. That's been said. Someone got fired just for saying adultery was wrong in every administration. That's been said.
People TWISTED the Bible and the PFAL passage in question in order to justify their misbehavior and adultery. That's been said.
But Oldiesman figures if he didn't twist the teaching, then no one did. That's a foolish position to take, given the weight of the evidence against it.
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templelady
First of All (((( to all who stood up for me and imbus)))
That said I was thinking about some of the other abuses besides house cleaning and Phone calls. I know that the phone call I got is trivial compared to what went on after the fog years.
But they were the building blocks--
First cookies, then more meeting, then more required meetings, then more required activities, (cleaning, cooking, baby sitting), then more scrutiny into private lives, then yelling sessions, then...
You get the idea
SAme with the sex...
VPW's predilication for young girls not his wife,
then the upper echelons joining in into a expanding circle, then pediophile twig coordinators.. then on to LCM....
THe classic bully/abuser format
First the yelling, then the emotional abuse, then bad acts, escalting as they got away with the one before....
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Watered Garden
What Jesus said to the Phariseeswas "Let him among you who is without sin cast the first stone."
She knew she was wrong. What she needed was forgiveness and direction. Jesus met her need, on the spot.
What an example of God's forgiving grace and love! I think that's what I'd rather focus on from here on out.
WG
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Goey
Oldies,
Oldies, you are the most thick-headed person I have ever come in contact with.
How many times do I have have to tell you that I think that good things came as a result of TWI? How many times do you have to hear that I think PFAL had some very good stuff in it? How hard is is to understand that I can acknowledge the good and yet still see the corruption. The fact that I saw corruption in TWI-1 from the get go, does not mean I find it "repugnant" that good resulted. God and his Word were bigger than the corruption. I give God the credit - not VPW or TWI. Do you have a problem with that? Why keep trying to paint the false picture? You are wearing it out.
Now, why didn't you address the other parts of my post? - Especially the paragraphs about consent and doing the MOG.
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