... And take a fresh look at PFAL and see how vpw uses most of it to tear at the word to pump up his own (wink, wink) conclusions. ...
I'm taking fresh looks all the time, but making the giant leap that one or two sentences in PFAL, where he's not talking about himself at all, is the root cause of adultery in TWI, is something I don't assent to. You may believe it if you wish, it's your choice.
quote:He sets himself up as the man of God, receives adulation and glory from his minions and then returns the favor by taking advantage of it.
Still haven't made the connection with that and PFAL, but I suppose theories and accusations about it will continue to fly.
quote:Well, oldiesman, do you think the "every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king" scenario was actually abused by people in TWI, or do you think the twisting of that story is an invention of the gscafe?
I think the "every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king" story is falsely applied to Wierwille, principally here at GS Cafe. There are other analogies that may be used, and I'm sure will be. But using that specific one, delightfully and gleefully with razor sharp precision brought forth from PFAL by some, is a giant fanciful leap to specifically degrade PFAL.
I discussed this theory with a couple of old time twiggies last nite, and they thought it was a below-the-belt misapplication as I do. Yes, I think this is a GS propogation, much like the "Christ is Absent" false accusation. Repeat it long enough and loud enough and some will believe.
quote: Repeat it long enough and loud enough and some will believe.
Does this also apply to repeating the false charge that people are saying that PFAL leads to blow jobs? Apparently it does, as you still believe that fallacy despite the *overwhelming* evidence that that charge wasn't brought up at all. There was a connection between the David/Bathsheba line about "every woman belonging to the king" and it being used as additional fodder for justification of the sexual abuse, but that's as far as that PFAL-related link went. And there is no way to interpret that as being similar, let alone identical, to "PFAL leads to blow jobs". At all!
So just be a man about it, set aside your 'gotta protect PFAL against the infidels at all costs' stubbornness for 15 minutes, and think about what's *really* being communicated, ... even if it runs the risk of challenging VPW and PFAL.
I said it before, and I'll say it again: If PFAL and VPW is the best/only thing God can do to illustrate the truth, then that deity is pathetic, and isn't worth the time of day, ... let alone worship and praise.
degrade - to reduce in grade, rank, or status; demote
**
"I think the "every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king" story is falsely applied to Wierwille, principally here at GS Cafe."
nope, not falsely applied to him. and not principally here at GS Cafe..... because he's not here anymore.... it was principally true when he was alive....
quote: ... If Oldies hadn't been taught to be an abuser, he might have some compassion and empathy for imbus and what she has been through. He was obviously taught abuse somewhere along the way, or he wouldn't be so unyielding in his opinions.
Hope, if having a strong opinion on an issue and being unyielding about it is evidence of abuse, well, I think most of us can share in that. Regarding having compassion and empathy, I think all of us could use more all the time.
quote:Oldies has done what another poster does with threads that criticize TWI too much for their taste - he has made the topic revolve around him.
Hope, you mentioned this more than once. What do you think happens when opinions differ? The differing opinions are discussed. If folks don't think much of the opinions, they shouldn't post. They shouldn't read what I have to say. I think maybe you just want me to be quiet?
quote:He will not change his mind about what he believes short of handwriting on the wall. No matter how it is said, no matter how much people try to reason with him - he won't believe what all of us have been trying to relate to him. Why? Because he was taught how to abuse others from TWI ...
I won't believe what everyone is trying to relate because I was taught to abuse others? Please make some sense. I am always open to logic and reason, and have listened to folks, without calling them names.
Ya know...I remember my lc in al....I remember him screaming at me....(I still had a couple of animals and was app corpes)...He bellowed and screamed for 5 miniutes straight ...I am talking aboutbellowing at the top of your lungs ... red faced.. vein popping ...spittle flying rage.... I just cowered...when he was done....I meekly thanked him for *loving* me enough to help me be a better believer....
It amazes me how we were conditioned to believe that when leadership acted outragiously this way, it was our fault...that we messed up and deserved it....that they really cared for us....only wanted what was best for us....etc.
I honestly believed that this was acceptable behavior....there wasn`t anything that I wouldn`t do to avoid being yelledat/loved by leaders....everything that was suggested, i complied with....like it or not...agree with it or not in order to avoid being *loved* again...a regular little robot programmed to obey at all cost....cause THES guys had the *connection* with God...THESE guys were the ones god told what he wanted me to do...THESE guys loved us and wanted only to help us be the best christian believers ....
Sounds good cept it was some of these same fine folks, many times that were abusive demanding jerks that existed only to serve themselves and feed the maw of the monster twi...
Certainly not all leaders...I met many fine selfless folks who DID serve God and care for the people in their charge....but enough so that the conditioning for instant cowering obediance was there whether the leader had our best interests at heart or not....
I see you have no intention of admitting that what LEADerSHIP did to my CHILDren WAS TOTally wrong on their part---
I suspect that maybe you are closer to this whole isssue in AK that you want to admit --there is something about your phraseolgy the way you write that is vaguely familier--
I amy be wrong but then again....
Anyway I now know you for what you are --someone who must blame the victims, even children, to cover and excuse your own indiscretions --just how far up in leadership were you?
MO
MO, you've got me pegged all wrong, and I really don't know what you're talking about. I never suggested your children weren't abused or that the leadership was correct. I think your letting your mind wander into fantasy land.
You have said EXACTLY that oldies...more than one time more than one way....n you ALSO tried to say that cool and I were liars till mo backed us up...
You attempted to characterise excathedra a liar untill others backed her up too...
You declared me untruthfull about coersion into abotion as well...
You accuse folks on the child abuse thread of overexagerating and tried to minimalise the events on the child abuse thread.....
You accuse ..you call us liars....you blame us ....same mo since you started posting here.......
Again this thread has been turned into a *blame* the one hurt....and detract from the real issue of the destructive sob`s that destroyed folks lives...
Folks are beginning to see you for what you really are oldies...You aren`t here for any other purpose other than to cruise these threads waiting for a chance to discredit posters and make twi look good.. You exhibit no caring...no compassion...no desire for an accurate accounting of our lives and experiences in twi...
I don`t understand your agenda....I just know that it has nothing to do with caring about your brothers and sisters in christ...
quote:And you do owe Imbus an apology. Frankly, if this was my message board, your a** would be banned until you did make that apology --- publically. But hey, that's me.
Garth, I firmly believe it's to Pawtucket's credit that folks like Mike and me haven't been banned. Free thought and speech is the best, otherwise we have another cult-like group, don't we? "Let's all think alike" is that really what you want?
Yeah oldies..I am sure that you value that free speach...it is what enables you to accuse...attempt to discredit and generally treat like **** anyone who attempts to reveal twi`s dark evil secrets....
Still haven't seen book, chapter and verse on "all the women of the kingdom belonged to the king." I'm not talkin' about PFAL book, chapter, and verse. I'm talking about The Bible, book chapter and verse.
Put up or shut up, please.
PFAL is NOT synonymous with the Bible.
Oh, what about the woman taken in adultery who was brought before Jesus? Did He condemn her?
quote:Hope, you mentioned this more than once. What do you think happens when opinions differ? The differing opinions are discussed. If folks don't think much of the opinions, they shouldn't post. They shouldn't read what I have to say. I think maybe you just want me to be quiet?
"Differing opinions" is one thing OM, that's not what gets people so disgusted with you.
AND YEAH, I DO JUST WANT YOU TO BE QUIET... WHEN IT COMES TO SLINGING YOUR VILE BLAME B.S. AROUND. AND SO DO A LOT OF OTHERS.
How many times and how many ways do you want us to say it?
Opinions=fine... the rest of your krap=not fine.
quote:Garth, I firmly believe it's to Pawtucket's credit that folks like Mike and me haven't been banned. Free thought and speech is the best, otherwise we have another cult-like group, don't we? "Let's all think alike" is that really what you want?
I for one sincerely do wish you'd quit using this as an excuse for your accusatory B.S. Your "free speech" rights STOP when your words start HURTING others.
quote:Wierwille was the MOG and his Kingdom was TWI. His had a inner circle that knew of his adultery but were silent - some followed his adulterous lead. His female subjects were typically Way Corps.
I don't think there are any meaningful parallels between David and Dr. Wierwille. That's your (and others who want to discredit Wierwille and PFAL) mindset fantasy. Dr. Wierwille was not a king and all way corps girls didn't "belong" to him. It is reported that Wierwille was a sex addict, who could have had "thousands of women". Geeze. So these thousands of women were all of them intimidated and feared into having sex, with repercussions if they failed to comply with the king? I don't buy it, it's too outlandish. I think most of these were consentual encounters. And there's some evidence of this, if you read "The Cult That Snapped". Apparently having sex with Wierwille in the large number of cases wasn't an intimidating experience. I'm not denying it never happened (please don't accuse me of that) just saying it wasn't the norm. It really doesn't make sense, otherwise I think you'd have many many more stories of abuse out there, and not just now either -- I think you would have heard it back then.
quote: Still haven't seen book, chapter and verse on "all the women of the kingdom belonged to the king." I'm not talkin' about PFAL book, chapter, and verse. I'm talking about The Bible, book chapter and verse.
Put up or shut up, please.
PFAL is NOT synonymous with the Bible.
Oh, what about the woman taken in adultery who was brought before Jesus? Did He condemn her?
Watered Garden, I agree with you, PFAL isn't God Breathed and Dr. Wierwille never suggested same.
Regarding the woman caught in adultery, Jesus didn't condemn the woman. But he did call her action "sin". He said: "Go and sin no more".
i don't think all were intimidated and feared into it. some felt it was a great privilege
i know personally some had nervous breakdowns
and on and on and on
i think the man had serious problems. my experience only is enough for me to know that
i think it's a shame that a minister who professed / taught about love, didn't "live" love on so many occasions. he definitely had a public life and private life that were not consistent
quote:I for one sincerely do wish you'd quit using this as an excuse for your accusatory B.S. Your "free speech" rights STOP when your words start HURTING others.
Tom, there's plenty of accusatory b.s. to go around, and there have been plenty of things said that hurt me, as well.
I think the problem why some folks get so emotional is maybe the level of hatred they have toward Wierwille and the BOT. Some folks just can't tolerate differing opinions. Therefore challenging very strong hateful emotions can be hurtful to those who harbor them. It happens to me as well sometimes.
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oldiesman
def 59
I'm taking fresh looks all the time, but making the giant leap that one or two sentences in PFAL, where he's not talking about himself at all, is the root cause of adultery in TWI, is something I don't assent to. You may believe it if you wish, it's your choice.
Still haven't made the connection with that and PFAL, but I suppose theories and accusations about it will continue to fly.
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def59
OM
Believe what you want.
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oldiesman
Raf:
I think the "every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king" story is falsely applied to Wierwille, principally here at GS Cafe. There are other analogies that may be used, and I'm sure will be. But using that specific one, delightfully and gleefully with razor sharp precision brought forth from PFAL by some, is a giant fanciful leap to specifically degrade PFAL.
I discussed this theory with a couple of old time twiggies last nite, and they thought it was a below-the-belt misapplication as I do. Yes, I think this is a GS propogation, much like the "Christ is Absent" false accusation. Repeat it long enough and loud enough and some will believe.
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Steve!
om -
(*)
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GarthP2000
OM,
Does this also apply to repeating the false charge that people are saying that PFAL leads to blow jobs? Apparently it does, as you still believe that fallacy despite the *overwhelming* evidence that that charge wasn't brought up at all. There was a connection between the David/Bathsheba line about "every woman belonging to the king" and it being used as additional fodder for justification of the sexual abuse, but that's as far as that PFAL-related link went. And there is no way to interpret that as being similar, let alone identical, to "PFAL leads to blow jobs". At all!
So just be a man about it, set aside your 'gotta protect PFAL against the infidels at all costs' stubbornness for 15 minutes, and think about what's *really* being communicated, ... even if it runs the risk of challenging VPW and PFAL.
I said it before, and I'll say it again: If PFAL and VPW is the best/only thing God can do to illustrate the truth, then that deity is pathetic, and isn't worth the time of day, ... let alone worship and praise.
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excathedra
it's specifically to degrade the man of god
degrade - to reduce in grade, rank, or status; demote
**
"I think the "every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king" story is falsely applied to Wierwille, principally here at GS Cafe."
nope, not falsely applied to him. and not principally here at GS Cafe..... because he's not here anymore.... it was principally true when he was alive....
you weren't there oldies
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oldiesman
Hope, if having a strong opinion on an issue and being unyielding about it is evidence of abuse, well, I think most of us can share in that. Regarding having compassion and empathy, I think all of us could use more all the time.
Hope, you mentioned this more than once. What do you think happens when opinions differ? The differing opinions are discussed. If folks don't think much of the opinions, they shouldn't post. They shouldn't read what I have to say. I think maybe you just want me to be quiet?
I won't believe what everyone is trying to relate because I was taught to abuse others? Please make some sense. I am always open to logic and reason, and have listened to folks, without calling them names.
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rascal
Ya know...I remember my lc in al....I remember him screaming at me....(I still had a couple of animals and was app corpes)...He bellowed and screamed for 5 miniutes straight ...I am talking aboutbellowing at the top of your lungs ... red faced.. vein popping ...spittle flying rage.... I just cowered...when he was done....I meekly thanked him for *loving* me enough to help me be a better believer....
It amazes me how we were conditioned to believe that when leadership acted outragiously this way, it was our fault...that we messed up and deserved it....that they really cared for us....only wanted what was best for us....etc.
I honestly believed that this was acceptable behavior....there wasn`t anything that I wouldn`t do to avoid being yelledat/loved by leaders....everything that was suggested, i complied with....like it or not...agree with it or not in order to avoid being *loved* again...a regular little robot programmed to obey at all cost....cause THES guys had the *connection* with God...THESE guys were the ones god told what he wanted me to do...THESE guys loved us and wanted only to help us be the best christian believers ....
Sounds good cept it was some of these same fine folks, many times that were abusive demanding jerks that existed only to serve themselves and feed the maw of the monster twi...
Certainly not all leaders...I met many fine selfless folks who DID serve God and care for the people in their charge....but enough so that the conditioning for instant cowering obediance was there whether the leader had our best interests at heart or not....
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excathedra
in my humble opinion, some of what you said to imbus and mo and cool was worse than name calling
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oldiesman
MO, you've got me pegged all wrong, and I really don't know what you're talking about. I never suggested your children weren't abused or that the leadership was correct. I think your letting your mind wander into fantasy land.
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rascal
You have said EXACTLY that oldies...more than one time more than one way....n you ALSO tried to say that cool and I were liars till mo backed us up...
You attempted to characterise excathedra a liar untill others backed her up too...
You declared me untruthfull about coersion into abotion as well...
You accuse folks on the child abuse thread of overexagerating and tried to minimalise the events on the child abuse thread.....
You accuse ..you call us liars....you blame us ....same mo since you started posting here.......
Again this thread has been turned into a *blame* the one hurt....and detract from the real issue of the destructive sob`s that destroyed folks lives...
Folks are beginning to see you for what you really are oldies...You aren`t here for any other purpose other than to cruise these threads waiting for a chance to discredit posters and make twi look good.. You exhibit no caring...no compassion...no desire for an accurate accounting of our lives and experiences in twi...
I don`t understand your agenda....I just know that it has nothing to do with caring about your brothers and sisters in christ...
You are not a nice man oldies...
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oldiesman
Garth:
Garth, I firmly believe it's to Pawtucket's credit that folks like Mike and me haven't been banned. Free thought and speech is the best, otherwise we have another cult-like group, don't we? "Let's all think alike" is that really what you want?
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rascal
Yeah oldies..I am sure that you value that free speach...it is what enables you to accuse...attempt to discredit and generally treat like **** anyone who attempts to reveal twi`s dark evil secrets....
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Watered Garden
Still haven't seen book, chapter and verse on "all the women of the kingdom belonged to the king." I'm not talkin' about PFAL book, chapter, and verse. I'm talking about The Bible, book chapter and verse.
Put up or shut up, please.
PFAL is NOT synonymous with the Bible.
Oh, what about the woman taken in adultery who was brought before Jesus? Did He condemn her?
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Zixar
Oddly, no. Strange, since Jesus had to know it was all HER fault...
-->
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Tom Strange
OM said:
"Differing opinions" is one thing OM, that's not what gets people so disgusted with you.AND YEAH, I DO JUST WANT YOU TO BE QUIET... WHEN IT COMES TO SLINGING YOUR VILE BLAME B.S. AROUND. AND SO DO A LOT OF OTHERS.
How many times and how many ways do you want us to say it?
Opinions=fine... the rest of your krap=not fine.
I for one sincerely do wish you'd quit using this as an excuse for your accusatory B.S. Your "free speech" rights STOP when your words start HURTING others.Link to comment
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oldiesman
Goey
I don't think there are any meaningful parallels between David and Dr. Wierwille. That's your (and others who want to discredit Wierwille and PFAL) mindset fantasy. Dr. Wierwille was not a king and all way corps girls didn't "belong" to him. It is reported that Wierwille was a sex addict, who could have had "thousands of women". Geeze. So these thousands of women were all of them intimidated and feared into having sex, with repercussions if they failed to comply with the king? I don't buy it, it's too outlandish. I think most of these were consentual encounters. And there's some evidence of this, if you read "The Cult That Snapped". Apparently having sex with Wierwille in the large number of cases wasn't an intimidating experience. I'm not denying it never happened (please don't accuse me of that) just saying it wasn't the norm. It really doesn't make sense, otherwise I think you'd have many many more stories of abuse out there, and not just now either -- I think you would have heard it back then.
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Zixar
How many women does a preacher get to rape before you start calling him a rapist?
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oldiesman
Watered Garden, I agree with you, PFAL isn't God Breathed and Dr. Wierwille never suggested same.
Regarding the woman caught in adultery, Jesus didn't condemn the woman. But he did call her action "sin". He said: "Go and sin no more".
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excathedra
i don't think all were intimidated and feared into it. some felt it was a great privilege
i know personally some had nervous breakdowns
and on and on and on
i think the man had serious problems. my experience only is enough for me to know that
i think it's a shame that a minister who professed / taught about love, didn't "live" love on so many occasions. he definitely had a public life and private life that were not consistent
but i'm not into convincing you, oldies
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Tom Strange
The fact that you are unable or unwilling to see that SUPPORTS the contention that you were taught to be an abuser as well.
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Raf
Oldiesman,
I want you to read this very very carefully.
No one said what Imbus did was not sin - least of all Imbus. No one needed your help identifying sin. You were out of line. Apologize already.
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oldiesman
Tom, there's plenty of accusatory b.s. to go around, and there have been plenty of things said that hurt me, as well.
I think the problem why some folks get so emotional is maybe the level of hatred they have toward Wierwille and the BOT. Some folks just can't tolerate differing opinions. Therefore challenging very strong hateful emotions can be hurtful to those who harbor them. It happens to me as well sometimes.
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Watered Garden
Still waiting for book, chapter and verse on "all of the women in the kingdom belong to the king." Or an admission that it isn't in there.
See VPW said that in PFAL. Could he have (gasp) been WRONG?
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